I am having a mild problem with my sourdough blobbing out instead of
rising. This is a 100% WHOLE WHEAT sourdough recipe more or less of my own
devising. The starter is likewise fed constantly on whole wheat. It was
originally Gold Rush San Francisco starter which I bought at the
supermarket.

Anyway, I put a little bit of starter (about 0.25 cup) in a jar with 0.5
cups flour and 0.5 cups water. When this is showing signs of strong
activity and has increased noticeably in size (about 3 hours), I dump the
mix into a bowl and add 0.75 cups flour and 0.75 cups water. I let this
sit for about 3 hours, then I add 1.5 cups water and about 6 or 7 cups
flour and 1 tablespoon of salt.

I knead this by hand for 10 minutes. Then I shape the dough into a ball,
cover it with a little bit of olive oil, and put it in a large bowl. I
cover the bowl with plastic or aluminum foil. I let it sit like this in
the oven with the light on for about 3 hours.

Then I take it out and cut the dough into two pieces, knead each piece
again for about a minute or so, and then shape the pieces into balls. I
put these balls on a buttered cookie sheet and let them sit for about
three hours. I have tried this with the loaves uncovered (the
surface dries out a lot) covered with plastic, and covered with
towels. Plastic seems to work best.

During these three hours, the dough increases in volume, but it is hard to
say by how much, since the dough flattens as it expands.

I preheat the oven (with convection fan) to 375 F, then put the cookie
sheet in the oven. The bread rises a lot in the oven, probably almost
doubling. After 10 minutes, I turn the oven down to 325 or 300, depending
on how brown the bottom looks.

Overall, the result is reasonable. I use the bread for sandwiches and
toast and just eat it plain. My wife likes it also, mostly for toast.

But if there was something I could do to make the loaves rise higher
instead of spreading out, that would be a good thing, and I would love to
hear suggestions.

Thanks!

--Mac

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 07:47:27 GMT, Mac > wrote:

>I am having a mild problem with my sourdough blobbing out instead of
>rising. This is a 100% WHOLE WHEAT sourdough recipe more or less of my own
>devising. The starter is likewise fed constantly on whole wheat. It was
>originally Gold Rush San Francisco starter which I bought at the
>supermarket.
>
>Anyway, I put a little bit of starter (about 0.25 cup) in a jar with 0.5
>cups flour and 0.5 cups water. When this is showing signs of strong
>activity and has increased noticeably in size (about 3 hours), I dump the
>mix into a bowl and add 0.75 cups flour and 0.75 cups water. I let this
>sit for about 3 hours, then I add 1.5 cups water and about 6 or 7 cups
>flour and 1 tablespoon of salt.
>
>I knead this by hand for 10 minutes. Then I shape the dough into a ball,
>cover it with a little bit of olive oil, and put it in a large bowl. I
>cover the bowl with plastic or aluminum foil. I let it sit like this in
>the oven with the light on for about 3 hours.
>
>Then I take it out and cut the dough into two pieces, knead each piece
>again for about a minute or so, and then shape the pieces into balls. I
>put these balls on a buttered cookie sheet and let them sit for about
>three hours. I have tried this with the loaves uncovered (the
>surface dries out a lot) covered with plastic, and covered with
>towels. Plastic seems to work best.
>
>During these three hours, the dough increases in volume, but it is hard to
>say by how much, since the dough flattens as it expands.
>
>I preheat the oven (with convection fan) to 375 F, then put the cookie
>sheet in the oven. The bread rises a lot in the oven, probably almost
>doubling. After 10 minutes, I turn the oven down to 325 or 300, depending
>on how brown the bottom looks.
>
>Overall, the result is reasonable. I use the bread for sandwiches and
>toast and just eat it plain. My wife likes it also, mostly for toast.
>
>But if there was something I could do to make the loaves rise higher
>instead of spreading out, that would be a good thing, and I would love to
>hear suggestions.
>
>Thanks!
>
>--Mac

Hi Mac,

Two suggestions you might consider:

First, read my earlier post about "bannetons" as it may
apply to your situation.

Second, consider mixing the dough just until you are sure
that there are not pockets of dry flour. Then, put it in the
refrigerator for 24 hours, then continue with the other
aspects of your process.

Gluten forms from mechanical manipulation (kneading),
chemical manipulation (read some supermarket bread labels
for more information), and by hydration alone: Just cooling
the dough will slow the process sufficiently to form a
stringer gluten bond then you likely have with your present
technique.

That may be enough to prevent the "spread."

All the best,


--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 07:47:27 GMT, Mac > wrote:

>I am having a mild problem with my sourdough blobbing out instead of
>rising. This is a 100% WHOLE WHEAT sourdough recipe more or less of my own
>devising. The starter is likewise fed constantly on whole wheat. It was
>originally Gold Rush San Francisco starter which I bought at the
>supermarket.
>
>Anyway, I put a little bit of starter (about 0.25 cup) in a jar with 0.5
>cups flour and 0.5 cups water. When this is showing signs of strong
>activity and has increased noticeably in size (about 3 hours), I dump the
>mix into a bowl and add 0.75 cups flour and 0.75 cups water. I let this
>sit for about 3 hours, then I add 1.5 cups water and about 6 or 7 cups
>flour and 1 tablespoon of salt.
>
>I knead this by hand for 10 minutes. Then I shape the dough into a ball,
>cover it with a little bit of olive oil, and put it in a large bowl. I
>cover the bowl with plastic or aluminum foil. I let it sit like this in
>the oven with the light on for about 3 hours.
>
>Then I take it out and cut the dough into two pieces, knead each piece
>again for about a minute or so, and then shape the pieces into balls. I
>put these balls on a buttered cookie sheet and let them sit for about
>three hours. I have tried this with the loaves uncovered (the
>surface dries out a lot) covered with plastic, and covered with
>towels. Plastic seems to work best.
>
>During these three hours, the dough increases in volume, but it is hard to
>say by how much, since the dough flattens as it expands.
>
>I preheat the oven (with convection fan) to 375 F, then put the cookie
>sheet in the oven. The bread rises a lot in the oven, probably almost
>doubling. After 10 minutes, I turn the oven down to 325 or 300, depending
>on how brown the bottom looks.
>
>Overall, the result is reasonable. I use the bread for sandwiches and
>toast and just eat it plain. My wife likes it also, mostly for toast.
>
>But if there was something I could do to make the loaves rise higher
>instead of spreading out, that would be a good thing, and I would love to
>hear suggestions.
>
>Thanks!
>
>--Mac

Hi Mac,

Two suggestions you might consider:

First, read my earlier post about "bannetons" as it may
apply to your situation.

Second, consider mixing the dough just until you are sure
that there are not pockets of dry flour. Then, put it in the
refrigerator for 24 hours, then continue with the other
aspects of your process.

Gluten forms from mechanical manipulation (kneading),
chemical manipulation (read some supermarket bread labels
for more information), and by hydration alone: Just cooling
the dough will slow the process sufficiently to form a
stringer gluten bond then you likely have with your present
technique.

That may be enough to prevent the "spread."

All the best,


--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 07:47:27 GMT, Mac > spewed forth :

>I am having a mild problem with my sourdough blobbing out instead of
>rising. This is a 100% WHOLE WHEAT sourdough recipe more or less of my own
>devising. The starter is likewise fed constantly on whole wheat. It was
>originally Gold Rush San Francisco starter which I bought at the
>supermarket.
>
>Anyway, I put a little bit of starter (about 0.25 cup) in a jar with 0.5
>cups flour and 0.5 cups water. When this is showing signs of strong
>activity and has increased noticeably in size (about 3 hours), I dump the
>mix into a bowl and add 0.75 cups flour and 0.75 cups water. I let this
>sit for about 3 hours, then I add 1.5 cups water and about 6 or 7 cups
>flour and 1 tablespoon of salt.

Possibly you need longer fermentation on the first sponge. I maintain
my chef on commercial white flour (King Arthur's bread flour) but bake
100% whole wheat. Using the following method I always turn out
flavorful well-risen (but not spongy) bread.

1/2 cup starter, 4 cups water, flour to make a moderately thick
batter. Overnight ferment, knead in adequate flour to produce a
slightly sticky dough, two rises, shape and into the pans for a final
proof, then 25mins at 375f.

The whole procedure takes upwards of 18 hours but the results are
well-worth it.

"Mac" > wrote in message=20
news
> [ ... ]
>
> Overall, the result is reasonable. I use the bread for sandwiches and
> toast and just eat it plain. My wife likes it also, mostly for toast.
>=20
> But if there was something I could do to make the loaves rise higher
> instead of spreading out, that would be a good thing, and I would love =
to
> hear suggestions.

Under the circumstances, loaf pans might be suitable.

(OT: It seems to me that the subtle flavors of sourdough get =
considerably
lost in whole-wheat bread. Whole wheat flour is generally problematic =
for
sourdough bread. Send email for details on yeasted BM ~75%WW like=20
<http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/BMWW7SEP04.jpg>.)

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Mac" > wrote in message=20
news
> [ ... ]
>
> Overall, the result is reasonable. I use the bread for sandwiches and
> toast and just eat it plain. My wife likes it also, mostly for toast.
>=20
> But if there was something I could do to make the loaves rise higher
> instead of spreading out, that would be a good thing, and I would love =
to
> hear suggestions.

Under the circumstances, loaf pans might be suitable.

(OT: It seems to me that the subtle flavors of sourdough get =
considerably
lost in whole-wheat bread. Whole wheat flour is generally problematic =
for
sourdough bread. Send email for details on yeasted BM ~75%WW like=20
<http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/BMWW7SEP04.jpg>.)

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

On 2004-12-19, Dick Adams > wrote:
[...]
> (OT: It seems to me that the subtle flavors of sourdough get considerably
> lost in whole-wheat bread. Whole wheat flour is generally problematic for
> sourdough bread. Send email for details on yeasted BM ~75%WW like
><http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/BMWW7SEP04.jpg>.)

I don't consider whole wheat to be "generally problematic", but you
are right that its strong flavors will mask subtle flavors. I have
found whole white wheat flour to be an excellent way to mellow out the
flavor of whole-wheat bread. This is whole grain flour milled from
hard white wheat (actually a yellow/tan color) rather than hard red
wheat. Not only is it lighter in color, but also quite a bit lighter
in flavor -- less bitter, more sweet. And it has all the fiber and
other healthy stuff that whole red wheat has. (Well, it's obviously
missing something, and that something might in fact be nutritious, but
it's still way better than refined white flour.)

King Arthur makes the only commonly-available whole white wheat flour
I've found. I generally mix it 50/50 with red wheat for my breads.
For pizza dough, I use 100% white whole wheat.

Don't expect white wheat to change the rising characteristics of whole
grain dough. It still has all that heavy, gluten-slashing bran, and
as such will not become as light and airy as refined-flour dough.
Just make sure you hydrate adequately (I recommend 70%) and give the
flour time to absorb all the water, and you'll have a moist and tender
crumb, if a little dense. (Some people *like* dense bread, you know.)

--
Randall, a whole grain snob

"Randall Nortman" wrote in message=20
ink.net...

> ... (Some people *like* dense bread, you know.)

(Some (most?) like whatever happens to come out of their oven.)

((And their wives and kids cannot get enough of it.))

"Randall Nortman" wrote in message=20
ink.net...

> ... (Some people *like* dense bread, you know.)

(Some (most?) like whatever happens to come out of their oven.)

((And their wives and kids cannot get enough of it.))

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 16:10:47 +0000, Randall Nortman wrote:

> On 2004-12-19, Dick Adams > wrote:
> [...]
>> (OT: It seems to me that the subtle flavors of sourdough get considerably
>> lost in whole-wheat bread. Whole wheat flour is generally problematic for
>> sourdough bread. Send email for details on yeasted BM ~75%WW like
>><http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/BMWW7SEP04.jpg>.)
>
> I don't consider whole wheat to be "generally problematic", but you
> are right that its strong flavors will mask subtle flavors. I have
> found whole white wheat flour to be an excellent way to mellow out the
> flavor of whole-wheat bread. This is whole grain flour milled from
> hard white wheat (actually a yellow/tan color) rather than hard red
> wheat. Not only is it lighter in color, but also quite a bit lighter
> in flavor -- less bitter, more sweet. And it has all the fiber and
> other healthy stuff that whole red wheat has. (Well, it's obviously
> missing something, and that something might in fact be nutritious, but
> it's still way better than refined white flour.)
>
> King Arthur makes the only commonly-available whole white wheat flour
> I've found. I generally mix it 50/50 with red wheat for my breads.
> For pizza dough, I use 100% white whole wheat.
>

Bob's Red Mill makes whole wheat flour from white wheat, also. I shop at
Whole Foods, which carries it. However, I like the flavor of the red wheat
better, for some reason.

> Don't expect white wheat to change the rising characteristics of whole
> grain dough. It still has all that heavy, gluten-slashing bran, and
> as such will not become as light and airy as refined-flour dough.
> Just make sure you hydrate adequately (I recommend 70%) and give the
> flour time to absorb all the water, and you'll have a moist and tender
> crumb, if a little dense. (Some people *like* dense bread, you know.)

My bread does expand enough to be passable. That is, my wife and I
like it, and you don't need reading glasses to see the holes. I just
wish it would expand in all directions (including up!) and hold its shape
a little better. ;-)

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion.

--Mac

On 2004-12-19, Dick Adams > wrote:
>
> "Randall Nortman" wrote in message
> ink.net...
>
>> ... (Some people *like* dense bread, you know.)
>
> (Some (most?) like whatever happens to come out of their oven.)
>
> ((And their wives and kids cannot get enough of it.))

My wives and kids also cannot get enough of my gravity-well-creating
whole grain loaves, which must be sliced with custom-built
diamond-tipped jackhammers.

And I don't even have any wives or kids, so you know my bread must
really be good.

(I will say, in all seriousness, that my girlfriend complains about
"artisan" breads with those big, irregular holes everybody seems to
strive for these days. I personally love that sort of bread, but
there's really no accounting for taste. If I could make light and
holey 100% whole grain breads without baker's yeast, I would, if only
to show off. That doesn't mean I don't also genuinely enjoy dense,
moist bread.)

--
Randall

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:37:25 +0000, Dick Adams wrote:

>
> "Mac" > wrote in message
> news >
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> Overall, the result is reasonable. I use the bread for sandwiches and
>> toast and just eat it plain. My wife likes it also, mostly for toast.
>>
>> But if there was something I could do to make the loaves rise higher
>> instead of spreading out, that would be a good thing, and I would love to
>> hear suggestions.
>
> Under the circumstances, loaf pans might be suitable.
>

Yeah, I might have to resort to either that or a banneton. I was hoping
someone would see an obvious flaw in my technique that would cause the
blobbing.

Maybe I ought to try making a loaf from unbleached flour or bread flour
using the same recipe and technique just for reference.

> (OT: It seems to me that the subtle flavors of sourdough get considerably
> lost in whole-wheat bread. Whole wheat flour is generally problematic for
> sourdough bread. Send email for details on yeasted BM ~75%WW like
> <http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/BMWW7SEP04.jpg>.)

That is a nice looking slice of bread. What does BM stand for in this
context?

--Mac

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 15:37:25 +0000, Dick Adams wrote:

>
> "Mac" > wrote in message
> news >
>> [ ... ]
>>
>> Overall, the result is reasonable. I use the bread for sandwiches and
>> toast and just eat it plain. My wife likes it also, mostly for toast.
>>
>> But if there was something I could do to make the loaves rise higher
>> instead of spreading out, that would be a good thing, and I would love to
>> hear suggestions.
>
> Under the circumstances, loaf pans might be suitable.
>

Yeah, I might have to resort to either that or a banneton. I was hoping
someone would see an obvious flaw in my technique that would cause the
blobbing.

Maybe I ought to try making a loaf from unbleached flour or bread flour
using the same recipe and technique just for reference.

> (OT: It seems to me that the subtle flavors of sourdough get considerably
> lost in whole-wheat bread. Whole wheat flour is generally problematic for
> sourdough bread. Send email for details on yeasted BM ~75%WW like
> <http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/BMWW7SEP04.jpg>.)

That is a nice looking slice of bread. What does BM stand for in this
context?

--Mac

I bake mostly 100%ww and have struggled with getting the loaves to
rise. Luckily even when spread, they taste great. The correct amount
of water to add to get a dough not too solid not too soft is quite
delicate, so experiment with a pinch less water. You might want to try
stretch-and-fold kneading every hour for your first fermentation--two
or three of those "tighten" the dough a lot. You might want to knead
more than 10m. You might want to try a warm final proof (so it rises
fast before spreading). You might try a pinch of vitamin C powder to
strengthen the gluten. You might try slashing and a nice hot stone.
All of these create a nice rise.
jk

> wrote in message
<snip>
> All of these create a nice rise.
> jk

Good suggestions jk, another thing that promotes rise is
setting the oven for 350 deg. F for the first 15 minutes.
Ernie

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I bake mostly 100%ww and have struggled with getting the loaves to
> rise. Luckily even when spread, they taste great.

Have you tried sieving the WW flour with a fairly fine kitchen sieve to
remove the coarser bran particles?
Graham

"Ernie" > wrote in message
> another thing that promotes rise is setting the oven
> for 350 deg. F for the first 15 minutes.
> Ernie

Ooops, Make that 375 deg.
Ernie

"Mac" > wrote in message =
news
> > <http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/BMWW7SEP04.jpg>.)
=20
> That is a nice looking slice of bread. What does BM stand for in this
> context?

The loaves are primarily for Mrs. Adams. BM could be taken to relate to
"regularity" but I meant it for Bread Machine.

I believe that the volume expansion from dough to bread is ~ 5-fold. I =
will
measure it next time that BMWW bread is made.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html





>=20
> --Mac
>

"Mac" > wrote in message =
news
> > <http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/BMWW7SEP04.jpg>.)
=20
> That is a nice looking slice of bread. What does BM stand for in this
> context?

The loaves are primarily for Mrs. Adams. BM could be taken to relate to
"regularity" but I meant it for Bread Machine.

I believe that the volume expansion from dough to bread is ~ 5-fold. I =
will
measure it next time that BMWW bread is made.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html





>=20
> --Mac
>

graham wrote:
>
> Have you tried sieving the WW flour with a fairly fine kitchen sieve to
> remove the coarser bran particles?
> Graham

Yes. I have had some sucess with mill ground WW when I wanted to
remove a portion of the bran. It also made a mess because the
siev with the right mesh was very small in diameter. For a while
I had a pretty good collection of sieves that had mesh of the
wrong size.

I have had poor luck with home ground flour. with mill ground
flour you tend to have bits of bran and particles of flour. With
my home ground flour, I tend to have bits of flour with bran
firmly attached to the flour bits. When I sift my home ground
flour, it is wasteful because I have to remove too much of the
larger grains of flour to get at the bran.

Is anybody sucessfully removing a high percentage of bran from
home ground flour? I would like to know your secrets.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

graham wrote:
>
> Have you tried sieving the WW flour with a fairly fine kitchen sieve to
> remove the coarser bran particles?
> Graham

Yes. I have had some sucess with mill ground WW when I wanted to
remove a portion of the bran. It also made a mess because the
siev with the right mesh was very small in diameter. For a while
I had a pretty good collection of sieves that had mesh of the
wrong size.

I have had poor luck with home ground flour. with mill ground
flour you tend to have bits of bran and particles of flour. With
my home ground flour, I tend to have bits of flour with bran
firmly attached to the flour bits. When I sift my home ground
flour, it is wasteful because I have to remove too much of the
larger grains of flour to get at the bran.

Is anybody sucessfully removing a high percentage of bran from
home ground flour? I would like to know your secrets.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

On 12/19/04 12:11 PM, " >
wrote:

> I bake mostly 100%ww and have struggled with getting the loaves to
> rise. Luckily even when spread, they taste great. The correct amount
> of water to add to get a dough not too solid not too soft is quite
> delicate, so experiment with a pinch less water. You might want to try
> stretch-and-fold kneading every hour for your first fermentation--two
> or three of those "tighten" the dough a lot. You might want to knead
> more than 10m. You might want to try a warm final proof (so it rises
> fast before spreading). You might try a pinch of vitamin C powder to
> strengthen the gluten. You might try slashing and a nice hot stone.
> All of these create a nice rise.
> jk

No one has mentioned the importance of good rounding or shaping technique in
this thread. Proper surface tensioning for the final proof (followed by good
slashing technique later) is a good way to get those flat loaves back on
track.

You might say that flat spreading loaves are symptomatic of losing focus
before the job is complete. Developing an active starter and attending to
the bulk build are stages that typically get more attention. Shaping is
subtle, takes practice, and, given the predominant influence of loaf pans,
not a well developed skill for most bakers (including me).

Will

>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 12/19/04 12:11 PM, " >
wrote:

> I bake mostly 100%ww and have struggled with getting the loaves to
> rise. Luckily even when spread, they taste great. The correct amount
> of water to add to get a dough not too solid not too soft is quite
> delicate, so experiment with a pinch less water. You might want to try
> stretch-and-fold kneading every hour for your first fermentation--two
> or three of those "tighten" the dough a lot. You might want to knead
> more than 10m. You might want to try a warm final proof (so it rises
> fast before spreading). You might try a pinch of vitamin C powder to
> strengthen the gluten. You might try slashing and a nice hot stone.
> All of these create a nice rise.
> jk

No one has mentioned the importance of good rounding or shaping technique in
this thread. Proper surface tensioning for the final proof (followed by good
slashing technique later) is a good way to get those flat loaves back on
track.

You might say that flat spreading loaves are symptomatic of losing focus
before the job is complete. Developing an active starter and attending to
the bulk build are stages that typically get more attention. Shaping is
subtle, takes practice, and, given the predominant influence of loaf pans,
not a well developed skill for most bakers (including me).

Will

>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

Will > wrote:

>
>No one has mentioned the importance of good rounding or shaping technique in
>this thread. Proper surface tensioning for the final proof (followed by good
>slashing technique later) is a good way to get those flat loaves back on
>track.

Short tutorial, perhaps?
Or a pointer to one?

(You mean, you don't just form the dough into a ball?)


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

Will > wrote:

>
>No one has mentioned the importance of good rounding or shaping technique in
>this thread. Proper surface tensioning for the final proof (followed by good
>slashing technique later) is a good way to get those flat loaves back on
>track.

Short tutorial, perhaps?
Or a pointer to one?

(You mean, you don't just form the dough into a ball?)


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:34:58 GMT, Gary Woods
> wrote:

>Short tutorial, perhaps?
>Or a pointer to one?
>
>(You mean, you don't just form the dough into a ball?)

Howdy,

With apologies to Will, I will give it a shot...

Rather than just "forming the dough into a ball" think of
the process as "stretching" the surface of the dough so that
it can then be "pinched" together at the bottom.

An image may help here...

Suppose you had a sheet of very thin rubber (of the sort
that could have been used to make a balloon).

Think of stretching that rubber over the dough, around the
sides, eventually to the bottom, and pinching it together
down there.

This process is often described as creating a "gluten cloak"
and it, in effect, "holds things together" so that the dough
tends to spread less.

I hope that this is useful...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 19:34:58 GMT, Gary Woods
> wrote:

>Short tutorial, perhaps?
>Or a pointer to one?
>
>(You mean, you don't just form the dough into a ball?)

Howdy,

With apologies to Will, I will give it a shot...

Rather than just "forming the dough into a ball" think of
the process as "stretching" the surface of the dough so that
it can then be "pinched" together at the bottom.

An image may help here...

Suppose you had a sheet of very thin rubber (of the sort
that could have been used to make a balloon).

Think of stretching that rubber over the dough, around the
sides, eventually to the bottom, and pinching it together
down there.

This process is often described as creating a "gluten cloak"
and it, in effect, "holds things together" so that the dough
tends to spread less.

I hope that this is useful...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> graham wrote:
>>
>> Have you tried sieving the WW flour with a fairly fine kitchen sieve to
>> remove the coarser bran particles?
>> Graham
>
> Yes. I have had some sucess with mill ground WW when I wanted to
> remove a portion of the bran. It also made a mess because the
> siev with the right mesh was very small in diameter. For a while
> I had a pretty good collection of sieves that had mesh of the
> wrong size.
>
> I have had poor luck with home ground flour. with mill ground
> flour you tend to have bits of bran and particles of flour. With
> my home ground flour, I tend to have bits of flour with bran
> firmly attached to the flour bits. When I sift my home ground
> flour, it is wasteful because I have to remove too much of the
> larger grains of flour to get at the bran.
>
> Is anybody sucessfully removing a high percentage of bran from
> home ground flour? I would like to know your secrets.
>
I find it varies from brand to brand or possibly batch to batch within a
brand. I have extracted as little as 15% and as much as 25% by weight.
The former was almost pure bran but the latter had a lot of flour granules
stuck to bran. I use a ~8" stainless steel kitchen sieve, the type that you
are more likely to find in a high end kitchen store. A 15-20% extraction
rate seems to be a good bread-making/health-food compromise. You can always
add the coarse fraction to your breakfast cereal or make bran muffins.
Graham

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> graham wrote:
>>
>> Have you tried sieving the WW flour with a fairly fine kitchen sieve to
>> remove the coarser bran particles?
>> Graham
>
> Yes. I have had some sucess with mill ground WW when I wanted to
> remove a portion of the bran. It also made a mess because the
> siev with the right mesh was very small in diameter. For a while
> I had a pretty good collection of sieves that had mesh of the
> wrong size.
>
> I have had poor luck with home ground flour. with mill ground
> flour you tend to have bits of bran and particles of flour. With
> my home ground flour, I tend to have bits of flour with bran
> firmly attached to the flour bits. When I sift my home ground
> flour, it is wasteful because I have to remove too much of the
> larger grains of flour to get at the bran.
>
> Is anybody sucessfully removing a high percentage of bran from
> home ground flour? I would like to know your secrets.
>
I find it varies from brand to brand or possibly batch to batch within a
brand. I have extracted as little as 15% and as much as 25% by weight.
The former was almost pure bran but the latter had a lot of flour granules
stuck to bran. I use a ~8" stainless steel kitchen sieve, the type that you
are more likely to find in a high end kitchen store. A 15-20% extraction
rate seems to be a good bread-making/health-food compromise. You can always
add the coarse fraction to your breakfast cereal or make bran muffins.
Graham

Kenneth > wrote:

>Think of stretching that rubber over the dough, around the
>sides, eventually to the bottom, and pinching it together
>down there.

I _think_ I've got it, along with a couple of images I found showing the
dough being stretched, but not what was done with it then.. probably sort
of stretching and tucking under.

Hold on; I'm sure I've got a Klein bottle somewhere amongst the rarely used
utensils, in the back of the cabinet with the sign "beware of the panther."

Thanks.... a report and perhaps pictures will follow late tomorrow.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 23:17:00 GMT, Gary Woods
> wrote:

>Kenneth > wrote:
>
>>Think of stretching that rubber over the dough, around the
>>sides, eventually to the bottom, and pinching it together
>>down there.
>
>I _think_ I've got it, along with a couple of images I found showing the
>dough being stretched, but not what was done with it then.. probably sort
>of stretching and tucking under.
>
>Hold on; I'm sure I've got a Klein bottle somewhere amongst the rarely used
>utensils, in the back of the cabinet with the sign "beware of the panther."
>
>Thanks.... a report and perhaps pictures will follow late tomorrow.
>
>
>Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
>Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

Hi Gary,

No, no, no... You should not be using a Klein bottle at all
for this sort of baking.

But, if you have trouble sticking the dough together at the
bottom, you might want to use a Möbius strip as a tie.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

I use Guisto's "ultra bread" whole wheat flour, ground quite fine, so
no need to sieve.

I use Guisto's "ultra bread" whole wheat flour, ground quite fine, so
no need to sieve.

"Kenneth" > wrote:
>Rather than just "forming the dough into a ball" think of the process as
>"stretching" the surface of the dough so that it can then be "pinched"
>together at the bottom...

Proper shaping is a difficult skill to learn. Before I ever started working
in a bakery all I knew about shaping was what I had learned in books. I
thought I had a good idea how to shape a loaf, but I found out that I really
had no clue. It took me many weeks of shaping hundreds of loaves a day
before I could form a properly shaped tight loaf that would hold it's shape
nicely.

What the books don't tell you is that it takes considerable time to develop
a "feel" for the dough. Kenneth gives a nice example for how to shape a
loaf, but it is a difficult process to learn...even more so for those
attempting to learn on their own. Bad shaping habits can develop without
constant feedback from someone who knows what they are doing. I've seen many
professional bakers who have been baking for years who still can't shape
very well, simply because they lacked that feedback when they were learning.

That being said, I believe the average home baker is at a disadvantage when
trying to get a taught well-shaped loaf. Baskets or pans can definitely help
to retain a loafs shape and allow for a higher rise in many cases.

Trevor

"Kenneth" > wrote:
>Rather than just "forming the dough into a ball" think of the process as
>"stretching" the surface of the dough so that it can then be "pinched"
>together at the bottom...

Proper shaping is a difficult skill to learn. Before I ever started working
in a bakery all I knew about shaping was what I had learned in books. I
thought I had a good idea how to shape a loaf, but I found out that I really
had no clue. It took me many weeks of shaping hundreds of loaves a day
before I could form a properly shaped tight loaf that would hold it's shape
nicely.

What the books don't tell you is that it takes considerable time to develop
a "feel" for the dough. Kenneth gives a nice example for how to shape a
loaf, but it is a difficult process to learn...even more so for those
attempting to learn on their own. Bad shaping habits can develop without
constant feedback from someone who knows what they are doing. I've seen many
professional bakers who have been baking for years who still can't shape
very well, simply because they lacked that feedback when they were learning.

That being said, I believe the average home baker is at a disadvantage when
trying to get a taught well-shaped loaf. Baskets or pans can definitely help
to retain a loafs shape and allow for a higher rise in many cases.

Trevor

"Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message=20
ink.net...

> I've seen many professional bakers who have been baking for=20
> years who still can't shape very well ...

Well, then, so much for professional bakers.

> That being said, I believe the average home baker is at a=20
> disadvantage when trying to get a taught well-shaped loaf.

Particularly if he taking advice from these professional bakers.

> Baskets or pans can definitely help to retain a loafs shape=20
> and allow for a higher rise in many cases.

Would you believe that home bakers, in some cases, can do
it without baskets or pans? See for instance:
http://www.cookingwithcrack.com/bread/sequence2/
(to choose one example from many).

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Dick Adams" wrote:
>Would you believe that home bakers, in some cases, can do it without
>baskets or pans? See for instance:
http://www.cookingwithcrack.com/bread/sequence2/
(to choose one example from many).

Don't be so sensitive Dick, no insult was intended. I'm just stating the
simple fact that good loaf forming technique is more difficult (not
impossible) for the average home baker to learn. I've been there so I'm not
just talking out of my *ss. Nice loaf, by the way.

Trevor

"Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message=20
link.net...

> I'm just stating the simple fact that good loaf forming technique=20
> is more difficult (not impossible) for the average home baker to=20
> learn. I've been there so I'm not just talking out of my *ss.

It is probably more difficult to teach than to learn, particularly
if it is attempted via text. Maybe you could give it a try?

It does not seem to me that "shaping" and "forming" are the=20
right words.=20

> Nice loaf, by the way.

The example I chose was by Rob Gardner. =20

--
DickA

"Trevor J. Wilson" > wrote in message=20
link.net...

> I'm just stating the simple fact that good loaf forming technique=20
> is more difficult (not impossible) for the average home baker to=20
> learn. I've been there so I'm not just talking out of my *ss.

It is probably more difficult to teach than to learn, particularly
if it is attempted via text. Maybe you could give it a try?

It does not seem to me that "shaping" and "forming" are the=20
right words.=20

> Nice loaf, by the way.

The example I chose was by Rob Gardner. =20

--
DickA

"Dick Adams" wrote in message
...

>It is probably more difficult to teach than to learn, >particularly if it
>is attempted via text. Maybe you could >give it a try?

When I'm teaching new bakers at work how to shape loaves it is a difficult
and time consuming process -- it usually takes many weeks. I could not
possibly teach through text...it's just something that takes time, though
you are probably right in that it is more difficult to teach than to learn.
With enough time anyone can learn, but few people are effective teachers
(which is why I'm the default teacher at work -- everyone else gets
frustrated trying to teach new employees).

>It does not seem to me that "shaping" and "forming" are >the right words.

What would you suggest?

Trevor