Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures.

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  #1 (permalink)   Report Post  
**bg**
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question

Hi,

We got so busy over the lovely past few months here in Vancouver Canada,
have done no baking for a while. Raining now, so gonna bake soon.

I have created a grand batch of about 2 litres of lovely starter in a
covered glass bowl, has been in the fridge for several months.

It is about 5" deep, with about 1/4" of dark liquid on top. I am tempted to
mix it all in and proceed with making dough.

Or thinking of skimming it off first...

What do you recommend pls?

TIA

-bg-
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca

PS - Enjoy the (rough mixes) of the music if you go the website.
We will be putting new mixes up by end of Sept.
Feedback appreciated.


  #2 (permalink)   Report Post  
**bg**
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question, partial self-answer

"**bg**" > wrote in message
news:sL9Qc.11452$J06.160@pd7tw2no...
> Hi,
>
> We got so busy over the lovely past few months here in Vancouver Canada,
> have done no baking for a while. Raining now, so gonna bake soon.
>
> I have created a grand batch of about 2 litres of lovely starter in a
> covered glass bowl, has been in the fridge for several months.
>
> It is about 5" deep, with about 1/4" of dark liquid on top. I am tempted

to
> mix it all in and proceed with making dough.
>
> Or thinking of skimming it off first...
>
> What do you recommend pls?
>
> TIA
>
> -bg-
> www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca
>
> PS - Enjoy the (rough mixes) of the music if you go the website.
> We will be putting new mixes up by end of Sept.
> Feedback appreciated.

____________________________
Hi,

Just discovered this layer is likely 'hooch'. The FAQ I read on it does not
mention the rather unpleasant colour that my layer has.

The article suggests taking some starter from underneath the layer and
starting again, for a 'healthier' product.

This is the first time I have heard inference of it being unhealthy. Does
this undersireable aspect of it just refer to the alcohol content...

Tks.

-bg-
>



  #3 (permalink)   Report Post  
**bg**
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question, partial self-answer

"**bg**" > wrote in message
news:sL9Qc.11452$J06.160@pd7tw2no...
> Hi,
>
> We got so busy over the lovely past few months here in Vancouver Canada,
> have done no baking for a while. Raining now, so gonna bake soon.
>
> I have created a grand batch of about 2 litres of lovely starter in a
> covered glass bowl, has been in the fridge for several months.
>
> It is about 5" deep, with about 1/4" of dark liquid on top. I am tempted

to
> mix it all in and proceed with making dough.
>
> Or thinking of skimming it off first...
>
> What do you recommend pls?
>
> TIA
>
> -bg-
> www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca
>
> PS - Enjoy the (rough mixes) of the music if you go the website.
> We will be putting new mixes up by end of Sept.
> Feedback appreciated.

____________________________
Hi,

Just discovered this layer is likely 'hooch'. The FAQ I read on it does not
mention the rather unpleasant colour that my layer has.

The article suggests taking some starter from underneath the layer and
starting again, for a 'healthier' product.

This is the first time I have heard inference of it being unhealthy. Does
this undersireable aspect of it just refer to the alcohol content...

Tks.

-bg-
>



  #4 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question, partial self-answer


"**bg**" > wrote in message
news:qY9Qc.11524$M95.3493@pd7tw1no...
> "**bg**" > wrote in message
> news:sL9Qc.11452$J06.160@pd7tw2no...
> > Hi,
> >
> > We got so busy over the lovely past few months here in Vancouver Canada,
> > have done no baking for a while. Raining now, so gonna bake soon.
> >
> > I have created a grand batch of about 2 litres of lovely starter in a
> > covered glass bowl, has been in the fridge for several months.
> >
> > It is about 5" deep, with about 1/4" of dark liquid on top. I am

tempted
> to
> > mix it all in and proceed with making dough.
> >
> > Or thinking of skimming it off first...
> >
> > What do you recommend pls?
> >
> > TIA
> >
> > -bg-
> > www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca
> >
> > PS - Enjoy the (rough mixes) of the music if you go the website.
> > We will be putting new mixes up by end of Sept.
> > Feedback appreciated.

> ____________________________
> Hi,
>
> Just discovered this layer is likely 'hooch'. The FAQ I read on it does

not
> mention the rather unpleasant colour that my layer has.
>
> The article suggests taking some starter from underneath the layer and
> starting again, for a 'healthier' product.
>
> This is the first time I have heard inference of it being unhealthy. Does
> this undersireable aspect of it just refer to the alcohol content...
>
> Tks.
>
> -bg-

The reference is to the overall health and vitality of the starter. It does
not mean that it is unhealthy for you. A starter that has sat long enough
in the refrigerator to develop hooch and dark colors is telling you that it
needs to be fed before it has enough strength to be used for making bread.
Janet


  #5 (permalink)   Report Post  
Janet Bostwick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question, partial self-answer


"**bg**" > wrote in message
news:qY9Qc.11524$M95.3493@pd7tw1no...
> "**bg**" > wrote in message
> news:sL9Qc.11452$J06.160@pd7tw2no...
> > Hi,
> >
> > We got so busy over the lovely past few months here in Vancouver Canada,
> > have done no baking for a while. Raining now, so gonna bake soon.
> >
> > I have created a grand batch of about 2 litres of lovely starter in a
> > covered glass bowl, has been in the fridge for several months.
> >
> > It is about 5" deep, with about 1/4" of dark liquid on top. I am

tempted
> to
> > mix it all in and proceed with making dough.
> >
> > Or thinking of skimming it off first...
> >
> > What do you recommend pls?
> >
> > TIA
> >
> > -bg-
> > www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca
> >
> > PS - Enjoy the (rough mixes) of the music if you go the website.
> > We will be putting new mixes up by end of Sept.
> > Feedback appreciated.

> ____________________________
> Hi,
>
> Just discovered this layer is likely 'hooch'. The FAQ I read on it does

not
> mention the rather unpleasant colour that my layer has.
>
> The article suggests taking some starter from underneath the layer and
> starting again, for a 'healthier' product.
>
> This is the first time I have heard inference of it being unhealthy. Does
> this undersireable aspect of it just refer to the alcohol content...
>
> Tks.
>
> -bg-

The reference is to the overall health and vitality of the starter. It does
not mean that it is unhealthy for you. A starter that has sat long enough
in the refrigerator to develop hooch and dark colors is telling you that it
needs to be fed before it has enough strength to be used for making bread.
Janet




  #6 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Mailman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question

**bg** wrote:eral months.
>
> It is about 5" deep, with about 1/4" of dark liquid on top. I am tempted to
> mix it all in and proceed with making dough.
>
> Or thinking of skimming it off first...
>
> What do you recommend pls?


I'm still stuck at the idea of someone thinking they need over a half
gallon of starter.

B/
  #7 (permalink)   Report Post  
Brian Mailman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question

**bg** wrote:eral months.
>
> It is about 5" deep, with about 1/4" of dark liquid on top. I am tempted to
> mix it all in and proceed with making dough.
>
> Or thinking of skimming it off first...
>
> What do you recommend pls?


I'm still stuck at the idea of someone thinking they need over a half
gallon of starter.

B/
  #8 (permalink)   Report Post  
**bg**
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie recipe herein

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> **bg** wrote:eral months.
> >
> > It is about 5" deep, with about 1/4" of dark liquid on top. I am

tempted to
> > mix it all in and proceed with making dough.
> >
> > Or thinking of skimming it off first...
> >
> > What do you recommend pls?

>
> I'm still stuck at the idea of someone thinking they need over a half
> gallon of starter.
>
> B/

___________________
Hey B,

I will be baking two large loaves and eight buns on Friday, using up all the
starter at one time, adding flour and water to the bit left in the bowl to
start new batch of starter...

Portions of the bake are roughly:

1 - 2 c (or more) starter
1 c all purpose flour
4 tbs oat bran
4 tbs soy flour
4 tbs whole wheat flour
4 tbs dark rye flour
2 tbs corn flour
2 tbs flax oil
1 tbs millet
1 tbs buckwheat groats
1 tbs lecithin
1 c (or so) water...to desired hydration, which varies

1 c = 250 ml

Have a nice day.

-bg-
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca


  #9 (permalink)   Report Post  
**bg**
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie recipe herein

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> **bg** wrote:eral months.
> >
> > It is about 5" deep, with about 1/4" of dark liquid on top. I am

tempted to
> > mix it all in and proceed with making dough.
> >
> > Or thinking of skimming it off first...
> >
> > What do you recommend pls?

>
> I'm still stuck at the idea of someone thinking they need over a half
> gallon of starter.
>
> B/

___________________
Hey B,

I will be baking two large loaves and eight buns on Friday, using up all the
starter at one time, adding flour and water to the bit left in the bowl to
start new batch of starter...

Portions of the bake are roughly:

1 - 2 c (or more) starter
1 c all purpose flour
4 tbs oat bran
4 tbs soy flour
4 tbs whole wheat flour
4 tbs dark rye flour
2 tbs corn flour
2 tbs flax oil
1 tbs millet
1 tbs buckwheat groats
1 tbs lecithin
1 c (or so) water...to desired hydration, which varies

1 c = 250 ml

Have a nice day.

-bg-
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca


  #10 (permalink)   Report Post  
williamwaller
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question

On 8/4/04 1:18 PM, "**bg**" > wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We got so busy over the lovely past few months here in Vancouver Canada,
> have done no baking for a while. Raining now, so gonna bake soon.
>
> I have created a grand batch of about 2 litres of lovely starter in a
> covered glass bowl, has been in the fridge for several months.
>
> It is about 5" deep, with about 1/4" of dark liquid on top. I am tempted to
> mix it all in and proceed with making dough.
>
> Or thinking of skimming it off first...
>
> What do you recommend pls?
>
> TIA
>
> -bg-
> www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca
>
> PS - Enjoy the (rough mixes) of the music if you go the website.
> We will be putting new mixes up by end of Sept.
> Feedback appreciated.
>

Pour off the liquid on top. Keep about about 2 tablespoons of that old
starter. Toss the rest. Add your reserved starter to about five or six
tablespoons of new flour+water mixture. Let it activate, then feed at least
twice before using. You should be ready to go in two or three days.

When starter gets as old as yours it becomes too acidic to build a loaf
with. So you re-balance with new flour+water, then feed a couple of cycles
before building a new dough.

Good luck!

Will
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
>
http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough




  #11 (permalink)   Report Post  
williamwaller
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question

On 8/4/04 1:18 PM, "**bg**" > wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We got so busy over the lovely past few months here in Vancouver Canada,
> have done no baking for a while. Raining now, so gonna bake soon.
>
> I have created a grand batch of about 2 litres of lovely starter in a
> covered glass bowl, has been in the fridge for several months.
>
> It is about 5" deep, with about 1/4" of dark liquid on top. I am tempted to
> mix it all in and proceed with making dough.
>
> Or thinking of skimming it off first...
>
> What do you recommend pls?
>
> TIA
>
> -bg-
> www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca
>
> PS - Enjoy the (rough mixes) of the music if you go the website.
> We will be putting new mixes up by end of Sept.
> Feedback appreciated.
>

Pour off the liquid on top. Keep about about 2 tablespoons of that old
starter. Toss the rest. Add your reserved starter to about five or six
tablespoons of new flour+water mixture. Let it activate, then feed at least
twice before using. You should be ready to go in two or three days.

When starter gets as old as yours it becomes too acidic to build a loaf
with. So you re-balance with new flour+water, then feed a couple of cycles
before building a new dough.

Good luck!

Will
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
>
http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough


  #12 (permalink)   Report Post  
ellen wickberg
 
Posts: n/a
Default Newbie question, partial self-answer

in article qY9Qc.11524$M95.3493@pd7tw1no, **bg** at
wrote on 4/8/04 11:31 AM:

> "**bg**" > wrote in message
> news:sL9Qc.11452$J06.160@pd7tw2no...
>> Hi,
>>
>> We got so busy over the lovely past few months here in Vancouver Canada,
>> have done no baking for a while. Raining now, so gonna bake soon.
>>
>> I have created a grand batch of about 2 litres of lovely starter in a
>> covered glass bowl, has been in the fridge for several months.
>>
>> It is about 5" deep, with about 1/4" of dark liquid on top. I am tempted

> to
>> mix it all in and proceed with making dough.
>>
>> Or thinking of skimming it off first...
>>
>> What do you recommend pls?
>>
>> TIA
>>
>> -bg-
>>
www.thelittlecanadaheadphoneband.ca
>>
>> PS - Enjoy the (rough mixes) of the music if you go the website.
>> We will be putting new mixes up by end of Sept.
>> Feedback appreciated.

> ____________________________
> Hi,
>
> Just discovered this layer is likely 'hooch'. The FAQ I read on it does not
> mention the rather unpleasant colour that my layer has.
>
> The article suggests taking some starter from underneath the layer and
> starting again, for a 'healthier' product.
>
> This is the first time I have heard inference of it being unhealthy. Does
> this undersireable aspect of it just refer to the alcohol content...
>
> Tks.
>
> -bg-
>>

>
>

"Healthier" refers to the health of the starter, not yours.
Ellen
--


  #15 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dee Randall
 
Posts: n/a
Default


> >

> That may be a really interesting "bread". Usually one uses a small amount
> of starter and a larger amount of flour.
> Ellen
> --
>

Are there any guidelines or "rules of thumb" or ratios that one might keep
in mind when considering how much starter to use or not overuse in a recipe?

Thanks,
Dee




  #16 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Dee Randall wrote:
>


> Are there any guidelines or "rules of thumb" or ratios that one might keep
> in mind when considering how much starter to use or not overuse in a recipe?
>


Yes and no or it all depends are all good answers to that
question. However, if you mean plain white sourdough bread, the
preponderence recipes are going to be close to 1 cup starter for
a two loaf recipe where the starter is in the pourable hydration
range.

Of course that any ratio is the most popular does not mean that
it is the best one. You need to know what method is being used.
Are we talking One stage, two stage, more? Also it is in the
mind of the observer. When I take out a spoon of storage starter
and grow it until I have bread dough, when exactly is it that I
stop growing start and begin making dough? Does it matter?

The way to evaluate a new recipe or procedure in the absense of
considerable experience is to try it out and see the result
rather than depending on something as unreliable as a rule of
thumb. If you want to learn how to bake bread, bake bread. Here
is a recipe:

I cup starter
2 cups water
about a tablespoon of salt, maybe less
about six cups of flour more or less

Bake this recipe twice a week for a year. Try different
procedures, different ways to get to the one cup of starter. Try
different kneading routines, different temperatures, different
grades of flour Etc. Change one thing at a time and keep notes.
At the end of a year , you will have learned a little about
baking bread.

On the other hand, there is nothing difficult at all about
bread. The Stone Age cultures baked bread, not a college degree
or high school diploma among them. It only gets difficult when
we feel that we must exactly control the outcomes and understand
the science in the process. Then we turn to authors that don't
really understand what is going on, but spin good tales. We
belive, we get confused - for no good reason.

Forget the bogus science. The two most important rules a

1. Keep good Karma in the kitchen

2. Don't **** off the Bread Faeries

Regards

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
  #17 (permalink)   Report Post  
Dee Randall
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dee Randall wrote:
> >

>
> > Are there any guidelines or "rules of thumb" or ratios that one might

keep
> > in mind when considering how much starter to use or not overuse in a

recipe?
> >

>
> Yes and no or it all depends are all good answers to that
> question. However, if you mean plain white sourdough bread, the
> preponderence recipes are going to be close to 1 cup starter for
> a two loaf recipe where the starter is in the pourable hydration
> range.
>
> Of course that any ratio is the most popular does not mean that
> it is the best one. You need to know what method is being used.
> Are we talking One stage, two stage, more? Also it is in the
> mind of the observer. When I take out a spoon of storage starter
> and grow it until I have bread dough, when exactly is it that I
> stop growing start and begin making dough? Does it matter?
>
> The way to evaluate a new recipe or procedure in the absense of
> considerable experience is to try it out and see the result
> rather than depending on something as unreliable as a rule of
> thumb. If you want to learn how to bake bread, bake bread. Here
> is a recipe:
>
> I cup starter
> 2 cups water
> about a tablespoon of salt, maybe less
> about six cups of flour more or less
>
> Bake this recipe twice a week for a year. Try different
> procedures, different ways to get to the one cup of starter. Try
> different kneading routines, different temperatures, different
> grades of flour Etc. Change one thing at a time and keep notes.
> At the end of a year , you will have learned a little about
> baking bread.
>
> On the other hand, there is nothing difficult at all about
> bread. The Stone Age cultures baked bread, not a college degree
> or high school diploma among them. It only gets difficult when
> we feel that we must exactly control the outcomes and understand
> the science in the process. Then we turn to authors that don't
> really understand what is going on, but spin good tales. We
> belive, we get confused - for no good reason.
>
> Forget the bogus science. The two most important rules a
>
> 1. Keep good Karma in the kitchen
>
> 2. Don't **** off the Bread Faeries


Thanks very much, Charles, for your thoughtful answer.
Dee


  #18 (permalink)   Report Post  
williamwaller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

\
> "Charles Perry" > wrote in message
> ...


<snip>

>> On the other hand, there is nothing difficult at all about
>> bread. The Stone Age cultures baked bread, not a college degree
>> or high school diploma among them.


We might add... especially since we have steam injected ovens, gas and
electric ranges, baker's math, flour mills and gram scales. (things that
took education to develop...)

I believe it was more challenging and took greater insight to bake bread
when the technology we take for granted is absent.

>>It only gets difficult when we feel that we must exactly control the outcomes
>> and understand the science in the process.


I suspect this is why we got past the Stone Age.

>>Then we turn to authors that don't really understand what is going on, but
>>spin good tales. We believe, we get confused - for no good reason.
>>


So the professionals: Nancy Silverton, Peter Reinhart et al. don't get it.
What's mo we are sheep.

>> Forget the bogus science. The two most important rules a
>>
>> 1. Keep good Karma in the kitchen
>>
>> 2. Don't **** off the Bread Faeries

>

Baaa!!!

Sorry Charles... I couldn't help myself.

Will




  #19 (permalink)   Report Post  
williamwaller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

\
> "Charles Perry" > wrote in message
> ...


<snip>

>> On the other hand, there is nothing difficult at all about
>> bread. The Stone Age cultures baked bread, not a college degree
>> or high school diploma among them.


We might add... especially since we have steam injected ovens, gas and
electric ranges, baker's math, flour mills and gram scales. (things that
took education to develop...)

I believe it was more challenging and took greater insight to bake bread
when the technology we take for granted is absent.

>>It only gets difficult when we feel that we must exactly control the outcomes
>> and understand the science in the process.


I suspect this is why we got past the Stone Age.

>>Then we turn to authors that don't really understand what is going on, but
>>spin good tales. We believe, we get confused - for no good reason.
>>


So the professionals: Nancy Silverton, Peter Reinhart et al. don't get it.
What's mo we are sheep.

>> Forget the bogus science. The two most important rules a
>>
>> 1. Keep good Karma in the kitchen
>>
>> 2. Don't **** off the Bread Faeries

>

Baaa!!!

Sorry Charles... I couldn't help myself.

Will




  #20 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
Posts: n/a
Default



williamwaller wrote:
>
>
> ...I suspect this is why we got past the Stone Age.


I don't argue a Luddite position. There are times when
technology and precision measurments are indispensable. I am
saying that it is easy to get on a quest for knowledge about
bread that can get in the way of learning how to actually make
bread.

However, in this hand I hold a loaf of Wonder Bread, it's great
stuff. It is made by high tech equiptment that is tended by the
best engineers and scienists that money can buy. They have every
tool known to keep the production process flawless. Over here, I
have a loaf of bread flown in from France(right now you know this
is fiction) from the bakery of M. Poliane. This loaf is baked in
a wood fired brick oven of an old design. The baker is not
allowed to even use a thermometer. He must know his oven well
enough to gauge the temperature by the look of the coals and the
feel of the heat on his hand. ( I read this on the Poliane
Website). Which bread do you want with your wine and cheese?

>
> So the professionals: Nancy Silverton, Peter Reinhart et al. don't get it.



The late James Beard wrote a great book called "Beard on Bread."
The book is famous for the misinformation about sourdough it
contained. Mr. Beard was a great cook, author, and eater.
Because he was regarded as almost a god by the foodies of the
time, his words on sourdough were treated as gospel. Worse, his
misinformation was quoted, cribed, and outright plagerized by
lesser writers for years. Derivitive writings are all over the
place. I believed what he wrote and it delayed my sucess with
sourdough for some time. Ignoring the sourdough advice, the book
is still a good read and still in print.


Nancy Silverton and Peter Reinhart are good authors of a more
recent vintage. I have all their books and have enjoyed reading
them. Now I wouldn't for a moment disparage either as a baker or
author or as a person, but I still think it would be a mistake to
treat every word they write as gospel. I have learned that
lesson. Anyway, nobody can be the expert in every aspect of
baking.

For example. I think if I wanted to have a serious discussion on
beginning a starter from scratch, I would rather have that
discussion with Samartha than Nancy. If, God forbid, I needed to
have information on how enzymes facillitate the chemical
transformations in a fermentation process, I would probably
consult Dick Adams before Peter Reinhart.

> What's mo we are sheep.


I did not say that. You did. But, there is no question that
many folks read things, get confused, and post here seeking
clarification. My point is simply that the best way to learn
about bread is to bake some.


> Baaa!!!
>

Then, on the other hand, if it bleets like a sheep...

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **


  #21 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
Posts: n/a
Default



williamwaller wrote:
>
>
> ...I suspect this is why we got past the Stone Age.


I don't argue a Luddite position. There are times when
technology and precision measurments are indispensable. I am
saying that it is easy to get on a quest for knowledge about
bread that can get in the way of learning how to actually make
bread.

However, in this hand I hold a loaf of Wonder Bread, it's great
stuff. It is made by high tech equiptment that is tended by the
best engineers and scienists that money can buy. They have every
tool known to keep the production process flawless. Over here, I
have a loaf of bread flown in from France(right now you know this
is fiction) from the bakery of M. Poliane. This loaf is baked in
a wood fired brick oven of an old design. The baker is not
allowed to even use a thermometer. He must know his oven well
enough to gauge the temperature by the look of the coals and the
feel of the heat on his hand. ( I read this on the Poliane
Website). Which bread do you want with your wine and cheese?

>
> So the professionals: Nancy Silverton, Peter Reinhart et al. don't get it.



The late James Beard wrote a great book called "Beard on Bread."
The book is famous for the misinformation about sourdough it
contained. Mr. Beard was a great cook, author, and eater.
Because he was regarded as almost a god by the foodies of the
time, his words on sourdough were treated as gospel. Worse, his
misinformation was quoted, cribed, and outright plagerized by
lesser writers for years. Derivitive writings are all over the
place. I believed what he wrote and it delayed my sucess with
sourdough for some time. Ignoring the sourdough advice, the book
is still a good read and still in print.


Nancy Silverton and Peter Reinhart are good authors of a more
recent vintage. I have all their books and have enjoyed reading
them. Now I wouldn't for a moment disparage either as a baker or
author or as a person, but I still think it would be a mistake to
treat every word they write as gospel. I have learned that
lesson. Anyway, nobody can be the expert in every aspect of
baking.

For example. I think if I wanted to have a serious discussion on
beginning a starter from scratch, I would rather have that
discussion with Samartha than Nancy. If, God forbid, I needed to
have information on how enzymes facillitate the chemical
transformations in a fermentation process, I would probably
consult Dick Adams before Peter Reinhart.

> What's mo we are sheep.


I did not say that. You did. But, there is no question that
many folks read things, get confused, and post here seeking
clarification. My point is simply that the best way to learn
about bread is to bake some.


> Baaa!!!
>

Then, on the other hand, if it bleets like a sheep...

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
  #22 (permalink)   Report Post  
williamwaller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 8/29/04 10:27 PM, "Charles Perry" > wrote:

>
>
> williamwaller wrote:
>>
>>
>> ...I suspect this is why we got past the Stone Age.

>
> I don't argue a Luddite position. There are times when
> technology and precision measurments are indispensable. I am
> saying that it is easy to get on a quest for knowledge about
> bread that can get in the way of learning how to actually make
> bread.


Every learning curve involves turbulence. Sometimes we need direct
experience, sometimes we need exposure to another perspective or
hand-me-down knowledge or a contrary opinion (DickA for example).
>
> However, in this hand I hold a loaf of Wonder Bread, it's great
> stuff. It is made by high tech equiptment that is tended by the
> best engineers and scienists that money can buy. They have every
> tool known to keep the production process flawless. Over here, I
> have a loaf of bread flown in from France(right now you know this
> is fiction) from the bakery of M. Poliane. This loaf is baked in
> a wood fired brick oven of an old design. The baker is not
> allowed to even use a thermometer. He must know his oven well
> enough to gauge the temperature by the look of the coals and the
> feel of the heat on his hand. ( I read this on the Poliane
> Website). Which bread do you want with your wine and cheese?
>

I choose M. Poilane. But truth be told... I would be just as satisfied with
your bread, Charles.

>> So the professionals: Nancy Silverton, Peter Reinhart et al. don't get it.


> The late James Beard wrote a great book called "Beard on Bread."
> The book is famous for the misinformation about sourdough it
> contained. Mr. Beard was a great cook, author, and eater.
> Because he was regarded as almost a god by the foodies of the
> time, his words on sourdough were treated as gospel. Worse, his
> misinformation was quoted, cribed, and outright plagerized by
> lesser writers for years. Derivitive writings are all over the
> place. I believed what he wrote and it delayed my sucess with
> sourdough for some time. Ignoring the sourdough advice, the book
> is still a good read and still in print.
>

I had/have Beard's book too. Fortunately I relied on the Tassajara Bread
book back then. Not that it was much better but I believe the monastery was
using an Alan Scott oven. That steered them in the right direction.

> Nancy Silverton and Peter Reinhart are good authors of a more
> recent vintage. I have all their books and have enjoyed reading
> them. Now I wouldn't for a moment disparage either as a baker or
> author or as a person, but I still think it would be a mistake to
> treat every word they write as gospel. I have learned that
> lesson. Anyway, nobody can be the expert in every aspect of
> baking.


> For example. I think if I wanted to have a serious discussion on
> beginning a starter from scratch, I would rather have that
> discussion with Samartha than Nancy. If, God forbid, I needed to
> have information on how enzymes facillitate the chemical
> transformations in a fermentation process, I would probably
> consult Dick Adams before Peter Reinhart.


True enough. Nancy's method of developing a starter from scratch is the most
complicated I have read. But if you consulted DickA for enzymatic issues
RoyB would be insulted.

>> What's mo we are sheep.

>
> I did not say that. You did. But, there is no question that
> many folks read things, get confused, and post here seeking
> clarification. My point is simply that the best way to learn
> about bread is to bake some.
>

True. But it was not a far-fetched impression...
>
>> Baaa!!!
>>

> Then, on the other hand, if it bleets like a sheep...
>

Or quacks like a duck...

> Regards,
>
> Charles


All the best,

Will

  #23 (permalink)   Report Post  
williamwaller
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 8/29/04 10:27 PM, "Charles Perry" > wrote:

>
>
> williamwaller wrote:
>>
>>
>> ...I suspect this is why we got past the Stone Age.

>
> I don't argue a Luddite position. There are times when
> technology and precision measurments are indispensable. I am
> saying that it is easy to get on a quest for knowledge about
> bread that can get in the way of learning how to actually make
> bread.


Every learning curve involves turbulence. Sometimes we need direct
experience, sometimes we need exposure to another perspective or
hand-me-down knowledge or a contrary opinion (DickA for example).
>
> However, in this hand I hold a loaf of Wonder Bread, it's great
> stuff. It is made by high tech equiptment that is tended by the
> best engineers and scienists that money can buy. They have every
> tool known to keep the production process flawless. Over here, I
> have a loaf of bread flown in from France(right now you know this
> is fiction) from the bakery of M. Poliane. This loaf is baked in
> a wood fired brick oven of an old design. The baker is not
> allowed to even use a thermometer. He must know his oven well
> enough to gauge the temperature by the look of the coals and the
> feel of the heat on his hand. ( I read this on the Poliane
> Website). Which bread do you want with your wine and cheese?
>

I choose M. Poilane. But truth be told... I would be just as satisfied with
your bread, Charles.

>> So the professionals: Nancy Silverton, Peter Reinhart et al. don't get it.


> The late James Beard wrote a great book called "Beard on Bread."
> The book is famous for the misinformation about sourdough it
> contained. Mr. Beard was a great cook, author, and eater.
> Because he was regarded as almost a god by the foodies of the
> time, his words on sourdough were treated as gospel. Worse, his
> misinformation was quoted, cribed, and outright plagerized by
> lesser writers for years. Derivitive writings are all over the
> place. I believed what he wrote and it delayed my sucess with
> sourdough for some time. Ignoring the sourdough advice, the book
> is still a good read and still in print.
>

I had/have Beard's book too. Fortunately I relied on the Tassajara Bread
book back then. Not that it was much better but I believe the monastery was
using an Alan Scott oven. That steered them in the right direction.

> Nancy Silverton and Peter Reinhart are good authors of a more
> recent vintage. I have all their books and have enjoyed reading
> them. Now I wouldn't for a moment disparage either as a baker or
> author or as a person, but I still think it would be a mistake to
> treat every word they write as gospel. I have learned that
> lesson. Anyway, nobody can be the expert in every aspect of
> baking.


> For example. I think if I wanted to have a serious discussion on
> beginning a starter from scratch, I would rather have that
> discussion with Samartha than Nancy. If, God forbid, I needed to
> have information on how enzymes facillitate the chemical
> transformations in a fermentation process, I would probably
> consult Dick Adams before Peter Reinhart.


True enough. Nancy's method of developing a starter from scratch is the most
complicated I have read. But if you consulted DickA for enzymatic issues
RoyB would be insulted.

>> What's mo we are sheep.

>
> I did not say that. You did. But, there is no question that
> many folks read things, get confused, and post here seeking
> clarification. My point is simply that the best way to learn
> about bread is to bake some.
>

True. But it was not a far-fetched impression...
>
>> Baaa!!!
>>

> Then, on the other hand, if it bleets like a sheep...
>

Or quacks like a duck...

> Regards,
>
> Charles


All the best,

Will

  #24 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
Posts: n/a
Default



williamwaller wrote:
>
>


> I choose M. Poilane. But truth be told... I would be just as satisfied with
> your bread, Charles.
>

Very nice of you to say that , Will. I am almost never satisfied
with my own bread. You would have to hope for a good day.

> True enough. Nancy's method of developing a starter from scratch is the most
> complicated I have read. But if you consulted DickA for enzymatic issues
> RoyB would be insulted.
>


I don't know. Somehow from the posts that I have read over the
years, I formed the impression that Roy was expert in commercial
production systems and that Dick had some specialization with
enzymes. They will have to speak for themselves. I just picked
a couple of names to illustrate a point of discussion. No
offence meant to experts not mentioned.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
  #25 (permalink)   Report Post  
Charles Perry
 
Posts: n/a
Default



williamwaller wrote:
>
>


> I choose M. Poilane. But truth be told... I would be just as satisfied with
> your bread, Charles.
>

Very nice of you to say that , Will. I am almost never satisfied
with my own bread. You would have to hope for a good day.

> True enough. Nancy's method of developing a starter from scratch is the most
> complicated I have read. But if you consulted DickA for enzymatic issues
> RoyB would be insulted.
>


I don't know. Somehow from the posts that I have read over the
years, I formed the impression that Roy was expert in commercial
production systems and that Dick had some specialization with
enzymes. They will have to speak for themselves. I just picked
a couple of names to illustrate a point of discussion. No
offence meant to experts not mentioned.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
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