G'day all;

I had another fine loaf of 100% SD ruined before I could eat more than a few
slices of it by our dry climate. In the old days (pre-low carb) someone
(that mostly being me!) would gobble it right up, so storing it for a few
days was a non-issue. Even though I've been reading here for many years, I
still seem to have a hole in this portion of my understanding of bread.

I've done a Google search on past posts about this subject, looking for some
enlightenment. As you might expect, most of the 5,800 or so responses I
found was something like: "Do it this way! No! Your way sux, do it the
other way. No it doesn't! Yes it does...", and so on. For too many years
America has been the land of "wonder bread" wrapped in plastic. Obviously,
for those of us reading and posting here, we've moved into the world of
'real' breads. But none of us brought along the knowledge on how to
properly care for 'real' bread once it's baked (at least speaking for
myself, that is).

In my experience I found that leaving a freshly baked loaf out for at least
a day seems to "cure" it about right. But leave it out any longer and the
words "hockey puck" come to mind. Anybody have any good ideas on how to
store a loaf or two of bread for let's say up to a week? I tried heavy
Kraft paper. That didn't make the cut. The loaf was hard enough that the
ducks wouldn't even eat it in 4-days (15-20% humidity & a 95F day aren't
conducive to long bread life). I've tried waxed papers. But if you wrap it
tightly, it's no better than plastic. Wrap it loosely, and the only
difference between it and Kraft paper is the cost. Is there such a thing as
a finely (tightly) woven bag perhaps? Maybe a leather carry pouch? Since
we need to be able to put/use/get this container into an RV, please don't
suggest a "bread-box!"

I was wondering if anyone had ever used a kind of "Ziploc" bag that had a
sea of tiny holes punched into it? I don't recall the name--can't seem to
find it on any shelves, either--but I believe it was touted to be "best" for
storing veggies. It would seem that a finely perforated plastic bag would
solve this problem just about right. Tyvek, perhaps?

I was hoping that maybe some of our European readership would chime in on
this matter? After all, the notion of 'real' bread being a part of their
daily staple is a far more ingrained event than our instant bread sealed in
plastic culture. I mean, after all, 200 years ago folks baked once a week
or so...they must have had a way to store their bread so that it would last
a week anyway. I can bake their bread, now. I just haven't managed to
figure out quite how they managed to keep it...

Regards to all,
Dusty
San Jose, Ca.
--
Remove STORE to reply

At 02:43 PM 7/6/2004, "Dusty" > wrote:
>G'day all;
>
>I had another fine loaf of 100% SD ruined before I could eat more than a few
>slices of it by our dry climate. In the old days (pre-low carb)

(excuse me - IMO, that low carb frenzy is <censored> - seems to me that
folks in US need some kind of induced stimulation by the means of a fad to
enjoy their life) - I had to say that since you really seem to be on it;-)
I suspected this to be the case for a long time and recently, after
watching (not having done so for over 6 years) a US basketball game (LA
Lakers ./. Detroit Pistons) on TV with all the quick commercial
interruptions flashing by and the content communicated, it dawned on me
that humans being exposed repeatedly to this kind of sensory input must
take a hit in their nervous systems. I mean, that input is going somewhere,
even if one blocks it out at one level. I strongly suspect the fads have
something to do with it.
(This was severely OT, I beg forgiveness)

Now, to your bread aging issue:

- all temperature in Celsius, I am sure you can handle it:

- below -20, no (aging)
-20 - -7: almost none
- 7 .. 0 slow
just above 0: very fast
about 3 -> 20: fast
above 20 slow
above 55 no

translated: don't put it in the fridge, freeze it instead or keep it at
room temperature. Condensation at room temperature in airtight containers
is an issue, I use zip-loc plastic bags but leave the seal open an inch or
so to allow some air circulation.

Freeaing works great - I either bake small loafs or cut large one's in
pieces and freeze them right after baking. Thawing in microwave, then allow
to air for a while to avoid condensation. Very minor difference to freshly
baked bread.

The minimum storage life for bread is very much dependent on the variety:

White wheat bread (white flour): 2 - 3 days
Wheat/rye mix breads 2 - 5
Rye/Wheat mix breads 5 - 7
rye breads 6 - 10
rye meal breads 8 - 12

all that number info is from Schuenemann/Treu Baking Technology book.

Samartha





remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

"Dusty" wrote in message ...

> I had another fine loaf of 100% SD ruined before I could eat more than a
few
> slices of it by our dry climate. In the old days (pre-low carb) someone
> (that mostly being me!) would gobble it right up, so storing it for a few
> days was a non-issue. Even though I've been reading here for many years,
I
> still seem to have a hole in this portion of my understanding of bread.
>
<snip some "how do I store it" stuff>

Dusty:

I think this is what I'd do in your situation:

Option 1:

Give some of it away to your friends and neighbors. I bet they would like
that. (I think this is the best option)

Option 2:

Make smaller loaves that you'd use before they'd go bad. I know that this
would not necessarily be a reasonable option depending on how you are using
the bread and the type of loaves. I would have a hard time figuring out how
to make a pan loaf small enough to make just a couple of sandwiches.


Option 3:

Make your usual loaf. After baking, let the bread cool down for three or
four hours to make sure it was down to room temperature. I'd then cut off
what I think I would use over the next couple of days and put that aside.
I'd then double bag in plastic the remainder and throw it in the freezer.
Though it's not quite the same as bread that's never been frozen, I've found
that freezing bread that is not long out of the oven works out pretty well.
I've tried freezing after I've let it sit (cure) for a day or so, but
haven't liked the results as much as bread I've frozen sooner after baking.
When you are ready to use the frozen portion just let it defrost at room
temperature.

With the portion I'd cut off and not frozen I'd just sit it cut-side down on
my cutting board for a while so it would "cure" and use it over the next day
or so.


I'm in a similar situation, but it has to do more with whole loaves. I will
usually make three or four loaves at a time. If I'm not giving any away,
I'll keep one out to use fresh which I will bag after it's been sitting out
somewhere between 12 and 24 hours. The others I will double bag and freeze
after they've cooled down and defrost as needed.

I hope some of this was helpful.

Thanks,
-Mike

"Samartha" wrote in message
news:mailman.1089151324.18964.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...

>after
> watching (not having done so for over 6 years) a US basketball game (LA
> Lakers ./. Detroit Pistons) on TV

Well, at least you were watching a pretty good game. Well, I thought those
games were pretty good. I love good defensive basketball.

OT stuff, so I'll stop now.

Take care,
-Mike

"Dusty" > wrote in message
...
> G'day all;
>
> I had another fine loaf of 100% SD ruined before I could eat more than a
few
> slices of it by our dry climate. In the old days (pre-low carb) someone
> (that mostly being me!) would gobble it right up, so storing it for a few
> days was a non-issue. Even though I've been reading here for many years,
I
> still seem to have a hole in this portion of my understanding of bread.
>
> I've done a Google search on past posts about this subject, looking for
some
> enlightenment. As you might expect, most of the 5,800 or so responses I
> found was something like: "Do it this way! No! Your way sux, do it the
> other way. No it doesn't! Yes it does...", and so on. For too many
years
> America has been the land of "wonder bread" wrapped in plastic.
Obviously,
> for those of us reading and posting here, we've moved into the world of
> 'real' breads. But none of us brought along the knowledge on how to
> properly care for 'real' bread once it's baked (at least speaking for
> myself, that is).
>
> In my experience I found that leaving a freshly baked loaf out for at
least
> a day seems to "cure" it about right. But leave it out any longer and the
> words "hockey puck" come to mind. Anybody have any good ideas on how to
> store a loaf or two of bread for let's say up to a week? I tried heavy
> Kraft paper. That didn't make the cut. The loaf was hard enough that the
> ducks wouldn't even eat it in 4-days (15-20% humidity & a 95F day aren't
> conducive to long bread life). I've tried waxed papers. But if you wrap
it
> tightly, it's no better than plastic. Wrap it loosely, and the only
> difference between it and Kraft paper is the cost. Is there such a thing
as
> a finely (tightly) woven bag perhaps? Maybe a leather carry pouch? Since
> we need to be able to put/use/get this container into an RV, please don't
> suggest a "bread-box!"
>
> I was wondering if anyone had ever used a kind of "Ziploc" bag that had a
> sea of tiny holes punched into it? I don't recall the name--can't seem to
> find it on any shelves, either--but I believe it was touted to be "best"
for
> storing veggies. It would seem that a finely perforated plastic bag would
> solve this problem just about right. Tyvek, perhaps?
>
> I was hoping that maybe some of our European readership would chime in on
> this matter? After all, the notion of 'real' bread being a part of their
> daily staple is a far more ingrained event than our instant bread sealed
in
> plastic culture. I mean, after all, 200 years ago folks baked once a week
> or so...they must have had a way to store their bread so that it would
last
> a week anyway. I can bake their bread, now. I just haven't managed to
> figure out quite how they managed to keep it...
>
> Regards to all,
> Dusty
> San Jose, Ca.
> --
> Remove STORE to reply
>
>

I don't know about your bread but my bread is usually stale in about 6-8
hours after it comes out of the oven. Never liked the taste of
preservatives. Freezing is the only way toI know of to keep bread for week
without staling.

Fred
Foodie Forums
http://www.foodieforums.com

"Fred" > wrote in message
...
....
> I don't know about your bread but my bread is usually stale in about 6-8
> hours after it comes out of the oven. Never liked the taste of
> preservatives. Freezing is the only way toI know of to keep bread for
week
> without staling.

Hmmmm. Interesting. I guess we need to start by you defining for me *your*
definition of "stale". Cuz I don't ever recall a bread getting "stale"
within a 6-8 hour window. Perhaps your standards are simply higher than
mine? (:-)!


Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
>
> Fred
> Foodie Forums
> http://www.foodieforums.com
>
>
>
>

"Samartha" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1089151324.18964.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
....
> >I had another fine loaf of 100% SD ruined before I could eat more than a
few
> >slices of it by our dry climate. In the old days (pre-low carb)
>
> (excuse me - IMO, that low carb frenzy is <censored> - seems to me that
Fortunately it's only your own self-inflated opinion--so no big deal!

> folks in US need some kind of induced stimulation by the means of a fad to
> enjoy their life) - I had to say that since you really seem to be on
it;-)
Frenzy? Fad? Methinks that one of us doesn't understand either term. A
*fad* would be the, "Let's all get on the lo-fat, high-carb _fad_," as
promulgated by most everybody downstream of the AMA since the late '60's.
In case you've been living under a rock, the instances of juvenile and adult
onset diabetes, and obesity in this country has sky-rocketed since this
"fad" took hold in the '70's. The "frenzy" you're probably referring to is
probably the loud, obnoxious [frenzied] braying of ignorant, ill-informed
detractors of a less sugars and carbohydrate based (the usual fare of fast
or other highly processed foods) way of life. The human organism was NOT
designed to ingest such quantities of carbohydrates--if you can show me
*any* peer-reviewed evidence in any internationally recognized medical
journal from any country in the world--and I am incorrect--I'll gladly
apologize. Until then, you might try reading and researching your way
through JAMA, NEJM, CDC, NIDDK, PubMed, and lots of others... BTDT! Found
nada!

I have chosen to alter my way of eating to reflect what the best evidence
says is what we were designed to eat. Although it's well known, I did not
and do not proselytize this concept to the ignorant masses all around me. I
don't care what you eat. So I'll thank you to keep your shallow, biased,
ill-informed opinions to yourself.

....
> interruptions flashing by and the content communicated, it dawned on me
> that humans being exposed repeatedly to this kind of sensory input must
> take a hit in their nervous systems. I mean, that input is going
somewhere,
Trust me, not all "humans" are as simple or easily manipulated as those
you're referring to. I don't internalize others opinions--I read them and
think about them and what they mean in that portion of the grand scheme of
things within my ken. Then, when I _want_ an opinion, I form one. A
concept apparently alien to some reading and posting here...

....
> Now, to your bread aging issue:
Finally!

>
> - all temperature in Celsius, I am sure you can handle it:
I'm sure it's tough, but I'll do my best to keep up...

> - below -20, no (aging)
> -20 - -7: almost none
> - 7 .. 0 slow
> just above 0: very fast
> about 3 -> 20: fast
> above 20 slow
> above 55 no
Can this be correct? How does one go from slow aging between -7 & 0C, and
then jump to "very fast" with the application of a few more degrees. That
doesn't seem correct...

> translated: don't put it in the fridge, freeze it instead or keep it at
> room temperature. Condensation at room temperature in airtight containers
> is an issue, I use zip-loc plastic bags but leave the seal open an inch or
> so to allow some air circulation.
>
> Freeaing works great - I either bake small loafs or cut large one's in
> pieces and freeze them right after baking. Thawing in microwave, then
allow
> to air for a while to avoid condensation. Very minor difference to freshly
> baked bread.
Hmmm. This could be useful. I also got lots of other, similar comments as
well. It's just that freezer space, like counter space, is at a premium in
an RV. There must be a way that bread was stored, day-to-day, that didn't
require freezing. That would have been hard to do even just a 100 years
ago...

> The minimum storage life for bread is very much dependent on the variety:
>
> White wheat bread (white flour): 2 - 3 days
> Wheat/rye mix breads 2 - 5
> Rye/Wheat mix breads 5 - 7
> rye breads 6 - 10
> rye meal breads 8 - 12
Now that's a good point. My breads seem to go more than a week w/o getting
moldy or going bad. But, as you've pointed out, the kind of bread almost
certainly makes a major contribution to loaf longevity. Since I usually do
rustic style breads exclusively with sourdough, that would explain why they
tend to age well (unless they dry out!).

Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
> Samartha
>
>
>
>
>
> remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address
>

At 08:10 PM 7/6/2004, "Dusty" > wrote:


many words - I now you love me anyway:-)

> > - all temperature in Celsius, I am sure you can handle it:
>I'm sure it's tough, but I'll do my best to keep up...

I paste a conversion table at the end - it would be very boring here (I think).

> > - below -20, no (aging)
> > -20 - -7: almost none
> > - 7 .. 0 slow
> > just above 0: very fast
> > about 3 -> 20: fast
> > above 20 slow
> > above 55 no
>Can this be correct? How does one go from slow aging between -7 & 0C, and
>then jump to "very fast" with the application of a few more degrees. That
>doesn't seem correct...

Well, many people live in different realities and often things just don't
make sense which does not necessarily make them incorrect. Incorrectness to
apply requires a system of agreed values - since we don't seem to run on
agreed values, you should not say such words (by my standards, with your's,
of cause you may).

Since you are such a nice guy, I've made you a pictu

http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE...6/P7061663.JPG

with the following Celsius/Fahrenheit (or the other way around - I don't
know yet) and the following translation, it should be easier:

Heading: Aging of baking products at different temperatures

unterbunden - suppressed
langsam - slow
schnell - quick
sehr schnell - very quick
fast unterbunden - almost suppressed
unterbunden - suppressed

As you can (hopefully) easily see, the aging speed maximum (a few degrees
above 0 C) and where they determined the slow aging areas in the lower (-7
C) and higher (+20 C) temperature range are asymmetric (7 versus 20).

Let's further assume that the folks doing the measuring (I do - you may
choose as you please) knew what they were doing (with the aging measuring)
one could conclude from this that stuff like that happens, accept it and
have fun with something else.

Samartha

before I forget, the fahr table:

-100 -73
-98 -72
-96 -71
-94 -70
-92 -68
-90 -67
-88 -66
-86 -65
-84 -64
-82 -63
-80 -62
-78 -61
-76 -60
-74 -58
-72 -57
-70 -56
-68 -55
-66 -54
-64 -53
-62 -52
-60 -51
-58 -50
-56 -48
-54 -47
-52 -46
-50 -45
-48 -44
-46 -43
-44 -42
-42 -41
-40 -40
-38 -38
-36 -37
-34 -36
-32 -35
-30 -34
-28 -33
-26 -32
-24 -31
-22 -30
-20 -28
-18 -27
-16 -26
-14 -25
-12 -24
-10 -23
-8 -22
-6 -21
-4 -20
-2 -18
0 -17
2 -16
4 -15
6 -14
8 -13
10 -12
12 -11
14 -10
16 -8
18 -7
20 -6
22 -5
24 -4
26 -3
28 -2
30 -1
32 0
34 1
36 2
38 3
40 4
42 5
44 6
46 7
48 8
50 10
52 11
54 12
56 13
58 14
60 15
62 16
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and no, I am not going to fix the picture rotation

"Samartha" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1089175626.23324.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
....
> > > - below -20, no (aging)
> > > -20 - -7: almost none
> > > - 7 .. 0 slow
> > > just above 0: very fast
> > > about 3 -> 20: fast
> > > above 20 slow
> > > above 55 no
> >Can this be correct? How does one go from slow aging between -7 & 0C,
and
> >then jump to "very fast" with the application of a few more degrees.
That
> >doesn't seem correct...
>
> Well, many people live in different realities and often things just don't
> make sense which does not necessarily make them incorrect. Incorrectness
to
> apply requires a system of agreed values - since we don't seem to run on
> agreed values, you should not say such words (by my standards, with
your's,
> of cause you may).
>
> Since you are such a nice guy, I've made you a pictu
>
> http://samartha.net/SD/images/BYDATE...6/P7061663.JPG
>
> with the following Celsius/Fahrenheit (or the other way around - I don't
> know yet) and the following translation, it should be easier:
>
> Heading: Aging of baking products at different temperatures
>
> unterbunden - suppressed
> langsam - slow
> schnell - quick
> sehr schnell - very quick
> fast unterbunden - almost suppressed
> unterbunden - suppressed
>
> As you can (hopefully) easily see, the aging speed maximum (a few degrees
> above 0 C) and where they determined the slow aging areas in the lower (-7
> C) and higher (+20 C) temperature range are asymmetric (7 versus 20).
Very interesting! The the aging process is 'unterbunden' (prevented or
suppressed) at the upper temperatures is nothing short of astounding. The
lower temps I could see, but that aging is prevented at the higher temps is
certainly interesting news.

> Let's further assume that the folks doing the measuring (I do - you may
> choose as you please) knew what they were doing (with the aging measuring)
> one could conclude from this that stuff like that happens, accept it and
> have fun with something else.

I had asked about the veracity of that statement because it seemed to fly in
the face of other, more typical temperature involved events.

Very interesting. Thank you.

Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply
>
> before I forget, the fahr table:
>
> -100 -73
Oh darn it all! Now I'll have to convert everything to Kelvin anyway!
....

On Tue, 6 Jul 2004 20:00:44 -0500, "Fred" >
wrote:

>I don't know about your bread but my bread is usually stale in about 6-8
>hours after it comes out of the oven. Never liked the taste of
>preservatives. Freezing is the only way toI know of to keep bread for week
>without staling.

Hi Fred,

I know nothing about the chemistry of staling, but I do know that my
breads are fine for 4-5 days (at least.)

I also know that Lionel Poilne often said that he believed that his
breads were at their best of taste and texture three days after they
were baked.

In both cases, I am describing lean breads... Nothing in 'em but
flour, water, salt, and culture.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Dusty" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> G'day all;
>
> I had another fine loaf of 100% SD ruined before I could eat more than a
few
> slices of it by our dry climate. In the old days (pre-low carb) someone
> (that mostly being me!) would gobble it right up, so storing it for a few
> days was a non-issue. Even though I've been reading here for many years,
I
> still seem to have a hole in this portion of my understanding of bread.
>
> I've done a Google search on past posts about this subject, looking for
some
> enlightenment. As you might expect, most of the 5,800 or so responses I
> found was something like: "Do it this way! No! Your way sux, do it the
> other way. No it doesn't! Yes it does...", and so on. For too many
years
> America has been the land of "wonder bread" wrapped in plastic.
Obviously,
> for those of us reading and posting here, we've moved into the world of
> 'real' breads. But none of us brought along the knowledge on how to
> properly care for 'real' bread once it's baked (at least speaking for
> myself, that is).
>
> In my experience I found that leaving a freshly baked loaf out for at
least
> a day seems to "cure" it about right. But leave it out any longer and the
> words "hockey puck" come to mind. Anybody have any good ideas on how to
> store a loaf or two of bread for let's say up to a week? I tried heavy
> Kraft paper. That didn't make the cut. The loaf was hard enough that the
> ducks wouldn't even eat it in 4-days (15-20% humidity & a 95F day aren't
> conducive to long bread life). I've tried waxed papers. But if you wrap
it
> tightly, it's no better than plastic. Wrap it loosely, and the only
> difference between it and Kraft paper is the cost. Is there such a thing
as
> a finely (tightly) woven bag perhaps? Maybe a leather carry pouch? Since
> we need to be able to put/use/get this container into an RV, please don't
> suggest a "bread-box!"
>
> I was wondering if anyone had ever used a kind of "Ziploc" bag that had a
> sea of tiny holes punched into it? I don't recall the name--can't seem to
> find it on any shelves, either--but I believe it was touted to be "best"
for
> storing veggies. It would seem that a finely perforated plastic bag would
> solve this problem just about right. Tyvek, perhaps?
>
> I was hoping that maybe some of our European readership would chime in on
> this matter? After all, the notion of 'real' bread being a part of their
> daily staple is a far more ingrained event than our instant bread sealed
in
> plastic culture. I mean, after all, 200 years ago folks baked once a week
> or so...they must have had a way to store their bread so that it would
last
> a week anyway. I can bake their bread, now. I just haven't managed to
> figure out quite how they managed to keep it...
>
> Regards to all,
> Dusty
> San Jose, Ca.
> --
> Remove STORE to reply
>

Dusty,
why not using a bread-box?? I wrap my sourdough bread into a linen towel
and then into the "Tupperware" bread-box.
Here in Europe there are two sizes available.

I previous times the people baked only once a week, but the last bread often
was too hard to bite. They often use bread-boxes from wood or pottery. Now
you can use Tupperware if you don't want to freeze your Bread.

Ulrike from Germany

"Dusty" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> G'day all;
>
> I had another fine loaf of 100% SD ruined before I could eat more than a
few
> slices of it by our dry climate. In the old days (pre-low carb) someone
> (that mostly being me!) would gobble it right up, so storing it for a few
> days was a non-issue. Even though I've been reading here for many years,
I
> still seem to have a hole in this portion of my understanding of bread.
>
> I've done a Google search on past posts about this subject, looking for
some
> enlightenment. As you might expect, most of the 5,800 or so responses I
> found was something like: "Do it this way! No! Your way sux, do it the
> other way. No it doesn't! Yes it does...", and so on. For too many
years
> America has been the land of "wonder bread" wrapped in plastic.
Obviously,
> for those of us reading and posting here, we've moved into the world of
> 'real' breads. But none of us brought along the knowledge on how to
> properly care for 'real' bread once it's baked (at least speaking for
> myself, that is).
>
> In my experience I found that leaving a freshly baked loaf out for at
least
> a day seems to "cure" it about right. But leave it out any longer and the
> words "hockey puck" come to mind. Anybody have any good ideas on how to
> store a loaf or two of bread for let's say up to a week? I tried heavy
> Kraft paper. That didn't make the cut. The loaf was hard enough that the
> ducks wouldn't even eat it in 4-days (15-20% humidity & a 95F day aren't
> conducive to long bread life). I've tried waxed papers. But if you wrap
it
> tightly, it's no better than plastic. Wrap it loosely, and the only
> difference between it and Kraft paper is the cost. Is there such a thing
as
> a finely (tightly) woven bag perhaps? Maybe a leather carry pouch? Since
> we need to be able to put/use/get this container into an RV, please don't
> suggest a "bread-box!"
>
> I was wondering if anyone had ever used a kind of "Ziploc" bag that had a
> sea of tiny holes punched into it? I don't recall the name--can't seem to
> find it on any shelves, either--but I believe it was touted to be "best"
for
> storing veggies. It would seem that a finely perforated plastic bag would
> solve this problem just about right. Tyvek, perhaps?
>
> I was hoping that maybe some of our European readership would chime in on
> this matter? After all, the notion of 'real' bread being a part of their
> daily staple is a far more ingrained event than our instant bread sealed
in
> plastic culture. I mean, after all, 200 years ago folks baked once a week
> or so...they must have had a way to store their bread so that it would
last
> a week anyway. I can bake their bread, now. I just haven't managed to
> figure out quite how they managed to keep it...
>
> Regards to all,
> Dusty
> San Jose, Ca.
> --
> Remove STORE to reply
>

Dusty,
why not using a bread-box?? I wrap my sourdough bread into a linen towel
and then into the "Tupperware" bread-box.
Here in Europe there are two sizes available.

I previous times the people baked only once a week, but the last bread often
was too hard to bite. They often use bread-boxes from wood or pottery. Now
you can use Tupperware if you don't want to freeze your Bread.

Ulrike from Germany

Hello Ulrike!

I was hoping that some of our European readers would chime in. It's
certainly always good to hear from you...

"Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message
...
....
> Dusty,
> why not using a bread-box?? I wrap my sourdough bread into a linen towel
> and then into the "Tupperware" bread-box.
> Here in Europe there are two sizes available.
More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that something like that will
become necessary. Somehow I must find the room, always a problem in an RV.
<big sigh!>

I know that I must protect the bread from drying out, as that seems to be
the most serious impediment to long shelf-life in my area (albeit as I
travel that will surely change). Can you describe your "linen towel" a bit
more? In particular; size, shape? Then do you wrap it around the bread or
just drape it? What purpose does it serve inside a plastic box? Soak up
condensation?

> I previous times the people baked only once a week, but the last bread
often
> was too hard to bite. They often use bread-boxes from wood or pottery. Now
Yes. I'm sure this was the case. I had failed to consider that the last
few days may well have been a challenge to eat. As Samartha's graph clearly
laid bare, it would seem that either freezing or storage at room-temp would
be the best solutions. Obviously the RT storage is most useful...now it's
just the matter of finding some convenient storage space...

> you can use Tupperware if you don't want to freeze your Bread.
That will almost certainly be my option. Freezing is too expensive for an
RV (in terms of both space and energy), and one can't grab the loaf for a
quick slice. So ready-to-go at RT would seem to be the way to fly. Looks
like I'll hafta dig up my local Tupperware dealer and see what wares they
might have...

Good to hear from you again, Ulrike.

Dusty
Remove STORE to reply
> Ulrike from Germany
>
>

At 07:31 AM 7/7/2004, "Ulrike Westphal" > wrote:

>Dusty,
>why not using a bread-box?? I wrap my sourdough bread into a linen towel
>and then into the "Tupperware" bread-box.
>Here in Europe there are two sizes available.

In US, they are available as well - in different varieties:

http://www.epinions.com/hmgd-Housewares-All-Bread_Boxes

The one on the back on this pictu

http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/ I got from Target

Now, a breadbox may help to keep the moisture and kitchen tidy, the
moisture keeping can also accomplished with brown paper bags possibly
increasing the untidy factor.


If there is an abundance of white bread, conversion to bread crumbs (for
braiding) and croutons (various applications) are options. Actually my main
reason to make white bread is to get it into those conditions.

>I previous times the people baked only once a week, but the last bread often
>was too hard to bite.

I understand that in northern Italy, in some alpine areas, they baked once
a year - (rye :-) flat bread which could be consumed hard since it was very
thin.

>They often use bread-boxes from wood or pottery. Now
>you can use Tupperware if you don't want to freeze your Bread.


>Ulrike from Germany

That's interesting - the pictures you posted recently:

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...lrikeLoaf.html

is that type of bread common in your area - white, pan and all?

Thanks,

Samartha




remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

"Dusty" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> Hello Ulrike!
>
> I was hoping that some of our European readers would chime in. It's
> certainly always good to hear from you...
>
> "Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message
> ...
> ...
> > Dusty,
> > why not using a bread-box?? I wrap my sourdough bread into a linen
towel
> > and then into the "Tupperware" bread-box.
> > Here in Europe there are two sizes available.
> More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that something like that will
> become necessary. Somehow I must find the room, always a problem in an
RV.
> <big sigh!>
>
> I know that I must protect the bread from drying out, as that seems to be
> the most serious impediment to long shelf-life in my area (albeit as I
> travel that will surely change). Can you describe your "linen towel" a
bit
> more? In particular; size, shape? Then do you wrap it around the bread
or
> just drape it? What purpose does it serve inside a plastic box? Soak up
> condensation?
>
> > I previous times the people baked only once a week, but the last bread
> often
> > was too hard to bite. They often use bread-boxes from wood or pottery.
Now
> Yes. I'm sure this was the case. I had failed to consider that the last
> few days may well have been a challenge to eat. As Samartha's graph
clearly
> laid bare, it would seem that either freezing or storage at room-temp
would
> be the best solutions. Obviously the RT storage is most useful...now it's
> just the matter of finding some convenient storage space...
>
> > you can use Tupperware if you don't want to freeze your Bread.
> That will almost certainly be my option. Freezing is too expensive for an
> RV (in terms of both space and energy), and one can't grab the loaf for a
> quick slice. So ready-to-go at RT would seem to be the way to fly. Looks
> like I'll hafta dig up my local Tupperware dealer and see what wares they
> might have...
>
> Good to hear from you again, Ulrike.
>
> Dusty
> Remove STORE to reply
> > Ulrike from Germany
> >
Dusty,
I don't know what the linen towel does exactly, I only know that it works.
Maybe brown paper-bags work als well, but the North of Germay is not a good
area to get brown paper-bags.
It's an ordinary linen dish towel, 51 cm x 75 cm. I wrap my loaf into the
towel.

Ulrike

"Dusty" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> Hello Ulrike!
>
> I was hoping that some of our European readers would chime in. It's
> certainly always good to hear from you...
>
> "Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message
> ...
> ...
> > Dusty,
> > why not using a bread-box?? I wrap my sourdough bread into a linen
towel
> > and then into the "Tupperware" bread-box.
> > Here in Europe there are two sizes available.
> More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that something like that will
> become necessary. Somehow I must find the room, always a problem in an
RV.
> <big sigh!>
>
> I know that I must protect the bread from drying out, as that seems to be
> the most serious impediment to long shelf-life in my area (albeit as I
> travel that will surely change). Can you describe your "linen towel" a
bit
> more? In particular; size, shape? Then do you wrap it around the bread
or
> just drape it? What purpose does it serve inside a plastic box? Soak up
> condensation?
>
> > I previous times the people baked only once a week, but the last bread
> often
> > was too hard to bite. They often use bread-boxes from wood or pottery.
Now
> Yes. I'm sure this was the case. I had failed to consider that the last
> few days may well have been a challenge to eat. As Samartha's graph
clearly
> laid bare, it would seem that either freezing or storage at room-temp
would
> be the best solutions. Obviously the RT storage is most useful...now it's
> just the matter of finding some convenient storage space...
>
> > you can use Tupperware if you don't want to freeze your Bread.
> That will almost certainly be my option. Freezing is too expensive for an
> RV (in terms of both space and energy), and one can't grab the loaf for a
> quick slice. So ready-to-go at RT would seem to be the way to fly. Looks
> like I'll hafta dig up my local Tupperware dealer and see what wares they
> might have...
>
> Good to hear from you again, Ulrike.
>
> Dusty
> Remove STORE to reply
> > Ulrike from Germany
> >
Dusty,
I don't know what the linen towel does exactly, I only know that it works.
Maybe brown paper-bags work als well, but the North of Germay is not a good
area to get brown paper-bags.
It's an ordinary linen dish towel, 51 cm x 75 cm. I wrap my loaf into the
towel.

Ulrike

"Samartha" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag

[snip]
> I understand that in northern Italy, in some alpine areas, they baked once
> a year - (rye :-) flat bread which could be consumed hard since it was
very
> thin.
That's not the kind of bread I meant. I'm from the "Schwarzbrotregion". They
baked black bread rye or rye/wheat once a week.

> >Ulrike from Germany
>
> That's interesting - the pictures you posted recently:
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...lrikeLoaf.html
>
> is that type of bread common in your area - white, pan and all?

Baking with a starter from wheat was not common in my area.
I'm from Schleswig-Holstein, the rye-eating people. I love very dense whole
rye-breads.
In previous times black breads or brown breads were common. They are so
sticky, that you have to use pans.

> Thanks,
>
> Samartha
>
Now two typical "Bauernbrote" (Farmhouse Loaves??) do their proof. If you
are interested, I'll send you the pictures.

Gruesse aus Schleswig-Holstein

Ulrike

"Samartha" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag

[snip]
> I understand that in northern Italy, in some alpine areas, they baked once
> a year - (rye :-) flat bread which could be consumed hard since it was
very
> thin.
That's not the kind of bread I meant. I'm from the "Schwarzbrotregion". They
baked black bread rye or rye/wheat once a week.

> >Ulrike from Germany
>
> That's interesting - the pictures you posted recently:
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...lrikeLoaf.html
>
> is that type of bread common in your area - white, pan and all?

Baking with a starter from wheat was not common in my area.
I'm from Schleswig-Holstein, the rye-eating people. I love very dense whole
rye-breads.
In previous times black breads or brown breads were common. They are so
sticky, that you have to use pans.

> Thanks,
>
> Samartha
>
Now two typical "Bauernbrote" (Farmhouse Loaves??) do their proof. If you
are interested, I'll send you the pictures.

Gruesse aus Schleswig-Holstein

Ulrike

"Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message
...
....
> Dusty,
> I don't know what the linen towel does exactly, I only know that it works.
> Maybe brown paper-bags work als well, but the North of Germay is not a
good
> area to get brown paper-bags.
> It's an ordinary linen dish towel, 51 cm x 75 cm. I wrap my loaf into the
> towel.
Okay, thanks, Ulrike. I'll give that shot. I haven't yet obtained my
storage container, but I shall pick up a few new dish towels when I do that.
All of mine are a miniature "Terry" type material, and that probably won't
work as well.

At the moment I'm having a blast deep in the throes of making a SD based
"Coccodrillo". That darn John Wright has caused me no end of sleepless
nights! I find myself mired in HH (high hydration) dough's...no end to S&F
(stretch & fold)...no end to Ciabattas and Francesci's and all sorts of
wonderful Italian breads...*&^%$#@!~ (;-o)!

Later all,
Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

"Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message
...
....
> Dusty,
> I don't know what the linen towel does exactly, I only know that it works.
> Maybe brown paper-bags work als well, but the North of Germay is not a
good
> area to get brown paper-bags.
> It's an ordinary linen dish towel, 51 cm x 75 cm. I wrap my loaf into the
> towel.
Okay, thanks, Ulrike. I'll give that shot. I haven't yet obtained my
storage container, but I shall pick up a few new dish towels when I do that.
All of mine are a miniature "Terry" type material, and that probably won't
work as well.

At the moment I'm having a blast deep in the throes of making a SD based
"Coccodrillo". That darn John Wright has caused me no end of sleepless
nights! I find myself mired in HH (high hydration) dough's...no end to S&F
(stretch & fold)...no end to Ciabattas and Francesci's and all sorts of
wonderful Italian breads...*&^%$#@!~ (;-o)!

Later all,
Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

At 02:43 PM 7/6/2004, "Dusty" > wrote:
>G'day all;
>
>I had another fine loaf of 100% SD ruined before I could eat more than a few
>slices of it by our dry climate. In the old days (pre-low carb)

seems there is some change lately (and hope):

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._uc/nq20040710


S.

"Dusty" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ]

> I read (various opinions) and think about them and what=20
> they mean in that portion of the grand scheme of things=20
> within my ken. Then, when I _want_ an opinion, I form=20
> one.

Me, I do pretty much the same thing. Except the formed
opinion is usually wrong, but a place to start testing.

As to storing bread, I came up eventually with this:=20

Interval A is the critical one: The loaves sit on the cooling
rack for this period.

Interval B is where the loaves are bagged in plastic, further
cooled when necessary, divided into portions which can be=20
consumed in a day, and frozen. Slicing before freezing may=20
have some advantage, esp. for single people living alone. =20
For slicing soft loaves, an electric knife is good.

Interval C is where the loaves are defrosted and eaten. =20
Defrosting in a microwave oven makes sense. There is
no reason to defrost more bread than can be eaten at a=20
sitting, but, for convenience, we defrost a day's worth.
A minute in our microwave is suitable for a half pound of
bread.

All bagging is in tightly-closed plastic bags. Veggie bags
from the supermarket do fine, or one quart food bags for
small portions.

(D'ja ever notice that most bread (except from some fancy
boutiques) comes in plastic. That's cuz it works. Not every-
thing done by the commercial establishment is bad, just most
things.)

Interval A can be quite short. If the bread is bagged, or covered
with a tight cover, when it is warm, the loaf, including crust, will
be soft and chewy, and cracking/dimpling of the crust will be
avoided. (Good for folks who are insecure about their dental
work.)=20

Conceivably the loaves could sit out, or in paper bags to keep
the flies off, for several days to please the old-world, hair-shirt
crowd. Such bread will tend to be hard and dry and just a=20
step away from being fodder for making bread crumbs.

Interval B may be arbitrarily long. Not many people can tell the
difference between loaves which have been frozen and loaves
which have not-.

No doubt purists of the various persuasions will resent these=20
mumblings, but I believe that my contention, that practically any=20
bread-storage situation can be emulated by this A-B-C routine,
cannot not be convincingly refuted.

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Dusty" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ]

> I read (various opinions) and think about them and what=20
> they mean in that portion of the grand scheme of things=20
> within my ken. Then, when I _want_ an opinion, I form=20
> one.

Me, I do pretty much the same thing. Except the formed
opinion is usually wrong, but a place to start testing.

As to storing bread, I came up eventually with this:=20

Interval A is the critical one: The loaves sit on the cooling
rack for this period.

Interval B is where the loaves are bagged in plastic, further
cooled when necessary, divided into portions which can be=20
consumed in a day, and frozen. Slicing before freezing may=20
have some advantage, esp. for single people living alone. =20
For slicing soft loaves, an electric knife is good.

Interval C is where the loaves are defrosted and eaten. =20
Defrosting in a microwave oven makes sense. There is
no reason to defrost more bread than can be eaten at a=20
sitting, but, for convenience, we defrost a day's worth.
A minute in our microwave is suitable for a half pound of
bread.

All bagging is in tightly-closed plastic bags. Veggie bags
from the supermarket do fine, or one quart food bags for
small portions.

(D'ja ever notice that most bread (except from some fancy
boutiques) comes in plastic. That's cuz it works. Not every-
thing done by the commercial establishment is bad, just most
things.)

Interval A can be quite short. If the bread is bagged, or covered
with a tight cover, when it is warm, the loaf, including crust, will
be soft and chewy, and cracking/dimpling of the crust will be
avoided. (Good for folks who are insecure about their dental
work.)=20

Conceivably the loaves could sit out, or in paper bags to keep
the flies off, for several days to please the old-world, hair-shirt
crowd. Such bread will tend to be hard and dry and just a=20
step away from being fodder for making bread crumbs.

Interval B may be arbitrarily long. Not many people can tell the
difference between loaves which have been frozen and loaves
which have not-.

No doubt purists of the various persuasions will resent these=20
mumblings, but I believe that my contention, that practically any=20
bread-storage situation can be emulated by this A-B-C routine,
cannot not be convincingly refuted.

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
....
> they mean in that portion of the grand scheme of things
> within my ken. Then, when I _want_ an opinion, I form
> one.

Me, I do pretty much the same thing. Except the formed
opinion is usually wrong, but a place to start testing.
[I work at fleshing out the input. That often means doing ancillary
research and reading--as opposed to those that can only seem to manage to
use comics as input...(:-o)!]

As to storing bread, I came up eventually with this:

Interval A is the critical one: The loaves sit on the cooling
rack for this period.

Interval B is where the loaves are bagged in plastic, further
cooled when necessary, divided into portions which can be
consumed in a day, and frozen. Slicing before freezing may
have some advantage, esp. for single people living alone.
For slicing soft loaves, an electric knife is good.

Interval C is where the loaves are defrosted and eaten.
Defrosting in a microwave oven makes sense. There is
no reason to defrost more bread than can be eaten at a
sitting, but, for convenience, we defrost a day's worth.
A minute in our microwave is suitable for a half pound of
bread.

.... <good descriptions snipped for brevity>

No doubt purists of the various persuasions will resent these
mumblings, but I believe that my contention, that practically any
bread-storage situation can be emulated by this A-B-C routine,
cannot not be convincingly refuted.
[No. Actually you've summed it up pretty well. I'd not thought about the
issue in terms of intervals. But I think that you've pretty effectively
laid out the "natural" sequence of events.

I had hoped to get a more historic perspective on how this was done in years
past from our European readership. Ulrike pretty much outlined how to
impose a storage system over your defined "interval" concept. Tupperware &
linen seems to be the ticket. Although I'm pretty sure that my grandmother,
living in rural south German farm country--a century ago, didn't use
that...(:-o)!

Before I forget; I want to thank all of you for your replies both here and
off-line. Some have been very useful--some not at all. But that's not to
say that they weren't useful to others--so I'm grateful none-the-less. One
of the reasons I've worked so hard to recapture "the old days" in baking is
that retirement is finding me far from modern facilities--not, as my kids
tell me, just because I'm a contrary cuss and hardcore curmudgeon in
training...

At any rate, being "off-grid" all of the time does impact how one uses their
resources. When a freezer is the size of a shoebox, it's frightfully hard
to "just bag it and put it in the freezer". What do I do with next weeks
dinner in the mean time?

This is made even more difficult when you begin to appreciate that freezing
isn't free. It takes energy--a considerable amount. Too much to freeze it
one day, and then thaw it out in the "mikey" the next. Modern and efficient
as they are, it's still damned difficult to run a microwave oven on battery
power alone--at least not for long, even with the batteries and power system
that I developed.

Same goes for some of the purists posting here, you think nothing of heating
your ovens nearly hot enough to melt lead for 3 or 4 hours as you seek the
perfect stone temperature. I don't so much begrudge the gas necessary to do
that--that's cheap! It's the 300 mile round trip in a big truck over rocks,
through mud, and along road-less track to get the LP tank refilled that
makes it really dear! And, FWIW; I've found a cold start to be far more
effective than hot so far. This may not hold true for all types of baking.
But it has for the loaves I've been making.

Case in point: our friend "Wcsjohn" roped me into making high-hydration
breads (made me buy a power mixer and digital scale too, damn it! (:-)). A
wonderful change from the dense, dry, hand-made, rustic loaves I'd grown to
love. After making rave Ciabatta's from the recipe he posted here, I was
ready for more (yes, I know, a real glutton for punishment). Consequently,
I pulled a SD conversion of a Coccodrillo recipe out of the oven yesterday.
Due to a small oven, I had to bake it in two portions. I split the dough
(if you can call it that) into two relatively equal portions. The first
went into a cold oven, the second--with about 35 minutes more "rising"
time--obviously went into a hot one. The first loaf rose _nearly_ twice as
much as the second.

For me, that's: game, set, match! These results seem to track exactly with
*all* of my previous experiences. That some mixes, techniques, or recipes
fare better from different handling than mine is almost certainly a given.
And, if you're happy with your results (long, deep pre-heats), I'm happy for
you--keep doing them! But in my experience (albeit limited) I've not found
an advantage in doing so...]


Later all,
Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
....
> they mean in that portion of the grand scheme of things
> within my ken. Then, when I _want_ an opinion, I form
> one.

Me, I do pretty much the same thing. Except the formed
opinion is usually wrong, but a place to start testing.
[I work at fleshing out the input. That often means doing ancillary
research and reading--as opposed to those that can only seem to manage to
use comics as input...(:-o)!]

As to storing bread, I came up eventually with this:

Interval A is the critical one: The loaves sit on the cooling
rack for this period.

Interval B is where the loaves are bagged in plastic, further
cooled when necessary, divided into portions which can be
consumed in a day, and frozen. Slicing before freezing may
have some advantage, esp. for single people living alone.
For slicing soft loaves, an electric knife is good.

Interval C is where the loaves are defrosted and eaten.
Defrosting in a microwave oven makes sense. There is
no reason to defrost more bread than can be eaten at a
sitting, but, for convenience, we defrost a day's worth.
A minute in our microwave is suitable for a half pound of
bread.

.... <good descriptions snipped for brevity>

No doubt purists of the various persuasions will resent these
mumblings, but I believe that my contention, that practically any
bread-storage situation can be emulated by this A-B-C routine,
cannot not be convincingly refuted.
[No. Actually you've summed it up pretty well. I'd not thought about the
issue in terms of intervals. But I think that you've pretty effectively
laid out the "natural" sequence of events.

I had hoped to get a more historic perspective on how this was done in years
past from our European readership. Ulrike pretty much outlined how to
impose a storage system over your defined "interval" concept. Tupperware &
linen seems to be the ticket. Although I'm pretty sure that my grandmother,
living in rural south German farm country--a century ago, didn't use
that...(:-o)!

Before I forget; I want to thank all of you for your replies both here and
off-line. Some have been very useful--some not at all. But that's not to
say that they weren't useful to others--so I'm grateful none-the-less. One
of the reasons I've worked so hard to recapture "the old days" in baking is
that retirement is finding me far from modern facilities--not, as my kids
tell me, just because I'm a contrary cuss and hardcore curmudgeon in
training...

At any rate, being "off-grid" all of the time does impact how one uses their
resources. When a freezer is the size of a shoebox, it's frightfully hard
to "just bag it and put it in the freezer". What do I do with next weeks
dinner in the mean time?

This is made even more difficult when you begin to appreciate that freezing
isn't free. It takes energy--a considerable amount. Too much to freeze it
one day, and then thaw it out in the "mikey" the next. Modern and efficient
as they are, it's still damned difficult to run a microwave oven on battery
power alone--at least not for long, even with the batteries and power system
that I developed.

Same goes for some of the purists posting here, you think nothing of heating
your ovens nearly hot enough to melt lead for 3 or 4 hours as you seek the
perfect stone temperature. I don't so much begrudge the gas necessary to do
that--that's cheap! It's the 300 mile round trip in a big truck over rocks,
through mud, and along road-less track to get the LP tank refilled that
makes it really dear! And, FWIW; I've found a cold start to be far more
effective than hot so far. This may not hold true for all types of baking.
But it has for the loaves I've been making.

Case in point: our friend "Wcsjohn" roped me into making high-hydration
breads (made me buy a power mixer and digital scale too, damn it! (:-)). A
wonderful change from the dense, dry, hand-made, rustic loaves I'd grown to
love. After making rave Ciabatta's from the recipe he posted here, I was
ready for more (yes, I know, a real glutton for punishment). Consequently,
I pulled a SD conversion of a Coccodrillo recipe out of the oven yesterday.
Due to a small oven, I had to bake it in two portions. I split the dough
(if you can call it that) into two relatively equal portions. The first
went into a cold oven, the second--with about 35 minutes more "rising"
time--obviously went into a hot one. The first loaf rose _nearly_ twice as
much as the second.

For me, that's: game, set, match! These results seem to track exactly with
*all* of my previous experiences. That some mixes, techniques, or recipes
fare better from different handling than mine is almost certainly a given.
And, if you're happy with your results (long, deep pre-heats), I'm happy for
you--keep doing them! But in my experience (albeit limited) I've not found
an advantage in doing so...]


Later all,
Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

"Dusty" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... Freezing takes energy--a considerable amount. Too much to freeze =
it
> one day, and then thaw it out in the "mikey" the next. Modern and =
efficient
> as they are, it's still damned difficult to run a microwave oven on =
battery
> power alone--at least not for long, even with the batteries and power =
system
> that I developed. ...

Compared to heating with electricity, for instance, freezing is a =
relatively=20
efficient process, as it is based on the Carnot cycle. Take heat at one =
temperature
and dump it at a higher temperature. Thermodynamically very elegant!
Microwaving is a process of heating with electricity, but, compared to =
resistive
heating in an enclosure, it is quite efficient as only the item needed =
to be heated
is heated. Microwaving a daily portion of frozen bread is entirely =
optional, as
the bread will thaw rapidly at room temperature.

Over the years, gas of one kind or another, or petroleum fuels, have =
been a very
cheap kind of energy. But clearly those days are coming to an end. =
Possibly another
age of artisanal ovens on the countryside is coming.

I do not know how refrigeration and freezing works in a trailer home, =
but I assume
that it is gas (i.e., propane) fueled. That should still be relatively =
cheap, if space will
allow. The expense is to be compared with more frequent bakes, assuming =
one uses
the same fuel for the bakes, as opposed to gathering wood in the =
forests.

---
DickA

"Dusty" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... Freezing takes energy--a considerable amount. Too much to freeze =
it
> one day, and then thaw it out in the "mikey" the next. Modern and =
efficient
> as they are, it's still damned difficult to run a microwave oven on =
battery
> power alone--at least not for long, even with the batteries and power =
system
> that I developed. ...

Compared to heating with electricity, for instance, freezing is a =
relatively=20
efficient process, as it is based on the Carnot cycle. Take heat at one =
temperature
and dump it at a higher temperature. Thermodynamically very elegant!
Microwaving is a process of heating with electricity, but, compared to =
resistive
heating in an enclosure, it is quite efficient as only the item needed =
to be heated
is heated. Microwaving a daily portion of frozen bread is entirely =
optional, as
the bread will thaw rapidly at room temperature.

Over the years, gas of one kind or another, or petroleum fuels, have =
been a very
cheap kind of energy. But clearly those days are coming to an end. =
Possibly another
age of artisanal ovens on the countryside is coming.

I do not know how refrigeration and freezing works in a trailer home, =
but I assume
that it is gas (i.e., propane) fueled. That should still be relatively =
cheap, if space will
allow. The expense is to be compared with more frequent bakes, assuming =
one uses
the same fuel for the bakes, as opposed to gathering wood in the =
forests.

---
DickA

"Dusty" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...
> ...
> > they mean in that portion of the grand scheme of things
> > within my ken. Then, when I _want_ an opinion, I form
> > one.
>
> Me, I do pretty much the same thing. Except the formed
> opinion is usually wrong, but a place to start testing.
> [I work at fleshing out the input. That often means doing ancillary
> research and reading--as opposed to those that can only seem to manage to
> use comics as input...(:-o)!]
>
> As to storing bread, I came up eventually with this:
>
> Interval A is the critical one: The loaves sit on the cooling
> rack for this period.
>
> Interval B is where the loaves are bagged in plastic, further
> cooled when necessary, divided into portions which can be
> consumed in a day, and frozen. Slicing before freezing may
> have some advantage, esp. for single people living alone.
> For slicing soft loaves, an electric knife is good.
>
> Interval C is where the loaves are defrosted and eaten.
> Defrosting in a microwave oven makes sense. There is
> no reason to defrost more bread than can be eaten at a
> sitting, but, for convenience, we defrost a day's worth.
> A minute in our microwave is suitable for a half pound of
> bread.
>
> ... <good descriptions snipped for brevity>
>
> No doubt purists of the various persuasions will resent these
> mumblings, but I believe that my contention, that practically any
> bread-storage situation can be emulated by this A-B-C routine,
> cannot not be convincingly refuted.
> [No. Actually you've summed it up pretty well. I'd not thought about the
> issue in terms of intervals. But I think that you've pretty effectively
> laid out the "natural" sequence of events.
>
> I had hoped to get a more historic perspective on how this was done in
years
> past from our European readership. Ulrike pretty much outlined how to
> impose a storage system over your defined "interval" concept. Tupperware
&
> linen seems to be the ticket. Although I'm pretty sure that my
grandmother,
> living in rural south German farm country--a century ago, didn't use
> that...(:-o)!

I'm sure she used a bread-box!!!!

Ulrike

> Before I forget; I want to thank all of you for your replies both here and
> off-line. Some have been very useful--some not at all. But that's not to
> say that they weren't useful to others--so I'm grateful none-the-less.
One
> of the reasons I've worked so hard to recapture "the old days" in baking
is
> that retirement is finding me far from modern facilities--not, as my kids
> tell me, just because I'm a contrary cuss and hardcore curmudgeon in
> training...
>
> At any rate, being "off-grid" all of the time does impact how one uses
their
> resources. When a freezer is the size of a shoebox, it's frightfully hard
> to "just bag it and put it in the freezer". What do I do with next weeks
> dinner in the mean time?
>
> This is made even more difficult when you begin to appreciate that
freezing
> isn't free. It takes energy--a considerable amount. Too much to freeze
it
> one day, and then thaw it out in the "mikey" the next. Modern and
efficient
> as they are, it's still damned difficult to run a microwave oven on
battery
> power alone--at least not for long, even with the batteries and power
system
> that I developed.
>
> Same goes for some of the purists posting here, you think nothing of
heating
> your ovens nearly hot enough to melt lead for 3 or 4 hours as you seek the
> perfect stone temperature. I don't so much begrudge the gas necessary to
do
> that--that's cheap! It's the 300 mile round trip in a big truck over
rocks,
> through mud, and along road-less track to get the LP tank refilled that
> makes it really dear! And, FWIW; I've found a cold start to be far more
> effective than hot so far. This may not hold true for all types of
baking.
> But it has for the loaves I've been making.
>
> Case in point: our friend "Wcsjohn" roped me into making high-hydration
> breads (made me buy a power mixer and digital scale too, damn it! (:-)).
A
> wonderful change from the dense, dry, hand-made, rustic loaves I'd grown
to
> love. After making rave Ciabatta's from the recipe he posted here, I was
> ready for more (yes, I know, a real glutton for punishment).
Consequently,
> I pulled a SD conversion of a Coccodrillo recipe out of the oven
yesterday.
> Due to a small oven, I had to bake it in two portions. I split the dough
> (if you can call it that) into two relatively equal portions. The first
> went into a cold oven, the second--with about 35 minutes more "rising"
> time--obviously went into a hot one. The first loaf rose _nearly_ twice
as
> much as the second.
>
> For me, that's: game, set, match! These results seem to track exactly
with
> *all* of my previous experiences. That some mixes, techniques, or recipes
> fare better from different handling than mine is almost certainly a given.
> And, if you're happy with your results (long, deep pre-heats), I'm happy
for
> you--keep doing them! But in my experience (albeit limited) I've not
found
> an advantage in doing so...]
>
>
> Later all,
> Dusty
> --
> Remove STORE to reply
>
>

"Dusty" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...
> ...
> > they mean in that portion of the grand scheme of things
> > within my ken. Then, when I _want_ an opinion, I form
> > one.
>
> Me, I do pretty much the same thing. Except the formed
> opinion is usually wrong, but a place to start testing.
> [I work at fleshing out the input. That often means doing ancillary
> research and reading--as opposed to those that can only seem to manage to
> use comics as input...(:-o)!]
>
> As to storing bread, I came up eventually with this:
>
> Interval A is the critical one: The loaves sit on the cooling
> rack for this period.
>
> Interval B is where the loaves are bagged in plastic, further
> cooled when necessary, divided into portions which can be
> consumed in a day, and frozen. Slicing before freezing may
> have some advantage, esp. for single people living alone.
> For slicing soft loaves, an electric knife is good.
>
> Interval C is where the loaves are defrosted and eaten.
> Defrosting in a microwave oven makes sense. There is
> no reason to defrost more bread than can be eaten at a
> sitting, but, for convenience, we defrost a day's worth.
> A minute in our microwave is suitable for a half pound of
> bread.
>
> ... <good descriptions snipped for brevity>
>
> No doubt purists of the various persuasions will resent these
> mumblings, but I believe that my contention, that practically any
> bread-storage situation can be emulated by this A-B-C routine,
> cannot not be convincingly refuted.
> [No. Actually you've summed it up pretty well. I'd not thought about the
> issue in terms of intervals. But I think that you've pretty effectively
> laid out the "natural" sequence of events.
>
> I had hoped to get a more historic perspective on how this was done in
years
> past from our European readership. Ulrike pretty much outlined how to
> impose a storage system over your defined "interval" concept. Tupperware
&
> linen seems to be the ticket. Although I'm pretty sure that my
grandmother,
> living in rural south German farm country--a century ago, didn't use
> that...(:-o)!

I'm sure she used a bread-box!!!!

Ulrike

> Before I forget; I want to thank all of you for your replies both here and
> off-line. Some have been very useful--some not at all. But that's not to
> say that they weren't useful to others--so I'm grateful none-the-less.
One
> of the reasons I've worked so hard to recapture "the old days" in baking
is
> that retirement is finding me far from modern facilities--not, as my kids
> tell me, just because I'm a contrary cuss and hardcore curmudgeon in
> training...
>
> At any rate, being "off-grid" all of the time does impact how one uses
their
> resources. When a freezer is the size of a shoebox, it's frightfully hard
> to "just bag it and put it in the freezer". What do I do with next weeks
> dinner in the mean time?
>
> This is made even more difficult when you begin to appreciate that
freezing
> isn't free. It takes energy--a considerable amount. Too much to freeze
it
> one day, and then thaw it out in the "mikey" the next. Modern and
efficient
> as they are, it's still damned difficult to run a microwave oven on
battery
> power alone--at least not for long, even with the batteries and power
system
> that I developed.
>
> Same goes for some of the purists posting here, you think nothing of
heating
> your ovens nearly hot enough to melt lead for 3 or 4 hours as you seek the
> perfect stone temperature. I don't so much begrudge the gas necessary to
do
> that--that's cheap! It's the 300 mile round trip in a big truck over
rocks,
> through mud, and along road-less track to get the LP tank refilled that
> makes it really dear! And, FWIW; I've found a cold start to be far more
> effective than hot so far. This may not hold true for all types of
baking.
> But it has for the loaves I've been making.
>
> Case in point: our friend "Wcsjohn" roped me into making high-hydration
> breads (made me buy a power mixer and digital scale too, damn it! (:-)).
A
> wonderful change from the dense, dry, hand-made, rustic loaves I'd grown
to
> love. After making rave Ciabatta's from the recipe he posted here, I was
> ready for more (yes, I know, a real glutton for punishment).
Consequently,
> I pulled a SD conversion of a Coccodrillo recipe out of the oven
yesterday.
> Due to a small oven, I had to bake it in two portions. I split the dough
> (if you can call it that) into two relatively equal portions. The first
> went into a cold oven, the second--with about 35 minutes more "rising"
> time--obviously went into a hot one. The first loaf rose _nearly_ twice
as
> much as the second.
>
> For me, that's: game, set, match! These results seem to track exactly
with
> *all* of my previous experiences. That some mixes, techniques, or recipes
> fare better from different handling than mine is almost certainly a given.
> And, if you're happy with your results (long, deep pre-heats), I'm happy
for
> you--keep doing them! But in my experience (albeit limited) I've not
found
> an advantage in doing so...]
>
>
> Later all,
> Dusty
> --
> Remove STORE to reply
>
>

"Dusty" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...
> ...
> > they mean in that portion of the grand scheme of things
> > within my ken. Then, when I _want_ an opinion, I form
> > one.
>
> Me, I do pretty much the same thing. Except the formed
> opinion is usually wrong, but a place to start testing.
> [I work at fleshing out the input. That often means doing ancillary
> research and reading--as opposed to those that can only seem to manage to
> use comics as input...(:-o)!]
>
> As to storing bread, I came up eventually with this:
>
> Interval A is the critical one: The loaves sit on the cooling
> rack for this period.
>
> Interval B is where the loaves are bagged in plastic, further
> cooled when necessary, divided into portions which can be
> consumed in a day, and frozen. Slicing before freezing may
> have some advantage, esp. for single people living alone.
> For slicing soft loaves, an electric knife is good.
>
> Interval C is where the loaves are defrosted and eaten.
> Defrosting in a microwave oven makes sense. There is
> no reason to defrost more bread than can be eaten at a
> sitting, but, for convenience, we defrost a day's worth.
> A minute in our microwave is suitable for a half pound of
> bread.
>
> ... <good descriptions snipped for brevity>
>
> No doubt purists of the various persuasions will resent these
> mumblings, but I believe that my contention, that practically any
> bread-storage situation can be emulated by this A-B-C routine,
> cannot not be convincingly refuted.
> [No. Actually you've summed it up pretty well. I'd not thought about the
> issue in terms of intervals. But I think that you've pretty effectively
> laid out the "natural" sequence of events.
>
> I had hoped to get a more historic perspective on how this was done in
years
> past from our European readership. Ulrike pretty much outlined how to
> impose a storage system over your defined "interval" concept. Tupperware
&
> linen seems to be the ticket. Although I'm pretty sure that my
grandmother,
> living in rural south German farm country--a century ago, didn't use
> that...(:-o)!

I'm sure she used a bread-box!!!!

Ulrike

> Before I forget; I want to thank all of you for your replies both here and
> off-line. Some have been very useful--some not at all. But that's not to
> say that they weren't useful to others--so I'm grateful none-the-less.
One
> of the reasons I've worked so hard to recapture "the old days" in baking
is
> that retirement is finding me far from modern facilities--not, as my kids
> tell me, just because I'm a contrary cuss and hardcore curmudgeon in
> training...
>
> At any rate, being "off-grid" all of the time does impact how one uses
their
> resources. When a freezer is the size of a shoebox, it's frightfully hard
> to "just bag it and put it in the freezer". What do I do with next weeks
> dinner in the mean time?
>
> This is made even more difficult when you begin to appreciate that
freezing
> isn't free. It takes energy--a considerable amount. Too much to freeze
it
> one day, and then thaw it out in the "mikey" the next. Modern and
efficient
> as they are, it's still damned difficult to run a microwave oven on
battery
> power alone--at least not for long, even with the batteries and power
system
> that I developed.
>
> Same goes for some of the purists posting here, you think nothing of
heating
> your ovens nearly hot enough to melt lead for 3 or 4 hours as you seek the
> perfect stone temperature. I don't so much begrudge the gas necessary to
do
> that--that's cheap! It's the 300 mile round trip in a big truck over
rocks,
> through mud, and along road-less track to get the LP tank refilled that
> makes it really dear! And, FWIW; I've found a cold start to be far more
> effective than hot so far. This may not hold true for all types of
baking.
> But it has for the loaves I've been making.
>
> Case in point: our friend "Wcsjohn" roped me into making high-hydration
> breads (made me buy a power mixer and digital scale too, damn it! (:-)).
A
> wonderful change from the dense, dry, hand-made, rustic loaves I'd grown
to
> love. After making rave Ciabatta's from the recipe he posted here, I was
> ready for more (yes, I know, a real glutton for punishment).
Consequently,
> I pulled a SD conversion of a Coccodrillo recipe out of the oven
yesterday.
> Due to a small oven, I had to bake it in two portions. I split the dough
> (if you can call it that) into two relatively equal portions. The first
> went into a cold oven, the second--with about 35 minutes more "rising"
> time--obviously went into a hot one. The first loaf rose _nearly_ twice
as
> much as the second.
>
> For me, that's: game, set, match! These results seem to track exactly
with
> *all* of my previous experiences. That some mixes, techniques, or recipes
> fare better from different handling than mine is almost certainly a given.
> And, if you're happy with your results (long, deep pre-heats), I'm happy
for
> you--keep doing them! But in my experience (albeit limited) I've not
found
> an advantage in doing so...]
>
>
> Later all,
> Dusty
> --
> Remove STORE to reply
>
>