I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 French
Sourdough Starters. A later search of this newsgroup revealed that once
these starters are activated, they are self limiting and cannot be -- or are
not supposed to be for some reason -- kept alive. If the starter is
properly fed and cared for, why can't it be kept alive? Has anyone
successfully done this? I'd be grateful if someone could enlighten me about
this.

Many thanks!




---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.791 / Virus Database: 535 - Release Date: 11/8/2004

On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:12:18 -0500, "findel"
> wrote:

>I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 French
>Sourdough Starters. A later search of this newsgroup revealed that once
>these starters are activated, they are self limiting and cannot be -- or are
>not supposed to be for some reason -- kept alive. If the starter is
>properly fed and cared for, why can't it be kept alive? Has anyone
>successfully done this? I'd be grateful if someone could enlighten me about
>this.
>
>Many thanks!
>
>
>
>
>---
>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.791 / Virus Database: 535 - Release Date: 11/8/2004
>

Howdy,

With respect, I would suggest that you contact KA...

That said, is it possible that they are not "starters" in
the sense that we ordinarily use. Perhaps they are some sort
of flavorings, and commercial yeasts.

In any case, KA will have some answer, and then you can tell
us...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:48:38 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:12:18 -0500, "findel"
> wrote:
>
>>I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 French
>>Sourdough Starters. A later search of this newsgroup revealed that once
>>these starters are activated, they are self limiting and cannot be -- or are
>>not supposed to be for some reason -- kept alive. If the starter is
>>properly fed and cared for, why can't it be kept alive? Has anyone
>>successfully done this? I'd be grateful if someone could enlighten me about
>>this.
>>
>>Many thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>---
>>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>>Version: 6.0.791 / Virus Database: 535 - Release Date: 11/8/2004
>>
>
>Howdy,
>
>With respect, I would suggest that you contact KA...
>
>That said, is it possible that they are not "starters" in
>the sense that we ordinarily use. Perhaps they are some sort
>of flavorings, and commercial yeasts.
>
>In any case, KA will have some answer, and then you can tell
>us...
>
>All the best,

Hello again,

I just read the description at the KA site...

" LA-4 French Sourdough Starter

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Create artisan breads -- crusty, chewy, and full of
incredible flavor -- at home with our imported French
Lalvain du Jour® Starters, a dry mixture of specialized
yeast, bacteria and lactose. The pain de campagne LA-2
starter produces bread with an elusive tang, bread where the
rich, nutty taste of the wheat shines through. The French
sourdough LA-4 starter (contains beef traces) creates an
assertive sourdough loaf; it includes lactobacillus type San
Francisco, the bacteria that gives San Francisco sourdough
its characteristic bite. Use just 1/4 teaspoon starter to
make two loaves; each 5g packet contains enough starter for
12 loaves of bread."

and I suspect that my earlier guess was correct. My guess is
that this stuff is LBSF and commercial yeast (which cannot
live for long in the acidic environment created by the LB.

Now, let's consider the "traces" of beef...

I guess that this allows the home baker to make a complete
sandwich with the stuff.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
>
> Now, let's consider the "traces" of beef...

Plasma, is my understanding.

B/

findel wrote:

> I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 French
> Sourdough Starters.

The description of them is not very clear in the current catalog --
http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/item1040.html. Earlier catalogs
made it clear that this was a flavoring to give your loaves a
sourdough taste without actually using a starter. They do have a very
good real starter --
http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/land...f=pub1&id=1522
-- that I have been using for a year now with excellent results (note
to Dick A. -- my family and friends love it <g>).

Karen R.
Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address

"Karen" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> findel wrote:
>
>> I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4
>> French
>> Sourdough Starters.
>
> The description of them is not very clear in the current catalog --
> http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/item1040.html. Earlier catalogs
> made it clear that this was a flavoring to give your loaves a
> sourdough taste without actually using a starter. They do have a very
> good real starter --
> http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/land...f=pub1&id=1522
> -- that I have been using for a year now with excellent results (note
> to Dick A. -- my family and friends love it <g>).
>
> Karen R.
> Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.792 / Virus Database: 536 - Release Date: 11/9/2004

It certainly is not very clear. I would say it was downright deceptive if I
didn't think it was probably written by some copywriter with no knowledge of
what he was writing about. Your note about earlier catalog descriptions
convinces me still further. I'll probably have to chalk this one up as one
of life's little lessons. But I think I'll try to mix it with some homemade
starter to see if I can get the taste I'm looking for and have it survive
long term.

Thanks

----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen" >
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:18 PM
Subject: Why are these Bakers Catalog starters not self perpetuating?


> findel wrote:
>
>> I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4
>> French
>> Sourdough Starters.
>
> The description of them is not very clear in the current catalog --
> http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/item1040.html. Earlier catalogs
> made it clear that this was a flavoring to give your loaves a
> sourdough taste without actually using a starter. They do have a very
> good real starter --
> http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/land...f=pub1&id=1522
> -- that I have been using for a year now with excellent results (note
> to Dick A. -- my family and friends love it <g>).
>
> Karen R.
> Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.792 / Virus Database: 536 - Release Date: 11/9/2004

"Karen" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> findel wrote:
>
>> I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4
>> French
>> Sourdough Starters.
>
> The description of them is not very clear in the current catalog --
> http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/item1040.html. Earlier catalogs
> made it clear that this was a flavoring to give your loaves a
> sourdough taste without actually using a starter. They do have a very
> good real starter --
> http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/land...f=pub1&id=1522
> -- that I have been using for a year now with excellent results (note
> to Dick A. -- my family and friends love it <g>).
>
> Karen R.
> Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address

Findel,

It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little
envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now,
the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to
starters in my hands.

You know how the directions call for making the sponge ahead of
time? I just took that sponge, and maintained it as my culture. It
worked nicely. I made bread off of the free starter sample I got for
several years.

I think that KA's main selling point for the packets is that give
you a very consistent nicely sour loaf if you use them as directed -
for people who only bake very casually, that is a big deal.

Anna



"findel" > wrote in message >...
> It certainly is not very clear. I would say it was downright deceptive if I
> didn't think it was probably written by some copywriter with no knowledge of
> what he was writing about. Your note about earlier catalog descriptions
> convinces me still further. I'll probably have to chalk this one up as one
> of life's little lessons. But I think I'll try to mix it with some homemade
> starter to see if I can get the taste I'm looking for and have it survive
> long term.
>

On 13 Nov 2004 16:41:01 -0800, (Anna
Ault) wrote:

> It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little
>envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now,
>the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to
>starters in my hands.

Howdy,

I believe that you would have had the same result if you
used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Well, lets look:

case a, dead material:
Assuming there are souring agents in this powder, it would give sour
environment adjusted ( = sourdough ) organisms a head start.

case b, alive material:
With or without souring agents, sourdough typical organisms would
already be there.

In both cases this should give a better result with the powder than with
plain flour and water at some level. If it's detectable is another question.

No argument can convince a true believer. That's what believes are for. And
it keeps things stable over generations:
http://thechrisproject.com/images/map_nowvsthen.jpg

Samartha


At 06:17 PM 11/13/2004, Kenneth wrote:

>Howdy,
>
>I believe that you would have had the same result if you
>used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> On 13 Nov 2004 16:41:01 -0800, (Anna
> Ault) wrote:
>
> > It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little
> >envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now,
> >the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to
> >starters in my hands.
>
> Howdy,
>
> I believe that you would have had the same result if you
> used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."
>
> All the best,


I doubt that, if what you mean is that I would have had the same
results with making a straight flour and water starter and baking with
it. If I mix up a paste of flour and water on Sunday night at 7 pm, I
cannot expect it to leaven bread at 10 am on Monday. With the
addition of 1/4 tsp of the KA LA-4 powder, it does (and makes a
tolerable good bread, at that.)

Per the packet of this stuff I have in my fridge, it contains
Lactobacillus brevis, Lactobacillus plantarum, and Saccharomyces
cerevisiae (type San Francisco). Those are all the ingredients
listed.

Now, if what you meant is that after a month or so I would have had
the same result of the flavour changing -- absolutely. That happens
to me all the time. It's part of what I like about baking with
sourdough.

AnnaEA

Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> On 13 Nov 2004 16:41:01 -0800, (Anna
> Ault) wrote:
>
> > It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little
> >envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now,
> >the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to
> >starters in my hands.
>
> Howdy,
>
> I believe that you would have had the same result if you
> used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."
>
> All the best,


I doubt that, if what you mean is that I would have had the same
results with making a straight flour and water starter and baking with
it. If I mix up a paste of flour and water on Sunday night at 7 pm, I
cannot expect it to leaven bread at 10 am on Monday. With the
addition of 1/4 tsp of the KA LA-4 powder, it does (and makes a
tolerable good bread, at that.)

Per the packet of this stuff I have in my fridge, it contains
Lactobacillus brevis, Lactobacillus plantarum, and Saccharomyces
cerevisiae (type San Francisco). Those are all the ingredients
listed.

Now, if what you meant is that after a month or so I would have had
the same result of the flavour changing -- absolutely. That happens
to me all the time. It's part of what I like about baking with
sourdough.

AnnaEA

Well, lets look:

case a, dead material:
Assuming there are souring agents in this powder, it would give sour
environment adjusted ( = sourdough ) organisms a head start.

case b, alive material:
With or without souring agents, sourdough typical organisms would
already be there.

In both cases this should give a better result with the powder than with
plain flour and water at some level. If it's detectable is another question.

No argument can convince a true believer. That's what believes are for. And
it keeps things stable over generations:
http://thechrisproject.com/images/map_nowvsthen.jpg

Samartha


At 06:17 PM 11/13/2004, Kenneth wrote:

>Howdy,
>
>I believe that you would have had the same result if you
>used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."
>
>All the best,
>
>--
>Kenneth
>
>If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."


remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

On 13 Nov 2004 16:41:01 -0800, (Anna
Ault) wrote:

> It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little
>envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now,
>the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to
>starters in my hands.

Howdy,

I believe that you would have had the same result if you
used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 13 Nov 2004 16:41:01 -0800, (Anna
Ault) wrote:

> It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little
>envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now,
>the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to
>starters in my hands.

Howdy,

I believe that you would have had the same result if you
used flour and water and none of the KA "starter."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Findel,

It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little
envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now,
the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to
starters in my hands.

You know how the directions call for making the sponge ahead of
time? I just took that sponge, and maintained it as my culture. It
worked nicely. I made bread off of the free starter sample I got for
several years.

I think that KA's main selling point for the packets is that give
you a very consistent nicely sour loaf if you use them as directed -
for people who only bake very casually, that is a big deal.

Anna



"findel" > wrote in message >...
> It certainly is not very clear. I would say it was downright deceptive if I
> didn't think it was probably written by some copywriter with no knowledge of
> what he was writing about. Your note about earlier catalog descriptions
> convinces me still further. I'll probably have to chalk this one up as one
> of life's little lessons. But I think I'll try to mix it with some homemade
> starter to see if I can get the taste I'm looking for and have it survive
> long term.
>

findel wrote:

> I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 French
> Sourdough Starters.

The description of them is not very clear in the current catalog --
http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/item1040.html. Earlier catalogs
made it clear that this was a flavoring to give your loaves a
sourdough taste without actually using a starter. They do have a very
good real starter --
http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/land...f=pub1&id=1522
-- that I have been using for a year now with excellent results (note
to Dick A. -- my family and friends love it <g>).

Karen R.
Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address