I was baking a loaf of rustic sourdough this morning and was reflecting on Mr.
Adam's signature in a recent post- "minimalist baker". I thought, hey this is
a pretty minimalist loaf too, darn it. The loaf was mixed and risen in a single
glass bowl. The dough was kneaded by hand. Then it was tossed in the frig till
morning (convenience) and then baked in the morning. That's a pretty short
list - how minimal can it get?

Then I thought about it and had to laugh because a few accoutrements were left
out of the short list...

Curvy plastic spatulas, Scraper, WheatMontana bread flour, Organic White Rice
Flour, Organic Cornmeal, Baking Stone, Cast iron skillet (Martha Stewart
collection), Digital thermometer, Weighing Scale, Digital Camera, Camera
Tripod, Ruler (borrowed from stationery cabinet at work), Linen proofing
Baskets, Cotton towels, Single Edge Razor Blades, Solar lights in kitchen to
illuminate bread, a 3-stage starter build cycle, and Bourbon (I told my wife it
was for baking purposes).

Well at least the weighing scale is a simple balance and requires no batteries.

This morning's minimalist loaf...

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/Minimal.html

For the life of me I don't know how they could possibly have baked bread 2000
years ago without a Martha Stewart iron skillet to make steam.


Ed Bechtel
Aspiring Minimalist Baker

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message =
...

> ... The loaf was mixed and risen in a single glass bowl. The dough=20
> was kneaded by hand. Then it was tossed in the frig till morning=20
> (convenience) and then baked in the morning. ...=20

> That's a pretty short list - how minimal can it get?

Well, you could just say "the bread was made". Then it would be
even shorter than Kenneth's famous Poil=E2ne instruction.

> Then I thought about it and had to laugh because a few=20
> accoutrements were left out of the short list...

> [ ... ]=20

Dunno if you mean to say you used all that stuff. Well, here
as a brief exercise in recollection, is my presently-used routine stuff:

Measures consisting of calibrated cans, and truncated pill bottles.
8 oz. spice jar for fridge culture
40 fl. oz. nearly cylindrical plastic container for refreshing fridge =
culture
Chop stick for stirring, etc.
Wooden spoon for sponge- and initial-dough mixing
Gallon plastic bottle for standing "stood" water
50 LB sack of bread flour from bakery supply, salt
KA K45 mixer with dough hook
Bench scraper made from laminate (e.g. "Formica")
Plastic cover (from sweater box) for rising loaves
Cellulose sponges for holding extra water for humidity under the cover
Big, heavy aluminum tray (could be cookie sheet)
Baking parchment or silicone mats
Lame de razoir (rusty)
Old Kenmore gas stove
Cooling rack
Plastic bags
Optional:
Cheap digital camera for verification and record keeping
Ruler
Cheap scale for weighing final dough (to obtain actual "hydration")
Thermometers

> This morning's minimalist loaf...

> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/Minimal.html

That looks very good, but I still do not know how to make it. Maybe
I just have the wrong stuff? No steam, no "stone", no fancy oven, ...
no good stretch-and-fold technique ... ?

I think my best effort, for now and probably the future, was to put a
bread instruction on a single sheet, but now it appears that instruction
is impossibly long and complex.

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc

> For the life of me I don't know how they could possibly have=20
> baked bread 2000 years ago without a Martha Stewart iron=20
> skillet to make steam.

Free Martha!

(I'd like to get her into sourdough, and face her off against Nancy
Silverton, Peter Reinhart, Joe Ortiz, etc.)

---
DickA

P.S. Seeing a post, such as yours, with no >>'s, >>>'s, etc. and without =

spurious line breaks, was a very refreshing experience.

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message =
...

> ... The loaf was mixed and risen in a single glass bowl. The dough=20
> was kneaded by hand. Then it was tossed in the frig till morning=20
> (convenience) and then baked in the morning. ...=20

> That's a pretty short list - how minimal can it get?

Well, you could just say "the bread was made". Then it would be
even shorter than Kenneth's famous Poil=E2ne instruction.

> Then I thought about it and had to laugh because a few=20
> accoutrements were left out of the short list...

> [ ... ]=20

Dunno if you mean to say you used all that stuff. Well, here
as a brief exercise in recollection, is my presently-used routine stuff:

Measures consisting of calibrated cans, and truncated pill bottles.
8 oz. spice jar for fridge culture
40 fl. oz. nearly cylindrical plastic container for refreshing fridge =
culture
Chop stick for stirring, etc.
Wooden spoon for sponge- and initial-dough mixing
Gallon plastic bottle for standing "stood" water
50 LB sack of bread flour from bakery supply, salt
KA K45 mixer with dough hook
Bench scraper made from laminate (e.g. "Formica")
Plastic cover (from sweater box) for rising loaves
Cellulose sponges for holding extra water for humidity under the cover
Big, heavy aluminum tray (could be cookie sheet)
Baking parchment or silicone mats
Lame de razoir (rusty)
Old Kenmore gas stove
Cooling rack
Plastic bags
Optional:
Cheap digital camera for verification and record keeping
Ruler
Cheap scale for weighing final dough (to obtain actual "hydration")
Thermometers

> This morning's minimalist loaf...

> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/Minimal.html

That looks very good, but I still do not know how to make it. Maybe
I just have the wrong stuff? No steam, no "stone", no fancy oven, ...
no good stretch-and-fold technique ... ?

I think my best effort, for now and probably the future, was to put a
bread instruction on a single sheet, but now it appears that instruction
is impossibly long and complex.

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...structions.doc

> For the life of me I don't know how they could possibly have=20
> baked bread 2000 years ago without a Martha Stewart iron=20
> skillet to make steam.

Free Martha!

(I'd like to get her into sourdough, and face her off against Nancy
Silverton, Peter Reinhart, Joe Ortiz, etc.)

---
DickA

P.S. Seeing a post, such as yours, with no >>'s, >>>'s, etc. and without =

spurious line breaks, was a very refreshing experience.

Ed Bechtel wrote:
>
> For the life of me I don't know how they could possibly have baked bread 2000
> years ago without a Martha Stewart iron skillet to make steam.
>
Well, according to the National Geographic report on the
expedition to Egypt that got Ed Wood started on sourdough, they
baked in something like a giant cloach. They used these terra
cotta forms that they piled coals around and on to bake the
bread.

I think those that relied on steam form iron pans had to make do
with generic cast iron. However, I am sure that the fashion
conscious longed for something with Martha's or Emiril's
signature.

Regards,

Charles



--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Ellen wrote:

I was saying to someone the other day "but it's just flour and water and a bit
of olive oil" ... plus the serveral hundred $$ of "other stuff" ...

Ed Replies.
I think the first time the magnitude of this hobby hit was when one of the
forumites (Rob Gardner I think) answered with, "Oh, I use the standard pressure
cooker hot steam injection technique". Sort of like everyone has one of those.

Dick wrote:
Dunno if you mean to say you used all that stuff.

Ed answers:
For that one little loaf, unfortunately Yes.
By the way, the recipe you posted makes great hardy loaves, but if you add any
more parenthetical notes to the recipe page, you're going to be down to 6 point
font.

Charles noted:
Well, according to the National Geographic report on the
expedition to Egypt that got Ed Wood started on sourdough, they
baked in something like a giant cloach.

Ed replies:
Thanks, I forgot to include LaCloche in the list of gear. But I did not use it
this time.

Thanks,
Ed

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 04:51:22 +0000, Ed Bechtel wrote:

> I was baking a loaf of rustic sourdough this morning and was reflecting on
> Mr. Adam's signature in a recent post- "minimalist baker". I thought, hey
> this is a pretty minimalist loaf too, darn it. The loaf was mixed and
> risen in a single glass bowl. The dough was kneaded by hand. Then it was
> tossed in the frig till morning (convenience) and then baked in the
> morning. That's a pretty short list - how minimal can it get?

Tell us more! Did you use rye, yeast, milk? I cannot get loaves like yours.
Thanks
JB

On Mon, 11 Oct 2004 04:51:22 +0000, Ed Bechtel wrote:

> I was baking a loaf of rustic sourdough this morning and was reflecting on
> Mr. Adam's signature in a recent post- "minimalist baker". I thought, hey
> this is a pretty minimalist loaf too, darn it. The loaf was mixed and
> risen in a single glass bowl. The dough was kneaded by hand. Then it was
> tossed in the frig till morning (convenience) and then baked in the
> morning. That's a pretty short list - how minimal can it get?

Tell us more! Did you use rye, yeast, milk? I cannot get loaves like yours.
Thanks
JB

Absolutely beautiful loaf -- very professional looking.

Trevor

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
>I was baking a loaf of rustic sourdough this morning and was reflecting on
>Mr.
> Adam's signature in a recent post- "minimalist baker". I thought, hey
> this is
> a pretty minimalist loaf too, darn it. The loaf was mixed and risen in a
> single
> glass bowl. The dough was kneaded by hand. Then it was tossed in the frig
> till
> morning (convenience) and then baked in the morning. That's a pretty
> short
> list - how minimal can it get?
>
> Then I thought about it and had to laugh because a few accoutrements were
> left
> out of the short list...
>
> Curvy plastic spatulas, Scraper, WheatMontana bread flour, Organic White
> Rice
> Flour, Organic Cornmeal, Baking Stone, Cast iron skillet (Martha Stewart
> collection), Digital thermometer, Weighing Scale, Digital Camera, Camera
> Tripod, Ruler (borrowed from stationery cabinet at work), Linen proofing
> Baskets, Cotton towels, Single Edge Razor Blades, Solar lights in kitchen
> to
> illuminate bread, a 3-stage starter build cycle, and Bourbon (I told my
> wife it
> was for baking purposes).
>
> Well at least the weighing scale is a simple balance and requires no
> batteries.
>
> This morning's minimalist loaf...
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/Minimal.html
>
> For the life of me I don't know how they could possibly have baked bread
> 2000
> years ago without a Martha Stewart iron skillet to make steam.
>
>
> Ed Bechtel
> Aspiring Minimalist Baker
>

It's always pleasing to see what flour and water (plus a little starter and
salt) can generate. Pretty minimal, I'd say. Any one of us would be proud to
claim those loaves. Wish Bourbon worked those wonders for me <g>.

Will



On 10/10/04 11:51 PM, "Ed Bechtel" > wrote:

> I was baking a loaf of rustic sourdough this morning and was reflecting on Mr.
> Adam's signature in a recent post- "minimalist baker". I thought, hey this is
> a pretty minimalist loaf too, darn it. The loaf was mixed and risen in a
> single
> glass bowl. The dough was kneaded by hand. Then it was tossed in the frig till
> morning (convenience) and then baked in the morning. That's a pretty short
> list - how minimal can it get?
>
> Then I thought about it and had to laugh because a few accoutrements were left
> out of the short list...
>
> Curvy plastic spatulas, Scraper, WheatMontana bread flour, Organic White Rice
> Flour, Organic Cornmeal, Baking Stone, Cast iron skillet (Martha Stewart
> collection), Digital thermometer, Weighing Scale, Digital Camera, Camera
> Tripod, Ruler (borrowed from stationery cabinet at work), Linen proofing
> Baskets, Cotton towels, Single Edge Razor Blades, Solar lights in kitchen to
> illuminate bread, a 3-stage starter build cycle, and Bourbon (I told my wife
> it
> was for baking purposes).
>
> Well at least the weighing scale is a simple balance and requires no
> batteries.
>
> This morning's minimalist loaf...
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/Minimal.html
>
> For the life of me I don't know how they could possibly have baked bread 2000
> years ago without a Martha Stewart iron skillet to make steam.
>
>
> Ed Bechtel
> Aspiring Minimalist Baker
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

"williamwaller" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.2.1097664196.260.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
that he liked Ed's loaf shown at
http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/Minimal.html
and quipped:

> It's always pleasing to see what flour and water (plus a little =
starter and
> salt) can generate. Pretty minimal, I'd say. Any one of us would be =
proud to
> claim those loaves. Wish Bourbon worked those wonders for me <g>.

> [ content of ] =
(deleted)

Dunno why you people need to requote an entire article, or sometimes =
even
an entire thread history, to adorn your comment. But, anyway, I would =
also
like to call your attention to Crack as a possibility:

http://www.cookingwithcrack.com/bread/sequence2/ (Rob Gardner - 2002)

--
DickA

Gorgeous!



"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
>I was baking a loaf of rustic sourdough this morning and was reflecting on
>Mr.
> Adam's signature in a recent post- "minimalist baker". I thought, hey
> this is
> a pretty minimalist loaf too, darn it. The loaf was mixed and risen in a
> single
> glass bowl. The dough was kneaded by hand. Then it was tossed in the frig
> till
> morning (convenience) and then baked in the morning. That's a pretty
> short
> list - how minimal can it get?
>
> Then I thought about it and had to laugh because a few accoutrements were
> left
> out of the short list...
>
> Curvy plastic spatulas, Scraper, WheatMontana bread flour, Organic White
> Rice
> Flour, Organic Cornmeal, Baking Stone, Cast iron skillet (Martha Stewart
> collection), Digital thermometer, Weighing Scale, Digital Camera, Camera
> Tripod, Ruler (borrowed from stationery cabinet at work), Linen proofing
> Baskets, Cotton towels, Single Edge Razor Blades, Solar lights in kitchen
> to
> illuminate bread, a 3-stage starter build cycle, and Bourbon (I told my
> wife it
> was for baking purposes).
>
> Well at least the weighing scale is a simple balance and requires no
> batteries.
>
> This morning's minimalist loaf...
>
> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/Minimal.html
>
> For the life of me I don't know how they could possibly have baked bread
> 2000
> years ago without a Martha Stewart iron skillet to make steam.
>
>
> Ed Bechtel
> Aspiring Minimalist Baker
>

"MOMPEAGRAM" > wrote in message =
news:1097749638.OCDww0K17+Lg2H5DAt9h8w@teranews...

> Gorgeous!

with respect to Ed's miminal loaf at
http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/Minimal.html
but also requoted and rebroke all the lines in Ed's post

which is probably still on the servers, but, if not, can be clicked up =
from
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...00001669@mb-m=
17.aol.com

Egad, "Mom"! Don't you know that nonspecific requoting is very =
unminimalistic=20
particularly if the news ID is available?

(Some may notice that pasting <http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D> =
over <news:>=20
addresses the post in the Google Archive, but experience has shown that =
very few will
find a way to include the resultant link without linebreaking it. Well, =
there are the likes
of www.tinyurl.com, but minimalistic as that may be, it is a step =
ahead.)

( http://tinyurl.com/5jl2j )

--=20
Dick Adams
(Aspiring minimalist poster)
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
R.F.S. style guide at
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html

"MOMPEAGRAM" > wrote in message =
news:1097749638.OCDww0K17+Lg2H5DAt9h8w@teranews...

> Gorgeous!

with respect to Ed's miminal loaf at
http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/Bread/Minimal.html
but also requoted and rebroke all the lines in Ed's post

which is probably still on the servers, but, if not, can be clicked up =
from
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...00001669@mb-m=
17.aol.com

Egad, "Mom"! Don't you know that nonspecific requoting is very =
unminimalistic=20
particularly if the news ID is available?

(Some may notice that pasting <http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D> =
over <news:>=20
addresses the post in the Google Archive, but experience has shown that =
very few will
find a way to include the resultant link without linebreaking it. Well, =
there are the likes
of www.tinyurl.com, but minimalistic as that may be, it is a step =
ahead.)

( http://tinyurl.com/5jl2j )

--=20
Dick Adams
(Aspiring minimalist poster)
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
R.F.S. style guide at
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/newcomertips.html

>Egad, "Mom"! Don't you know that nonspecific requoting is very
>unminimalistic
>particularly if the news ID is available?


Put it down to old age, Dick. I had clicked send and like some things you
can't take it back.

Mom

JB wrote:
Did you use rye, yeast, milk? I cannot get loaves like yours.

Ed replies:
Sorry to take so long, JB. Just got back from business trip.

I did not use rye, yeast, milk, or oil.

For this loaf, I had just bought a new start off of ebay from some lady named
Linda to see if her starter would be more sour than the one I made. It wasn't.
After a few days of developing the new start I just made a simple loaf.

12 ounces of Wheatmontana white bread flour
7 ounces of water
5 ounces of fresh lively starter.
1 1/2 teaspoon salt

Mixed with spoon. Rest a few minutes. Hand knead 5 minutes. Rise in 80-90F oven
3 hours with interim stretch and fold. Stretch and fold into round ball. Put in
heavily floured linen covered basket. Rise 1 hour at 80-90F. Put basket in
plastic grocery bag into frig till morning because it was just too late.
Removed from frig, preheated stone in oven for 1 hour. Flipped loaf onto
parchment, slashed, then immediately onto stone. 500F for 5 minutes 425F for 30
minutes.

The hydration is very low for this dough so it is easy to handle and easy to
get high loft during the rise and bake. Wheatmontana white flour is also very
helpful. It is like powerbait is to fishing for getting a strong dough. (I
don't fish).
I'll take photos next time to illustrate the rise. Samartha's web site has
good photo essay on making loaves.

Ed Bechtel

JB wrote:
Did you use rye, yeast, milk? I cannot get loaves like yours.

Ed replies:
Sorry to take so long, JB. Just got back from business trip.

I did not use rye, yeast, milk, or oil.

For this loaf, I had just bought a new start off of ebay from some lady named
Linda to see if her starter would be more sour than the one I made. It wasn't.
After a few days of developing the new start I just made a simple loaf.

12 ounces of Wheatmontana white bread flour
7 ounces of water
5 ounces of fresh lively starter.
1 1/2 teaspoon salt

Mixed with spoon. Rest a few minutes. Hand knead 5 minutes. Rise in 80-90F oven
3 hours with interim stretch and fold. Stretch and fold into round ball. Put in
heavily floured linen covered basket. Rise 1 hour at 80-90F. Put basket in
plastic grocery bag into frig till morning because it was just too late.
Removed from frig, preheated stone in oven for 1 hour. Flipped loaf onto
parchment, slashed, then immediately onto stone. 500F for 5 minutes 425F for 30
minutes.

The hydration is very low for this dough so it is easy to handle and easy to
get high loft during the rise and bake. Wheatmontana white flour is also very
helpful. It is like powerbait is to fishing for getting a strong dough. (I
don't fish).
I'll take photos next time to illustrate the rise. Samartha's web site has
good photo essay on making loaves.

Ed Bechtel

JB wrote:
Did you use rye, yeast, milk? I cannot get loaves like yours.

Ed replies:
Sorry to take so long, JB. Just got back from business trip.

I did not use rye, yeast, milk, or oil.

For this loaf, I had just bought a new start off of ebay from some lady named
Linda to see if her starter would be more sour than the one I made. It wasn't.
After a few days of developing the new start I just made a simple loaf.

12 ounces of Wheatmontana white bread flour
7 ounces of water
5 ounces of fresh lively starter.
1 1/2 teaspoon salt

Mixed with spoon. Rest a few minutes. Hand knead 5 minutes. Rise in 80-90F oven
3 hours with interim stretch and fold. Stretch and fold into round ball. Put in
heavily floured linen covered basket. Rise 1 hour at 80-90F. Put basket in
plastic grocery bag into frig till morning because it was just too late.
Removed from frig, preheated stone in oven for 1 hour. Flipped loaf onto
parchment, slashed, then immediately onto stone. 500F for 5 minutes 425F for 30
minutes.

The hydration is very low for this dough so it is easy to handle and easy to
get high loft during the rise and bake. Wheatmontana white flour is also very
helpful. It is like powerbait is to fishing for getting a strong dough. (I
don't fish).
I'll take photos next time to illustrate the rise. Samartha's web site has
good photo essay on making loaves.

Ed Bechtel

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:41:18 +0000, Ed Bechtel wrote:

> JB wrote:
> Did you use rye, yeast, milk? I cannot get loaves like yours.
>
> Ed replies:
> Sorry to take so long, JB. Just got back from business trip.
>
> The hydration is very low for this dough so it is easy to handle and easy
> to get high loft during the rise and bake. Wheatmontana white flour is
> also very helpful. It is like powerbait is to fishing for getting a
> strong dough. (I don't fish).
> I'll take photos next time to illustrate the rise. Samartha's web site
> has
> good photo essay on making loaves.
>
> Ed Bechtel

Very nice, thank you. The difference to my bread seems to be the stone
with high temperatures and the coating with flour. Will try your recipe
tomorrow.

JB

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:41:18 +0000, Ed Bechtel wrote:

> JB wrote:
> Did you use rye, yeast, milk? I cannot get loaves like yours.
>
> Ed replies:
> Sorry to take so long, JB. Just got back from business trip.
>
> The hydration is very low for this dough so it is easy to handle and easy
> to get high loft during the rise and bake. Wheatmontana white flour is
> also very helpful. It is like powerbait is to fishing for getting a
> strong dough. (I don't fish).
> I'll take photos next time to illustrate the rise. Samartha's web site
> has
> good photo essay on making loaves.
>
> Ed Bechtel

Very nice, thank you. The difference to my bread seems to be the stone
with high temperatures and the coating with flour. Will try your recipe
tomorrow.

JB

It's nice to see that you were able to achieve a nice crumb structure,
even with your lower hydration dough. There seems to be a common belief that
only by using very wet doughs can a baker achieve an open irregular texture.
In my experience this is just myth.
Certainly a wetter dough may have more potential to create an open
crumb, but it is not the main deciding factor. I've made bread with great
open irregular crumb texture using very stiff dough (60% hydration). I've
also made bread with dissapointingly tight texture using very wet dough
(80%).
In my experience, it's the bulk proof that is most important in
determining crumb texture. I'm curious what other bakers have to say on this
matter.

Trevor

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> JB wrote:
> Did you use rye, yeast, milk? I cannot get loaves like yours.
>
> Ed replies:
> Sorry to take so long, JB. Just got back from business trip.
>
> I did not use rye, yeast, milk, or oil.
>
> For this loaf, I had just bought a new start off of ebay from some lady
> named
> Linda to see if her starter would be more sour than the one I made. It
> wasn't.
> After a few days of developing the new start I just made a simple loaf.
>
> 12 ounces of Wheatmontana white bread flour
> 7 ounces of water
> 5 ounces of fresh lively starter.
> 1 1/2 teaspoon salt
>
> Mixed with spoon. Rest a few minutes. Hand knead 5 minutes. Rise in 80-90F
> oven
> 3 hours with interim stretch and fold. Stretch and fold into round ball.
> Put in
> heavily floured linen covered basket. Rise 1 hour at 80-90F. Put basket in
> plastic grocery bag into frig till morning because it was just too late.
> Removed from frig, preheated stone in oven for 1 hour. Flipped loaf onto
> parchment, slashed, then immediately onto stone. 500F for 5 minutes 425F
> for 30
> minutes.
>
> The hydration is very low for this dough so it is easy to handle and easy
> to
> get high loft during the rise and bake. Wheatmontana white flour is also
> very
> helpful. It is like powerbait is to fishing for getting a strong dough.
> (I
> don't fish).
> I'll take photos next time to illustrate the rise. Samartha's web site
> has
> good photo essay on making loaves.
>
> Ed Bechtel

It's nice to see that you were able to achieve a nice crumb structure,
even with your lower hydration dough. There seems to be a common belief that
only by using very wet doughs can a baker achieve an open irregular texture.
In my experience this is just myth.
Certainly a wetter dough may have more potential to create an open
crumb, but it is not the main deciding factor. I've made bread with great
open irregular crumb texture using very stiff dough (60% hydration). I've
also made bread with dissapointingly tight texture using very wet dough
(80%).
In my experience, it's the bulk proof that is most important in
determining crumb texture. I'm curious what other bakers have to say on this
matter.

Trevor

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> JB wrote:
> Did you use rye, yeast, milk? I cannot get loaves like yours.
>
> Ed replies:
> Sorry to take so long, JB. Just got back from business trip.
>
> I did not use rye, yeast, milk, or oil.
>
> For this loaf, I had just bought a new start off of ebay from some lady
> named
> Linda to see if her starter would be more sour than the one I made. It
> wasn't.
> After a few days of developing the new start I just made a simple loaf.
>
> 12 ounces of Wheatmontana white bread flour
> 7 ounces of water
> 5 ounces of fresh lively starter.
> 1 1/2 teaspoon salt
>
> Mixed with spoon. Rest a few minutes. Hand knead 5 minutes. Rise in 80-90F
> oven
> 3 hours with interim stretch and fold. Stretch and fold into round ball.
> Put in
> heavily floured linen covered basket. Rise 1 hour at 80-90F. Put basket in
> plastic grocery bag into frig till morning because it was just too late.
> Removed from frig, preheated stone in oven for 1 hour. Flipped loaf onto
> parchment, slashed, then immediately onto stone. 500F for 5 minutes 425F
> for 30
> minutes.
>
> The hydration is very low for this dough so it is easy to handle and easy
> to
> get high loft during the rise and bake. Wheatmontana white flour is also
> very
> helpful. It is like powerbait is to fishing for getting a strong dough.
> (I
> don't fish).
> I'll take photos next time to illustrate the rise. Samartha's web site
> has
> good photo essay on making loaves.
>
> Ed Bechtel

It's nice to see that you were able to achieve a nice crumb structure,
even with your lower hydration dough. There seems to be a common belief that
only by using very wet doughs can a baker achieve an open irregular texture.
In my experience this is just myth.
Certainly a wetter dough may have more potential to create an open
crumb, but it is not the main deciding factor. I've made bread with great
open irregular crumb texture using very stiff dough (60% hydration). I've
also made bread with dissapointingly tight texture using very wet dough
(80%).
In my experience, it's the bulk proof that is most important in
determining crumb texture. I'm curious what other bakers have to say on this
matter.

Trevor

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> JB wrote:
> Did you use rye, yeast, milk? I cannot get loaves like yours.
>
> Ed replies:
> Sorry to take so long, JB. Just got back from business trip.
>
> I did not use rye, yeast, milk, or oil.
>
> For this loaf, I had just bought a new start off of ebay from some lady
> named
> Linda to see if her starter would be more sour than the one I made. It
> wasn't.
> After a few days of developing the new start I just made a simple loaf.
>
> 12 ounces of Wheatmontana white bread flour
> 7 ounces of water
> 5 ounces of fresh lively starter.
> 1 1/2 teaspoon salt
>
> Mixed with spoon. Rest a few minutes. Hand knead 5 minutes. Rise in 80-90F
> oven
> 3 hours with interim stretch and fold. Stretch and fold into round ball.
> Put in
> heavily floured linen covered basket. Rise 1 hour at 80-90F. Put basket in
> plastic grocery bag into frig till morning because it was just too late.
> Removed from frig, preheated stone in oven for 1 hour. Flipped loaf onto
> parchment, slashed, then immediately onto stone. 500F for 5 minutes 425F
> for 30
> minutes.
>
> The hydration is very low for this dough so it is easy to handle and easy
> to
> get high loft during the rise and bake. Wheatmontana white flour is also
> very
> helpful. It is like powerbait is to fishing for getting a strong dough.
> (I
> don't fish).
> I'll take photos next time to illustrate the rise. Samartha's web site
> has
> good photo essay on making loaves.
>
> Ed Bechtel

"Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message ink.net>...
> It's nice to see that you were able to achieve a nice crumb structure,
> even with your lower hydration dough. There seems to be a common belief that
> only by using very wet doughs can a baker achieve an open irregular texture.
> In my experience this is just myth.
> Certainly a wetter dough may have more potential to create an open
> crumb, but it is not the main deciding factor. I've made bread with great
> open irregular crumb texture using very stiff dough (60% hydration). I've
> also made bread with dissapointingly tight texture using very wet dough
> (80%).
The difference there can be also due to the degree of dough handling.
Some bakers tend to mould the firmer dough less tightly than they
would with a softer dough.And that can influence crumb appearance
also.
Another is the molding of the dough that does not have enough
intermediate proofing time, can contribute to irregular dough
structure, while another dough piece that has attained sufficient rest
if molded ( due to its extemsibility and less prone to
buckiness)will result in a more even crumb grain.
> In my experience, it's the bulk proof that is most important in
> determining crumb texture. I'm curious what other bakers have to say on this
> matter.

An extended bulk fermentation (but not excessively) will still result
in uniform crumb appearance if the dough is divided and given enough
intermediate proof before molding.

On the other hand IF the dough has fermented long enough( much beyond
the expected bulk dough fermentation time) then there is a higher
level of gluten degradation due to gradual increase of proteolytic
activity,so the resulting gluten bubbles during proofing will tend to
exhibit a coalescence:

I mean some of the gas cells are weakened and this fragile cells
break and combine into two or more gas cells resulting in a (bigger
holes) irregular crumb structure.



Roy

"Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message ink.net>...
> It's nice to see that you were able to achieve a nice crumb structure,
> even with your lower hydration dough. There seems to be a common belief that
> only by using very wet doughs can a baker achieve an open irregular texture.
> In my experience this is just myth.
> Certainly a wetter dough may have more potential to create an open
> crumb, but it is not the main deciding factor. I've made bread with great
> open irregular crumb texture using very stiff dough (60% hydration). I've
> also made bread with dissapointingly tight texture using very wet dough
> (80%).
The difference there can be also due to the degree of dough handling.
Some bakers tend to mould the firmer dough less tightly than they
would with a softer dough.And that can influence crumb appearance
also.
Another is the molding of the dough that does not have enough
intermediate proofing time, can contribute to irregular dough
structure, while another dough piece that has attained sufficient rest
if molded ( due to its extemsibility and less prone to
buckiness)will result in a more even crumb grain.
> In my experience, it's the bulk proof that is most important in
> determining crumb texture. I'm curious what other bakers have to say on this
> matter.

An extended bulk fermentation (but not excessively) will still result
in uniform crumb appearance if the dough is divided and given enough
intermediate proof before molding.

On the other hand IF the dough has fermented long enough( much beyond
the expected bulk dough fermentation time) then there is a higher
level of gluten degradation due to gradual increase of proteolytic
activity,so the resulting gluten bubbles during proofing will tend to
exhibit a coalescence:

I mean some of the gas cells are weakened and this fragile cells
break and combine into two or more gas cells resulting in a (bigger
holes) irregular crumb structure.



Roy

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:41:18 +0000, Ed Bechtel wrote:

> JB wrote:
> Did you use rye, yeast, milk? I cannot get loaves like yours.
>
> Ed replies:
> Sorry to take so long, JB. Just got back from business trip.
>
> I did not use rye, yeast, milk, or oil.
>
> For this loaf, I had just bought a new start off of ebay from some lady
> named Linda to see if her starter would be more sour than the one I made.
> It wasn't. After a few days of developing the new start I just made a
> simple loaf.
>

I used your proportions of flour and water, but replaced 50% of the wheat
flour with rye. Then I let it rest overnight in fridge. Baked it this
evening and wow, it turned out to be great. No stone used. Maybe the
secret really is the overnight rest in the fridge?

JB

On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 16:41:18 +0000, Ed Bechtel wrote:

> JB wrote:
> Did you use rye, yeast, milk? I cannot get loaves like yours.
>
> Ed replies:
> Sorry to take so long, JB. Just got back from business trip.
>
> I did not use rye, yeast, milk, or oil.
>
> For this loaf, I had just bought a new start off of ebay from some lady
> named Linda to see if her starter would be more sour than the one I made.
> It wasn't. After a few days of developing the new start I just made a
> simple loaf.
>

I used your proportions of flour and water, but replaced 50% of the wheat
flour with rye. Then I let it rest overnight in fridge. Baked it this
evening and wow, it turned out to be great. No stone used. Maybe the
secret really is the overnight rest in the fridge?

JB

<<An extended bulk fermentation (but not excessively) will still result
in uniform crumb appearance if the dough is divided and given enough
intermediate proof before molding.>>

I find that a longer intermediate proof helps to improve crumb
structure. In general, I believe the more gas there
is inside the dough at the time of shaping the better the loaf in terms of
holding it's shape well and having an open irregular crumb. This applies to
both the bulk proof and the intermediate proof after pre-rounding.
True, heavy handed molding can influence the structure of the loaf, but
the degree to which this results in a tight crumb is also dependent upon the
degree to which the dough has proofed. A dough that's full of gas can retain
an open irregular texture despite being shaped tightly. In fact, I believe
that more gas in the dough requires a tighter shaping, not only to give it a
resilient shape, but also to "pop" some of the larger air bubbles that might
result in a huge unwanted hole in the loaf.

Trevor

"Roy Basan" > wrote in message
m...
> "Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message
> ink.net>...
>> It's nice to see that you were able to achieve a nice crumb structure,
>> even with your lower hydration dough. There seems to be a common belief
>> that
>> only by using very wet doughs can a baker achieve an open irregular
>> texture.
>> In my experience this is just myth.
>> Certainly a wetter dough may have more potential to create an open
>> crumb, but it is not the main deciding factor. I've made bread with great
>> open irregular crumb texture using very stiff dough (60% hydration). I've
>> also made bread with dissapointingly tight texture using very wet dough
>> (80%).
> The difference there can be also due to the degree of dough handling.
> Some bakers tend to mould the firmer dough less tightly than they
> would with a softer dough.And that can influence crumb appearance
> also.
> Another is the molding of the dough that does not have enough
> intermediate proofing time, can contribute to irregular dough
> structure, while another dough piece that has attained sufficient rest
> if molded ( due to its extemsibility and less prone to
> buckiness)will result in a more even crumb grain.
>> In my experience, it's the bulk proof that is most important in
>> determining crumb texture. I'm curious what other bakers have to say on
>> this
>> matter.
>
> An extended bulk fermentation (but not excessively) will still result
> in uniform crumb appearance if the dough is divided and given enough
> intermediate proof before molding.
>
> On the other hand IF the dough has fermented long enough( much beyond
> the expected bulk dough fermentation time) then there is a higher
> level of gluten degradation due to gradual increase of proteolytic
> activity,so the resulting gluten bubbles during proofing will tend to
> exhibit a coalescence:
>
> I mean some of the gas cells are weakened and this fragile cells
> break and combine into two or more gas cells resulting in a (bigger
> holes) irregular crumb structure.
>
>
>
> Roy

<<An extended bulk fermentation (but not excessively) will still result
in uniform crumb appearance if the dough is divided and given enough
intermediate proof before molding.>>

I find that a longer intermediate proof helps to improve crumb
structure. In general, I believe the more gas there
is inside the dough at the time of shaping the better the loaf in terms of
holding it's shape well and having an open irregular crumb. This applies to
both the bulk proof and the intermediate proof after pre-rounding.
True, heavy handed molding can influence the structure of the loaf, but
the degree to which this results in a tight crumb is also dependent upon the
degree to which the dough has proofed. A dough that's full of gas can retain
an open irregular texture despite being shaped tightly. In fact, I believe
that more gas in the dough requires a tighter shaping, not only to give it a
resilient shape, but also to "pop" some of the larger air bubbles that might
result in a huge unwanted hole in the loaf.

Trevor

"Roy Basan" > wrote in message
m...
> "Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message
> ink.net>...
>> It's nice to see that you were able to achieve a nice crumb structure,
>> even with your lower hydration dough. There seems to be a common belief
>> that
>> only by using very wet doughs can a baker achieve an open irregular
>> texture.
>> In my experience this is just myth.
>> Certainly a wetter dough may have more potential to create an open
>> crumb, but it is not the main deciding factor. I've made bread with great
>> open irregular crumb texture using very stiff dough (60% hydration). I've
>> also made bread with dissapointingly tight texture using very wet dough
>> (80%).
> The difference there can be also due to the degree of dough handling.
> Some bakers tend to mould the firmer dough less tightly than they
> would with a softer dough.And that can influence crumb appearance
> also.
> Another is the molding of the dough that does not have enough
> intermediate proofing time, can contribute to irregular dough
> structure, while another dough piece that has attained sufficient rest
> if molded ( due to its extemsibility and less prone to
> buckiness)will result in a more even crumb grain.
>> In my experience, it's the bulk proof that is most important in
>> determining crumb texture. I'm curious what other bakers have to say on
>> this
>> matter.
>
> An extended bulk fermentation (but not excessively) will still result
> in uniform crumb appearance if the dough is divided and given enough
> intermediate proof before molding.
>
> On the other hand IF the dough has fermented long enough( much beyond
> the expected bulk dough fermentation time) then there is a higher
> level of gluten degradation due to gradual increase of proteolytic
> activity,so the resulting gluten bubbles during proofing will tend to
> exhibit a coalescence:
>
> I mean some of the gas cells are weakened and this fragile cells
> break and combine into two or more gas cells resulting in a (bigger
> holes) irregular crumb structure.
>
>
>
> Roy