Please settle a dispute between my wife and me. I am unable to find the
answer in FAQ's. When taking a starter from the frig to feed and there
is a sizable quantity of black liquid on top, should this be disposed
of, or incorporated into the starter? And what is this black liquid?
Thanks!
Ned

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:58:11 -0600, Ned Gatewood wrote:

> Please settle a dispute between my wife and me. I am unable to find the
> answer in FAQ's. When taking a starter from the frig to feed and there
> is a sizable quantity of black liquid on top, should this be disposed
> of, or incorporated into the starter?

I don't think there is a right answer. I have seen both courses
recommended. Personally I always stir my starter up until it is
homogeneous before I use it.

> And what is this black liquid?

Around here, people call it "hooch" or "refrigerator hooch." I guess it is
just an aqueous solution containing fermentation byproducts, the soluble
components of flour, and protoplasm. If I had to guess, I would say that
it is mostly fermentation byproducts.

> Thanks!
> Ned

You're welcome.

--Mac

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:58:11 -0600, Ned Gatewood wrote:

> Please settle a dispute between my wife and me. I am unable to find the
> answer in FAQ's. When taking a starter from the frig to feed and there
> is a sizable quantity of black liquid on top, should this be disposed
> of, or incorporated into the starter?

I don't think there is a right answer. I have seen both courses
recommended. Personally I always stir my starter up until it is
homogeneous before I use it.

> And what is this black liquid?

Around here, people call it "hooch" or "refrigerator hooch." I guess it is
just an aqueous solution containing fermentation byproducts, the soluble
components of flour, and protoplasm. If I had to guess, I would say that
it is mostly fermentation byproducts.

> Thanks!
> Ned

You're welcome.

--Mac

"Ned Gatewood" > wrote in message
Please settle a dispute between my wife and me. I am unable to find the answer in FAQ's. When taking a starter from the frig to feed and there is a sizable quantity of black liquid on top, should this be disposed of, or incorporated into the starter? And what is this black liquid?
Thanks!
Ned

That liquid is Hooch. I think the word is from the bootleg era.
It is alcohol and other by products. I say pour it off because
the alcohol will eventually kill the yeast. Others mix it back
into the starter.
Ernie

Thanks for your reply! ---Ned
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mac wrote:

>On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:58:11 -0600, Ned Gatewood wrote:
>
>
>
>>Please settle a dispute between my wife and me. I am unable to find the
>>answer in FAQ's. When taking a starter from the frig to feed and there
>>is a sizable quantity of black liquid on top, should this be disposed
>>of, or incorporated into the starter?
>>
>>
>
>I don't think there is a right answer. I have seen both courses
>recommended. Personally I always stir my starter up until it is
>homogeneous before I use it.
>
>
>
>>And what is this black liquid?
>>
>>
>
>Around here, people call it "hooch" or "refrigerator hooch." I guess it is
>just an aqueous solution containing fermentation byproducts, the soluble
>components of flour, and protoplasm. If I had to guess, I would say that
>it is mostly fermentation byproducts.
>
>
>
>>Thanks!
>>Ned
>>
>>
>
>You're welcome.
>
>--Mac
>
>
>

Thanks for your reply! ---Ned
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ernie wrote:

> "Ned Gatewood" >> wrote in
> message
> Please settle a dispute between my wife and me. I am unable to find
> the answer in FAQ's. When taking a starter from the frig to feed and
> there is a sizable quantity of black liquid on top, should this be
> disposed of, or incorporated into the starter? And what is this black
> liquid?
> Thanks!
> Ned
>
> That liquid is Hooch. I think the word is from the bootleg era.
> It is alcohol and other by products. I say pour it off because
> the alcohol will eventually kill the yeast. Others mix it back
> into the starter.
> Ernie

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:58:11 -0600, Ned Gatewood
> wrote:

>Please settle a dispute between my wife and me. I am unable to find the
>answer in FAQ's. When taking a starter from the frig to feed and there
>is a sizable quantity of black liquid on top, should this be disposed
>of, or incorporated into the starter? And what is this black liquid?
>Thanks!
>Ned

Hi Ned,

You should avoid this situation by feeding the starter more
frequently. The hooch is an indication of "starvation."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:58:11 -0600, Ned Gatewood
> wrote:

>Please settle a dispute between my wife and me. I am unable to find the
>answer in FAQ's. When taking a starter from the frig to feed and there
>is a sizable quantity of black liquid on top, should this be disposed
>of, or incorporated into the starter? And what is this black liquid?
>Thanks!
>Ned

Hi Ned,

You should avoid this situation by feeding the starter more
frequently. The hooch is an indication of "starvation."

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:58:11 -0600, Ned Gatewood
> > wrote:
>
>>Please settle a dispute between my wife and me. I am unable to find the
>>answer in FAQ's. When taking a starter from the frig to feed and there
>>is a sizable quantity of black liquid on top, should this be disposed
>>of, or incorporated into the starter? And what is this black liquid?
>>Thanks!
>>Ned
>
> Hi Ned,
>
> You should avoid this situation by feeding the starter more
> frequently. The hooch is an indication of "starvation."
>
> All the best,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Really?! According to my "notes" the starter should be fed 2 TBL flour & 2
TBL water every 8 days. Since my calendar won't remind me every 8 days I
feed it every 7 days! But hooch appears before that. So I should maybe
feed it daily? Every other day? My starter is already at least 4 cups.
There won't be room to store all of it if it is fed daily. I'm baking maybe
every 3rd week. Two loaves meaning 2 C starter for the sponge.

Advice welcomed! I'm still new at this and got that information either from
this ng or from a web site somewhere. Probably the latter.

--
Kathy
aka smiley

In God We Trust

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 15:58:11 -0600, Ned Gatewood
> > wrote:
>
>>Please settle a dispute between my wife and me. I am unable to find the
>>answer in FAQ's. When taking a starter from the frig to feed and there
>>is a sizable quantity of black liquid on top, should this be disposed
>>of, or incorporated into the starter? And what is this black liquid?
>>Thanks!
>>Ned
>
> Hi Ned,
>
> You should avoid this situation by feeding the starter more
> frequently. The hooch is an indication of "starvation."
>
> All the best,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Really?! According to my "notes" the starter should be fed 2 TBL flour & 2
TBL water every 8 days. Since my calendar won't remind me every 8 days I
feed it every 7 days! But hooch appears before that. So I should maybe
feed it daily? Every other day? My starter is already at least 4 cups.
There won't be room to store all of it if it is fed daily. I'm baking maybe
every 3rd week. Two loaves meaning 2 C starter for the sponge.

Advice welcomed! I'm still new at this and got that information either from
this ng or from a web site somewhere. Probably the latter.

--
Kathy
aka smiley

In God We Trust

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:30:57 -0500, "Smiley" >
wrote:

>Really?! According to my "notes" the starter should be fed 2 TBL flour & 2
>TBL water every 8 days. Since my calendar won't remind me every 8 days I
>feed it every 7 days! But hooch appears before that. So I should maybe
>feed it daily? Every other day? My starter is already at least 4 cups.
>There won't be room to store all of it if it is fed daily. I'm baking maybe
>every 3rd week.

I only bake every few weeks and I save a modest amount of starter --
maybe a 1/4 cup -- in the fridge until two or three days before
baking. At that point, I reduce it to a tablespoon or two and feed
it. I feed every twelve hours or so and leave it out at room
temperature to get it revved up for baking. I generally add enough
flour and water to approximately double the amount each time. I get
the impression that general feed proportion is necessary to be
effective. If that feeding rate heads toward too much starter, I'll
toss some of the starter before the next feeding.

I would expect that adding a fixed amount of feed to an ever-growing
accumulation of starter would tend to become less and less effective.

If I go past 3 or 4 weeks of refrigerated non-use, I'll pare down the
amount, feed it, and put back in the fridge. I've maintained
successful rye and white wheat starters this way for at least 6 or 7
years.

DaveT

At 09:30 PM 12/29/2004, Kathy wrote:

>Really?! According to my "notes" the starter should be fed 2 TBL flour & 2
>TBL water every 8 days.

Good luck! You'll need it with that method.

Please see: http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html

I put this up because there is so much SD BS going on, it's unbelievable!

> Since my calendar won't remind me every 8 days I
>feed it every 7 days! But hooch appears before that. So I should maybe
>feed it daily?

Better every 8 - 12 hours when it is going at full blast.

Yesterday, I posted this in a similar context:

Growth rates are geometric in the area of doubling maybe every 1 1/2 - 2
1/2 hours, so going at full blast, you can have like a 64-fold increase in
12 hours and a 4096-fold increase in 24 hours if no hindering factors
(souring, nutrient depletion) come into play which happen

> Every other day? My starter is already at least 4 cups.
>There won't be room to store all of it if it is fed daily. I'm baking maybe
>every 3rd week. Two loaves meaning 2 C starter for the sponge.

You'll need to store it in the fridge to keep the activity down, then -
before making bread, refresh it maybe twice by doubling or tripling the
original starter flour so it gets active again and then take what you need
for the bread and put the remainder back into the fridge for next time.

>Advice welcomed! I'm still new at this and got that information either from
>this ng or from a web site somewhere. Probably the latter.

To know the source would be interesting.

Samartha


>--
>Kathy
>aka smiley
>
>In God We Trust

Again - I am not part of any "We" crowd, please don't assume I am part of
any "We" crowd! "We" crowds are for folks... well, I better stop.

"We are", "We do", "Our", "They" - disgusting!

>_______________________________________________
>Rec.food.sourdough mailing list

remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:30:57 -0500, "Smiley"
> wrote:

>Really?! According to my "notes" the starter should be fed 2 TBL flour & 2
>TBL water every 8 days.

Howdy,

Of course, I have no way to react to information you might
have in your notes, but most find that at room temperatures,
the starters do best when fed every 8-12 hours.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Hi Samartha,

Thank you for the link which I have looked at briefly and will review in
depth when time permits.

Here is the link to the source of my starter. It's kind of hard to read
because it is a picture but I printed it out and was able to mark it so it
was easier to read. The information about feeding it every 8 days is on the
following page.
http://frenchmeadow.com/artcle2.htm

Kathy
aka smiley

In God We Trust

On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 07:51:30 -0500, "Smiley"
> wrote:

>The information about feeding it every 8 days is on the
>following page.

Hi Kathy,

As I believe we have suggested, feeding the refrigerated
starter every week or so is a fine way to keep it alive in
storage.

But, when you want to ready it for baking, it should be fed
every 8 hours or so, and that seems to be just what your
article says as well.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Samartha" wrote:=20
=20
> Please see: http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html

> I put this up because there is so much SD BS going on, it's=20
> unbelievable!

Great! That should decisively end the BS.

Next week we are going to discuss starting the cooking fire by
rubbing two sticks together.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Dick Adams" > wrote:

>Next week we are going to discuss starting the cooking fire by
>rubbing two sticks together.

And some of the first iron smelters were near me in the Adirondacks, so
maybe I can make a pan or two.

I just woke up a starter that has been in the fridge for a couple of weeks-
put in a large dollop of KA flour, a small dollop of lukewarm flour,
stirred, and into the proofing chamber AKA upper oven w/light bulb on.
Nothing measured.... it's always worked, but now that I know I'm not doing
it properly, it may just sit there!

On the plus side, I took a few cuttings from an indoor rosemary plant,
stripping the excess foliage with my fingers. So now I have a little fresh
seasoning, and I smell a lot better than usual.

Peace and good ferments,


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

On 12/30/04 10:58 AM, "Gary Woods" > wrote:

> <snip>

> I just woke up a starter that has been in the fridge for a couple of weeks-
> put in a large dollop of KA flour, a small dollop of lukewarm flour,
> stirred, and into the proofing chamber AKA upper oven w/light bulb on.
> Nothing measured.... it's always worked, but now that I know I'm not doing
> it properly, it may just sit there!

You could do that or...

You could get out your KA again, gather another dollop as close as possible
to the last one, so be sure to use the same spoon, and then: WEIGHT IT. Do
the same with the lukewarm water.

Now you know what you need to know. For fun, you could tell the wife it was
reverse engineered.

Will

On 12/30/04 10:58 AM, "Gary Woods" > wrote:

> <snip>

> I just woke up a starter that has been in the fridge for a couple of weeks-
> put in a large dollop of KA flour, a small dollop of lukewarm flour,
> stirred, and into the proofing chamber AKA upper oven w/light bulb on.
> Nothing measured.... it's always worked, but now that I know I'm not doing
> it properly, it may just sit there!

You could do that or...

You could get out your KA again, gather another dollop as close as possible
to the last one, so be sure to use the same spoon, and then: WEIGHT IT. Do
the same with the lukewarm water.

Now you know what you need to know. For fun, you could tell the wife it was
reverse engineered.

Will

Dick Adams wrote:
> Next week we are going to discuss starting the cooking fire by
> rubbing two sticks together.


Great....will be looking forward to it........ Personally I think the left
stick should be held stationary while the right stick moves into the desired
"firezone"...I know many will claim the opposite but those are largely
victims of a substandard public education. I know as well that many will
argue ad nauseam over desired wood type but the moisture content of the
stick (a small reasonably priced moisture meter is invaluable here) matters
way more....I do hope depth of the fire pit gets some attention as well as
desired masonry mass (rocks?) surrounding the fire......such a discussion
certainly makes one look forward to the new year, speaking of ......HAPPY
NEW YEAR.....Soggy

Dick Adams wrote:
> Next week we are going to discuss starting the cooking fire by
> rubbing two sticks together.


Great....will be looking forward to it........ Personally I think the left
stick should be held stationary while the right stick moves into the desired
"firezone"...I know many will claim the opposite but those are largely
victims of a substandard public education. I know as well that many will
argue ad nauseam over desired wood type but the moisture content of the
stick (a small reasonably priced moisture meter is invaluable here) matters
way more....I do hope depth of the fire pit gets some attention as well as
desired masonry mass (rocks?) surrounding the fire......such a discussion
certainly makes one look forward to the new year, speaking of ......HAPPY
NEW YEAR.....Soggy

Will > wrote:

>You could get out your KA again, gather another dollop as close as possible
>to the last one, so be sure to use the same spoon, and then: WEIGHT IT

Actually, I'm trying to find a certified copy of the platinum-iridium
standard dollop kept in Paris for reference.

<Python>

THIS IS GETTING MUCH TOO SILLY, AND I DEMAND YOU STOP IT AT ONCE!

</Python>

And I just got home, and the starter is foaming nicely, though imprecisely.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

Will > wrote:

>You could get out your KA again, gather another dollop as close as possible
>to the last one, so be sure to use the same spoon, and then: WEIGHT IT

Actually, I'm trying to find a certified copy of the platinum-iridium
standard dollop kept in Paris for reference.

<Python>

THIS IS GETTING MUCH TOO SILLY, AND I DEMAND YOU STOP IT AT ONCE!

</Python>

And I just got home, and the starter is foaming nicely, though imprecisely.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G