Advice on old school bread
 

I've been doing tons of reading and experimenting in the kitchen
trying to perfect a very specific style of bread and was hoping for
some input. I've read the FAQ several times and baked many loafs but
have been so far dissatisfied with the results.

I'm trying to make sprouted-grain (flour), sourdough. I buy organic
grain, soak it for 4-8 hours and sprout it for about 12 hours using an
EasySprout by Sproutmo (which is the fastest and easiest sprouting
system ever devised). I then dry the sprouts and grind them into
flour.

I've been using my own wild-caught starter. When I feed the starter, I
double the amount of flour every 12 hours and try to keep the starter
at around 70-75F (closer to 70). When I feed I add the water first and
whip in some air. It often grows quite high some times doubling in
size so I think it's plenty active.

I think where I'm having trouble is with the bread making/baking part.
I've tried Load of Learning approach from Laurel's bread book and the
no-knead technique from the Times. But all my loafs are door stops. I
realize that this style of bread is always going to be dense, but I'm
hoping for advice about improving my techniques. I realize that the
sprout flour is high in enzyme and that this may be the primary
limiting factor. I do add salt and the sourdough starter is pretty
acidic so I assume I'm using enough salt and acid, although I suppose
I should try increasing these. I haven't tried adding ascorbic acid,
but I may try that next. I'm also considering buying a starter from
Sourdough International to compare it to mine as perhaps my starter is
not as good as it could be.

Thoughts?

Sincerely,

Paul

Advice on old school bread
 

On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 17:43:56 -0700 (PDT), Paul
> wrote:

>I've been doing tons of reading and experimenting in the kitchen
>trying to perfect a very specific style of bread and was hoping for
>some input. I've read the FAQ several times and baked many loafs but
>have been so far dissatisfied with the results.
I would try to make plain sourdough first, then go on to
making sprouted or whatever stuff. A little bit of time and patience,
and you will be fine.
>and try to keep the starter at around 70-75F (closer to 70).
And if you could up those temperatures to around 80F, I'd
expect better results.
[]'s

Advice on old school bread
 

On Apr 22, 9:06*pm, Shadow <Sh@dow> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 17:43:56 -0700 (PDT), Paul
>
> > wrote:
> >I've been doing tons of reading and experimenting in the kitchen
> >trying to perfect a very specific style of bread and was hoping for
> >some input. I've read the FAQ several times and baked many loafs but
> >have been so far dissatisfied with the results.
>
> * * * * I would try to make plain sourdough first, then go on to
> making sprouted or whatever stuff. A little bit of time and patience,
> and you will be fine.

Yeah I've actually thought about starting with more conventional
ingredients
and techniques and slowly transition to the kind of bread I want, but
I've always
assumed that perfecting a technique for which I have no interest is a
waste of time.
Also, I'm concerned that I won't be able to figure out how to bridge
ingredients or
techniques from the more conventional to the less conventional. So
I've to date
been stubbornly pursuing the ultimate goal. However, I may decide to
rethink this
strategy and try some different tactics as you suggest.

> >and try to keep the starter at around 70-75F (closer to 70).
>
> * * * * And if you could up those temperatures to around 80F, I'd
> expect better results.

I thought that lower temps like 70-75 favored yeast. But of course
yeasts
are only half of the equation, there has to be enough gluten/pentosan
development
to capture the gas produced by the yeast.

Thanks,

Paul

Advice on old school bread
 

On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 07:17:28 -0700 (PDT), Paul
> wrote:

>On Apr 22, 9:06*pm, Shadow <Sh@dow> wrote:

>> * * * * And if you could up those temperatures to around 80F, I'd
>> expect better results.
>
>I thought that lower temps like 70-75 favored yeast. But of course
>yeasts are only half of the equation, there has to be enough gluten/pentosan
>development to capture the gas produced by the yeast.
Pentosan ? Wassat ?
You raise the temperature to favour the acid-producing
lactobaccili, nothing to do with gluten.
Download this pdf:
http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/64/7/2616.pdf
Graph gives you a good idea about temperatures.
[]'s

Advice on old school bread
 

Shadow wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Apr 2010 07:17:28 -0700 (PDT), Paul
> > wrote:
>
>
>> On Apr 22, 9:06 pm, Shadow <Sh@dow> wrote:
>>
>
>
>>> And if you could up those temperatures to around 80F, I'd
>>> expect better results.
>>>
>> I thought that lower temps like 70-75 favored yeast. But of course
>> yeasts are only half of the equation, there has to be enough gluten/pentosan
>> development to capture the gas produced by the yeast.
>>
> Pentosan ? Wassat ?
>
Look into rye bread baking - it's used there.
> You raise the temperature to favour the acid-producing
> lactobaccili, nothing to do with gluten.
>
Paul is right that lower temperatures favor yeast - his temperature
seems to be off though.

The issue Paul has with his additions is that the gas containing
structure fails and better gluten development could help that.

Soaking/sprouting grain, then drying/grinding, may make the flour unfit
for rising bread in general because of enzyme activity during sprouting.

Paul has only mentioned "grain" - not which kind of grain. If he uses
rye, pentosan as gas containing agent applies but sprouting rye in the
fashion he describes is never going to work.

> Download this pdf:
> http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/64/7/2616.pdf
> Graph gives you a good idea about temperatures.
> []'s
>
I personally find the lists after that line more practical:

http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#058

It gives generation times of yeast/LB - looking into those may help with
timing and quantifying starter feedings.

It is unknown what kind of bread Paul tries to make, nor are the
ingredients used listed - how much of that sprouted grain flour is used
- all or only a part?

That is too sketchy to get a good idea what is going on.

Sam

Advice on old school bread
 

On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 18:36:36 -0600, Sam
> wrote:

>>> I thought that lower temps like 70-75 favored yeast. But of course
>>> yeasts are only half of the equation, there has to be enough gluten/pentosan
>>> development to capture the gas produced by the yeast.
>>>
>> Pentosan ? Wassat ?
>>
>Look into rye bread baking - it's used there.
OK found it. I knew pentosan as a medicine.
http://www.joepastry.com/index.php?s=pentosan
>> You raise the temperature to favour the acid-producing
>> lactobaccili, nothing to do with gluten.
>>
>Paul is right that lower temperatures favor yeast - his temperature
>seems to be off though.
>
>The issue Paul has with his additions is that the gas containing
>structure fails and better gluten development could help that.
>
>Soaking/sprouting grain, then drying/grinding, may make the flour unfit
>for rising bread in general because of enzyme activity during sprouting.
>
>Paul has only mentioned "grain" - not which kind of grain. If he uses
>rye, pentosan as gas containing agent applies but sprouting rye in the
>fashion he describes is never going to work.
>
>> Download this pdf:
>> http://aem.asm.org/cgi/reprint/64/7/2616.pdf
>> Graph gives you a good idea about temperatures.
>> []'s
>>
>I personally find the lists after that line more practical:
>
>http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#058
Good article, you could knock the line-numbers out to make it
more readable :)
>
>It gives generation times of yeast/LB - looking into those may help with
>timing and quantifying starter feedings.
>
>It is unknown what kind of bread Paul tries to make, nor are the
>ingredients used listed - how much of that sprouted grain flour is used
>- all or only a part?
>
>That is too sketchy to get a good idea what is going on.
>
>Sam
Which is why I suggested he try straight sourdough and evolve
from there, he is introducing too many unknown variables at once. He
does not have enough experience to even guess which one might be the
problem.
[]'s

Advice on old school bread
 

Shadow wrote:
> ...
>> I personally find the lists after that line more practical:
>>
>> http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#058
>>
> Good article, you could knock the line-numbers out to make it
> more readable :)
>
Good suggestion. I looked into it.

The page without the numbers predated the numbered page - 2001 vs. 2002
for the numbered page.

You can take out the n and leave the #nnn off or go from the main SD
page, where it is accessible by link.

The exchange appears in several places, in Daniel Wing/Alan Scott's
book, originated in usenet posts and is also in the SD-FAQ - which get
changed around occasionally:
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatfact...microbial.html
<http://www.nyx.net/%7Edgreenw/whatfactorsaffectmicrobial.html> seems
to be one place where it appears.
>>
> Which is why I suggested he try straight sourdough and evolve
> from there, he is introducing too many unknown variables at once. He
> does not have enough experience to even guess which one might be the
> problem.
>
Good suggestion and excellent assumption there too. A real great
invitation for somebody to share his/her recipe.

S.

Advice on old school bread
 

"Shadow" <Sh@dow> wrote in message
...

> Which is why I suggested he try straight sourdough and evolve
> from there, he is introducing too many unknown variables at once. He
> does not have enough experience to even guess which one might be the
> problem.

Boy does this sound familiar. It was only 6 or 7 years ago everyone was
giving me the same advice. Guess what? It works.

Advice on old school bread
 

On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 05:47:29 -0400, "hutchndi" >
wrote:
>
>"Shadow" <Sh@dow> wrote in message
.. .
>
>> Which is why I suggested he try straight sourdough and evolve
>> from there, he is introducing too many unknown variables at once. He
>> does not have enough experience to even guess which one might be the
>> problem.
>
>Boy does this sound familiar. It was only 6 or 7 years ago everyone was
>giving me the same advice. Guess what? It works.
:)

Advice on old school bread
 

On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 20:59:37 -0600, Sam wrote:


> You can take out the n and leave the #nnn off or go from the main SD
> page, where it is accessible by link.

http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4.html#058

Lopped the "n" off after the postl-4 and that did it.

There is a bit in the article about accumulating oligo-saccarides
that might just be what the OP is doing, with his "sprouting" the grain.
Not sure if the article is saying it's a good or a bad thing. Would these
accumulate, bring unwanted bacteria, and "spoil" the mix, or just
"sweeten" it ?
[]'s

Advice on old school bread
 

Shadow wrote:
>
>
> http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4.html#058
>
> Lopped the "n" off after the postl-4 and that did it.
>
> There is a bit in the article about accumulating oligo-saccarides
> that might just be what the OP is doing, with his "sprouting" the grain.
> Not sure if the article is saying it's a good or a bad thing. Would these
> accumulate, bring unwanted bacteria, and "spoil" the mix, or just
> "sweeten" it ?
> []'s

You can speculate a lot about it with missing information. It's not even
known what kind of grain/flour he uses nor proportions if he mixes
flours or what else there is.

The list of information needed to get any ideas and/or make any
suggestions has been posted on this list before.

If he does not come back with more detail, this thread should be
declared dead and/or open for trolls.

S.

Advice on old school bread
 

In article <87d00055-ee62-4f8c-ab7f-
>,
(Paul) says...

> I've been using my own wild-caught starter. When I feed the starter, I
> double the amount of flour every 12 hours and try to keep the starter
> at around 70-75F (closer to 70). When I feed I add the water first and
> whip in some air. It often grows quite high some times doubling in
> size so I think it's plenty active.

Are you using sprouted grain flour in your starter? If not, you may be
breeding the wrong yeast. Always use the same kind of flour in your
starter that you will use in the bread.

Advice on old school bread
 

Hear ye - oh hear ye

There is another sourdough baloney tale:


2010/5/1 Larry Caldwell >:

> Are you using sprouted grain flour in your starter? *If not, you may be
> breeding the wrong yeast. *Always use the same kind of flour in your
> starter that you will use in the bread.

Have you ever used a rye starter with white (wheat) flour to get a
little more zest?
Have you ever started a white (wheat) flour starter from an existing
rye starter?

If not - never do it because it will break your "always" rule and you
can continue missing out on terrific breads.

Have you ever used mixed grain breads? If so, I would guess, you
proportion your serveral starter flour components matching your final
dough - right?



Sam

Advice on old school bread
 

On May 1, 8:56*pm, Larry Caldwell > wrote:
> In article <87d00055-ee62-4f8c-ab7f-
> >,
> (Paul) says...
>
> > I've been using my own wild-caught starter. When I feed the starter, I
> > double the amount of flour every 12 hours and try to keep the starter
> > at around 70-75F (closer to 70). When I feed I add the water first and
> > whip in some air. It often grows quite high some times doubling in
> > size so I think it's plenty active.
>
> Are you using sprouted grain flour in your starter? *If not, you may be
> breeding the wrong yeast. *Always use the same kind of flour in your
> starter that you will use in the bread.

Larry,

This is a good point. I've tried using sprouted and unsprouted flour
in the starter. The unsprouted seems to work better.

Advice on old school bread
 

On May 1, 10:56*pm, Samartha Deva <sdnews-inbox-
> wrote:
> Hear ye - oh hear ye
>
> There is another sourdough baloney tale:
>
> 2010/5/1 Larry Caldwell >:
>
> > Are you using sprouted grain flour in your starter? *If not, you may be
> > breeding the wrong yeast. *Always use the same kind of flour in your
> > starter that you will use in the bread.
>
> Have you ever used a rye starter with white (wheat) flour to get a
> little more zest?
> Have you ever started a white (wheat) flour starter from an existing
> rye starter?
>
> If not - never do it because it will break your "always" rule and you
> can continue missing out on terrific breads.
>
> Have you ever used mixed grain breads? If so, I would guess, you
> proportion your serveral starter flour components matching your final
> dough - right?
>
> Sam

I have hard wheat, spelt and rye. I generally don't mix them despite
the popularity of this technique.

As a bit of background, I'm concerned about phytic acid and sprouting
and sourdough's long fermentation times greatly reduces the levels of
phytic acid. Sprouting also causes many vitamins to be formed and
makes the final product easier to digest. Unfortunately it also
produces a lot of enzyme. Enzyme seems to be a balancing act. Some is
good, but more is not better.

Getting enzyme right is a key part of beer brewing and I believe it is
even more important in bread making. I've recently learned that salt
and acid can be used to retard the enzyme effect so I think I will try
adding a bit more salt. The LB should make acid and I can try longer
ferments to get more acid. The problem though is that too much acid
makes the bread taste too sour. The art of making sourdough is
producing not just "sour", if that were the case I'd just load up with
ascorbic acid, it's about making a compelling flavor built on a sour
foundation.

There are some breads being made that use 100% sprouted flour, but
they almost all have gluten added and are raised with yeast. This is
my gauntlet.

Cheers,

Paul