>I love sour bread, but sometimes I want to bake a loaf without that
>sour flavor. And yet, I hate bland bread, and I love the idea of
>using natural leavening just because it's fun and interesting. I
want
>to get my culture to give my bread complex, interesting flavors --
>like those found in fermented products like beer or wine -- without
>yielding much if any sourness.
Wine and beer are made with specific types of yeasts. And what ever
complexity it produces is due to microbial contaminants in form of
bacteria or other strains of yeasts. And there is a slight difference
in the biochemical mechanism that occurs in beverage fermentation if
compared to bread fermentation.
But beer uses a specific yeast strain so the taste will be
consistent, it's the addition of different malts that can have a
significant effect on the taste that makes one beer different from the
other, Besides there are other factors that is responsible for
uniqueness in beer flavor in comparison to others.
>From what I've read (which is quite a bit at this point), the key to
>this is long, slow, cold rises. I understand that at colder
>temperatures, the lactobacilli produce more acetic acid (vinegar)
than
>lactic acid, and while the acetic acid smells and tastes sour, it
>mostly evaporates while the bread is in the oven, and therefore does
>not produce a sour taste in the final product.

Well a few months ago, I was in the bakery who refrigerated their
sourdough starters and I noticed that their bread is more sour than
the other bakeries I know that uses un-refrigerated starters. Their
starters are more fluid though.
It maybe their cultures are different from the other bakery.
>So what else are those lactobacilli and yeasts producing that yields
>the complex flavor I read about in bread baking books and taste in
>fine bakery breads?
The chemistry of sourdough flavor is complex being made of hundreds
of flavor chemicals in the form of acids ,aldehydes, esters, ketones,
lactones, pyrazines, and other heterocyclic compounds.

>What is the best way to maintain the culture and
>ferment the dough in order to strengthen these qualities? It seems
to
>me that if the culture itself were kept cold at all times, going
>immediately back into the refrigerator after feeding, that this would
>select for cold-tolerant organisms. But then, there may be organisms
>which only reproduce at higher temperatures but which will still
>produce good flavors at low temperatures, and perhaps I need to
>maintain a warm starter in order to keep these guys around?

Sourdough organism are not based on single strain of lactobacilli-
yeast tandem but a wide variety of organisms, and those microbial
combination could make a difference in flavour variation.
But its certain that as long as lactobacteria is present in the dough
in some form or another it will introduce some flavor difference to
your bread than if its just being made by bakers yeast .
Most of the so called artisanal bread made by bakers yeast usually
contains some strains of lactobacilli in the dough( from the flour/
yeast impurity) that is responsible for the flavor difference.
And longer fermentation tends to encourage that to happen. In contrast
bread made by short time process is bland as it will not allow these
lactobacilli contaminants to do their work. Yes the bread made with
yeast is less sour but the presence of lactobacilli will make the
difference in flavor perception. As long as its processed on long
fermentation p rocess..Your so called complex flavours but with very
little hint of sourness.
Some bakeries add fermented sourdough to their yeast bread and indeed
it will result in much better bread flavor of their yeast breads
without affecting much the percieved tartness from what is expected
for sourdoughs.
For most people who have made sourdough they are contented that they
like the bread they are making. On the other hand its is a standard
practice to add old fermented dough to the freshly mixed dough for the
same reason.

>Does it matter what hydration I maintain my starter at? I'm
currently
>using 100% (equal weights of water and flour), which is probably a
bit
>drier than most, but the French seem to prefer the old dough method,
>using a mostly solid starter. Does this make French breads less sour
>and more complex in flavor, or is it more dependent on rising times
>and temperatures?
As what I observed from a bakery that use a liquid starter tends to
have more sour testing dough than the ones using firm starter. If they
want to cut down the sourness in other products the reduce the
starter ratio with respect to the dough and spike it with little
amount of bakers yeast to maintain the proofing time.


>When it comes to actually fermenting the dough, most procedures I've
>seen include at least some warm (at least room temperature) rising
>time. Is this absolutely necessary?
It is preferable as refrigerated sourdough when baked directly from
the fridge tends to have smaller >volumes and tend to crack or burst,
affecting its appearance>Any
>other suggestions on the best mix of cold/warm rising?
There is differing opinion in this matter but based on my observation
in one artisanal bakery lately
When they prefer to use a refrigerated starter, its made at room
temperature and allowed to ferment at room temperature for a few
hours and its then refrigerated for 8 hours and is then stirred and
re- charged by adding flour and water and then returned to the fridge
and allowed to ferment for 12 hours.These can be repeated one more.
The starter can be p erpetuated by continuously refreshing it with
flour and water and used refrigerated . Then its added in appropriate
amounts to the dough flour wiht salt and enough water and the dough
mixed to a dough temperature of 24 degree C and the dough is
refrigerated for 12 hours.Then its taken out allowed to stand at room
temperature for 2-3 hours scaled and rounded, allowed to rest for an
hour or two room temperature and then moulded. It is proofed for up
to four hours and baked.


>I should also mention that I bake almost exclusively whole-grain
>breads, for both flavor and health. (I do love white bread, but I
>firmly believe it will send me to an early grave.) I use King Arthur
>whole red wheat and also whole "white" wheat (the latter to mellow
the
>flavor a bit), sometimes with small percentages (15% or so) of whole
>rye flour. Unless I'm baking for a special event or by special
>request, I don't use any white flour at all.
I do not see any problem using white flour as long as its straight run
and the ash content is in the vicinity of 0.6-0.7%
Thinking that is unhealthy is not absolutely true as long as your diet
is balanced. What is the point of eating whole grain breads and you
omit other nutrients as your mind is focused on bread alone' how about
the accompaniments that is part of your meal?
>It may be the fact that I use whole grains that prevents me from
>getting these subtle, complex flavors -- they might be there, but
>masked by the stronger flavors of the whole grain.
Indeed using whole grain tends to have different flavor profile than
using mixed grist such as whole grain plus white flour and the flavor
tends to be stronger with whole grains than with lighter flours.
But a mixed grist had also a nice appealing flavor.
>Any advice is greatly appreciated
Further.......
Bread flavor that you describe as complex is a subjective judgment and
can vary in intensity according to different individuals.
I have met artisan bakers who think that their bread is the best as it
has the strong complex flavors but when assessed by a trained sensory
panel its not different from the store bought bread of the same genre(
competitive artisan breads).

Your questions how to reduce sourness, well many people have different
opinions about it, but to my experience the faster the dough is
allowed to rise the lesser is the sourness perceived such as what is
being used in hybrid sourdoughs where the incorporate bakers yeast to
hasten the proofing time. But if the dough is made with a higher ratio
of natural starter with respect to the dough flour it tends to result
in a distinctive sour tasting bread.
However the nature of the starter culture could influence that also.
Different starters strains have varying effect on sourness.Some
strains are really mild and even if you use high amount of starter
the flavor is still mild.Others tends to produce a distinct tang in
the bread even if the usage rate of the starter is lesser.
In my recent observation from the field....
A lesser amount of starter to dough ratio tends to diminish the
sourness perception. If you increase the amount of starter to the
dough you will notice a more distinct sourness in the resulting bread.
A firmer starter tends to result in less sourness than a more fluid
starter.

In the end the sourdough baking is not fixed in regards to taste due
to the variability of the sourdough organisms.
I think that is one factor that makes one sourdough to be different
from the other....
Roy

On 2004-11-22, Roy Basan > wrote:
>>I love sour bread, but sometimes I want to bake a loaf without that
>>sour flavor. And yet, I hate bland bread, and I love the idea of
>>using natural leavening just because it's fun and interesting. I
> want
>>to get my culture to give my bread complex, interesting flavors --
>>like those found in fermented products like beer or wine -- without
>>yielding much if any sourness.
> Wine and beer are made with specific types of yeasts. And what ever
> complexity it produces is due to microbial contaminants in form of
> bacteria or other strains of yeasts. And there is a slight difference
> in the biochemical mechanism that occurs in beverage fermentation if
> compared to bread fermentation.

I was not clear in what I meant to say -- perhaps it is better to say
that I'm looking for something analogous to the flavors that develop
in wine and beer. If you taste a wine grape and then taste wine made
from it, you'll be able to taste the grape in the wine, but you'll
taste much more as well. These are flavors that appear in the final
product as a result of fermentation. This is the sort of thing I
assume that the artisan bread baking books are talking about with
bread. Certainly, the flavors are not the same as the wine and beer
flavors, but they are the result of the fermentation. So what I'm
trying to do is figure out how to develop fermentation flavors other
than sourness, and indeed without any sourness to the extent
possible.


> The chemistry of sourdough flavor is complex being made of hundreds
> of flavor chemicals in the form of acids ,aldehydes, esters, ketones,
> lactones, pyrazines, and other heterocyclic compounds.

Ah, this is what I'm talking about. How well have these processes
been studied scientifically? Is it possible to get these other
compounds without getting lactic acid?


> Your questions how to reduce sourness, well many people have different
> opinions about it, but to my experience the faster the dough is
> allowed to rise the lesser is the sourness perceived such as what is
> being used in hybrid sourdoughs where the incorporate bakers yeast to
> hasten the proofing time. But if the dough is made with a higher ratio
> of natural starter with respect to the dough flour it tends to result
> in a distinctive sour tasting bread.

I am not a purist -- I'm certainly willing to use a combination of
commercial yeast and natural culture. So far, I have not found this
necessary for producing adequate leavening, though in the past I have
also been satisfied with fairly sour flavors.

> However the nature of the starter culture could influence that also.
> Different starters strains have varying effect on sourness.Some
> strains are really mild and even if you use high amount of starter
> the flavor is still mild.Others tends to produce a distinct tang in
> the bread even if the usage rate of the starter is lesser.

Any suggestions on sources for more mild cultures? I'm using a
homegrown culture, which has worked surprisingly well for me in terms
of leavening power for quite a while now. I see that Sourdough
International has a "French" culture which they say has a very mild
flavor -- does anybody have experience with this particular culture?

> A firmer starter tends to result in less sourness than a more fluid
> starter.

I wonder if that simply has to do with the motility of the organisms
in the starter slowing down their metabolism, similar to the effect of
low temperatres.


>>I should also mention that I bake almost exclusively whole-grain
>>breads, for both flavor and health. (I do love white bread, but I
>>firmly believe it will send me to an early grave.) I use King Arthur
>>whole red wheat and also whole "white" wheat (the latter to mellow
> the
>>flavor a bit), sometimes with small percentages (15% or so) of whole
>>rye flour. Unless I'm baking for a special event or by special
>>request, I don't use any white flour at all.
>
> I do not see any problem using white flour as long as its straight run
> and the ash content is in the vicinity of 0.6-0.7%
> Thinking that is unhealthy is not absolutely true as long as your diet
> is balanced. What is the point of eating whole grain breads and you
> omit other nutrients as your mind is focused on bread alone' how about
> the accompaniments that is part of your meal?

As long as the diet is balanced, then it's pretty much healthy by
definition. But if refined grains (white bread, white rice, sugar)
form the foundation of the diet (as is the case with a typical
American diet), then the diet is not balanced. (By "foundation of the
diet", I mean that a substantial portion of total calories comes from
refined grains -- perhaps 50% or more.) Moderate servings of refined
grains paired with ample fruits and vegetables are fine, and this is
probably what you mean by a balanced diet (though whole grains paired
with fruits and veggies are even better!).

Also note that no matter what the ash content of the white flour is
(which indicates some mineral content), it does not have the fiber
content of whole grain flour. There are also numerous micronutrients
which are removed along with the bran and germ which are not fully
replenished in "enriched" white flour.

Still, I do eat white bread. I just rarely bake it, because when I
bake bread I end up eating a lot of it, and white bread in that
quantity (and that frequency) would be unhealthy for me, given other
aspects of my lifestyle (e.g., sitting at a desk all day). YMMV.

On 2004-11-22, Roy Basan > wrote:
>>I love sour bread, but sometimes I want to bake a loaf without that
>>sour flavor. And yet, I hate bland bread, and I love the idea of
>>using natural leavening just because it's fun and interesting. I
> want
>>to get my culture to give my bread complex, interesting flavors --
>>like those found in fermented products like beer or wine -- without
>>yielding much if any sourness.
> Wine and beer are made with specific types of yeasts. And what ever
> complexity it produces is due to microbial contaminants in form of
> bacteria or other strains of yeasts. And there is a slight difference
> in the biochemical mechanism that occurs in beverage fermentation if
> compared to bread fermentation.

I was not clear in what I meant to say -- perhaps it is better to say
that I'm looking for something analogous to the flavors that develop
in wine and beer. If you taste a wine grape and then taste wine made
from it, you'll be able to taste the grape in the wine, but you'll
taste much more as well. These are flavors that appear in the final
product as a result of fermentation. This is the sort of thing I
assume that the artisan bread baking books are talking about with
bread. Certainly, the flavors are not the same as the wine and beer
flavors, but they are the result of the fermentation. So what I'm
trying to do is figure out how to develop fermentation flavors other
than sourness, and indeed without any sourness to the extent
possible.


> The chemistry of sourdough flavor is complex being made of hundreds
> of flavor chemicals in the form of acids ,aldehydes, esters, ketones,
> lactones, pyrazines, and other heterocyclic compounds.

Ah, this is what I'm talking about. How well have these processes
been studied scientifically? Is it possible to get these other
compounds without getting lactic acid?


> Your questions how to reduce sourness, well many people have different
> opinions about it, but to my experience the faster the dough is
> allowed to rise the lesser is the sourness perceived such as what is
> being used in hybrid sourdoughs where the incorporate bakers yeast to
> hasten the proofing time. But if the dough is made with a higher ratio
> of natural starter with respect to the dough flour it tends to result
> in a distinctive sour tasting bread.

I am not a purist -- I'm certainly willing to use a combination of
commercial yeast and natural culture. So far, I have not found this
necessary for producing adequate leavening, though in the past I have
also been satisfied with fairly sour flavors.

> However the nature of the starter culture could influence that also.
> Different starters strains have varying effect on sourness.Some
> strains are really mild and even if you use high amount of starter
> the flavor is still mild.Others tends to produce a distinct tang in
> the bread even if the usage rate of the starter is lesser.

Any suggestions on sources for more mild cultures? I'm using a
homegrown culture, which has worked surprisingly well for me in terms
of leavening power for quite a while now. I see that Sourdough
International has a "French" culture which they say has a very mild
flavor -- does anybody have experience with this particular culture?

> A firmer starter tends to result in less sourness than a more fluid
> starter.

I wonder if that simply has to do with the motility of the organisms
in the starter slowing down their metabolism, similar to the effect of
low temperatres.


>>I should also mention that I bake almost exclusively whole-grain
>>breads, for both flavor and health. (I do love white bread, but I
>>firmly believe it will send me to an early grave.) I use King Arthur
>>whole red wheat and also whole "white" wheat (the latter to mellow
> the
>>flavor a bit), sometimes with small percentages (15% or so) of whole
>>rye flour. Unless I'm baking for a special event or by special
>>request, I don't use any white flour at all.
>
> I do not see any problem using white flour as long as its straight run
> and the ash content is in the vicinity of 0.6-0.7%
> Thinking that is unhealthy is not absolutely true as long as your diet
> is balanced. What is the point of eating whole grain breads and you
> omit other nutrients as your mind is focused on bread alone' how about
> the accompaniments that is part of your meal?

As long as the diet is balanced, then it's pretty much healthy by
definition. But if refined grains (white bread, white rice, sugar)
form the foundation of the diet (as is the case with a typical
American diet), then the diet is not balanced. (By "foundation of the
diet", I mean that a substantial portion of total calories comes from
refined grains -- perhaps 50% or more.) Moderate servings of refined
grains paired with ample fruits and vegetables are fine, and this is
probably what you mean by a balanced diet (though whole grains paired
with fruits and veggies are even better!).

Also note that no matter what the ash content of the white flour is
(which indicates some mineral content), it does not have the fiber
content of whole grain flour. There are also numerous micronutrients
which are removed along with the bran and germ which are not fully
replenished in "enriched" white flour.

Still, I do eat white bread. I just rarely bake it, because when I
bake bread I end up eating a lot of it, and white bread in that
quantity (and that frequency) would be unhealthy for me, given other
aspects of my lifestyle (e.g., sitting at a desk all day). YMMV.

> Well a few months ago, I was in the bakery who refrigerated their
> sourdough starters and I noticed that their bread is more sour than the
> other bakeries I know that uses un-refrigerated starters. Their starters
> are more fluid though.

I made exactly the same observation: I kept sourdough starter cold (about
10C) and it got intolerably sour, to a degree where it wouldn't work
anymore. I binned it and made a new culture, 25C, and this could start an
Apollo rocket.

JB

> Well a few months ago, I was in the bakery who refrigerated their
> sourdough starters and I noticed that their bread is more sour than the
> other bakeries I know that uses un-refrigerated starters. Their starters
> are more fluid though.

I made exactly the same observation: I kept sourdough starter cold (about
10C) and it got intolerably sour, to a degree where it wouldn't work
anymore. I binned it and made a new culture, 25C, and this could start an
Apollo rocket.

JB

> Well a few months ago, I was in the bakery who refrigerated their
> sourdough starters and I noticed that their bread is more sour than the
> other bakeries I know that uses un-refrigerated starters. Their starters
> are more fluid though.

I made exactly the same observation: I kept sourdough starter cold (about
10C) and it got intolerably sour, to a degree where it wouldn't work
anymore. I binned it and made a new culture, 25C, and this could start an
Apollo rocket.

JB

If you are looking for a complex flavor with no sourness, then perhaps a
yeast poolish would work for you (since you state that you are not a
purist). You can use a small amount of yeast in a mixture of water and flour
(equal parts each) and let it ferment for about 12 hours. Make your dough
using about 20% poolish by total dough weight. You can add a small amount of
yeast, in addition to the poolish, in your dough if you want it to proof
faster. This gives a complex flavor (to some) with zero sourness.

However, if you wish to use a sourdough starter to raise the bread then, in
general, the younger the starter and the quicker the bread rises the less
sour it will be. Of course, you want a starter that is active enough to
raise the bread fairly quickly. Depending on the culture, if the starter can
triple in volume in 8 hours or less then it is very active and can give you
a fairly quick rise for your loaf. By keeping the starter and the bread at
room temp or higher you can expect a quicker rise than you would get had
either been refigerated.

Starters differ in their characteristics, but if you can get an active
starter that's 8 or less hours old and use it as about 10% of the total
dough weight then you are well on your way to making a complex, yet mild
loaf. If your final loaf is ready for baking in under 2 hours then there's a
good chance you'll produce the kind of bread you desire.

Trevor


"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> On 2004-11-22, Roy Basan > wrote:
>>>I love sour bread, but sometimes I want to bake a loaf without that
>>>sour flavor. And yet, I hate bland bread, and I love the idea of
>>>using natural leavening just because it's fun and interesting. I
>> want
>>>to get my culture to give my bread complex, interesting flavors --
>>>like those found in fermented products like beer or wine -- without
>>>yielding much if any sourness.
>> Wine and beer are made with specific types of yeasts. And what ever
>> complexity it produces is due to microbial contaminants in form of
>> bacteria or other strains of yeasts. And there is a slight difference
>> in the biochemical mechanism that occurs in beverage fermentation if
>> compared to bread fermentation.
>
> I was not clear in what I meant to say -- perhaps it is better to say
> that I'm looking for something analogous to the flavors that develop
> in wine and beer. If you taste a wine grape and then taste wine made
> from it, you'll be able to taste the grape in the wine, but you'll
> taste much more as well. These are flavors that appear in the final
> product as a result of fermentation. This is the sort of thing I
> assume that the artisan bread baking books are talking about with
> bread. Certainly, the flavors are not the same as the wine and beer
> flavors, but they are the result of the fermentation. So what I'm
> trying to do is figure out how to develop fermentation flavors other
> than sourness, and indeed without any sourness to the extent
> possible.
>
>
>> The chemistry of sourdough flavor is complex being made of hundreds
>> of flavor chemicals in the form of acids ,aldehydes, esters, ketones,
>> lactones, pyrazines, and other heterocyclic compounds.
>
> Ah, this is what I'm talking about. How well have these processes
> been studied scientifically? Is it possible to get these other
> compounds without getting lactic acid?
>
>
>> Your questions how to reduce sourness, well many people have different
>> opinions about it, but to my experience the faster the dough is
>> allowed to rise the lesser is the sourness perceived such as what is
>> being used in hybrid sourdoughs where the incorporate bakers yeast to
>> hasten the proofing time. But if the dough is made with a higher ratio
>> of natural starter with respect to the dough flour it tends to result
>> in a distinctive sour tasting bread.
>
> I am not a purist -- I'm certainly willing to use a combination of
> commercial yeast and natural culture. So far, I have not found this
> necessary for producing adequate leavening, though in the past I have
> also been satisfied with fairly sour flavors.
>
>> However the nature of the starter culture could influence that also.
>> Different starters strains have varying effect on sourness.Some
>> strains are really mild and even if you use high amount of starter
>> the flavor is still mild.Others tends to produce a distinct tang in
>> the bread even if the usage rate of the starter is lesser.
>
> Any suggestions on sources for more mild cultures? I'm using a
> homegrown culture, which has worked surprisingly well for me in terms
> of leavening power for quite a while now. I see that Sourdough
> International has a "French" culture which they say has a very mild
> flavor -- does anybody have experience with this particular culture?
>
>> A firmer starter tends to result in less sourness than a more fluid
>> starter.
>
> I wonder if that simply has to do with the motility of the organisms
> in the starter slowing down their metabolism, similar to the effect of
> low temperatres.
>
>
>>>I should also mention that I bake almost exclusively whole-grain
>>>breads, for both flavor and health. (I do love white bread, but I
>>>firmly believe it will send me to an early grave.) I use King Arthur
>>>whole red wheat and also whole "white" wheat (the latter to mellow
>> the
>>>flavor a bit), sometimes with small percentages (15% or so) of whole
>>>rye flour. Unless I'm baking for a special event or by special
>>>request, I don't use any white flour at all.
>>
>> I do not see any problem using white flour as long as its straight run
>> and the ash content is in the vicinity of 0.6-0.7%
>> Thinking that is unhealthy is not absolutely true as long as your diet
>> is balanced. What is the point of eating whole grain breads and you
>> omit other nutrients as your mind is focused on bread alone' how about
>> the accompaniments that is part of your meal?
>
> As long as the diet is balanced, then it's pretty much healthy by
> definition. But if refined grains (white bread, white rice, sugar)
> form the foundation of the diet (as is the case with a typical
> American diet), then the diet is not balanced. (By "foundation of the
> diet", I mean that a substantial portion of total calories comes from
> refined grains -- perhaps 50% or more.) Moderate servings of refined
> grains paired with ample fruits and vegetables are fine, and this is
> probably what you mean by a balanced diet (though whole grains paired
> with fruits and veggies are even better!).
>
> Also note that no matter what the ash content of the white flour is
> (which indicates some mineral content), it does not have the fiber
> content of whole grain flour. There are also numerous micronutrients
> which are removed along with the bran and germ which are not fully
> replenished in "enriched" white flour.
>
> Still, I do eat white bread. I just rarely bake it, because when I
> bake bread I end up eating a lot of it, and white bread in that
> quantity (and that frequency) would be unhealthy for me, given other
> aspects of my lifestyle (e.g., sitting at a desk all day). YMMV.

If you are looking for a complex flavor with no sourness, then perhaps a
yeast poolish would work for you (since you state that you are not a
purist). You can use a small amount of yeast in a mixture of water and flour
(equal parts each) and let it ferment for about 12 hours. Make your dough
using about 20% poolish by total dough weight. You can add a small amount of
yeast, in addition to the poolish, in your dough if you want it to proof
faster. This gives a complex flavor (to some) with zero sourness.

However, if you wish to use a sourdough starter to raise the bread then, in
general, the younger the starter and the quicker the bread rises the less
sour it will be. Of course, you want a starter that is active enough to
raise the bread fairly quickly. Depending on the culture, if the starter can
triple in volume in 8 hours or less then it is very active and can give you
a fairly quick rise for your loaf. By keeping the starter and the bread at
room temp or higher you can expect a quicker rise than you would get had
either been refigerated.

Starters differ in their characteristics, but if you can get an active
starter that's 8 or less hours old and use it as about 10% of the total
dough weight then you are well on your way to making a complex, yet mild
loaf. If your final loaf is ready for baking in under 2 hours then there's a
good chance you'll produce the kind of bread you desire.

Trevor


"Randall Nortman" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> On 2004-11-22, Roy Basan > wrote:
>>>I love sour bread, but sometimes I want to bake a loaf without that
>>>sour flavor. And yet, I hate bland bread, and I love the idea of
>>>using natural leavening just because it's fun and interesting. I
>> want
>>>to get my culture to give my bread complex, interesting flavors --
>>>like those found in fermented products like beer or wine -- without
>>>yielding much if any sourness.
>> Wine and beer are made with specific types of yeasts. And what ever
>> complexity it produces is due to microbial contaminants in form of
>> bacteria or other strains of yeasts. And there is a slight difference
>> in the biochemical mechanism that occurs in beverage fermentation if
>> compared to bread fermentation.
>
> I was not clear in what I meant to say -- perhaps it is better to say
> that I'm looking for something analogous to the flavors that develop
> in wine and beer. If you taste a wine grape and then taste wine made
> from it, you'll be able to taste the grape in the wine, but you'll
> taste much more as well. These are flavors that appear in the final
> product as a result of fermentation. This is the sort of thing I
> assume that the artisan bread baking books are talking about with
> bread. Certainly, the flavors are not the same as the wine and beer
> flavors, but they are the result of the fermentation. So what I'm
> trying to do is figure out how to develop fermentation flavors other
> than sourness, and indeed without any sourness to the extent
> possible.
>
>
>> The chemistry of sourdough flavor is complex being made of hundreds
>> of flavor chemicals in the form of acids ,aldehydes, esters, ketones,
>> lactones, pyrazines, and other heterocyclic compounds.
>
> Ah, this is what I'm talking about. How well have these processes
> been studied scientifically? Is it possible to get these other
> compounds without getting lactic acid?
>
>
>> Your questions how to reduce sourness, well many people have different
>> opinions about it, but to my experience the faster the dough is
>> allowed to rise the lesser is the sourness perceived such as what is
>> being used in hybrid sourdoughs where the incorporate bakers yeast to
>> hasten the proofing time. But if the dough is made with a higher ratio
>> of natural starter with respect to the dough flour it tends to result
>> in a distinctive sour tasting bread.
>
> I am not a purist -- I'm certainly willing to use a combination of
> commercial yeast and natural culture. So far, I have not found this
> necessary for producing adequate leavening, though in the past I have
> also been satisfied with fairly sour flavors.
>
>> However the nature of the starter culture could influence that also.
>> Different starters strains have varying effect on sourness.Some
>> strains are really mild and even if you use high amount of starter
>> the flavor is still mild.Others tends to produce a distinct tang in
>> the bread even if the usage rate of the starter is lesser.
>
> Any suggestions on sources for more mild cultures? I'm using a
> homegrown culture, which has worked surprisingly well for me in terms
> of leavening power for quite a while now. I see that Sourdough
> International has a "French" culture which they say has a very mild
> flavor -- does anybody have experience with this particular culture?
>
>> A firmer starter tends to result in less sourness than a more fluid
>> starter.
>
> I wonder if that simply has to do with the motility of the organisms
> in the starter slowing down their metabolism, similar to the effect of
> low temperatres.
>
>
>>>I should also mention that I bake almost exclusively whole-grain
>>>breads, for both flavor and health. (I do love white bread, but I
>>>firmly believe it will send me to an early grave.) I use King Arthur
>>>whole red wheat and also whole "white" wheat (the latter to mellow
>> the
>>>flavor a bit), sometimes with small percentages (15% or so) of whole
>>>rye flour. Unless I'm baking for a special event or by special
>>>request, I don't use any white flour at all.
>>
>> I do not see any problem using white flour as long as its straight run
>> and the ash content is in the vicinity of 0.6-0.7%
>> Thinking that is unhealthy is not absolutely true as long as your diet
>> is balanced. What is the point of eating whole grain breads and you
>> omit other nutrients as your mind is focused on bread alone' how about
>> the accompaniments that is part of your meal?
>
> As long as the diet is balanced, then it's pretty much healthy by
> definition. But if refined grains (white bread, white rice, sugar)
> form the foundation of the diet (as is the case with a typical
> American diet), then the diet is not balanced. (By "foundation of the
> diet", I mean that a substantial portion of total calories comes from
> refined grains -- perhaps 50% or more.) Moderate servings of refined
> grains paired with ample fruits and vegetables are fine, and this is
> probably what you mean by a balanced diet (though whole grains paired
> with fruits and veggies are even better!).
>
> Also note that no matter what the ash content of the white flour is
> (which indicates some mineral content), it does not have the fiber
> content of whole grain flour. There are also numerous micronutrients
> which are removed along with the bran and germ which are not fully
> replenished in "enriched" white flour.
>
> Still, I do eat white bread. I just rarely bake it, because when I
> bake bread I end up eating a lot of it, and white bread in that
> quantity (and that frequency) would be unhealthy for me, given other
> aspects of my lifestyle (e.g., sitting at a desk all day). YMMV.

Randall Nortman > wrote in message link.net>...

>
> I was not clear in what I meant to say -- perhaps it is better to say
> that I'm looking for something analogous to the flavors that develop
> in wine and beer. If you taste a wine grape and then taste wine made
> from it, you'll be able to taste the grape in the wine, but you'll
> taste much more as well. These are flavors that appear in the final
> product as a result of fermentation. This is the sort of thing I
> assume that the artisan bread baking books are talking about with
> bread. Certainly, the flavors are not the same as the wine and beer
> flavors, but they are the result of the fermentation. So what I'm
> trying to do is figure out how to develop fermentation flavors other
> than sourness, and indeed without any sourness to the extent
> possible.

To be in the side where sourness will not be a problem you had to use
bakers yeast then instead of sourdough starter and follow the
traditional method of yeast breadmaking You will be assured that your
bread still had the 'sophisticated' flavor that you cannot find in
ordinary bread made commercially by the short time dough method.
With the sourdough starter the lactobacteria whether homo or
heterofermentative still produce acids ( lactic and acetic acid) which
leaves distinctive taste in the bread.Yes normal yeast produces in the
dough traces of this acids as promoted by bacterial contaminants
but the acidity is hardly distinctive.
>
> > The chemistry of sourdough flavor is complex being made of hundreds
> > of flavor chemicals in the form of acids ,aldehydes, esters, ketones,
> > lactones, pyrazines, and other heterocyclic compounds.
>
> Ah, this is what I'm talking about. How well have these processes
> been studied scientifically? Is it possible to get these other
> compounds without getting lactic acid?
Since the 1970's and even much earlier than that the chemistry of
bread flavor was already elucidated ..And there is a unique difference
between the flavor of normal yeast raised and sourdough leavened
bread.There is more acids in the sourdough than in the normal yeast
raised bread. I think that is what you are looking for. If you go for
less acidity then its preferable to stick with normal yeast leavened
bread but using long fermentation.
Regarding Bread flavors:
You can check more detail from Fenaroli's Handbook of Flavor
Ingredients volume II 2nd edition published by CRC press in 1971 ISBN
0-87819-532-7 that devotes nearly a hundred pages on the chemistry of
bread flavors.
There is also some table of of the molecular components of sourdough
bread flavor in this book published just a few years ago.
Handbook of Dough Fermentation by Karel Kulp and Klaus Lorenz ISBN
0-8247-4264-8

> Any suggestions on sources for more mild cultures? I'm using a
> homegrown culture, which has worked surprisingly well for me in terms
> of leavening power for quite a while now. I see that Sourdough
> International has a "French" culture which they say has a very mild
> flavor -- does anybody have experience with this particular culture?
IIRC I have tested the so called French Levain culture provided to me
by a french supplier almost 10 years ago and yes it has mild
flavor.But nowadays there are many kinds of French levain culture and
you will have difficulty getting what you are after.You really need to
test it yourself and determine if the resulting bread made from it
suits your palate. There are suppliers such as Llalemand, SAF and
possibly King Arthur that sells distinct cultures but I am not very
familiar with their latest levain /starters product line.

Roy

Randall Nortman > wrote in message link.net>...

>
> I was not clear in what I meant to say -- perhaps it is better to say
> that I'm looking for something analogous to the flavors that develop
> in wine and beer. If you taste a wine grape and then taste wine made
> from it, you'll be able to taste the grape in the wine, but you'll
> taste much more as well. These are flavors that appear in the final
> product as a result of fermentation. This is the sort of thing I
> assume that the artisan bread baking books are talking about with
> bread. Certainly, the flavors are not the same as the wine and beer
> flavors, but they are the result of the fermentation. So what I'm
> trying to do is figure out how to develop fermentation flavors other
> than sourness, and indeed without any sourness to the extent
> possible.

To be in the side where sourness will not be a problem you had to use
bakers yeast then instead of sourdough starter and follow the
traditional method of yeast breadmaking You will be assured that your
bread still had the 'sophisticated' flavor that you cannot find in
ordinary bread made commercially by the short time dough method.
With the sourdough starter the lactobacteria whether homo or
heterofermentative still produce acids ( lactic and acetic acid) which
leaves distinctive taste in the bread.Yes normal yeast produces in the
dough traces of this acids as promoted by bacterial contaminants
but the acidity is hardly distinctive.
>
> > The chemistry of sourdough flavor is complex being made of hundreds
> > of flavor chemicals in the form of acids ,aldehydes, esters, ketones,
> > lactones, pyrazines, and other heterocyclic compounds.
>
> Ah, this is what I'm talking about. How well have these processes
> been studied scientifically? Is it possible to get these other
> compounds without getting lactic acid?
Since the 1970's and even much earlier than that the chemistry of
bread flavor was already elucidated ..And there is a unique difference
between the flavor of normal yeast raised and sourdough leavened
bread.There is more acids in the sourdough than in the normal yeast
raised bread. I think that is what you are looking for. If you go for
less acidity then its preferable to stick with normal yeast leavened
bread but using long fermentation.
Regarding Bread flavors:
You can check more detail from Fenaroli's Handbook of Flavor
Ingredients volume II 2nd edition published by CRC press in 1971 ISBN
0-87819-532-7 that devotes nearly a hundred pages on the chemistry of
bread flavors.
There is also some table of of the molecular components of sourdough
bread flavor in this book published just a few years ago.
Handbook of Dough Fermentation by Karel Kulp and Klaus Lorenz ISBN
0-8247-4264-8

> Any suggestions on sources for more mild cultures? I'm using a
> homegrown culture, which has worked surprisingly well for me in terms
> of leavening power for quite a while now. I see that Sourdough
> International has a "French" culture which they say has a very mild
> flavor -- does anybody have experience with this particular culture?
IIRC I have tested the so called French Levain culture provided to me
by a french supplier almost 10 years ago and yes it has mild
flavor.But nowadays there are many kinds of French levain culture and
you will have difficulty getting what you are after.You really need to
test it yourself and determine if the resulting bread made from it
suits your palate. There are suppliers such as Llalemand, SAF and
possibly King Arthur that sells distinct cultures but I am not very
familiar with their latest levain /starters product line.

Roy