Since I am not the proud owner of a gas oven (with a pilot light) that
would hold sourdough starters at desired temperatures, I am finding it
a challenge to keep preferments with a pancake-batter consistency at
temperatures of c. 80°F for periods of up to 10 hours.

My yoghourt-maker has been shown to hold preferments at significantly
higher temperatures (90 - 100°F), shredded styrofoam packaging does not
keep the batter warm for the desired time periods and, while it may
not be an insuperable problem to mix a pancake-batter in a wide-necked
vacuum flask, it is difficult to coax such batters to come out. It would
be easier if the batter were a lot thinner.

Is there any published information of the influence of hydration levels
on the <times|temperatures> ranges appropriate in the preferment stages
of baking sourdough breads?

Or is pioneering work the order of the day?

Felix Karpfen
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:46:44 +1100, Felix Karpfen
> wrote:

>Since I am not the proud owner of a gas oven (with a pilot light) that
>would hold sourdough starters at desired temperatures, I am finding it
>a challenge to keep preferments with a pancake-batter consistency at
>temperatures of c. 80°F for periods of up to 10 hours.
>
>My yoghourt-maker has been shown to hold preferments at significantly
>higher temperatures (90 - 100°F), shredded styrofoam packaging does not
>keep the batter warm for the desired time periods and, while it may
>not be an insuperable problem to mix a pancake-batter in a wide-necked
>vacuum flask, it is difficult to coax such batters to come out. It would
>be easier if the batter were a lot thinner.
>
>Is there any published information of the influence of hydration levels
>on the <times|temperatures> ranges appropriate in the preferment stages
>of baking sourdough breads?
>
>Or is pioneering work the order of the day?
>
>Felix Karpfen

Hi Felix,

There may be published studies, but I don't know them, but
the facts are evident:

Within limits, the higher the hydration, the more rapid the
fermentation. It is very easy to see this in your own
kitchen.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 07:46:44 +1100, Felix Karpfen
> wrote:

>Since I am not the proud owner of a gas oven (with a pilot light) that
>would hold sourdough starters at desired temperatures, I am finding it
>a challenge to keep preferments with a pancake-batter consistency at
>temperatures of c. 80°F for periods of up to 10 hours.
>
>My yoghourt-maker has been shown to hold preferments at significantly
>higher temperatures (90 - 100°F), shredded styrofoam packaging does not
>keep the batter warm for the desired time periods and, while it may
>not be an insuperable problem to mix a pancake-batter in a wide-necked
>vacuum flask, it is difficult to coax such batters to come out. It would
>be easier if the batter were a lot thinner.
>
>Is there any published information of the influence of hydration levels
>on the <times|temperatures> ranges appropriate in the preferment stages
>of baking sourdough breads?
>
>Or is pioneering work the order of the day?
>
>Felix Karpfen

Hi Felix,

There may be published studies, but I don't know them, but
the facts are evident:

Within limits, the higher the hydration, the more rapid the
fermentation. It is very easy to see this in your own
kitchen.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Felix Karpfen wrote:
>
> Since I am not the proud owner of a gas oven (with a pilot light) that
> would hold sourdough starters at desired temperatures, I am finding it
> a challenge to keep preferments with a pancake-batter consistency at
> temperatures of c. 80°F for periods of up to 10 hours.
>
Whatever gave you the idea that you need to keep your
"preferment" warm? I have no idea why you would want to keep
pancake batter consistansy sourdough culture at 80F for 10 hours
Unless, of course, you have wandered off into the land of rye.
There I have forgotten some of the incantations as well as some
of the procedures.

In general, all else being equal, thicker cultures can go longer
between refreshments than thinner cultures. Consider making the
dough the final refreshment.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

"Felix Karpfen" > wrote...
> Since I am not the proud owner of a gas oven (with a pilot light) that
> would hold sourdough starters at desired temperatures, I am finding it
> a challenge to keep preferments with a pancake-batter consistency at
> temperatures of c. 80°F for periods of up to 10 hours.

I just got my Oregon Trail sourdough starter and next week I have time
to build myself an incubator. I have a pet snake and also a small
heating pad (Cobra brand) that keeps a constant 100F temperature. So
I got a medium-sized nylon cooler and I'm going to put the heating pad
inside and see what the temperature is at various elevations. Once
I find the optimal 85F spot I will start my sourdough culture.

"Cousin It" > wrote in message =
ink.net...

> "Felix Karpfen" > wrote...

> > Since I am not the proud owner of a gas oven (with a pilot light) =
that
> > would hold sourdough starters at desired temperatures, I am finding =
it
> > a challenge to keep preferments with a pancake-batter consistency at
> > temperatures of c. 80=B0F for periods of up to 10 hours.
>=20
> I just got my Oregon Trail sourdough starter and next week I have time
> to build myself an incubator. I have a pet snake and also a small
> heating pad (Cobra brand) that keeps a constant 100F temperature. So
> I got a medium-sized nylon cooler and I'm going to put the heating pad
> inside and see what the temperature is at various elevations. Once
> I find the optimal 85F spot I will start my sourdough culture.

With you and Felix as pipers, we'll have the whole rat pack over the
edge into the sea in no time.

What does the snake do? -- can he be taught to stir?

> "Felix Karpfen" > wrote...
> > Since I am not the proud owner of a gas oven (with a pilot light)
that
> > would hold sourdough starters at desired temperatures, I am finding
it
> > a challenge to keep preferments with a pancake-batter consistency
at
> > temperatures of c. 80=B0F for periods of up to 10 hours.
IMO,
I do not see the point to be fastidious with temperature control when
handling natural sourdough starters.In fact there seems to be some
built in tolerance to minor temperature fluctuation.
In the artisan bakery that I am connected right now the starter
hydration ratio is 1 part liquid starter 1 part flour to 1.20 part
water and we just let the fluid starter ferment for up to 12 hours at
room temperature that ranges from 20-30degree C and after that we just
place the starter in the cold room for the rest of the fermenation
period or until used, in not more than 24 hours ( temperature of the
cold room is 4 -7degree C.The resulting Fermented starter temperature
when used is dough making is in the vicinity of 10 degree C.
The dough temperature out from the mixer is within 24-26 degree C.
The dough is bulk fermented for up to 4 hours beiore subsequent dough
manipulation or if not used immeidately , right after mixing the dough
bin is again placed in the cold room for 24 hours( for the next day
production schedule).
The bread comes out fine in all cases.
The most critical part is when the finished dough temperature goes up
to more than 28 degrees and is not controlled nor brought down that
the bread will come out poorly; squat appearing loaves, pale crust,
poor volume and more acidic tang in the palate and assesssed as not of
good eating quality.=20
Roy

> "Felix Karpfen" > wrote...
> > Since I am not the proud owner of a gas oven (with a pilot light)
that
> > would hold sourdough starters at desired temperatures, I am finding
it
> > a challenge to keep preferments with a pancake-batter consistency
at
> > temperatures of c. 80=B0F for periods of up to 10 hours.
IMO,
I do not see the point to be fastidious with temperature control when
handling natural sourdough starters.In fact there seems to be some
built in tolerance to minor temperature fluctuation.
In the artisan bakery that I am connected right now the starter
hydration ratio is 1 part liquid starter 1 part flour to 1.20 part
water and we just let the fluid starter ferment for up to 12 hours at
room temperature that ranges from 20-30degree C and after that we just
place the starter in the cold room for the rest of the fermenation
period or until used, in not more than 24 hours ( temperature of the
cold room is 4 -7degree C.The resulting Fermented starter temperature
when used is dough making is in the vicinity of 10 degree C.
The dough temperature out from the mixer is within 24-26 degree C.
The dough is bulk fermented for up to 4 hours beiore subsequent dough
manipulation or if not used immeidately , right after mixing the dough
bin is again placed in the cold room for 24 hours( for the next day
production schedule).
The bread comes out fine in all cases.
The most critical part is when the finished dough temperature goes up
to more than 28 degrees and is not controlled nor brought down that
the bread will come out poorly; squat appearing loaves, pale crust,
poor volume and more acidic tang in the palate and assesssed as not of
good eating quality.=20
Roy

On Mon, 21 Feb 2005 11:07:50 -0800, Roy wrote:
>
>> "Felix Karpfen" > wrote...

>> > Since I am not the proud owner of a gas oven (with a pilot light)
>> > that would hold sourdough starters at desired temperatures, I am
>> > finding it a challenge to keep preferments with a pancake-batter
>> > consistency at temperatures of c. 80°F for periods of up to 10
>> > hours.

> IMO,
>
SNIP

> The most critical part is when the finished dough temperature goes up
> to more than 28 degrees and is not controlled nor brought down that
> the bread will come out poorly; squat appearing loaves, pale crust,
> poor volume and more acidic tang in the palate and assesssed as not of
> good eating quality.

As is usually the case with replies from Roy, I find the supplied
detailed information both highly relevant and most helpful.

While I have real problems in holding the developing dough at 28-30°C
(80-83°F) and no higher, there are no problems in keeping it at room
temperatures till it is good and ready.

My sincere thanks for the advice.

Felix Karpfen

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Roy wrote:

>
>
> In the artisan bakery that I am connected right now the starter
> hydration ratio is 1 part liquid starter 1 part flour to 1.20 part
> water and we just let the fluid starter ferment for up to 12 hours at
> room temperature that ranges from 20-30degree C and after that we just
> place the starter in the cold room for the rest of the fermenation
> period or until used, in not more than 24 hours ( temperature of the
> cold room is 4 -7degree C.The resulting Fermented starter temperature
> when used is dough making is in the vicinity of 10 degree C.
> The dough temperature out from the mixer is within 24-26 degree C.
> The dough is bulk fermented for up to 4 hours beiore subsequent dough
> manipulation or if not used immeidately , right after mixing the dough
> bin is again placed in the cold room for 24 hours( for the next day
> production schedule).
> The bread comes out fine in all cases.
> The most critical part is when the finished dough temperature goes up
> to more than 28 degrees and is not controlled nor brought down that
> the bread will come out poorly; squat appearing loaves, pale crust,
> poor volume and more acidic tang in the palate and assesssed as not of
> good eating quality.
> Roy

Thanks Roy
Good information. My question my starter can peek in five hours would 12/24
hours be long before feeding again and become too acidic?

The best to you, Joe Umstead

Hi Joe,
Peaking of the starters is not given much importance in the bakery
I am currently connected. Just like with the bakers yeast raised
sponges in other part of the building of same establishment for their
normal doughs, they allow it to rise until it start to recede. And
when it does often times they just return the starter to the cold room
if they are stilll not producing any bread doughs at that time or there
was a change of worker shifts when it happened. or production was
postponed until several hours later.
Keep in mind that the * they are (using is pumpable )is fluid more
like of a waffle/pancake batter consistency.
Immediate refreshment when the starter starts to recede is done only
when there is large volume of that bread needed and they have to
maximize output by immediate refreshments so that they have enough
culture to use for the projected production output. for that period.
But its not the norm in that establishment to refresh the starter after
the peak period(10-12 hours. One old baker said its a waste of flour
and work time.; if the starter is still active why refresh it

Regarding the proper time to refresh...from what I saw
..I noticed that even if the starter is veiewed as riipe by its tendency
of receding from its maximum fermentation volume, the bakers just stir
the starter just to give it some sort of even dispersion of the
nutrients to give it some sort of slight aeration. It seems to
envigorate the critters. signficantly.Baking performance comparison
between the unstirred and the stirred starter seems to favor the latter
due to faster proofing time and the loaves are bold appearing( better
bread symmetry) and slightly better volume.
They have a also a machine that do the same thing every 8-12 hours in
the mechanized version of the process (has its own cooling jacket to
control the starter temperature)which they use in the peak periods of
the year..
Yes the starter do not rise to the same height but just bubbles and
form fine froths on the surface but is very active and can be used
for doughmaking with good results. The bakers do not refresh the
starter in the supposed expected basis such as starting at 8 hours-12
hours of fermentation, rather they just stir it and place the starter
bins in the cold room until used( about 12 hours .later).Therefore its
obvious that the refreshment time is only once daily.Or once every 24
hours.
Take note that this particular bakery do not add yeast in their
sourdough breads but use 100% really robust and vigorous levain. The
bulk dough fermentation at ambient is 2-4 hours and the proofing time
is at most 3-4 hours depending on the ratio of sourdough culture and
flour in the dough side preparation.
Although not all bakeries follow the same tecnique ,others still do the
8-12 hours refreshings in other bakery shops,, but presumably they are
using a different strain of sourdough culture.
In the same vein your starter is not the same as what others are using
so I cannot make a qualified statement that what is valid in the bakery
situation is identically suitable with your culture( or others) but
there is no harm in trying the technique<g>

Roy

"Roy" > wrote in message=20
ups.com...

> Peaking of the starters is not given much importance in the bakery ...

And anyway, as I understand it, the bakers are always standing
ready with their bakers' yeast.

For the home (amateur) baker, I have proposed attention to the=20
concept of exponential growth, where conditions are maintained so
that the number of microorganisms increases logarithmically with=20
respect to time represented linearly on the abscissa of a Cartesian
representation. Please see the diagram at=20
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...owthcurve2.GIF
which is constructed by iterating a segment of the curve shown at
bottom left, which is a portion of the well-known "growth" curve,=20
as described at
http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC10

By me, and by the more sophisticated amateur bakers as well, the=20
name of the game is to maintain exponential growth until just before=20
bake time.

The rationale I have proposed for that is shown in the ideograph at
bottom of my diagram: (a) the bacterial products accumulate or=20
(b) bacteria increase their numbers greatly because of the availability=20
of food consisting of the corpi of senescent starving yeast, and start=20
to really churn out their acidic, tasty products. Or both (a) and (b).

A common mistake is to attempt to increase flavor/tartness by taking
the sponge (represented as the 3rd refreshment) over the bend, that is,=20
past the transition phase. A kind of sourdough can be made that way,
but going past exponential growth stalls the process, and necessitates
repeating the lag and acceleration phases, or, for the professional
baker, necessitates adding bakers' yeast, or, most commonly, getting=20
used to the notion that sourdough loaves are sour bricks.

It may be of interest to note that the curve shown at
http://samartha.net/SD/SourdoughDefinition.html#SEC10 also
describes pretty well the growth of the human race on this planet.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

Dick , I have thought abuut the typical growth crurve for microbes, and
seeing such a unique procedure practiced in this particular bakery
defies the established standard and expectation , .With such a unique
starter culture makes me think that there is always an exception to the
rule.
I even asked their production manager( jokingly) if they are using a
sort of genetically modifed lactobacteria which he denied.
Look, its hard to find a sourdough bakery using 100% levain in the
preparation of natually fermented bread,which only refreshes their
culture once a dayand do not even add bakers yeast to accelerate
fermentation and proofing time. like what other bakeries are doing.
Previously they admitted that they used to do that hybrid technique
but not anymore with thier new culture...
In conclusion the suppoeed vaunted superiority of knowledge of amateur
and hobbyist sourdough bakers was shattered once more by this group
of bakery tradesmen who do not give much importance about theory of
bacterial growth <g>.

Roy

Roy wrote:

>Look, its hard to find a sourdough bakery using 100% levain in the
>preparation of natually fermented bread,which only refreshes their
>culture once a dayand do not even add bakers yeast to accelerate
>fermentation and proofing time. like what other bakeries are doing.
>Previously they admitted that they used to do that hybrid technique
>but not anymore with thier new culture...
>In conclusion the suppoeed vaunted superiority of knowledge of amateur
>and hobbyist sourdough bakers was shattered once more by this group
>of bakery tradesmen who do not give much importance about theory of
>bacterial growth <g>.
>
>
The odd thing here is that they are using, from what you said in an
earlier post, a pumpable starter. I know a number of bakeries that keep
their starter around 60% hydration, as opposed to the 100% common here.
It's more like a window putty than the starters we usually use. They
can get away with refreshing once a day with no problems, and the
starters are very active when put into use.

I've gone to keeping my master starter at 60% hydration, and it will
keep in the fridge for in excess of 5 months with no hooch formation,
and it still comes to life very quickly when used.

The other odd thing is that the German approach in smaller bakeries is
to feed their starter once a WEEK. And they use a pumpable starter
also. They seem to end each week with a fresh starter from a lab, feed
it up to the volume they will need for the next week, and let it work
over the weekend. Then they use what they need the next week, repeating
the cycle the next Friday. (This is based on information from Dr.
Ganzle in seminar notes from the Bread Baker's Guild of America.) And
those bakers don't use yeast to jazz up the sourdough, or sauerteich.

There's a lot of ways to use sourdough, levain, or sauerteich.

Mike

"Roy" > wrote in message =
oups.com...

> In conclusion the suppoeed vaunted superiority of knowledge of amateur
> and hobbyist sourdough bakers was shattered once more by this group
> of bakery tradesmen who do not give much importance about theory of
> bacterial growth <g>.

It is the same here, with Mrs. Adams. I explain these things carefully =
to
her, but she listens with closed ears. No doubt she will resume buying
her bread at the store (and liking it better to the extent that she pays =
more)
when I am finally extinguished.

"Roy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Dick , I have thought abuut the typical growth crurve for microbes, and
> seeing such a unique procedure practiced in this particular bakery
> defies the established standard and expectation , .With such a unique
> starter culture makes me think that there is always an exception to the
> rule.
> I even asked their production manager( jokingly) if they are using a
> sort of genetically modifed lactobacteria which he denied.
> Look, its hard to find a sourdough bakery using 100% levain in the
> preparation of natually fermented bread,which only refreshes their
> culture once a dayand do not even add bakers yeast to accelerate
> fermentation and proofing time. like what other bakeries are doing.
> Previously they admitted that they used to do that hybrid technique
> but not anymore with thier new culture...
> In conclusion the suppoeed vaunted superiority of knowledge of amateur
> and hobbyist sourdough bakers was shattered once more by this group
> of bakery tradesmen who do not give much importance about theory of
> bacterial growth <g>.
>
> Roy
>
Roy,
I have been lurking on this site for a least two years without many posts.
In fact I have read so much about SD that I think I can maybe build a loaf
but not with pictures. Do you know for a fact that the "baker tradesman"
isn't adding yeast or are you just going by what he said. There is a big
difference. Maybe he adds the yeast in the flour while it still in the bag
or comes in early an mixes some in? In my experiences commerical people will
cut every corner there is to make a buck. In fact that's why most of them
are in business is for the buck and don't give a damm about the product as
long as people buy it and they don't get sued. Or, stated another way ask
your self about these guys ethics Bill Gates or the Enron boys their big
tradesmen. Terry........ just a spoiled child of rich, abusive, uncaring
wine growers.

"RN" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ]

> Do you know for a fact that the "baker tradesman"
> isn't adding yeast ... Maybe he adds the yeast in the=20
> flour while it still in the bag or comes in early an mixes=20
> some in? ... people will cut every corner there is to=20
> make a buck ...

We all know that the "baker tradesman" is a shifty
character, but how about the bakebook writer who is
continually bombarding us with the Old Wives Tales
that cripple everyone's baking skills?=20

"RN" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ]

> Do you know for a fact that the "baker tradesman"
> isn't adding yeast ... Maybe he adds the yeast in the=20
> flour while it still in the bag or comes in early an mixes=20
> some in? ... people will cut every corner there is to=20
> make a buck ...

We all know that the "baker tradesman" is a shifty
character, but how about the bakebook writer who is
continually bombarding us with the Old Wives Tales
that cripple everyone's baking skills?=20

HA...HA...!
RN you are admitting you are a crook yourself!.... and you want to
pass that shadiness of your character to the those bakers that I
already know for some time.
Sorry, to disappoint you..... that bakery had a transparent baking
methodology that any authorized visitor can watch for himself from
start to finish.
If by being a skeptic will make you happy.....Go..on ... wallow in the
mud of your own skepticism!
Roy

Cripple everyones baking skills?....
Thats baloney Dickie....It is just you are like a horse wearing
blinkers and do not want to see sourdough baking from a bigger picture
nor accept any form of knowldedge contrary to your scant archives of
sourdough knowhow.!
What a pity.... You are already in the sunset of your life and you
still have that attitude....!
When you die ask your missus to pray that Satan have mercy of your
soul!
Roy

"Roy", in message =
oups.com...
said to me

> What a pity.... You are already in the sunset of your life ...

You know, Roy, you should not make disparaging comments=20
about peoples' age. Now, if a person were homosexual, black,
spastic, or something like that, it would be a different matter of
course.

> When you die ask your missus to pray that Satan have mercy=20
> of your soul!

Oh, my lord, Roy. Nobody is religious anymore.

--
DickA

P.S. Hey, Marcella, I am not really like that. Just kidding ol' Roy!

"Roy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> HA...HA...!
> RN you are admitting you are a crook yourself!.... and you want to
> pass that shadiness of your character to the those bakers that I
> already know for some time.
> Sorry, to disappoint you..... that bakery had a transparent baking
> methodology that any authorized visitor can watch for himself from
> start to finish.
> If by being a skeptic will make you happy.....Go..on ... wallow in the
> mud of your own skepticism!
> Roy

"RN" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Roy" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > HA...HA...!
> > RN you are admitting you are a crook yourself!.... and you want to
> > pass that shadiness of your character to the those bakers that I
> > already know for some time.
> > Sorry, to disappoint you..... that bakery had a transparent baking
> > methodology that any authorized visitor can watch for himself from
> > start to finish.
> > If by being a skeptic will make you happy.....Go..on ... wallow in the
> > mud of your own skepticism!
> > Roy

Roy, you are the one that made the statement that they have a "new culture"
that doesn't need added yeast but performs like an equal. And, your a man
who believes in science and if some amateur made that comment you would be
on them like a pack of dogs on a rabbit. Then, in your follow-up post you
made the comment "that bakery had a transparent baking methodology that any
authorized visitor can watch for himself from start to finish." Yes, before
they would give me authorization they most likely would have the dough,
flour or something already spiked with yeast before they would let me in.
Send us some samples of that "baker tradesman" special "new culture" and
just maybe Dick, Mrs. Adams, and myself can do a double blind study but of
course we would have to refresh a few times. We're a lot less judgmental
than you because we're just amateurs. I think I'll go back to lurking.
Terry........ just a spoiled child of rich, abusive, uncaring wine growers.

Ha....Ha..!
Eat your heart out RN....
You will never had that opportunity....
Supposing....... I ask the owner of that bakery for some samples as
some rank amateur bakers do not believe that such things that I posted
here can happen.... He will be have a bellyache,.. from laughter at
such skepticism...I might be might insulted (as well ) for
accomodating such petty request
I am certain ( knowing his character ) he will say....So what......Even
if the world does not believe that I have a recent unique technique
for making my sourdough bread which is virtually based on 100%
levain.....and employing no dodgy technics whatsoever( knowing his
bakers for a long time ).
It will not affect my business at all.
Let those guys go bonkers due to their skepticism.!

Carry on RN.....Have the pleasure of being doubtful........By
pondering on this issue ..... in the quest to understand the
mechanics of that particular bakery's sourdough baking style ;and
deeply meditating on it ( in a typical lotus postures<g> but with a
wine bottle in one hand and a wine glass on the other<g>)you will come
to self realization and enlightenment<g> and accept with humility your
limitations,,,,i. e., your ignorance...
And I wish you luck in your introspection....
And forget about the Adams ...or (Addams Family.?)... they are just
cartoon characters<g>.
Roy

"Roy" wrote in message
oups.com...
> Look, its hard to find a sourdough bakery using 100% levain in the
> preparation of natually fermented bread,which only refreshes their
> culture once a dayand do not even add bakers yeast to accelerate
> fermentation and proofing time.

I've worked for 2 bakeries, both of which used only sourdough starters for
raising their sourdough breads. Neither bakery spikes their sourdough breads
with yeast. One bakery had a simple system of refreshing the starter (kept
at the consistency of wet dough) once a day. It was kept in the cool room
and never had a problem raising dough.

The place I work for now keeps their starter in 2 forms -- a fresh chef,
which is stiff starter fermented from old dough (effectively being refreshed
twice a day). It's kept at room temp (though it's sometimes mixed very cold
if it's going to sit for a longer time) and is very active with a mild
flavor. The other starter is the old dough itself. It is kept in the fridge
and is used anywhere from 1-3 days after the dough was made. This starter
gives a much more acidic flavor. Dough made with this starter starts off
slow, but once it gets going it never fails to get a good rise -- even if
the starter is three days old. And that's without adding yeast.

Trevor

I doubt that he will entertain that...nor care about it Will He is
happy how his business is going as what he expected.
Indeed I was doubtful about their claim( that they just feed and
refresh their starter once a day) at first and had asked the respected
personalities of that bakery who know more about their stuff; and had
observed their methods caredully ,not only a few times..and I was
convinced of its reality... .
For me its a good experience to know of different ways in making
sourdough; (and to keep in mind)the established knowldedge and lore of
that area is not absolute but relative and continously evolving. .
There are always exception to the rule... I doubt if Dr. Woods and
Sugihara,Ganztle,Spicher etc... will believe on such technique as
well.... but may find some plausible explanation if they will dig
deeper in the microbiology and chemistry of sourdough; and rethink the
established model while doing further studies in that area. to
confirm if the technique is really scientifically reasonable.
Its reminds me of the history of Physics IIRC in the start of the 20th
century that there is nothing new to know more about in physics, it but
was shattered by the theory of Relativity. and quantum mechanics. And
its not the end of it ....
Currently there is much interest on string theory . .which was
predicted to have far reaching implications on the idea of physical
reality as explained in multiple dimensions( beyod three dimensional
space model we are familar with.
The morals here is always to keep an open mind, (that even on such
mundane things like sourdough breadmaking. ) and accept the fact tha we
still have much to learn about everything in this world.
Roy

That is another variation Trevor....
But

Roy wrote:

> Its reminds me of the history of Physics IIRC in the start of the 20th
> century that there is nothing new to know more about in physics, it but
> was shattered by the theory of Relativity. and quantum mechanics. And
> its not the end of it ....
> Currently there is much interest on string theory . .which was
> predicted to have far reaching implications on the idea of physical
> reality as explained in multiple dimensions( beyod three dimensional
> space model we are familar with.

actually 4 dimensions (3 of space and one of time)& More accurately,
super-string theory, combining all five theory's of string theory
(superstring theory)into one theory of everything (TOE) ie:
supersymmetry between all of the known forces (aka M-theory): gravity,
strong nuclear force, weak nuclear force, electromagnetism.

What I want to know in relation to QM: Does the fact that my SD turns
out different every time I make it, a result of the mulitverse
interference or is God just playing dice, after all?

> The morals here is always to keep an open mind, (that even on such
> mundane things like sourdough breadmaking. ) and accept the fact tha we
> still have much to learn about everything in this world.
> Roy
>

Roy, is there some relationship between SD and QM?

dan w wrote:
>
> ...What I want to know in relation to QM: Does the fact that my SD turns
> out different every time I make it, a result of the mulitverse
> interference or is God just playing dice, after all?
>
Well, perhaps you have ****ed off the Bread Faeries or some othe
class of Wee Folk and they are exacting their price on you. More
likely though, it is simply a matter of bad Karma in your
kitchen.

> ...is there some relationship between SD and QM?
>
Yes, of course there is, but since it is not observable or
quantifiable in terms of physics, we must use euphimistic
descriptors such as Wee Folk to describe the very real
results.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

"dan w" > wrote in message =
...

> What I want to know in relation to QM: Does the fact that my SD turns=20
> out different every time I make it, a result of the mulitverse=20
> interference or is God just playing dice, after all?

It may be a Heisenberg type of thing. Wasn't he was the one who said
"if you know where it is, you dunno what time it is", or something
like that. =20

What?

> Does the fact that my SD turns
>out different every time I make it, a result of the mulitverse
>interference or is God just playing dice, after all?

Hsssh.... DickA might hear you....he does not want religion to be part
of rec.food.sourdough discussion<g>
You better hear the sage advice of Charles Perry's Cat ,Ticker<g>. .IMO
can provide better insight than QM giants Paul Adrien Maurice
Dirac,Erwin Schrodinger,& Werner ,Heisenberg combined..
In addition you do not need to calculate the eigenfunction/
eigenvalues ......
Roy

Dick Adams wrote:
> "dan w" > wrote in message ...
>
>
>>What I want to know in relation to QM: Does the fact that my SD turns
>>out different every time I make it, a result of the mulitverse
>>interference or is God just playing dice, after all?
>
>
> It may be a Heisenberg type of thing. Wasn't he was the one who said
> "if you know where it is, you dunno what time it is", or something
> like that.
>
> What?
the more you know about one aspect of a particle, such as position, the
less you can know about it's other attribbutes, such as speed, or spin.
(uncertainty principle)

come to think of it, that also relates to my SD journey so far.

Dan w

Roy wrote:

>>Does the fact that my SD turns
>>out different every time I make it, a result of the mulitverse
>>interference or is God just playing dice, after all?
>
>
> Hsssh.... DickA might hear you....he does not want religion to be part
> of rec.food.sourdough discussion<g>
> You better hear the sage advice of Charles Perry's Cat ,Ticker<g>. .IMO
> can provide better insight than QM giants Paul Adrien Maurice
> Dirac,Erwin Schrodinger,& Werner ,Heisenberg combined..
> In addition you do not need to calculate the eigenfunction/
> eigenvalues ......
> Roy
>
quantum theory, there's something i can understand (sans the math), but
figuring out the bakers %, hydration %, exact grams of flour, salt, etc,
that is going to take a lot more time thx for the tip on Ticker. in
the future i will keep Einstein out of the ng <g>

Dan w

"dan w" > wrote in message=20
...

> quantum theory, there's something i can understand ...

You can't even understand how to make capital letters
with your keyboard, you dummy. It is real depressing
what is going on. God forgive me for contributing to it.

"Gavin" > wrote in message =
oups.com...

> ... DON'T add clorox to the water. My starter died.

Thanks for that, oh most wise one!

Dick Adams wrote:
> "dan w" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>>quantum theory, there's something i can understand ...
>
>
> You can't even understand how to make capital letters
> with your keyboard, you dummy. It is real depressing
> what is going on. God forgive me for contributing to it.
>
> "Gavin" > wrote in message oups.com...
>
>
>>... DON'T add clorox to the water. My starter died.
>
>
> Thanks for that, oh most wise one!
>
>
>
you know you have "arrived" when DickA takes a swipe. by the way dick,
shouldn't there be a space between Dick and A? and please don't bring
religion into this ng, some people don't like it

Dan w

"dan w" > wrote in message =
...

> ... by the way dick, shouldn't there be a space between Dick and A?=20

Oh, I see -- you're a clever little nOObie whippersnapper. You have=20
gleaned the difference between _Dick_, which is a proper nickname, and=20
_dick_, which is a penile reference. Or maybe your control of the caps=20
key is not entirely absolute as of just now, and I am giving you too =
much=20
credit.=20

> ... and please don't bring religion into this ng, some people don't =
like it ...

My religion and my hope is natural selection -- the unsurvivability of =
the=20
unfittest and the unendurability of the inappropriate. Alas, it is but =
a dream!

The answer to you question is -- probably, but not so much as the space
between your whippersnapper ears.

--
DickA

In article >,
says...
> What I want to know in relation to QM: Does the fact that my SD turns
> out different every time I make it, a result of the mulitverse
> interference or is God just playing dice, after all?
>
Stop peeking.

Shrodinger's cat is instructive. Shrodinger opined that there's a 50-50
chance that his cat is dead, but that isn't decided until you peek.
Similarly, there's a 50-50 chance the loaf is great, but like the
ephemeral feline, the die isn't cast until you look.

But you can fool the loaf into being great! Here's how and why it
works.

The loaf is neither great nor terrible until you look at it. Until that
time, it must maintain a 50-50 chance of turning out either way. But if
you don't look until it's done, you have tricked it! After all, it
can't "unrise", "unbrown" or "uncook itself". Therefore, if you don't
look, it will turn out great!

I'm surprised Shrodinger didn't think of this.

;-)

Rick

Java Man wrote:

> In article >,
> says...
>
>>What I want to know in relation to QM: Does the fact that my SD turns
>>out different every time I make it, a result of the mulitverse
>>interference or is God just playing dice, after all?
>>
>
> Stop peeking.
>
> Shrodinger's cat is instructive. Shrodinger opined that there's a 50-50
> chance that his cat is dead, but that isn't decided until you peek.
> Similarly, there's a 50-50 chance the loaf is great, but like the
> ephemeral feline, the die isn't cast until you look.
>
> But you can fool the loaf into being great! Here's how and why it
> works.
>
> The loaf is neither great nor terrible until you look at it. Until that
> time, it must maintain a 50-50 chance of turning out either way. But if
> you don't look until it's done, you have tricked it! After all, it
> can't "unrise", "unbrown" or "uncook itself". Therefore, if you don't
> look, it will turn out great!
>
> I'm surprised Shrodinger didn't think of this.
>
> ;-)
>
> Rick
great point. then there is the waveform collapse. like my bread,
observation (peeking) collapses the waveform. conclusion- don't look
until it is too late. thx for the help

ps- don't tell Ticker about the half dead cat.

Dan w

Dick Adams wrote:

> "dan w" > wrote in message ...
>
>
>>... by the way dick, shouldn't there be a space between Dick and A?
>
>
> Oh, I see -- you're a clever little nOObie whippersnapper. You have
> gleaned the difference between _Dick_, which is a proper nickname, and
> _dick_, which is a penile reference. Or maybe your control of the caps
> key is not entirely absolute as of just now, and I am giving you too much
> credit.
>
>
>>... and please don't bring religion into this ng, some people don't like it ...
>
>
> My religion and my hope is natural selection -- the unsurvivability of the
> unfittest and the unendurability of the inappropriate. Alas, it is but a dream!
>
> The answer to you question is -- probably, but not so much as the space
> between your whippersnapper ears.
>
> --
> DickA
if i'm the nOObie whippersnapper, does that make you the old codger? <g>
Merriam-Webster: "an often mildly eccentric and usually elderly fellow
<old codger>", or is it curmudgeon Merriam-Webster: "a crusty,
ill-tempered, and usually old man"

Dan w

"dan w" > wrote in message=20
...

> if i'm the nOObie whippersnapper, does that make you=20
> the old codger? <g> ... or is it curmudgeon Merriam-Webster:=20
> "a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man"

That is what's called a sillygism. (Its logical content is=20
totally nonapparent.)

By the way, whippersnapper, I see by =

that you have stirred Kenneth with your newbie pathos. =20
Would you kindly ask Kenneth why, if his pressure-cooker=20
trick is so good, did he install a 1400-LB steam-blowing =20
Bongard behemoth in Mrs. Sole's kitchen. (I've asked that=20
several times, but he just killfiles people who ask him serious=20
questions.)

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html