A friend asked me when I was going to share some of this bread, so I
made some 40% rye bread tonight to bring her tomorrow. Nothing like a
little pressure! No big fiasco tonight, although I forgot to score the
panned loaf. No biggie. Smells good.

A little harder tonight to keep the dough warm enough, but for some
reason both my starters are just going bonkers with activity. Chill out
yeasties!

Anyway, here are photos from tonight:

http://homepage.mac.com/mbgoodman/PhotoAlbum41.html

--
Mary Beth
Orientation::Quilter

http://www.quiltr.com
http://www.fruitcakesociety.org


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"Mary Beth Goodman" > showed in message
...

> http://homepage.mac.com/mbgoodman/PhotoAlbum41.html

Looks like you did something right there, MB. Could you give us
a gleaning of the method without we all go out and buy the book?

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com

In article >,
"Dick Adams" > wrote:

> > http://homepage.mac.com/mbgoodman/PhotoAlbum41.html
>
> Looks like you did something right there, MB. Could you give us
> a gleaning of the method without we all go out and buy the book?


Well, he's pretty clear about the technique -- mix the mature culture
into the water and make your build with whole rye flour and water.
Mature for 14-16 hours at about 70F. Cover with a dusting of rye flour.
Should be domed and have a pleasing tang.

When the build is ready, mix the dough by combining all the ingredients.
He cautions against adding too much flour since he prefers a "loose
textured" dough. He also says that as your percentage of rye increases
the mixing should be gentler in order not to damage the dough. For the
40% rye, a total of about 7 minutes of mixing/machine kneading is called
for. Last couple times, I've made sure that it got the whole time and
it made a difference in the lightness.

Bulk fermentation after mixing is about 1 hour. Dough folding is not
required for any of his rye formulas but I found that turning the dough
out and and just giving it a few turns made it a little more cohesive
while adding a minimum of additional flour.

After the bulk fermentation, divide the dough and shape. Only a short
5-10 minute rest is needed.

Final fermentation is 50-60 minutes. Breads should be baked when 85-90%
risen. Slash prior to steaming the oven. Fill the oven with steam
prior to lading then steam again once loaded. 6-10 seconds is adequate.

Rye bread with up to 60% rye gets cooled -- 24 hours of resting. Eat
and enjoy.

--
Mary Beth
Orientation::Quilter

http://www.quiltr.com
http://www.fruitcakesociety.org

Thanks for your reply, MB.
( namely )

I got some questions:

> Well, he's pretty clear about the technique -- mix the mature culture=20
> into the water and make your build with whole rye flour and water. =20
> Mature for 14-16 hours at about 70F.=20

Does mature mean active? I guess a 'build' is a bowl of rye glop, in=20
this case. So you inoculate some water with culture and add whole
rye flour to make a batter? dough? What hydration? Like 100%
for equal parts by weight of rye flour and water? So now we are=20
going to let it sit at room temperature for ~15 hours.

> Cover with a dusting of rye flour.=20
> Should be domed and have a pleasing tang.

So why do you suppose we dusted? What do you mean "domed"?
A tang is a taste, right? -- you tasted it? Or was that a smell?

> When the build is ready, mix the dough by combining all the =
ingredients. =20
> He cautions against adding too much flour since he prefers a "loose=20
> textured" dough.

Maybe we could express the right proportions as a (bakers' per cent)=20
hydration? =20

> He also says that as your percentage of rye increases=20
> the mixing should be gentler in order not to damage the dough. For the =

> 40% rye, a total of about 7 minutes of mixing/machine kneading is =
called=20
> for. Last couple times, I've made sure that it got the whole time and =

> it made a difference in the lightness.

40% rye, so what is the rest? WW? Bread flour? I suppose we are
using a dough hook? How do you suppose one would be gentle for=20
higher rye proportions -- slow mixing speed or what?

> Bulk fermentation after mixing is about 1 hour. Dough folding is not=20
> required for any of his rye formulas but I found that turning the =
dough=20
> out and and just giving it a few turns made it a little more cohesive =

> while adding a minimum of additional flour.

> After the bulk fermentation, divide the dough and shape. Only a short =

> 5-10 minute rest is needed.

Rest between dividing and shaping?

> Final fermentation is 50-60 minutes. Breads should be baked when =
85-90%=20
> risen. Slash prior to steaming the oven. Fill the oven with steam=20
> prior to lading then steam again once loaded. 6-10 seconds is =
adequate.

I could not guess how much more it was going to rise. As far as =
steaming
is concerned, Mrs. Adams will not let me do it any more, at least to the
degree that shows any effect at all. Maybe it will work without steam.

> Rye bread with up to 60% rye gets cooled -- 24 hours of resting.

D'ya mean 24 hrs. in the fridge after dividing and before shaping, as=20
above?, or after shaping? Probably in a container to prevent drying?

The reason I ask about this is that I made some part-rye the other day.
Probably I made it much in the same way as you made yours, which
is to say without any attention to Detmold requirements, nor to the
problem of keeping adequate acidity through several prefermentation =
stages.
It tasted good, but hardly rose by 2-fold, and rose too much =
horizontally.
Your loaf, on the other hand, looked like it had risen unexpectedly
much.=20

Thanks for your help, in advance.
=20
--
DickA=20

In article >,
"Dick Adams" > wrote:

> Does mature mean active? I guess a 'build' is a bowl of rye glop, in
> this case. So you inoculate some water with culture and add whole
> rye flour to make a batter? dough? What hydration? Like 100%
> for equal parts by weight of rye flour and water? So now we are
> going to let it sit at room temperature for ~15 hours.

I mean that I took some of my starter culture and made a preferment of
more whole rye flour, water and starter. 83% hydration. Maybe your
room temp is 70F but mine isn't LOL so there you have it.


>
> > Cover with a dusting of rye flour.
> > Should be domed and have a pleasing tang.
>
> So why do you suppose we dusted? What do you mean "domed"?
> A tang is a taste, right? -- you tasted it? Or was that a smell?

Domed as in having risen to make a nice round top. Dusted to provide
some moisture barrier I'd say from what I remember in the reading.

Tang is definitely what I would use to describe both the smell and
taste. Not overwhelming but definitely tangy.


> > When the build is ready, mix the dough by combining all the ingredients.
> > He cautions against adding too much flour since he prefers a "loose
> > textured" dough.
>
> Maybe we could express the right proportions as a (bakers' per cent)
> hydration?

baker's % for the overall formula is 68%

>
> > He also says that as your percentage of rye increases
> > the mixing should be gentler in order not to damage the dough. For the
> > 40% rye, a total of about 7 minutes of mixing/machine kneading is called
> > for. Last couple times, I've made sure that it got the whole time and
> > it made a difference in the lightness.
>
> 40% rye, so what is the rest? WW? Bread flour? I suppose we are
> using a dough hook? How do you suppose one would be gentle for
> higher rye proportions -- slow mixing speed or what?


Yes, the rest is high-gluten bread flour. I used a dough hook which by
its nature means that you can only use low speed. I think the caution
means don't think that kneading for longer periods gets you better
results because that's not true.

>
> > Bulk fermentation after mixing is about 1 hour. Dough folding is not
> > required for any of his rye formulas but I found that turning the dough
> > out and and just giving it a few turns made it a little more cohesive
> > while adding a minimum of additional flour.
>
> > After the bulk fermentation, divide the dough and shape. Only a short
> > 5-10 minute rest is needed.
>
> Rest between dividing and shaping?

Just 5-10 minutes is fine.

>
> > Final fermentation is 50-60 minutes. Breads should be baked when 85-90%
> > risen. Slash prior to steaming the oven. Fill the oven with steam
> > prior to lading then steam again once loaded. 6-10 seconds is adequate.
>
> I could not guess how much more it was going to rise. As far as steaming
> is concerned, Mrs. Adams will not let me do it any more, at least to the
> degree that shows any effect at all. Maybe it will work without steam.


If I hadn't made this before I'd figure on what double would be and bake
a little before that. I hear Mrs. Adams -- having broken my oven light
once recently by hitting it accidently with water. Ooops. Quite
spectacular. Now I aim my spritzer towards a wall away from the light!


>
> > Rye bread with up to 60% rye gets cooled -- 24 hours of resting.
>
> D'ya mean 24 hrs. in the fridge after dividing and before shaping, as
> above?, or after shaping? Probably in a container to prevent drying?

Actually, he wants the baked bread to rest for about 24 hours. I didn't
write that very clearly.

For the bread I made there is no retard period in the frig at all.
Basically the process is: Sourdough build; mix dough, bulk
fermentation, divide and shape, final fermentation; bake.


>
> The reason I ask about this is that I made some part-rye the other day.
> Probably I made it much in the same way as you made yours, which
> is to say without any attention to Detmold requirements, nor to the
> problem of keeping adequate acidity through several prefermentation stages.
> It tasted good, but hardly rose by 2-fold, and rose too much horizontally.
> Your loaf, on the other hand, looked like it had risen unexpectedly
> much.

From what I've read in Hamelman and other places, as the percentage of
rye flour increases, the strength of the dough and its ability to keep
its shape during baking decreases. So breads with 80-90% whole rye need
to be baked in pans.

I thought this batch definitely came out with a little more gluten
development than my earlier batches. The dough is so very sticky that
this and the previous batch I turned out after mixing by machine and
didn't really knead it by hand, but just gave it a few turns and folds
before returning it to the bowl for the bulk step.

--
Mary Beth
Orientation::Quilter

http://www.quiltr.com
http://www.fruitcakesociety.org


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