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Artisanal crumb
I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some
breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it. I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks. Fred Foodie Forums http://www.foodieforums.com |
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"Fred" wrote in message ...
> I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb > I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at any rate.) >I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have > I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks. You might want to try a wetter dough with at least 70% hydration. -Mike |
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>
>I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some >breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it. >I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed >and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at >any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have >I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks. > >Fred The only method I know works is to use hydrations of 80% or more and intensive dough development by use of long, fast mixes and/or Stretch 'n' Fold. A very hot oven helps, a little. John |
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On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:57:50 -0500, "Fred" >
wrote: >I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some >breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it. >I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed >and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at >any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have >I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks. > >Fred >Foodie Forums >http://www.foodieforums.com > > Hey Fred, I would add to the good thoughts you have already seen: Generally, higher protein flours yield a finer crumb. Lower protein flours produce a coarser crumb. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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"Fred" > wrote in message ... > I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some > breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it. > I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed > and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at > any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have > I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks. > > Fred > Foodie Forums > http://www.foodieforums.com > You have to minimize the handling, particularly after the first rise. Pour the dough from the bowl onto a lightly floured board, do not punch down--you are trying to preserve the air bubbles that you have created during fermentation. Do not knead, etc., Cut the dough into the pieces that you want and shape with very gentle hands and an economy of handling. More handling equals finer crumb. Janet |
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"Fred" > wrote in message ... > I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some > breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it. > I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed > and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at > any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have > I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks. > > Fred > Foodie Forums > http://www.foodieforums.com > Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I could live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over mixing. I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25 minute mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll go back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%. So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input. Fred Foodie Forums http://www.foodieforums.com |
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"Fred" > wrote in message ... snip > > Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's > almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I could > live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked > about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over mixing. > I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25 minute > mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried > mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the > "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after > mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll go > back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%. > So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will > spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned > loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input. > > Fred > Foodie Forums > http://www.foodieforums.com > When I said pour the dough, I meant that instead of 'punching the dough down,' you simply tip the bowl of dough over the floured board and allow the risen dough to ooze out. You don't have to have a particularly high hydration dough to do this, normal hydration will work. But you do have to be careful that you are not making an overly dry dough--you know, one of those 'knead until no longer sticky' things. Too often we add too much additional flour during the kneading stage and the dough is really too dry. You're looking for a dough that doesn't goop up your hands or stick to them if you quickly stab or pat at it. When you make your dough into pieces for individual loaves, cut directly downward instead of dragging a knife through it. Lightly flour your cut line if that helps. Gently pat the dough into the shape that you want and then gently pull the sides down and pinch underneath to form a tight gluten skin to help the dough resist outward sag. You can even use the traditional method of rolling the dough ball under the palm to shape as long as you do it gently and quickly. Janet |
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"Fred" > wrote in message ... > > Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's > almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I could > live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked > about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over mixing. > I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25 minute > mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried > mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the > "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after > mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll go > back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%. > So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will > spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned > loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input. > > Fred You don't need 25 minutes of mixing/kneading. That's going to make a tight crumb. 4-6 minutes should do it for kneading by machine. Janet > Foodie Forums > http://www.foodieforums.com > > > |
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"Fred" wrote in message ...
> Let's go through some of these. >If I get the dough moist enough that it's > almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. Even at 80% hydration your loaves shouldn't look like pancakes, but you really don't need to go that high to get larger holes, though at 80% it's pretty much a guarantee you'll get them. > I suppose I could > live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. I don't think anyone suggested pan loaves, not that there is anything wrong with pan loaves. >Someone talked > about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. Janet mentioned pouring. When working with wetter doughs they will come out of the bowl used for the first rise by just tilting the bowl and letting the dough "pour" out onto the work surface. It doesn't exactly flow. It's not pouring in the same way a cake or pancake batter would pour. It's significantly thicker than that even at 80% hydration. >I'll go > back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%. > So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will > spread like batter? Handling and shaping wetter dough can take some practice. Over a couple of years I slowly increased the amount of water I had in my dough. I wouldn't increase the hydration until I felt comfortable working with the dough at the current hydration level. I still can't shape "normal" loaves once I get past the high 60s or 70%. You might want to try making some loaves with a more free shape like ciabatta when first using wetter dough. -Mike |
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"Fred" > wrote in message ... snip > > Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's > almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I could > live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked > about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over mixing. > I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25 minute > mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried > mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the > "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after > mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll go > back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%. > So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will > spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned > loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input. > > Fred > Foodie Forums > http://www.foodieforums.com > When I said pour the dough, I meant that instead of 'punching the dough down,' you simply tip the bowl of dough over the floured board and allow the risen dough to ooze out. You don't have to have a particularly high hydration dough to do this, normal hydration will work. But you do have to be careful that you are not making an overly dry dough--you know, one of those 'knead until no longer sticky' things. Too often we add too much additional flour during the kneading stage and the dough is really too dry. You're looking for a dough that doesn't goop up your hands or stick to them if you quickly stab or pat at it. When you make your dough into pieces for individual loaves, cut directly downward instead of dragging a knife through it. Lightly flour your cut line if that helps. Gently pat the dough into the shape that you want and then gently pull the sides down and pinch underneath to form a tight gluten skin to help the dough resist outward sag. You can even use the traditional method of rolling the dough ball under the palm to shape as long as you do it gently and quickly. Janet |
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"Fred" > wrote in message ... > > Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's > almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I could > live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked > about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over mixing. > I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25 minute > mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried > mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the > "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after > mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll go > back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%. > So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will > spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned > loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input. > > Fred You don't need 25 minutes of mixing/kneading. That's going to make a tight crumb. 4-6 minutes should do it for kneading by machine. Janet > Foodie Forums > http://www.foodieforums.com > > > |
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"Fred" wrote in message ...
> Let's go through some of these. >If I get the dough moist enough that it's > almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. Even at 80% hydration your loaves shouldn't look like pancakes, but you really don't need to go that high to get larger holes, though at 80% it's pretty much a guarantee you'll get them. > I suppose I could > live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. I don't think anyone suggested pan loaves, not that there is anything wrong with pan loaves. >Someone talked > about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. Janet mentioned pouring. When working with wetter doughs they will come out of the bowl used for the first rise by just tilting the bowl and letting the dough "pour" out onto the work surface. It doesn't exactly flow. It's not pouring in the same way a cake or pancake batter would pour. It's significantly thicker than that even at 80% hydration. >I'll go > back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%. > So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will > spread like batter? Handling and shaping wetter dough can take some practice. Over a couple of years I slowly increased the amount of water I had in my dough. I wouldn't increase the hydration until I felt comfortable working with the dough at the current hydration level. I still can't shape "normal" loaves once I get past the high 60s or 70%. You might want to try making some loaves with a more free shape like ciabatta when first using wetter dough. -Mike |
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On 8/29/04 9:13 PM, "Fred" > wrote:
> > "Fred" > wrote in message > ... >> I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some >> breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it. >> I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed >> and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid > at >> any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What > have >> I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks. >> >> Fred >> Foodie Forums >> http://www.foodieforums.com >> > > Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's > almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I could > live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked > about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over mixing. > I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25 minute > mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried > mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the > "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after > mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll go > back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%. > So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will > spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned > loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input. > > Fred > Foodie Forums > http://www.foodieforums.com > > Fred, Janet and Kenneth offered good advice. Don't handle the dough. Ease it from it's proofing container and minimally shape. To which, I would add, be sure to provide a warm final proof environment around 85-90 degrees F. Kenneth indicated low gluten flour as in: all purpose flour (as opposed to bread flour). The rye, spelt and whole wheat flours add husk material which punctures the crumb and degasses the bread. I do OK with this at 68 to 70 percent hydration (and use lots of flour when I handle the dough). I feed the starter twice the day before. You need an active starter and lots of it to push this loaf. I don't mix much or knead much either. A long cool fermentation replaces the mechanical gymnastics (not to be confused with warm final proof). Someone else mentioned a hot oven. I'd shoot for at least 475. 500 F. is better. And I'd back off the salt a bit. Use half what you usually use. Have your good olive oil at the ready... you'll get there. Will _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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williamwaller wrote:
> Kenneth indicated low gluten flour as in: all purpose flour (as opposed to > bread flour). The rye, spelt and whole wheat flours add husk material which > punctures the crumb and degasses the bread. Use white spelt - no husk! |
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Here is a fine opportunity for the expert advisor to punctuate his
prose with graphics. An easy way is to scan a slice on the platen of a scanner, and put the result in evidence in web space to be referenced in one's post(s). www.zippyimages.com is good for that, probably the easiest among the many possibilities. Regards per cent hydration, consider this conundrum: If I make my dough to 80% without regard to say, the flour's normal 14% moisture content, the actual hydration will be considerably higher than I suspect. If the normal 14% is conventionally be ignored when stating the bakers' per cent hydration, how should one manage the potential errors due to moisture adsorption in a humid atmosphere (which could take the base moisture content to 21%,=20 I understand), or moisture depletion due to desiccation in an arid=20 region? For instance, actual per cent hydration obtained by adding .8 pounds of water to 1.0 pound of flour which came at ~14% moisture, which=20 soaked up another ~7% of moisture, would be closer to 130% than to 80%. I would have different results with my soggy flour, I suspect, than do the Mountain People and the Desert People. I expect that this thread's respondents are weighing. Measurement in cups, which have been precalibrated by weighing the amount of=20 flour contained, may fail in an additional way -- as the flour sits = around and soaks up moisture, it settles down and becomes more dense. In this vein, I should like to ask how the big-hole folks are coming along with the "window-pane" test. ??? --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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>
>Here is a fine opportunity for the expert advisor to punctuate his >prose with graphics. An easy way is to scan a slice on the platen >of a scanner, and put the result in evidence in web space to be >referenced in one's post(s). www.zippyimages.com is good >for that, probably the easiest among the many possibilities. http://www.zippyimages.com/files/100448/DSC00758.jpg is a picture, which I may have posted before, my short term memory is not the most accurate of tools. It's the sourdough Ciabatta for which I posted a recipe a few months back. >Regards per cent hydration, consider this conundrum: If I make >my dough to 80% without regard to say, the flour's normal 14% >moisture content, the actual hydration will be considerably higher >than I suspect. If the normal 14% is conventionally be ignored >when stating the bakers' per cent hydration, how should one >manage the potential errors due to moisture adsorption in a humid >atmosphere (which could take the base moisture content to 21%,=20 >I understand), or moisture depletion due to desiccation in an arid=20 >region? I don't see it as a conundrum, just one of the many variables to be taken into account when making bread. The major problem is not the allowance for moisture content variations, you just add more flour or water, but describing the viscosity, texture and "feel" of the dough the recipe is describing so that someone making the bread for the first time will have something for which to aim. Given extremes of moisture content that may vary from, say, 7% to your quoted maximum of 21% (chapter and verse for that one would be appreciated, I've never seen a figure that high, you live and learn) the "actual" hydration of a dough made from 1 kilo of flour, at a nominal 14% moisture, and 800 gm water would be a total water/dry matter ratio of 940/860. At 21% the ratio would be 1010/790 and at 7% the ratio would be 870/930. So, "actual" hydration, including flour moisture content, could range from 127% to 93% with a median of 109%. And if you think that makes casual discussions of an "80% hydration" bread imprecise you're perfectly correct. Any formula makes assumptions and a flour moisture content the same as or close to the flour used to develop the forrmula in the first place is one of those assumptions. > >For instance, actual per cent hydration obtained by adding .8 pounds >of water to 1.0 pound of flour which came at ~14% moisture, which=20 >soaked up another ~7% of moisture, would be closer to 130% than >to 80%. I would have different results with my soggy flour, I suspect, >than do the Mountain People and the Desert People. > >I expect that this thread's respondents are weighing. Measurement >in cups, which have been precalibrated by weighing the amount of=20 >flour contained, may fail in an additional way -- as the flour sits = >around >and soaks up moisture, it settles down and becomes more dense. > >In this vein, I should like to ask how the big-hole folks are coming >along with the "window-pane" test. > I don't know if you're employing irony here but all my "high hydration", intensively worked doughs "windowpane" very nicely but then, I've never been convinced of the power of the "windowpane test" to provide a reliable prediction of bread quality. |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message=20 ... > http://www.zippyimages.com/files/100448/DSC00758.jpg=20 > is a picture, which I may have posted before, my short term memory is = not the > most accurate of tools. It's the sourdough Ciabatta for which I = posted a recipe=20 > a few months back. Well done! Well, the photo is a bit big for my screen, so it takes a = bit of work to see it all at once. Your article can be retrieved from Google: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...00000593@mb-m= 04.aol.com > ... I don't know if you're employing irony here but all my "high = hydration", > intensively worked doughs "windowpane" very nicely but then, I've = never been > convinced of the power of the "windowpane test" to provide a reliable = > prediction of bread quality. Of course I am! It would be a good thing to develop a way to = demonstrate windopaneing at zippyimages. Your good result may very well not the the = same as I would expect mine to be. A good windowpane result, and the amount = of machine kneading you describe, implies a well-developed dough. = Otherwise I could suppose that dough can develop itself during a long sit in the = fridge, as reported by some others, but I would not want to bet on it. -- DickA |
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"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message=20 ... > http://www.zippyimages.com/files/100448/DSC00758.jpg=20 > is a picture, which I may have posted before, my short term memory is = not the > most accurate of tools. It's the sourdough Ciabatta for which I = posted a recipe=20 > a few months back. Well done! Well, the photo is a bit big for my screen, so it takes a = bit of work to see it all at once. Your article can be retrieved from Google: http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...00000593@mb-m= 04.aol.com > ... I don't know if you're employing irony here but all my "high = hydration", > intensively worked doughs "windowpane" very nicely but then, I've = never been > convinced of the power of the "windowpane test" to provide a reliable = > prediction of bread quality. Of course I am! It would be a good thing to develop a way to = demonstrate windopaneing at zippyimages. Your good result may very well not the the = same as I would expect mine to be. A good windowpane result, and the amount = of machine kneading you describe, implies a well-developed dough. = Otherwise I could suppose that dough can develop itself during a long sit in the = fridge, as reported by some others, but I would not want to bet on it. -- DickA |
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Here is a fine opportunity for the expert advisor to punctuate his
prose with graphics. An easy way is to scan a slice on the platen of a scanner, and put the result in evidence in web space to be referenced in one's post(s). www.zippyimages.com is good for that, probably the easiest among the many possibilities. Regards per cent hydration, consider this conundrum: If I make my dough to 80% without regard to say, the flour's normal 14% moisture content, the actual hydration will be considerably higher than I suspect. If the normal 14% is conventionally be ignored when stating the bakers' per cent hydration, how should one manage the potential errors due to moisture adsorption in a humid atmosphere (which could take the base moisture content to 21%,=20 I understand), or moisture depletion due to desiccation in an arid=20 region? For instance, actual per cent hydration obtained by adding .8 pounds of water to 1.0 pound of flour which came at ~14% moisture, which=20 soaked up another ~7% of moisture, would be closer to 130% than to 80%. I would have different results with my soggy flour, I suspect, than do the Mountain People and the Desert People. I expect that this thread's respondents are weighing. Measurement in cups, which have been precalibrated by weighing the amount of=20 flour contained, may fail in an additional way -- as the flour sits = around and soaks up moisture, it settles down and becomes more dense. In this vein, I should like to ask how the big-hole folks are coming along with the "window-pane" test. ??? --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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> > > > Fred, > > Janet and Kenneth offered good advice. Don't handle the dough. Ease it from > it's proofing container and minimally shape. To which, I would add, be sure > to provide a warm final proof environment around 85-90 degrees F. > > Kenneth indicated low gluten flour as in: all purpose flour (as opposed to > bread flour). The rye, spelt and whole wheat flours add husk material which > punctures the crumb and degasses the bread. > > I do OK with this at 68 to 70 percent hydration (and use lots of flour when > I handle the dough). I feed the starter twice the day before. You need an > active starter and lots of it to push this loaf. I wonder how much that is? 20 %, 30%, 40% starter of final dough? Any suggestions? > I don't mix much or knead > much either. A long cool fermentation replaces the mechanical gymnastics > (not to be confused with warm final proof). > > Someone else mentioned a hot oven. I'd shoot for at least 475. 500 F. is > better. And I'd back off the salt a bit. Use half what you usually use. > > Have your good olive oil at the ready... you'll get there. > > Will > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough > |
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williamwaller wrote:
> Kenneth indicated low gluten flour as in: all purpose flour (as opposed to > bread flour). The rye, spelt and whole wheat flours add husk material which > punctures the crumb and degasses the bread. Use white spelt - no husk! |
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> > > > Fred, > > Janet and Kenneth offered good advice. Don't handle the dough. Ease it from > it's proofing container and minimally shape. To which, I would add, be sure > to provide a warm final proof environment around 85-90 degrees F. > > Kenneth indicated low gluten flour as in: all purpose flour (as opposed to > bread flour). The rye, spelt and whole wheat flours add husk material which > punctures the crumb and degasses the bread. > > I do OK with this at 68 to 70 percent hydration (and use lots of flour when > I handle the dough). I feed the starter twice the day before. You need an > active starter and lots of it to push this loaf. I wonder how much that is? 20 %, 30%, 40% starter of final dough? Any suggestions? > I don't mix much or knead > much either. A long cool fermentation replaces the mechanical gymnastics > (not to be confused with warm final proof). > > Someone else mentioned a hot oven. I'd shoot for at least 475. 500 F. is > better. And I'd back off the salt a bit. Use half what you usually use. > > Have your good olive oil at the ready... you'll get there. > > Will > > > > _______________________________________________ > > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough > |
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>> I could suppose that dough can develop itself during a long sit in the =
>> fridge, as >> reported by some others, but I would not want to bet on it. >> >> -- >> DickA > > I've never known gluten development to arise spontaneously, it requires > mechanical work input. Unless, of course, you've trained your Fridge Fairies > to > while away their time by kneading dough. > > John Well... AP or bread flours actually do very well at developing gluten with sufficient time (at least mine do). I flogged dough for years before coming to this realization. My first KitchenAid, the unfortunate facilitator of my early enthusiasm, was retired with worn transfer gears from developing gluten. KitchenAid #2 will survive longer. A little mixing and 2 or 3 minutes of kneading is wonderfully sufficient... even for 100% whole grain loaves. It's a more relaxed way of bread making, and perhaps not so comforting, given many of us have invested several hundred $$$ in dough hook action, but it is TRUE. Will |
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On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:18:03 -0500, williamwaller
> wrote: >but >it is TRUE. Hi Will, Indeed, it is... Also, in my experience, one result of gluten development by hydration (just mixing long enough that there are no pockets of dry flour) is that the crumb is coarser. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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On Mon, 30 Aug 2004 13:18:03 -0500, williamwaller
> wrote: >but >it is TRUE. Hi Will, Indeed, it is... Also, in my experience, one result of gluten development by hydration (just mixing long enough that there are no pockets of dry flour) is that the crumb is coarser. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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On 8/30/04 2:20 PM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote:
>> >> Well, no... Gluten can be developed mechanically as you mention, >> chemically (see supermarket bread labels for more on that), and by >> hydration alone: Just mix some flour with water, and wait. >> >> All the best, >> >> -- >> Kenneth >> > Are you seriously saying that dough merely needs to be mixed and left and that > it will, without further mechanical input, develop a gluten elasticity and > structure that is good enough to make bread worth eating? > > John John, YES! You can let hydrolysis do the heavy lifting and enjoy excellent levain bread. This is not quite so true with commercially yeasted breads. That form of yeast works too quickly (unless severely retarded) for the gluten to develop so you need to mechanically develop the dough. High gluten/high protein flours and mechanical kneading (and aeration for that matter) go hand-in-hand as technical "improvements" to facilitate factory produced bread. I don't mean "factory produced" in a pejorative sense here. It took me longer to accept lower protein flours than hydrolysis. But that subject would be another thread. Will > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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Hello from Germany. I'm not exactly sure, what you mean by "artisanal"
but I think, you mean a more rustic bread with irregularities in the dough and a chewy texture. At our bakery in Germany we like to use a retardation process to obtain this. This means a slow fermentation period and rather cool temperatures. In our Pave de France - a charming light white bread with olive oil and a lot of salt we start the dough at least 24 hours before baking it with only about 0,5% of commercial yeast. A new sourdough starter will take longer of course. Most people think we use chemical substances in professional breads to make them so airy. But it's all in the technique, the ingredients are available to everyone. And we use "old dough" a lot. The best recipes start with "Buy a chunk of old dough from your baker" :-) Remember: Due to the large amounts of dough that are handled at the bakery (the dough machine can produce batches of approx. 100 lb of dough) it might not work for perfectly for small amounts too. So downsizing recipes is a little tricky. Good luck. |
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On 8/31/04 9:15 AM, "Konny K" > wrote:
> Hello from Germany. I'm not exactly sure, what you mean by "artisanal" > but I think, you mean a more rustic bread with irregularities in the > dough and a chewy texture. At our bakery in Germany we like to use a > retardation process to obtain this. This means a slow fermentation > period and rather cool temperatures. Konny, There has been a lot of discussion on this list about retardation, mostly for flavor benefits, but lately for crumb. In your view, what is going on during the slow, cooler fermentation? >In our Pave de France - a > charming light white bread with olive oil and a lot of salt we start > the dough at least 24 hours before baking it with only about 0,5% of > commercial yeast. A new sourdough starter will take longer of course. > Most people think we use chemical substances in professional breads to > make them so airy. But it's all in the technique, the ingredients are > available to everyone. And we use "old dough" a lot. Would you post an old dough recipe for us. We can scale it to our needs. Thanks... >The best recipes > start with "Buy a chunk of old dough from your baker" :-) Remember: > Due to the large amounts of dough that are handled at the bakery (the > dough machine can produce batches of approx. 100 lb of dough) it might > not work for perfectly for small amounts too. So downsizing recipes is > a little tricky. Good luck. > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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williamwaller > wrote in message news:<mailman.20.1093962849.1141.rec.food.sourdoug >...
> On 8/31/04 9:15 AM, "Konny K" > wrote: > > > Hello from Germany. I'm not exactly sure, what you mean by "artisanal" > > but I think, you mean a more rustic bread with irregularities in the > > dough and a chewy texture. At our bakery in Germany we like to use a > > retardation process to obtain this. This means a slow fermentation > > period and rather cool temperatures. > > Konny, > > There has been a lot of discussion on this list about retardation, mostly > for flavor benefits, but lately for crumb. In your view, what is going on > during the slow, cooler fermentation? > What I believe is, that the gluten strands have a chance to relax perfectly and get more time to "make out" so to speak. > Would you post an old dough recipe for us. We can scale it to our needs. > Thanks... > A basic old dough will consist of a white flour, a few crumbs of yeast and enough water to make a stiff ball. Let it sit for 4 to 12 hours and it's ready to go. You can make a lot of breads with it, giving them a thin crust and a better flavor. It's not to be mistaken for the sourdough method, which gives a different texture to the bread. The quality of flour will vary a great deal. When I tried to make my recipes with american flour, they didn't work, because american flour will absorb more water than the german white-bread-flour. Sometimes you have to "destroy" the flour by pouring boiling water over it, if the recipe demands it. The american "unbleached all-purpose" flour really is a beautiful flour to make robust white breads with, that have a crunchy outside and a chewy texture. In Germany we are used to weaker flours, but we are using imported flours from Italy and France too. As a little side note, and this is just from my personal experience with ambitious home bakers: In my opnion, the biggest mistakes are probably made during fermentation. A lot of people handle the dough too much, checking the dough every minute, letting air get to the dough, putting their fingers into it, etc... That would be ill-advised. For example, if you're using a sourdough starter, it can build a crust. Don't punch it down, just wait and later remove it and use only the soft part of the starter inside. KK |
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williamwaller > wrote in message news:<mailman.20.1093962849.1141.rec.food.sourdoug >...
> On 8/31/04 9:15 AM, "Konny K" > wrote: > > > Hello from Germany. I'm not exactly sure, what you mean by "artisanal" > > but I think, you mean a more rustic bread with irregularities in the > > dough and a chewy texture. At our bakery in Germany we like to use a > > retardation process to obtain this. This means a slow fermentation > > period and rather cool temperatures. > > Konny, > > There has been a lot of discussion on this list about retardation, mostly > for flavor benefits, but lately for crumb. In your view, what is going on > during the slow, cooler fermentation? > What I believe is, that the gluten strands have a chance to relax perfectly and get more time to "make out" so to speak. > Would you post an old dough recipe for us. We can scale it to our needs. > Thanks... > A basic old dough will consist of a white flour, a few crumbs of yeast and enough water to make a stiff ball. Let it sit for 4 to 12 hours and it's ready to go. You can make a lot of breads with it, giving them a thin crust and a better flavor. It's not to be mistaken for the sourdough method, which gives a different texture to the bread. The quality of flour will vary a great deal. When I tried to make my recipes with american flour, they didn't work, because american flour will absorb more water than the german white-bread-flour. Sometimes you have to "destroy" the flour by pouring boiling water over it, if the recipe demands it. The american "unbleached all-purpose" flour really is a beautiful flour to make robust white breads with, that have a crunchy outside and a chewy texture. In Germany we are used to weaker flours, but we are using imported flours from Italy and France too. As a little side note, and this is just from my personal experience with ambitious home bakers: In my opnion, the biggest mistakes are probably made during fermentation. A lot of people handle the dough too much, checking the dough every minute, letting air get to the dough, putting their fingers into it, etc... That would be ill-advised. For example, if you're using a sourdough starter, it can build a crust. Don't punch it down, just wait and later remove it and use only the soft part of the starter inside. KK |
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On Sun, 29 Aug 2004 13:57:50 -0500, "Fred" >
wrote: >I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some >breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it. >I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed >and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at >any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have >I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks. > >Fred >Foodie Forums >http://www.foodieforums.com > > Hey Fred, I would add to the good thoughts you have already seen: Generally, higher protein flours yield a finer crumb. Lower protein flours produce a coarser crumb. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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"Fred" > wrote in message ... > I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some > breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it. > I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed > and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at > any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have > I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks. > > Fred > Foodie Forums > http://www.foodieforums.com > You have to minimize the handling, particularly after the first rise. Pour the dough from the bowl onto a lightly floured board, do not punch down--you are trying to preserve the air bubbles that you have created during fermentation. Do not knead, etc., Cut the dough into the pieces that you want and shape with very gentle hands and an economy of handling. More handling equals finer crumb. Janet |
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"Fred" > wrote in message ... > I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some > breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it. > I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed > and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid at > any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What have > I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks. > > Fred > Foodie Forums > http://www.foodieforums.com > Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I could live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over mixing. I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25 minute mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll go back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%. So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input. Fred Foodie Forums http://www.foodieforums.com |
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On 8/29/04 9:13 PM, "Fred" > wrote:
> > "Fred" > wrote in message > ... >> I'm still trying to reproduce the large-hole artisanal crumb I see in some >> breads. Truthfully, I don't care for it but I want to know how to do it. >> I've tried baking right after fermentation, I've undermixed and overmixed >> and underproofed and overproofed, I've even tried wet doughs (65% liquid > at >> any rate.) I get my small, uniform and lovely crumb every time. What > have >> I not done? Or what have I done wrong? Thanks. >> >> Fred >> Foodie Forums >> http://www.foodieforums.com >> > > Let's go through some of these. If I get the dough moist enough that it's > almost a batter my hearth loaves will look like pancakes. I suppose I could > live with panned loaves but that isn't what I had in mind. Someone talked > about "pouring" a dough. My doughs don't pour. I have tried over mixing. > I've even gone to the point of breaking the protein strands with a 25 minute > mix. I haven't tried using a lower gluten flour but I've certainly tried > mixing rye, spelt and whole wheat flours which certainly decreased the > "average" gluten in the dough. I've tried making up the dough right after > mixing and then baking it directly without deflating and proofing. I'll go > back to the well on the high hydration idea because I've never gone to 80%. > So how do you get a normal looking loaf from a dough that is so wet it will > spread like batter? I want to conquer this without resorting to a panned > loaf. Thanks to all of you for the input. > > Fred > Foodie Forums > http://www.foodieforums.com > > Fred, Janet and Kenneth offered good advice. Don't handle the dough. Ease it from it's proofing container and minimally shape. To which, I would add, be sure to provide a warm final proof environment around 85-90 degrees F. Kenneth indicated low gluten flour as in: all purpose flour (as opposed to bread flour). The rye, spelt and whole wheat flours add husk material which punctures the crumb and degasses the bread. I do OK with this at 68 to 70 percent hydration (and use lots of flour when I handle the dough). I feed the starter twice the day before. You need an active starter and lots of it to push this loaf. I don't mix much or knead much either. A long cool fermentation replaces the mechanical gymnastics (not to be confused with warm final proof). Someone else mentioned a hot oven. I'd shoot for at least 475. 500 F. is better. And I'd back off the salt a bit. Use half what you usually use. Have your good olive oil at the ready... you'll get there. Will _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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>> I could suppose that dough can develop itself during a long sit in the =
>> fridge, as >> reported by some others, but I would not want to bet on it. >> >> -- >> DickA > > I've never known gluten development to arise spontaneously, it requires > mechanical work input. Unless, of course, you've trained your Fridge Fairies > to > while away their time by kneading dough. > > John Well... AP or bread flours actually do very well at developing gluten with sufficient time (at least mine do). I flogged dough for years before coming to this realization. My first KitchenAid, the unfortunate facilitator of my early enthusiasm, was retired with worn transfer gears from developing gluten. KitchenAid #2 will survive longer. A little mixing and 2 or 3 minutes of kneading is wonderfully sufficient... even for 100% whole grain loaves. It's a more relaxed way of bread making, and perhaps not so comforting, given many of us have invested several hundred $$$ in dough hook action, but it is TRUE. Will |
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On 8/30/04 2:20 PM, "Wcsjohn" > wrote:
>> >> Well, no... Gluten can be developed mechanically as you mention, >> chemically (see supermarket bread labels for more on that), and by >> hydration alone: Just mix some flour with water, and wait. >> >> All the best, >> >> -- >> Kenneth >> > Are you seriously saying that dough merely needs to be mixed and left and that > it will, without further mechanical input, develop a gluten elasticity and > structure that is good enough to make bread worth eating? > > John John, YES! You can let hydrolysis do the heavy lifting and enjoy excellent levain bread. This is not quite so true with commercially yeasted breads. That form of yeast works too quickly (unless severely retarded) for the gluten to develop so you need to mechanically develop the dough. High gluten/high protein flours and mechanical kneading (and aeration for that matter) go hand-in-hand as technical "improvements" to facilitate factory produced bread. I don't mean "factory produced" in a pejorative sense here. It took me longer to accept lower protein flours than hydrolysis. But that subject would be another thread. Will > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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On 8/31/04 9:15 AM, "Konny K" > wrote:
> Hello from Germany. I'm not exactly sure, what you mean by "artisanal" > but I think, you mean a more rustic bread with irregularities in the > dough and a chewy texture. At our bakery in Germany we like to use a > retardation process to obtain this. This means a slow fermentation > period and rather cool temperatures. Konny, There has been a lot of discussion on this list about retardation, mostly for flavor benefits, but lately for crumb. In your view, what is going on during the slow, cooler fermentation? >In our Pave de France - a > charming light white bread with olive oil and a lot of salt we start > the dough at least 24 hours before baking it with only about 0,5% of > commercial yeast. A new sourdough starter will take longer of course. > Most people think we use chemical substances in professional breads to > make them so airy. But it's all in the technique, the ingredients are > available to everyone. And we use "old dough" a lot. Would you post an old dough recipe for us. We can scale it to our needs. Thanks... >The best recipes > start with "Buy a chunk of old dough from your baker" :-) Remember: > Due to the large amounts of dough that are handled at the bakery (the > dough machine can produce batches of approx. 100 lb of dough) it might > not work for perfectly for small amounts too. So downsizing recipes is > a little tricky. Good luck. > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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