I'm just curious to find out how many professional bread bakers read
and/or contribute to this message board. Not to imply that professional
bakers are in any way more knowledgable than the home bread bakers who
frequently post here.
In fact, I don't know a single professional who knows even half as much
as some of the posters here. I just want to know if this message board still
has some of the pros who used to post here a few years back.

Trevor

"Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message=20
ink.net...

> I'm just curious to find out how many professional bread bakers read=20
> and/or contribute to this message board.

Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The=20
professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, =
prostitution.
It is true that crooks, politicians, and many others today consider =
themselves
to be "professionals". Just goes to show how low the language has sunk.

> ... In fact, I don't know a single professional who knows even half as =
much=20
> as some of the posters here.=20

You seem conflicted.

> I just want to know if this message board still has some of the pros =
who=20
> used to post here a few years back.

Mention some -- we'll try to dig them up.

--
DickA

"Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message=20
ink.net...

> I'm just curious to find out how many professional bread bakers read=20
> and/or contribute to this message board.

Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The=20
professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, =
prostitution.
It is true that crooks, politicians, and many others today consider =
themselves
to be "professionals". Just goes to show how low the language has sunk.

> ... In fact, I don't know a single professional who knows even half as =
much=20
> as some of the posters here.=20

You seem conflicted.

> I just want to know if this message board still has some of the pros =
who=20
> used to post here a few years back.

Mention some -- we'll try to dig them up.

--
DickA

>
>Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The=20
>professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, =
>prostitution.
>It is true that crooks, politicians, and many others today consider =
>themselves
>to be "professionals". Just goes to show how low the language has sunk.
>

The only difference between the "professions" and "trades" is that
professionals have "clients" and tradesmen have "customers".

Oh, and Doctors, Clergy and Lawyers have strong, legally empowered ruling
bodies to protect them from their own incompetence.

John

>
>Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The=20
>professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, =
>prostitution.
>It is true that crooks, politicians, and many others today consider =
>themselves
>to be "professionals". Just goes to show how low the language has sunk.
>

The only difference between the "professions" and "trades" is that
professionals have "clients" and tradesmen have "customers".

Oh, and Doctors, Clergy and Lawyers have strong, legally empowered ruling
bodies to protect them from their own incompetence.

John

>
>Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The=20
>professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, =
>prostitution.
>It is true that crooks, politicians, and many others today consider =
>themselves
>to be "professionals". Just goes to show how low the language has sunk.
>

The only difference between the "professions" and "trades" is that
professionals have "clients" and tradesmen have "customers".

Oh, and Doctors, Clergy and Lawyers have strong, legally empowered ruling
bodies to protect them from their own incompetence.

John

"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message
...
> >
>>Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The=20
>>professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, =
>>prostitution.
>>It is true that crooks, politicians, and many others today consider =
>>themselves
>>to be "professionals". Just goes to show how low the language has sunk.
>>
>
> The only difference between the "professions" and "trades" is that
> professionals have "clients" and tradesmen have "customers".
>
> Oh, and Doctors, Clergy and Lawyers have strong, legally empowered ruling
> bodies to protect them from their own incompetence.
>
> John
>
I read that another way to denote the differences is that in defining a
profession, there must be an element of fear;-)
Graham

"Wcsjohn" > wrote in message
...
> >
>>Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The=20
>>professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, =
>>prostitution.
>>It is true that crooks, politicians, and many others today consider =
>>themselves
>>to be "professionals". Just goes to show how low the language has sunk.
>>
>
> The only difference between the "professions" and "trades" is that
> professionals have "clients" and tradesmen have "customers".
>
> Oh, and Doctors, Clergy and Lawyers have strong, legally empowered ruling
> bodies to protect them from their own incompetence.
>
> John
>
I read that another way to denote the differences is that in defining a
profession, there must be an element of fear;-)
Graham

Dick Adams wrote:

> "Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>> I'm just curious to find out how many professional bread bakers read
>> and/or contribute to this message board.
>
> Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The
> professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, prostitution.

The four trad professions are (not in any order) law, clergy, medicine,
and the military. Mostly reserved for the "spare heir" and other
siblings. But yes, Dick is right that all other commercial pursuits are
'trade.'

B/

Dick Adams wrote:

> "Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>> I'm just curious to find out how many professional bread bakers read
>> and/or contribute to this message board.
>
> Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The
> professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, prostitution.

The four trad professions are (not in any order) law, clergy, medicine,
and the military. Mostly reserved for the "spare heir" and other
siblings. But yes, Dick is right that all other commercial pursuits are
'trade.'

B/

Dick Adams wrote:
>
> Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The
> professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, prostitution.

You are correct in the traditional usage of the words. However,
under the wage and hour laws and the Government EOP
clasifications, a baker may be a tradesman or an exempt
professional depending on duties and salary.

On your point, I paid thousands of dollars in retroactive
overtime to my head baker who considered himself a professional
and had taken it upon himself to start work early and not mention
it to anyone. Well personally he was as professional as you can
be in the food busines, but not by the wage and hour law.

The traditional usage has not only been corrupted by the law
itself, but also by misuse by people who, for a variety of
unsavory reasons can not call a janitor a janitor or, worse yet,
call every french fry machine tender, sandwich wrapper and burger
flipper a "chef" It is apalling.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Dick Adams wrote:
>
> Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The
> professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, prostitution.

You are correct in the traditional usage of the words. However,
under the wage and hour laws and the Government EOP
clasifications, a baker may be a tradesman or an exempt
professional depending on duties and salary.

On your point, I paid thousands of dollars in retroactive
overtime to my head baker who considered himself a professional
and had taken it upon himself to start work early and not mention
it to anyone. Well personally he was as professional as you can
be in the food busines, but not by the wage and hour law.

The traditional usage has not only been corrupted by the law
itself, but also by misuse by people who, for a variety of
unsavory reasons can not call a janitor a janitor or, worse yet,
call every french fry machine tender, sandwich wrapper and burger
flipper a "chef" It is apalling.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Well! I'll try to keep all that in mind next time the subject of "trades"
vs. "professions" comes up.

Trevor

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dick Adams wrote:
>>
>> Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The
>> professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially,
>> prostitution.
>
> You are correct in the traditional usage of the words. However,
> under the wage and hour laws and the Government EOP
> clasifications, a baker may be a tradesman or an exempt
> professional depending on duties and salary.
>
> On your point, I paid thousands of dollars in retroactive
> overtime to my head baker who considered himself a professional
> and had taken it upon himself to start work early and not mention
> it to anyone. Well personally he was as professional as you can
> be in the food busines, but not by the wage and hour law.
>
> The traditional usage has not only been corrupted by the law
> itself, but also by misuse by people who, for a variety of
> unsavory reasons can not call a janitor a janitor or, worse yet,
> call every french fry machine tender, sandwich wrapper and burger
> flipper a "chef" It is apalling.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
> --
> Charles Perry
> Reply to:
>
> ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Well! I'll try to keep all that in mind next time the subject of "trades"
vs. "professions" comes up.

Trevor

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dick Adams wrote:
>>
>> Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The
>> professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially,
>> prostitution.
>
> You are correct in the traditional usage of the words. However,
> under the wage and hour laws and the Government EOP
> clasifications, a baker may be a tradesman or an exempt
> professional depending on duties and salary.
>
> On your point, I paid thousands of dollars in retroactive
> overtime to my head baker who considered himself a professional
> and had taken it upon himself to start work early and not mention
> it to anyone. Well personally he was as professional as you can
> be in the food busines, but not by the wage and hour law.
>
> The traditional usage has not only been corrupted by the law
> itself, but also by misuse by people who, for a variety of
> unsavory reasons can not call a janitor a janitor or, worse yet,
> call every french fry machine tender, sandwich wrapper and burger
> flipper a "chef" It is apalling.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
> --
> Charles Perry
> Reply to:
>
> ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Charles Perry wrote:
>
> Dick Adams wrote:
>
>>Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The
>>professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, prostitution.
>
>
> You are correct in the traditional usage of the words. However,
> under the wage and hour laws and the Government EOP
> clasifications, a baker may be a tradesman or an exempt
> professional depending on duties and salary.
>
> On your point, I paid thousands of dollars in retroactive
> overtime to my head baker who considered himself a professional
> and had taken it upon himself to start work early and not mention
> it to anyone. Well personally he was as professional as you can
> be in the food busines, but not by the wage and hour law.
>
> The traditional usage has not only been corrupted by the law
> itself, but also by misuse by people who, for a variety of
> unsavory reasons can not call a janitor a janitor or, worse yet,
> call every french fry machine tender, sandwich wrapper and burger
> flipper a "chef" It is apalling.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
Not to mention the number of people who have the audacity to call
themselves business owners.
--
Alan

"I don't think you can win the war on terror."

...George (flip-flop) Bush, 8/30/2004

Charles Perry wrote:
>
> Dick Adams wrote:
>
>>Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The
>>professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, prostitution.
>
>
> You are correct in the traditional usage of the words. However,
> under the wage and hour laws and the Government EOP
> clasifications, a baker may be a tradesman or an exempt
> professional depending on duties and salary.
>
> On your point, I paid thousands of dollars in retroactive
> overtime to my head baker who considered himself a professional
> and had taken it upon himself to start work early and not mention
> it to anyone. Well personally he was as professional as you can
> be in the food busines, but not by the wage and hour law.
>
> The traditional usage has not only been corrupted by the law
> itself, but also by misuse by people who, for a variety of
> unsavory reasons can not call a janitor a janitor or, worse yet,
> call every french fry machine tender, sandwich wrapper and burger
> flipper a "chef" It is apalling.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
Not to mention the number of people who have the audacity to call
themselves business owners.
--
Alan

"I don't think you can win the war on terror."

...George (flip-flop) Bush, 8/30/2004

alzelt wrote:
>
> Not to mention the number of people who have the audacity to call
> themselves business owners.
>

What is your Point? Well, it might take audacity to announce
yourself as a business owner if the businees was a sole
proprietorship, such as a one person whorehouse or legal office.

Owning or not owning a businees is simply a fact. What has that
to do with the professional status of a sourdough baker or the
misuse of language?

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

alzelt wrote:
>
> Not to mention the number of people who have the audacity to call
> themselves business owners.
>

What is your Point? Well, it might take audacity to announce
yourself as a business owner if the businees was a sole
proprietorship, such as a one person whorehouse or legal office.

Owning or not owning a businees is simply a fact. What has that
to do with the professional status of a sourdough baker or the
misuse of language?

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Charles Perry wrote:
>
> alzelt wrote:
>
>>Not to mention the number of people who have the audacity to call
>>themselves business owners.
>>
>
>
> What is your Point? Well, it might take audacity to announce
> yourself as a business owner if the businees was a sole
> proprietorship, such as a one person whorehouse or legal office.
>
> Owning or not owning a businees is simply a fact. What has that
> to do with the professional status of a sourdough baker or the
> misuse of language?
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
> --
> Charles Perry
> Reply to:
>
> ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
In a word, humility.
--
Alan

"I don't think you can win the war on terror."

...George (flip-flop) Bush, 8/30/2004

Charles Perry wrote:
>
> alzelt wrote:
>
>>Not to mention the number of people who have the audacity to call
>>themselves business owners.
>>
>
>
> What is your Point? Well, it might take audacity to announce
> yourself as a business owner if the businees was a sole
> proprietorship, such as a one person whorehouse or legal office.
>
> Owning or not owning a businees is simply a fact. What has that
> to do with the professional status of a sourdough baker or the
> misuse of language?
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
> --
> Charles Perry
> Reply to:
>
> ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
In a word, humility.
--
Alan

"I don't think you can win the war on terror."

...George (flip-flop) Bush, 8/30/2004

alzelt wrote:
>
> In a word, humility.
>

Again, what is your point and how does it relate to sourdough
and/or the topic of this thread?


Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

alzelt wrote:
>
> In a word, humility.
>

Again, what is your point and how does it relate to sourdough
and/or the topic of this thread?


Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

>alzelt wrote:
>>
>> Not to mention the number of people who have the audacity to call
>> themselves business owners.
>>
>
>What is your Point? Well, it might take audacity to announce
>yourself as a business owner if the businees was a sole
>proprietorship, such as a one person whorehouse or legal office.
>
> Owning or not owning a businees is simply a fact. What has that
>to do with the professional status of a sourdough baker or the
>misuse of language?
>
>Regards,
>
>Charles
>

The point seems perfectly clear to me. Alan, unless I'm misreading, was
referring to the "JobTitle inflation" that, I think, originated in America but
is now rife in the UK.

I am talking about barbers who have become "Hair Designers", salesmen who have
become "Sales Executives", gofers who have become "Facilitators".

A fully functioning company can be set up in the UK for less than $100 but the
title "Company Director" is still used by idiots who think it will impress.

The people who operate supermarket in-store bakeries call themselves "bakers"
even though all they do in the bread line is stick frozen baguettes in the
oven.

John

Wcsjohn wrote:
>

> The point seems perfectly clear to me. Alan, unless I'm misreading, was
> referring to the "JobTitle inflation" ...
>
> ...I am talking about barbers who have become "Hair Designers", salesmen who have
> become "Sales Executives"...

Well, yes, I thought that I said something along those lines.

>
> ...A fully functioning company can be set up in the UK for less than $100 but the
> title "Company Director" is still used by idiots who think it will impress.
>
This part is new to me. I guess that I am too insulated in my
retirement out here in the Hinterlands. You just can not make
this stuff up fast enough. I will have to plead confused.

You have given me an idea. Do you think that Managing Director
of Karma Consulting would be better on my business card than the
current Senior Karma Consultant?

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

"
AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
"

--Howard Dean January 19, 2004

Wcsjohn wrote:
>

> The point seems perfectly clear to me. Alan, unless I'm misreading, was
> referring to the "JobTitle inflation" ...
>
> ...I am talking about barbers who have become "Hair Designers", salesmen who have
> become "Sales Executives"...

Well, yes, I thought that I said something along those lines.

>
> ...A fully functioning company can be set up in the UK for less than $100 but the
> title "Company Director" is still used by idiots who think it will impress.
>
This part is new to me. I guess that I am too insulated in my
retirement out here in the Hinterlands. You just can not make
this stuff up fast enough. I will have to plead confused.

You have given me an idea. Do you think that Managing Director
of Karma Consulting would be better on my business card than the
current Senior Karma Consultant?

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

"
AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGG GGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
"

--Howard Dean January 19, 2004

Wcsjohn wrote:
>>alzelt wrote:
>>
>>>Not to mention the number of people who have the audacity to call
>>>themselves business owners.
>>>
>>
>>What is your Point? Well, it might take audacity to announce
>>yourself as a business owner if the businees was a sole
>>proprietorship, such as a one person whorehouse or legal office.
>>
>> Owning or not owning a businees is simply a fact. What has that
>>to do with the professional status of a sourdough baker or the
>>misuse of language?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Charles
>>
>
>
> The point seems perfectly clear to me. Alan, unless I'm misreading, was
> referring to the "JobTitle inflation" that, I think, originated in America but
> is now rife in the UK.
>
> I am talking about barbers who have become "Hair Designers", salesmen who have
> become "Sales Executives", gofers who have become "Facilitators".
>
> A fully functioning company can be set up in the UK for less than $100 but the
> title "Company Director" is still used by idiots who think it will impress.
>
> The people who operate supermarket in-store bakeries call themselves "bakers"
> even though all they do in the bread line is stick frozen baguettes in the
> oven.
>
> John

Bravo! Amazing how you can reach that conclusion without any stretch of
the imagination. Good for you.
--
Alan

"I don't think you can win the war on terror."

...George (flip-flop) Bush, 8/30/2004

Wcsjohn wrote:
>>alzelt wrote:
>>
>>>Not to mention the number of people who have the audacity to call
>>>themselves business owners.
>>>
>>
>>What is your Point? Well, it might take audacity to announce
>>yourself as a business owner if the businees was a sole
>>proprietorship, such as a one person whorehouse or legal office.
>>
>> Owning or not owning a businees is simply a fact. What has that
>>to do with the professional status of a sourdough baker or the
>>misuse of language?
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Charles
>>
>
>
> The point seems perfectly clear to me. Alan, unless I'm misreading, was
> referring to the "JobTitle inflation" that, I think, originated in America but
> is now rife in the UK.
>
> I am talking about barbers who have become "Hair Designers", salesmen who have
> become "Sales Executives", gofers who have become "Facilitators".
>
> A fully functioning company can be set up in the UK for less than $100 but the
> title "Company Director" is still used by idiots who think it will impress.
>
> The people who operate supermarket in-store bakeries call themselves "bakers"
> even though all they do in the bread line is stick frozen baguettes in the
> oven.
>
> John

Bravo! Amazing how you can reach that conclusion without any stretch of
the imagination. Good for you.
--
Alan

"I don't think you can win the war on terror."

...George (flip-flop) Bush, 8/30/2004

>
>>
>> ...A fully functioning company can be set up in the UK for less than $100
>but the
>> title "Company Director" is still used by idiots who think it will impress.
>>
>This part is new to me. I guess that I am too insulated in my
>retirement out here in the Hinterlands. You just can not make
>this stuff up fast enough. I will have to plead confused.
>
>You have given me an idea. Do you think that Managing Director
>of Karma Consulting would be better on my business card than the
>current Senior Karma Consultant?
>
>Regards,
>
>Charles
>

Well, I am not making this up, the word "consultant" has, in the UK, also been
devalued to the point of becoming an insult. The change in usage of the term
has been driven by the practice of renaming yourself, without any validation,
from, say, "Programmer" to "I.T. Consultant" and multiplying your charges by as
large a factor as you can get away with. "Management Consultants" are ,
probably, the least popular of this new breed, rating below insurance salesmen
and just above gangrene.

As for what to put on your business card, here's a link to a well-known Zen
story.

http://www.thesegoto11.com/zen/index.php?story=30

And I know this is very OT.

John

>
>>
>> ...A fully functioning company can be set up in the UK for less than $100
>but the
>> title "Company Director" is still used by idiots who think it will impress.
>>
>This part is new to me. I guess that I am too insulated in my
>retirement out here in the Hinterlands. You just can not make
>this stuff up fast enough. I will have to plead confused.
>
>You have given me an idea. Do you think that Managing Director
>of Karma Consulting would be better on my business card than the
>current Senior Karma Consultant?
>
>Regards,
>
>Charles
>

Well, I am not making this up, the word "consultant" has, in the UK, also been
devalued to the point of becoming an insult. The change in usage of the term
has been driven by the practice of renaming yourself, without any validation,
from, say, "Programmer" to "I.T. Consultant" and multiplying your charges by as
large a factor as you can get away with. "Management Consultants" are ,
probably, the least popular of this new breed, rating below insurance salesmen
and just above gangrene.

As for what to put on your business card, here's a link to a well-known Zen
story.

http://www.thesegoto11.com/zen/index.php?story=30

And I know this is very OT.

John

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> alzelt wrote:
> >
> > Not to mention the number of people who have the audacity to call
> > themselves business owners.
> >
>
> What is your Point? Well, it might take audacity to announce
> yourself as a business owner if the businees was a sole
> proprietorship, such as a one person whorehouse or legal office.
>
> Owning or not owning a businees is simply a fact. What has that
> to do with the professional status of a sourdough baker or the
> misuse of language?
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
> --
> Charles Perry
> Reply to:
>
> ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

I'm a business owner. So what?

Fred

By definition (American Heritage Dictionary) a professional is one who
is "engaged in a specific activity as a source of livelihood".

Dick Adams wrote:

> "Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>
>>I'm just curious to find out how many professional bread bakers read
>>and/or contribute to this message board.
>
>
> Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The
> professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, prostitution.
> It is true that crooks, politicians, and many others today consider themselves
> to be "professionals". Just goes to show how low the language has sunk.
>
>
>>... In fact, I don't know a single professional who knows even half as much
>>as some of the posters here.
>
>
> You seem conflicted.
>
>
>>I just want to know if this message board still has some of the pros who
>>used to post here a few years back.
>
>
> Mention some -- we'll try to dig them up.
>
> --
> DickA
>

--
~)< Love & Peace Ed B.


Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and the government
when it deserves it.
-Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910)

By definition (American Heritage Dictionary) a professional is one who
is "engaged in a specific activity as a source of livelihood".

Dick Adams wrote:

> "Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>
>>I'm just curious to find out how many professional bread bakers read
>>and/or contribute to this message board.
>
>
> Baking is a trade, not a profession, or, to most of us, a hobby. The
> professions are law, clergy, and medicine, and, colloquially, prostitution.
> It is true that crooks, politicians, and many others today consider themselves
> to be "professionals". Just goes to show how low the language has sunk.
>
>
>>... In fact, I don't know a single professional who knows even half as much
>>as some of the posters here.
>
>
> You seem conflicted.
>
>
>>I just want to know if this message board still has some of the pros who
>>used to post here a few years back.
>
>
> Mention some -- we'll try to dig them up.
>
> --
> DickA
>

--
~)< Love & Peace Ed B.


Patriotism is supporting your country all the time and the government
when it deserves it.
-Mark Twain, author and humorist (1835-1910)