A friend swears the only "real thing" is pumpernickel that has a heavy,
almost gummy texture. I've got the recipe from the FAQ, but before I go
through all that, I thought I'd consult the experts here.

Thoughts?


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

At 08:33 PM 11/8/2004, Gary wrote:

>A friend swears the only "real thing" is pumpernickel that has a heavy,
>almost gummy texture. I've got the recipe from the FAQ, but before I go
>through all that, I thought I'd consult the experts here.
>
>Thoughts?

I don't know what your FAQ says. If it does anything below 16 hours of
baking with anything else than rye, water, salt and culture, it's baloney.

Go on my web site: http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/PPN01/

that should fill you in.

I just made 6000 g last Thu. What really helped it this time were stainless
steel pans. The coated pans I used before were getting corroded and two
replacements sent from customer service did not change this.

Welcome to the dark world of sourdough!

Samartha



>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

"Samartha" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.1099981634.9089.rec.food.sourdough@ww w.mountainbitwarrior.co=
m...

> [ ... ]

> Welcome to the dark world of sourdough!

Please . . .

How about: Welcome to world of dark sourdough. =20

(There is other sourdough! There's another world!)

"Samartha" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.1099981634.9089.rec.food.sourdough@ww w.mountainbitwarrior.co=
m...

> [ ... ]

> Welcome to the dark world of sourdough!

Please . . .

How about: Welcome to world of dark sourdough. =20

(There is other sourdough! There's another world!)

>> Welcome to the dark world of sourdough!
>
>Please . . .
>
>How about: Welcome to world of dark sourdough.
>
>(There is other sourdough! There's another world!)

Whatever- I'm an old Congregationalist sort of turned pagan, and sadly
returned to bachelorhood after many years. I've been baking spelt bread
for a while, and recently got interested in sourdough.
There's a big sack of rye in the back room for planting winter cover in the
garden, and I've got a mill.
Samartha's page looks like there's enough for me to "chew on" for a while.
Mine has only assorted garden and cute grandbaby pix.

Thanks, all!



Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

>> Welcome to the dark world of sourdough!
>
>Please . . .
>
>How about: Welcome to world of dark sourdough.
>
>(There is other sourdough! There's another world!)

Whatever- I'm an old Congregationalist sort of turned pagan, and sadly
returned to bachelorhood after many years. I've been baking spelt bread
for a while, and recently got interested in sourdough.
There's a big sack of rye in the back room for planting winter cover in the
garden, and I've got a mill.
Samartha's page looks like there's enough for me to "chew on" for a while.
Mine has only assorted garden and cute grandbaby pix.

Thanks, all!



Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

"Gary Woods" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
...
> A friend swears the only "real thing" is pumpernickel that has a heavy,
> almost gummy texture. I've got the recipe from the FAQ, but before I go
> through all that, I thought I'd consult the experts here.
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at
home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
> Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

I tried Horst Brandel's Black Pumpernickel from Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread
book:
Very German, very authentic, very good....

Ulrike from Germany

"Gary Woods" > wrote in message =
...

Samartha welcomed:

> >> Welcome to the dark world of sourdough!

> Samartha's page looks like there's enough for me to=20
> "chew on" for a while.

You'll find no better guide through the dark world than
Count Samartha.

At 08:16 AM 11/9/2004, Ulrike from Germany wrote:

>I tried Horst Brandel's Black Pumpernickel from Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread
>book:
>Very German, very authentic, very good....

Yes - and....?

Could you please provide details or the recipe under fair use copyright?

Thanks,

Samartha from (well, let's not talk about it)


>Ulrike from Germany
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

At 08:16 AM 11/9/2004, Ulrike from Germany wrote:

>I tried Horst Brandel's Black Pumpernickel from Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread
>book:
>Very German, very authentic, very good....

Yes - and....?

Could you please provide details or the recipe under fair use copyright?

Thanks,

Samartha from (well, let's not talk about it)


>Ulrike from Germany
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Dick Adams wrote:

> "Samartha" > wrote in message news:mailman.1099981634.9089.rec.food.sourdough@ww w.mountainbitwarrior.com...
>
>> [ ... ]
>
>> Welcome to the dark world of sourdough!
>
> Please . . .
>
> How about: Welcome to world of dark sourdough.

"Sourdough, the other white meat."

B/
!)

"Samartha" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:mailman.1100023815.18813.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> At 08:16 AM 11/9/2004, Ulrike from Germany wrote:
>
> >I tried Horst Brandel's Black Pumpernickel from Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread
> >book:
> >Very German, very authentic, very good....
>
> Yes - and....?
>
> Could you please provide details or the recipe under fair use copyright?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Samartha from (well, let's not talk about it)
>
Perhaps some words about German Pumpernickel:
We have a Food Law in Germany. Based on this law there is a *Compilation
of Guidelines on Food*
The guideline for bread says:

Pumpernickel is made of at least 90 per cent whole rye flour and/or whole
rye meal with baking times by at least 16 hours (on low temperature).

If pumpernickel is made of whole rye, then the added acid quantity
originates to at least two thirds from sour dough.

You may use 20 per cent bread for rye bread, the used bread should not be
seen in the final product. There are much more directions in the guideline
of bread.

So Hamelman's recipe has an old bread soaker, rye berry soaker and it took
12 h in the oven to finish.

I like the dark side of bread baking....

Ulrike

"Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message =
...

> I like the dark side of bread baking....

I like the inexpensive side of baking. The Hamelman book seems to be a =
$40 book.
But there is a PDF file of part of it at
http://media.wiley.com/product_data/...0471168572.pdf
I suggest to rightclick to download as file.

---
DickA

"Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message =
...

> I like the dark side of bread baking....

I like the inexpensive side of baking. The Hamelman book seems to be a =
$40 book.
But there is a PDF file of part of it at
http://media.wiley.com/product_data/...0471168572.pdf
I suggest to rightclick to download as file.

---
DickA

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
I like the inexpensive side of baking. The Hamelman book seems to be a $40
book.
DickA
That's full retail. Try these.

http://www.ecookbooks.com/index.html

http://tinyurl.com/6dkyz

http://www.newbookscheap.com/books.htm

On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Dick Adams wrote:

>
> "Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message ...
>
> > I like the dark side of bread baking....
>
> I like the inexpensive side of baking. The Hamelman book seems to be a $40 book.
> But there is a PDF file of part of it at
> http://media.wiley.com/product_data/...0471168572.pdf
> I suggest to rightclick to download as file.
>
> ---
> DickA

$23.80 at Overstock.com
$20.00 at newbookscheap.com

Dave

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message =
...
=20
> "Dick Adams" wrote=20
> > I like the inexpensive side of baking. The Hamelman book seems=20
> > to be a $40 book.

> That's full retail. Try these.
> [ ... ] [ ... ] [ ... ] (cheap!)

Thanks. But I didn't say I was going to buy it. Maybe get it from the
library in due time. In the meantime I deconstructed the free PDF clip
http://media.wiley.com/product%5Fdat...0471168572.pdf
and commented certain passages as follows:

>The home baker has to make a concerted commitment to keeping the=20
>starter fed and happy on a continual basis, even when it is not=20
>going to be used for days at a time.

It is not really that big a deal to keep a sourdough culture healthy
and to refresh it for use.

>RESPECT TIME AND TEMPERATURE AS THE FOREMOST=20
>TOOLS FOR PRODUCING CONSISTENT BREADS.

Excellent idea. Say, just how does one go about respecting these
parameters? Is respect a tool? Could we have some graphic aids,
maybe nomograms?

>WEIGH INGREDIENTS RATHER THAN MEASURE THEM.

Or measure in vessels precalibrated by weighing contained quantities. =20
Liquids may be measured volumetrically.

>AVOID THE TEMPTATION OF ADDING FLOUR TO THE=20
>DOUGH AS IT MIXES.

Many, if not most, home bakers do it all the time. It is a way to=20
compensate for variations in flour and flour moisture content.

>GIVE AN EXTRA FOLD IF NEED BE.

If you happen to be doing loose dough. In general, one's loaves
should be properly tensioned. Giving an extra fold does not quite
say it all.

>DEVELOP A METHOD FOR STEAMING YOUR BREAD.

Been doing OK without steaming.

>FOR HEARTH BREADS, BAKE ON A PREHEATED BAKING=20
>STONE AND BAKE HOT.

Been doing OK without a "stone" and without a hot start.

If I used a tile or something, I would not necessarily presume that
I was making hearth breads.

>IF YOU KEEP A SOURDOUGH STARTER, LOVE IT.

Love is nice, but attention is what starters need. And not very
much at all.

>A LAST WAY TO BAKE CONSISTENTLY IS SIMPLY TO=20
>BAKE OFTEN.

Or bake consistently not so often.

>It should be an easy matter for a baker conversant in the=20
>language of baker's math to adjust a formula to suit either his=20
>individual taste or that of his clientele.

Conversant in the language of bakers' math? Sounds like that
bakers' math is very formidable.=20

>One last note: Flour absorption varies considerably, from one=20
>season to the next and from one part of the country to the next.=20
>So, even though the liquid percentage in the formulas seems so=20
>inflexibly precise, the baker should always check the dough as=20
>soon as the ingredients have come together, in order to ascertain=20
>that dough consistency is correct for that particular mix.

As mentioned above, a good reason to adjust the dough consistency
during mixing/kneading, if you are baking quantities appropriate to the
home. Perhaps the professional bakers do some tests on their flour
before they make the dough so they know how it is going to pan out. =20

>Ripe pre-ferments contribute acidity to the finished mix, which=20
>in turn helps mature the dough and strengthen it.

Overripe preferments can be deadly to sourdough. Maturing
and strengthening the dough would not seem to me to be an action
of acidity in any case, unless, perhaps, we are dealing with non-
glutenous flours like rye.

>Folding is a fundamental requirement, and is a topic that is not=20
>without complexity.

Except for a firm dough, in which case we need to tension it in
some slightly different way. There would be some complexity, it
is true, to a detailed discussion of tensioning dough loaves.

>The shaped breads take their final proofing in floured bannetons=20
>or between folds of baker's linen (or in loaf pans, as the case=20
>may be). Cover the loaves with baker's linen and plastic for the=20
>final proofing to prevent a surface skin from forming.

Or use pans or free-form loaves and cover them with a big plastic
lid like I propose to do.

>Like all well-made breads, these breads should cool fully before=20
>eating.

Why? Breads are delightful when eaten warm. But you have to
be just a bit clever to cut them warm without making a big mess.
Well, my wife likes cool bread, and likes it slightly stale by my
standards, but she is Scandinavian, which is not quite so extreme
as being German.

In closing, I would like to add that terms like poolish, biga, levain,
etc. do not make things easier, necessarily. In that respect, I think
that the term p=E2te ferment=E9e is a real winner.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Samartha" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:mailman.1100023815.18813.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> At 08:16 AM 11/9/2004, Ulrike from Germany wrote:
>
> >I tried Horst Brandel's Black Pumpernickel from Jeffrey Hamelman's Bread
> >book:
> >Very German, very authentic, very good....
>
> Yes - and....?
>
> Could you please provide details or the recipe under fair use copyright?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Samartha from (well, let's not talk about it)
>
>
> >Ulrike from Germany
> >

Perhaps some words about German Pumpernickel:
We have a Food Law in Germany. Based on this law there is a *Compilation
of Guidelines on Food*
The guideline for bread says:

Pumpernickel is made of at least 90 per cent whole rye flour and/or whole
rye meal with baking times by at least 16 hours (on low temperature).

If pumpernickel is made of whole rye, then the added acid quantity
originates to at least two thirds from sour dough.

You may use 20 per cent bread for rye bread, the used bread should not be
seen in the final product. There are much more directions in the guideline
of bread.

So
-==== REZKONV-Recipe - RezkonvSuite v0.98

Title: Horst Brandel's Black Pumpernickel
Categories: Bread, Rye, Sourdough
Yield: 2 Loaves

============================= SOURDOUGH =============================
300 grams (9.6 oz) rye meal
300 grams (9.6 oz) water
150 grams (0.5 oz) mature sourdough culture

========================= RYE BERRY SOAKER =========================
200 grams (6.4 oz) rye berries
Water as needed

======================== OLD-BREAD-SOAKER ========================
200 grams (6.4 oz) old bread
Water as needed

============================ FINAL DOUGH ============================
250 grams ( 8 oz) high-gluten flour
250 grams (8 oz) rye chops
400 grams Water
20 grams (0.6 oz) salt
2 teasp. (0.21 oz) dry yeast
40 grams (1.3 oz) molasses (I used none)
Rye-berry-soaker all of above (not including
-- absorbed water)
Old-bread-soaker all of above (not including
-- absorbed water)
600 grams (1 lb, 3.2 oz) sourdough not all of above

============================== SOURCE ==============================
Jeffrey Hamelman : Bread
A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes

1 SOURDOUGH: Prepare the sourdough and ripen it for 14 to 16 hours
at 70°F Substitute whole-rye flour or pumpernickel if rye meal is
unavailable.

2. RYE.BERRY SOAKER: Soak whole rye berries overnight. The next day,
boil them in about 3 times their volume of water until they are soft
and pliable, about an hour or so. Discard any remaining cooking liquid.

3. OLD-BREAD SOAKER: Using either a portion of the previous
pumpemickel bake, or some other type of leftover bread (preferably a
strong dark bread), soak the bread, crusts and all, in hot water and
let stand for at least 4 hours. Squeeze out as much moisture as
possible and reserve the water for use as needed in the final dough.
For deeper flavor in the finished bread, slice old bread, lay it on
sheet pans, bake again until dry and dark, and use that bread in the
old-bread soaker.

4. MIXING: Add all the ingredients to the bowl, including the sour
dough and both of the soakers, but do not add any of the final dough
water reserved from squeezing the liquid from the old bread soaker.
The rye berries and old bread absorb varying amounts of water during
their cooking and soaking, so wait until the dough comes together
before adding any additional liquid. lt is quite possible that no
additional dough water will be required. The dough should be of
medium consistency but not wet, and it will be slightly sticky. Add
high-gluten flour as needed if the mix is on the wet side. Mix on
first speed only, for 10 minutes. Desired dough temperatu 82° to
84°F

5. BULK FERMENTATION: 30 minutes.

6. DIVIDING AND SHAPING: Divide the dough .
Shape the pieces into logs and place them in pullman pans (Ulrike: 2
bread pans with lid 25x12x9,5 cm ) that have been lightly oiled
and then coated with rye meal or whole-rye flour. The lids should
also be oiled and coated with rye meal or whole-rye flour. This
prevents the bread from sticking to the pan during the long bake.
Slide the lids onto the tops of the pans.

7. FINAL FERMENTATION: 50 to 60 minutes at 82°F

8. BAKING: When the dough is approximately 3/4 inch from the top of
the pan, it is sufficiently risen. Since the bread bakes for 12 to
16 hours, it is of vital importance that the oven temperature grad
ually recedes throughout the hake. The speed at which it recedes
will partially determine the length of the hake. The bread should
be loaded into an oven that is in the 350 to 375°F (175 - 190 °C)
range. Ideally, it will stay in that range for upwards of an hour,
then begin to decrease. In a commercial hearth deck oven that has
moderate heat retention, the oven can be turned off. In the home
oven, try bowering the oven temperature to 275°F (135 °C) after an
hour, and then turning the oven off 3 or 4 hours later. Since there
are so many variations in oven design, experimentation may be
necessary until you find the baking method most suitable for your
oven. You will know when this bread is baked: The aroma will fill
the entire room. Due to the lengthy bake, a great amount of the
natural sugars in the dough will have caramelized, and these will
contribute greatly, not only to the aroma, but also to the deep,
almost black, color of the baked bread. Remove the bread from the
pans and let it cool completely. Resist any urge to slice it; it
should rest at minimum for 24 hours, wrapped in baker's linen,
before the knife reveals the bread's inner self.

=====

"Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message news:
..
..
..
> ============================= SOURDOUGH =============================
> 300 grams (9.6 oz) rye meal
> 300 grams (9.6 oz) water
> 150 grams (0.5 oz) mature sourdough culture
>

Typo here. Should be (only)

15 grams (0.5 oz) mature sourdough culture


The recipes looks good. The book is a nice read, since it is very
clear. One thing I noticed about Hamelman's other rye brads is that
they are very mild though. Try doubling the building phase of the
sourdough to get more acidity (not needed for this recipe).

Konny