I posted this on October 12th but now can't find the posting, so here
I go again . . .


A while back, in my painstaking pursuit of wonderful desem bread, I
followed the recipe in Laurel's Bread Book, which takes 2-3 weeks to
create the starter. Lo and behold in doing the daily kneading I
discovered I had a real allergy to wheat; my hands and forearms broke
out in a rash and after a little careful experimenting, I realized I
am also intolerant of ingested wheat.

I'm about to imbark on a new experiement: making desem bread with
non-wheat flour. Anything non-gluten. It may turn out to be very
dense, and not leavened at all. It's the taste of the desem that is
so unforgettable (I tasted it in Belgium years ago). I am thinking of
using toasted or untoasted buckwheat flour, sea salt and pure water.

Has anybody out there tried something like this?

On 10/20/04 3:03 AM, "Mary Irene" > wrote:

> I posted this on October 12th but now can't find the posting, so here
> I go again . . .
>
>
> A while back, in my painstaking pursuit of wonderful desem bread, I
> followed the recipe in Laurel's Bread Book, which takes 2-3 weeks to
> create the starter. Lo and behold in doing the daily kneading I
> discovered I had a real allergy to wheat; my hands and forearms broke
> out in a rash and after a little careful experimenting, I realized I
> am also intolerant of ingested wheat.
>
> I'm about to imbark on a new experiement: making desem bread with
> non-wheat flour. Anything non-gluten. It may turn out to be very
> dense, and not leavened at all. It's the taste of the desem that is
> so unforgettable (I tasted it in Belgium years ago). I am thinking of
> using toasted or untoasted buckwheat flour, sea salt and pure water.
>
> Has anybody out there tried something like this?

Mary,

I haven't made buckwheat bread but I make buckwheat pancakes (100% untoasted
buckwheat, no flour, no sugar, etc) with a desem starter fairly frequently.
You may not be successful getting to a loaf-style bread but I suspect good
"english muffins" are possible.

Are you sure gluten is the culprit? And have you investigated your reaction
to spelt, kamut, barley, millet etc? Even white wheat, like Montana Gold,
might work for you.

Will

> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 20 Oct 2004 01:03:40 -0700, (Mary Irene)
wrote:

>A while back, in my painstaking pursuit of wonderful desem bread, I
>followed the recipe in Laurel's Bread Book, which takes 2-3 weeks to
>create the starter. Lo and behold in doing the daily kneading I
>discovered I had a real allergy to wheat; my hands and forearms broke
>out in a rash and after a little careful experimenting, I realized I
>am also intolerant of ingested wheat.

If touching wheat gives you a rash, you're probably allergic to wheat,
not gluten intolerant. I have a friend who gets terrible eczema from
wheat, and he can eat rye which has gluten and would work better than
buckwheat for your desem. You might even be able to eat spelt and
kamut--they're different enough from regular wheat that some allergic
people can eat them.

--Rebecca

rebecca wrote:

> On 20 Oct 2004 01:03:40 -0700, (Mary Irene)
> wrote:
>
>
>>A while back, in my painstaking pursuit of wonderful desem bread, I
>>followed the recipe in Laurel's Bread Book, which takes 2-3 weeks to
>>create the starter. Lo and behold in doing the daily kneading I
>>discovered I had a real allergy to wheat; my hands and forearms broke
>>out in a rash and after a little careful experimenting, I realized I
>>am also intolerant of ingested wheat.
>
>
> If touching wheat gives you a rash, you're probably allergic to wheat,
> not gluten intolerant. I have a friend who gets terrible eczema from
> wheat, and he can eat rye which has gluten and would work better than
> buckwheat for your desem. *You might even be able to eat spelt and
> kamut--they're different enough from regular wheat that some allergic
> people can eat them.*
>
> --Rebecca

I, for one. I have a significant dietary allergy to wheat (and corn),
but spelt works well, and taken in some moderation, hasn't bothered me.

Dave

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:34:05 GMT, rebecca >
wrote:

>and he can eat rye which has gluten

Hi Rebecca,

No, it doesn't... (or so little as to be insignificant for this
issue...)

Rye can rise because it has a starchy components called pentosans.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

At 10:06 AM 10/20/2004, Kenneth wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:34:05 GMT, rebecca >
>wrote:
>
> >and he can eat rye which has gluten
>
>Hi Rebecca,
>
>No, it doesn't... (or so little as to be insignificant for this
>issue...)

I find it interesting that my data sheets for Heartland Mill organic rye
flours (light and whole) show 12 % protein content.

Probably rye protein <> wheat protein (gluten), but also with candida
imbalances, this may have some effect:

>>Proper diet is critical for many years to facilitate the
>>healing of the damaged intestinal walls. A gluten-free
>>diet is essential, especially wheat. Wheat has an antigen
>>code that is similar to that of Candida Albicans and
>>stimulates an immediate allergic reaction. Avoiding
>>WHEAT and simple carbohydrates such as SUGAR and high
>>glycemic index foods, is absolutely necessary. In
>>addition to absolutely avoiding WHEAT at all times,
>>avoid barley, kamut, oats, rye, and spelt as much as
>>possible

(the source for this is gone from the internet)

Samartha


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:06:36 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:34:05 GMT, rebecca >
>wrote:
>
>>and he can eat rye which has gluten
>
>Hi Rebecca,
>
>No, it doesn't... (or so little as to be insignificant for this
>issue...)

People who are actually gluten-intolerant can't have rye, though, nor
oats, which really don't seem like they have gluten.

--Rebecca

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:30:59 GMT, rebecca >
wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:06:36 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:34:05 GMT, rebecca >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>and he can eat rye which has gluten
>>
>>Hi Rebecca,
>>
>>No, it doesn't... (or so little as to be insignificant for this
>>issue...)
>
>People who are actually gluten-intolerant can't have rye, though, nor
>oats, which really don't seem like they have gluten.
>
>--Rebecca

Hi Rebecca,

I am not a physician, but I do know that there is (virtually) no
gluten in rye.

Suggesting that folks "who are actually gluten-intolerant can't have
rye" does not tell us much about the reasons for their difficulty
digesting rye.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

rebecca wrote:

> People who are actually gluten-intolerant can't have rye, though, nor
> oats, which really don't seem like they have gluten.

My mother was recently diagnosed with celiac, so I have some
familiarity with this. Rye is on her forbidden list. Oats are, unless
they come from a manufacturer who only does oats. She can eat those
cans of expensive steel cut Scottish oats, but the less expensive oats
tend to be cross contaminated with wheat, so they are no allowed.

According to http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/celiac/
" People who have celiac disease cannot tolerate a protein called
gluten, which is found in wheat, rye, and barley."

There are a number of grains that she can eat, but she can only
purchase those pricey pre-packaged bags that tend to come only in tiny
amounts. Bulk grains tend to end up being contaminated with the
forbidden grains when people switch scoops around.

Karen

rebecca wrote:

> People who are actually gluten-intolerant can't have rye, though, nor
> oats, which really don't seem like they have gluten.

My mother was recently diagnosed with celiac, so I have some
familiarity with this. Rye is on her forbidden list. Oats are, unless
they come from a manufacturer who only does oats. She can eat those
cans of expensive steel cut Scottish oats, but the less expensive oats
tend to be cross contaminated with wheat, so they are no allowed.

According to http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/celiac/
" People who have celiac disease cannot tolerate a protein called
gluten, which is found in wheat, rye, and barley."

There are a number of grains that she can eat, but she can only
purchase those pricey pre-packaged bags that tend to come only in tiny
amounts. Bulk grains tend to end up being contaminated with the
forbidden grains when people switch scoops around.

Karen

On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 12:30:59 GMT, rebecca >
wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:06:36 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:34:05 GMT, rebecca >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>and he can eat rye which has gluten
>>
>>Hi Rebecca,
>>
>>No, it doesn't... (or so little as to be insignificant for this
>>issue...)
>
>People who are actually gluten-intolerant can't have rye, though, nor
>oats, which really don't seem like they have gluten.
>
>--Rebecca

Hi Rebecca,

I am not a physician, but I do know that there is (virtually) no
gluten in rye.

Suggesting that folks "who are actually gluten-intolerant can't have
rye" does not tell us much about the reasons for their difficulty
digesting rye.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

rebecca wrote:

> People who are actually gluten-intolerant can't have rye, though, nor
> oats, which really don't seem like they have gluten.

My mother was recently diagnosed with celiac, so I have some
familiarity with this. Rye is on her forbidden list. Oats are, unless
they come from a manufacturer who only does oats. She can eat those
cans of expensive steel cut Scottish oats, but the less expensive oats
tend to be cross contaminated with wheat, so they are no allowed.

According to http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/celiac/
" People who have celiac disease cannot tolerate a protein called
gluten, which is found in wheat, rye, and barley."

There are a number of grains that she can eat, but she can only
purchase those pricey pre-packaged bags that tend to come only in tiny
amounts. Bulk grains tend to end up being contaminated with the
forbidden grains when people switch scoops around.

Karen

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:06:36 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:34:05 GMT, rebecca >
>wrote:
>
>>and he can eat rye which has gluten
>
>Hi Rebecca,
>
>No, it doesn't... (or so little as to be insignificant for this
>issue...)

People who are actually gluten-intolerant can't have rye, though, nor
oats, which really don't seem like they have gluten.

--Rebecca

At 10:06 AM 10/20/2004, Kenneth wrote:
>On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:34:05 GMT, rebecca >
>wrote:
>
> >and he can eat rye which has gluten
>
>Hi Rebecca,
>
>No, it doesn't... (or so little as to be insignificant for this
>issue...)

I find it interesting that my data sheets for Heartland Mill organic rye
flours (light and whole) show 12 % protein content.

Probably rye protein <> wheat protein (gluten), but also with candida
imbalances, this may have some effect:

>>Proper diet is critical for many years to facilitate the
>>healing of the damaged intestinal walls. A gluten-free
>>diet is essential, especially wheat. Wheat has an antigen
>>code that is similar to that of Candida Albicans and
>>stimulates an immediate allergic reaction. Avoiding
>>WHEAT and simple carbohydrates such as SUGAR and high
>>glycemic index foods, is absolutely necessary. In
>>addition to absolutely avoiding WHEAT at all times,
>>avoid barley, kamut, oats, rye, and spelt as much as
>>possible

(the source for this is gone from the internet)

Samartha


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:34:05 GMT, rebecca >
wrote:

>and he can eat rye which has gluten

Hi Rebecca,

No, it doesn't... (or so little as to be insignificant for this
issue...)

Rye can rise because it has a starchy components called pentosans.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:34:05 +0000, rebecca wrote:

> You might even be able to eat spelt and kamut--they're different
> enough from regular wheat that some allergic people can eat them.
>
> --Rebecca

In my experience, spelt rises much better than kamut, so I would try the
spelt first. As far as I can tell, whole spelt flour can be substituted
for whole wheat flour in any recipe.

--Mac

rebecca wrote:

> On 20 Oct 2004 01:03:40 -0700, (Mary Irene)
> wrote:
>
>
>>A while back, in my painstaking pursuit of wonderful desem bread, I
>>followed the recipe in Laurel's Bread Book, which takes 2-3 weeks to
>>create the starter. Lo and behold in doing the daily kneading I
>>discovered I had a real allergy to wheat; my hands and forearms broke
>>out in a rash and after a little careful experimenting, I realized I
>>am also intolerant of ingested wheat.
>
>
> If touching wheat gives you a rash, you're probably allergic to wheat,
> not gluten intolerant. I have a friend who gets terrible eczema from
> wheat, and he can eat rye which has gluten and would work better than
> buckwheat for your desem. *You might even be able to eat spelt and
> kamut--they're different enough from regular wheat that some allergic
> people can eat them.*
>
> --Rebecca

I, for one. I have a significant dietary allergy to wheat (and corn),
but spelt works well, and taken in some moderation, hasn't bothered me.

Dave

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 12:34:05 +0000, rebecca wrote:

> You might even be able to eat spelt and kamut--they're different
> enough from regular wheat that some allergic people can eat them.
>
> --Rebecca

In my experience, spelt rises much better than kamut, so I would try the
spelt first. As far as I can tell, whole spelt flour can be substituted
for whole wheat flour in any recipe.

--Mac

On 10/21/04 2:48 PM, "Karen" >
wrote:

<snip>

> My mother was recently diagnosed with celiac, so I have some
> familiarity with this. Rye is on her forbidden list. Oats are, unless
> they come from a manufacturer who only does oats. She can eat those
> cans of expensive steel cut Scottish oats, but the less expensive oats
> tend to be cross contaminated with wheat, so they are no allowed.
>
> According to http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddiseases/pubs/celiac/
> " People who have celiac disease cannot tolerate a protein called
> gluten, which is found in wheat, rye, and barley."
>
> There are a number of grains that she can eat, but she can only
> purchase those pricey pre-packaged bags that tend to come only in tiny
> amounts. Bulk grains tend to end up being contaminated with the
> forbidden grains when people switch scoops around.
>
> Karen

Karen,

Perhaps a co-operative buying venture would allow her to obtain
bulk grain cheaply that has not been repackaged. The link below has
information on food buying clubs and food distributors who support them.

http://www.coopdirectory.org/

Will


> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 10/20/04 3:03 AM, "Mary Irene" > wrote:

> I posted this on October 12th but now can't find the posting, so here
> I go again . . .
>
>
> A while back, in my painstaking pursuit of wonderful desem bread, I
> followed the recipe in Laurel's Bread Book, which takes 2-3 weeks to
> create the starter. Lo and behold in doing the daily kneading I
> discovered I had a real allergy to wheat; my hands and forearms broke
> out in a rash and after a little careful experimenting, I realized I
> am also intolerant of ingested wheat.
>
> I'm about to imbark on a new experiement: making desem bread with
> non-wheat flour. Anything non-gluten. It may turn out to be very
> dense, and not leavened at all. It's the taste of the desem that is
> so unforgettable (I tasted it in Belgium years ago). I am thinking of
> using toasted or untoasted buckwheat flour, sea salt and pure water.
>
> Has anybody out there tried something like this?

Mary,

I haven't made buckwheat bread but I make buckwheat pancakes (100% untoasted
buckwheat, no flour, no sugar, etc) with a desem starter fairly frequently.
You may not be successful getting to a loaf-style bread but I suspect good
"english muffins" are possible.

Are you sure gluten is the culprit? And have you investigated your reaction
to spelt, kamut, barley, millet etc? Even white wheat, like Montana Gold,
might work for you.

Will

> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 20 Oct 2004 01:03:40 -0700, (Mary Irene)
wrote:

>A while back, in my painstaking pursuit of wonderful desem bread, I
>followed the recipe in Laurel's Bread Book, which takes 2-3 weeks to
>create the starter. Lo and behold in doing the daily kneading I
>discovered I had a real allergy to wheat; my hands and forearms broke
>out in a rash and after a little careful experimenting, I realized I
>am also intolerant of ingested wheat.

If touching wheat gives you a rash, you're probably allergic to wheat,
not gluten intolerant. I have a friend who gets terrible eczema from
wheat, and he can eat rye which has gluten and would work better than
buckwheat for your desem. You might even be able to eat spelt and
kamut--they're different enough from regular wheat that some allergic
people can eat them.

--Rebecca