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| Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Home Mills
I have a question for those of you with home mills, do any of them permit
you to separate the flour? By that I mean; can I "dial-in" that I want "white flour", or is it always--by definition--"whole grain"? Also, is the difference between bread made with freshly milled flour really noticeable? Or is it more a matter of: "I have a my own flour mill next to my 6-digit precision scale...nah, ni, na, ni, nahnaaa?" As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from a health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat bread, but I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left coast, USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour for testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up with anything useful... TIA, Dusty -- Remove STORE to reply |
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On 2/23/05 2:05 PM, "Dusty" > wrote:
> I have a question for those of you with home mills, do any of them permit > you to separate the flour? By that I mean; can I "dial-in" that I want > "white flour", or is it always--by definition--"whole grain"? Dusty, That would be a nice unit indeed. About the only way you can "dial it" to white, or some version approaching white, is shake it through a sieve system. Sieves, and shakers if you want to get techy, can be found at Fisher Scientifics' web site. The sieves are not expensive. The shakers can be. I believe the site searches better using the keyword: screen. > Also, is the difference between bread made with freshly milled flour really > noticeable? Or is it more a matter of: "I have a my own flour mill next to > my 6-digit precision scale...nah, ni, na, ni, nahnaaa?" A good question. For me, it's not so much a flavor issue as a freshness issue. Everything I read says, aged flour gives better dough handling characteristics. But the germ oils oxidize quickly. So it becomes a tradeoff: extensible dough vs. potentially rancid oils. > As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern > technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from a > health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made > there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat bread, but > I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. Well, it is certainly an acquired taste. I like to cut the whole wheat with spelt which is why whenever a noobie wants a recipe to practice on I recommend Kenneth's venerable Poilane formulation. Lots of flavor, modest density. > As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left coast, > USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour for > testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up with > anything useful... > Can't help you there. But if you own a KitchenAid mixer, Ebay usually has a number of resellers carrying the grain mill attachment. It's usually $85. It works well and if you looking for health benefits, it does a fine job cracking grain for hot cereals. If you like fresh cornbread, it is indispensable. Will |
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On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:05:14 -0800, Dusty wrote:
[snip] > As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern > technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from > a health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made > there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat bread, > but I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. > > As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left coast, > USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour for > testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up with > anything useful... > > > TIA, > Dusty I just got a hand-mill (retsel). I haven't really tried it out yet except for a small test batch. It is a lot of work! But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in the store's coffee mill, and grind away! Be sure to let the first half pound or so go onto the floor, as it will be contaminated with coffee flavor. If anyone stares at you while you are doing this, just smile and say "Hi!" All kidding aside, how dense is your 100% WW bread? Maybe there is something wrong with your starter. (Or maybe you just like very airy bread.) Here is a picture of one of my 100% WW sourdough loaves: http://uploads.savefile.com/users/uploads/816274150.jpg It is a little WIDE, as you can see, but since then I have learned how to keep the loaves from spreading quite so much when they rise. And I could always use a bread pan, too, as has been suggested by some. --Mac |
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Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM:
> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go > to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, > and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in > the store's coffee mill, and grind away! I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. If someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone has been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very sick when they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my mother her own grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... Karen R. |
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On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:13:24 +0000, Karen wrote:
> Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM: >> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go >> to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, >> and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in >> the store's coffee mill, and grind away! > > I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. If > someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone has > been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very sick when > they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my mother her own > grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... > > Karen R. Karen, I'm very sorry. After all, with google and such, these posts do get archived for all to read for a long time. Sometimes I tend to forget that. On the plus side, coffee really is much better when it is made from freshly ground beans. So just to be clear, I was joking about grinding wheat (or anything but coffee) in the dedicated coffee mills at any store. And just in case anyone thinks it is a good idea, it isn't, because the wheat would undoubtedly taste AWFUL after going through a coffee grinder. What might be a good idea is to try to convince whole foods (or other stores) to provide a dedicated grain grinder. They already have juicers, coffee grinders, and even nut butter machines, so why not a grain mill? --Mac |
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Mac wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:13:24 +0000, Karen wrote: > > > >>Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM: >> >> >>>But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go >>>to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, >>>and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in >>>the store's coffee mill, and grind away! >>> >>> >>I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. If >>someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone has >>been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very sick when >>they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my mother her own >>grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... >> >> >> I'm happier when someone discusses religion around here than lunatic fringe dietary issues. Yes, there are people who have celiac/sprue, and it is a very real condition. However, since it typically takes years before someone with celiac/sprue develops their illness far enough to show symptoms, much less be diagnosed, I don't think that a small amount of wheat would be a problem, despite what the more militant members of the celiac/sprue community say. It's not an allergy. It's an intolerance that causes subtle, but significant digestive problems. A shot of wheat isn't likely to make them very sick. Of course, the vast majority of the people who have celiac/sprue are self-diagnosed, and probably don't have it any more than the majority of people who think they are hypo-glycemic actually have it. I have no idea why someone would willingly butcher their diet that much, in either case. Maybe they like the looks that they get from people when they announce, "I can't eat <wheat | gluten bearing grains | sugar>" mistaking the contempt in their fellow diners eyes for sympathy. (Yes, I have a great distaste for people who discuss what they don't like and/or can't eat at the dinner table. If it's an issue, ask the host or hostess before the meal. Far enough in advance that your host or hostess can accomodate you graciously or tell you to go to hell in private sparing you both embarassment. You don't have to discuss the violent trots you'll suffer if you eat whatever at the dinner table. It's rude.) My objection to Mac's humorously made suggestion was that it would waste grain, grain the merchant would have to pay for. And it would make both the flour, and subsequent coffee, taste pretty awful. >What might be a good idea is to try to convince whole foods (or other >stores) to provide a dedicated grain grinder. They already have juicers, >coffee grinders, and even nut butter machines, so why not a grain mill? > > It was my understanding that many Whole Foods Markets, and other stores, have grinders from Montanna Wheat as it is. However, there are still issues. Truthfully, there are reasons why millers typically discard 15% of the bran when they make whole wheat flour. It doesn't help the baker make better bread. In fact, it harms the handling characteristics of the flour. There was a discussion in the Bread Baker's Guild mailing list a while back about a miller who went from a stone grinding process to the micronizer process used in many inexpensive home mills. And the flour quality dropped appreciably. Enough so that the bakers stopped using his flour. I have owned a WhisperMill (which sounds like a jet taking off) and a NutriMill. Neither make flour that makes very good bread, unless you add stuff to it to make up for the deficiencies of the flour. Look at the recipes on the web sites that sell mills. All of them I've seen add significant quantities of wheat gluten to their breads. Without the gluten addition, you get bricks. They also add dough conditioners, which you really shouldn't need to make good bread. I DO like adding things other than flour, water, salt, and riser to bread. But to make it taste different. What's raisin bread without raisins? But I draw the line at adding these things to make the bread work. If the flour is good, you don't need to add milk powder, vitamin C, ginger, and other dough conditioners to make it work. Some breads call for milk, and that's OK. Some breads use ginger, and that's OK. But if you don't add these things and get bricks, either the recipe or the flour is bad, and the answer is not in wheat gluten, milk powder, etc. Either fix the recipe or get good flour. Mike Having played with them, my current feeling is, I prefer my KitchenAid grain mill, and that most of the time it will be used in the fairly coarse settings to produce accent grains, cracked wheat, cracked rye, and so on, not the bulk of the flour in the recipe. Mike |
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Mike Avery wrote:
> Mac wrote: > >> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:13:24 +0000, Karen wrote: >> >> >> >>> Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM: >>> >>> >>>> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go >>>> to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, >>>> and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in >>>> the store's coffee mill, and grind away! >>>> >>> >>> I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. >>> If someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone >>> has been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very >>> sick when they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my >>> mother her own grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... >>> >>> > > I'm happier when someone discusses religion around here than lunatic > fringe dietary issues. Yes, there are people who have celiac/sprue, and > it is a very real condition. However, since it typically takes years > before someone with celiac/sprue develops their illness far enough to > show symptoms, much less be diagnosed, I don't think that a small amount > of wheat would be a problem, despite what the more militant members of > the celiac/sprue community say. > It's not an allergy. It's an intolerance that causes subtle, but > significant digestive problems. A shot of wheat isn't likely to make > them very sick. > > Of course, the vast majority of the people who have celiac/sprue are > self-diagnosed, and probably don't have it any more than the majority of > people who think they are hypo-glycemic actually have it. I have no > idea why someone would willingly butcher their diet that much, in either > case. Maybe they like the looks that they get from people when they > announce, "I can't eat <wheat | gluten bearing grains | sugar>" > mistaking the contempt in their fellow diners eyes for sympathy. (Yes, > I have a great distaste for people who discuss what they don't like > and/or can't eat at the dinner table. If it's an issue, ask the host or > hostess before the meal. Far enough in advance that your host or > hostess can accomodate you graciously or tell you to go to hell in > private sparing you both embarassment. You don't have to discuss the > violent trots you'll suffer if you eat whatever at the dinner table. > It's rude.) > > My objection to Mac's humorously made suggestion was that it would waste > grain, grain the merchant would have to pay for. And it would make both > the flour, and subsequent coffee, taste pretty awful. > >> What might be a good idea is to try to convince whole foods (or other >> stores) to provide a dedicated grain grinder. They already have juicers, >> coffee grinders, and even nut butter machines, so why not a grain mill? >> >> > It was my understanding that many Whole Foods Markets, and other stores, > have grinders from Montanna Wheat as it is. > > However, there are still issues. > > Truthfully, there are reasons why millers typically discard 15% of the > bran when they make whole wheat flour. It doesn't help the baker make > better bread. In fact, it harms the handling characteristics of the > flour. There was a discussion in the Bread Baker's Guild mailing list a > while back about a miller who went from a stone grinding process to the > micronizer process used in many inexpensive home mills. And the flour > quality dropped appreciably. Enough so that the bakers stopped using > his flour. > > I have owned a WhisperMill (which sounds like a jet taking off) and a > NutriMill. Neither make flour that makes very good bread, unless you > add stuff to it to make up for the deficiencies of the flour. Look at > the recipes on the web sites that sell mills. All of them I've seen add > significant quantities of wheat gluten to their breads. Without the > gluten addition, you get bricks. They also add dough conditioners, > which you really shouldn't need to make good bread. I DO like adding > things other than flour, water, salt, and riser to bread. But to make > it taste different. What's raisin bread without raisins? > But I draw the line at adding these things to make the bread work. If > the flour is good, you don't need to add milk powder, vitamin C, ginger, > and other dough conditioners to make it work. Some breads call for > milk, and that's OK. Some breads use ginger, and that's OK. But if you > don't add these things and get bricks, either the recipe or the flour is > bad, and the answer is not in wheat gluten, milk powder, etc. Either > fix the recipe or get good flour. > > Mike > > > Having played with them, my current feeling is, I prefer my KitchenAid > grain mill, and that most of the time it will be used in the fairly > coarse settings to produce accent grains, cracked wheat, cracked rye, > and so on, not the bulk of the flour in the recipe. > > Mike > I don't have gluten sensitive enteropathy but do know something about it. The ingestion of gluten does permanent damage to the gut, so "some" now isn't a very smart idea. Diagnosis needs to be made properly and is easier than it used to be. Ellen |
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Mac wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:13:24 +0000, Karen wrote: > > > >>Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM: >> >> >>>But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go >>>to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, >>>and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in >>>the store's coffee mill, and grind away! >>> >>> >>I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. If >>someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone has >>been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very sick when >>they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my mother her own >>grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... >> >> >> I'm happier when someone discusses religion around here than lunatic fringe dietary issues. Yes, there are people who have celiac/sprue, and it is a very real condition. However, since it typically takes years before someone with celiac/sprue develops their illness far enough to show symptoms, much less be diagnosed, I don't think that a small amount of wheat would be a problem, despite what the more militant members of the celiac/sprue community say. It's not an allergy. It's an intolerance that causes subtle, but significant digestive problems. A shot of wheat isn't likely to make them very sick. Of course, the vast majority of the people who have celiac/sprue are self-diagnosed, and probably don't have it any more than the majority of people who think they are hypo-glycemic actually have it. I have no idea why someone would willingly butcher their diet that much, in either case. Maybe they like the looks that they get from people when they announce, "I can't eat <wheat | gluten bearing grains | sugar>" mistaking the contempt in their fellow diners eyes for sympathy. (Yes, I have a great distaste for people who discuss what they don't like and/or can't eat at the dinner table. If it's an issue, ask the host or hostess before the meal. Far enough in advance that your host or hostess can accomodate you graciously or tell you to go to hell in private sparing you both embarassment. You don't have to discuss the violent trots you'll suffer if you eat whatever at the dinner table. It's rude.) My objection to Mac's humorously made suggestion was that it would waste grain, grain the merchant would have to pay for. And it would make both the flour, and subsequent coffee, taste pretty awful. >What might be a good idea is to try to convince whole foods (or other >stores) to provide a dedicated grain grinder. They already have juicers, >coffee grinders, and even nut butter machines, so why not a grain mill? > > It was my understanding that many Whole Foods Markets, and other stores, have grinders from Montanna Wheat as it is. However, there are still issues. Truthfully, there are reasons why millers typically discard 15% of the bran when they make whole wheat flour. It doesn't help the baker make better bread. In fact, it harms the handling characteristics of the flour. There was a discussion in the Bread Baker's Guild mailing list a while back about a miller who went from a stone grinding process to the micronizer process used in many inexpensive home mills. And the flour quality dropped appreciably. Enough so that the bakers stopped using his flour. I have owned a WhisperMill (which sounds like a jet taking off) and a NutriMill. Neither make flour that makes very good bread, unless you add stuff to it to make up for the deficiencies of the flour. Look at the recipes on the web sites that sell mills. All of them I've seen add significant quantities of wheat gluten to their breads. Without the gluten addition, you get bricks. They also add dough conditioners, which you really shouldn't need to make good bread. I DO like adding things other than flour, water, salt, and riser to bread. But to make it taste different. What's raisin bread without raisins? But I draw the line at adding these things to make the bread work. If the flour is good, you don't need to add milk powder, vitamin C, ginger, and other dough conditioners to make it work. Some breads call for milk, and that's OK. Some breads use ginger, and that's OK. But if you don't add these things and get bricks, either the recipe or the flour is bad, and the answer is not in wheat gluten, milk powder, etc. Either fix the recipe or get good flour. Mike Having played with them, my current feeling is, I prefer my KitchenAid grain mill, and that most of the time it will be used in the fairly coarse settings to produce accent grains, cracked wheat, cracked rye, and so on, not the bulk of the flour in the recipe. Mike |
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On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 16:13:24 +0000, Karen wrote:
> Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM: >> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go >> to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, >> and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in >> the store's coffee mill, and grind away! > > I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. If > someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone has > been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very sick when > they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my mother her own > grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... > > Karen R. Karen, I'm very sorry. After all, with google and such, these posts do get archived for all to read for a long time. Sometimes I tend to forget that. On the plus side, coffee really is much better when it is made from freshly ground beans. So just to be clear, I was joking about grinding wheat (or anything but coffee) in the dedicated coffee mills at any store. And just in case anyone thinks it is a good idea, it isn't, because the wheat would undoubtedly taste AWFUL after going through a coffee grinder. What might be a good idea is to try to convince whole foods (or other stores) to provide a dedicated grain grinder. They already have juicers, coffee grinders, and even nut butter machines, so why not a grain mill? --Mac |
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Mac,
I finally made a loaf of french bread I am happy with (not sourdough yet) taste and texture wise. I have the same problem you have about the spreading. I was wondering how you solved the problem. Thanks. Vicki Mac wrote: > On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:05:14 -0800, Dusty wrote: > > [snip] > > > As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern > > technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from > > a health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made > > there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat bread, > > but I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. > > > > As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left coast, > > USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour for > > testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up with > > anything useful... > > > > > > TIA, > > Dusty > > I just got a hand-mill (retsel). I haven't really tried it out yet except > for a small test batch. It is a lot of work! > > But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go to > Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, and > bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in the > store's coffee mill, and grind away! Be sure to let the first half pound > or so go onto the floor, as it will be contaminated with coffee flavor. If > anyone stares at you while you are doing this, just smile and say "Hi!" > > All kidding aside, how dense is your 100% WW bread? Maybe there is > something wrong with your starter. (Or maybe you just like very airy bread.) > > Here is a picture of one of my 100% WW sourdough loaves: > > http://uploads.savefile.com/users/uploads/816274150.jpg > > It is a little WIDE, as you can see, but since then I have learned how to > keep the loaves from spreading quite so much when they rise. And I could > always use a bread pan, too, as has been suggested by some. > > --Mac |
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On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:38:54 -0800, victw wrote:
> Mac, > > I finally made a loaf of french bread I am happy with (not sourdough > yet) taste and texture wise. > > I have the same problem you have about the spreading. I was wondering > how you solved the problem. > > Thanks. > Vicki Well, I posted here a while back, and a lot of different ideas were put forward to solve the problem. I don't think I have it 100% beat, but I have seen some significant improvement. What I did is modify my kneading technique (I knead the bread by hand on a granite counter top) so that the skin of the dough touching the counter top gets tighter and tighter. This skin will eventually become the top of the loaf. The basic motion is to fold about 30% of the dough over, push down, lift the dough, rotate, fold 30 % again, etc. I make sure the dough doesn't stick to the counter by sprinkling just enough flour if necessary. I knead the same way for the first and second rise, but I suspect it is more important on the second kneading. When I am done kneading, I shape the dough into a ball where the side which was touching the counter during kneading becomes the top of the loaf. I hold the dough in both hands and gently coax it into a ball shape by pulling the surface tight and rotating. The bottom of the loaf may be just slightly untidy, but that is OK. Timing, as noted by others in this thread, is also important. The longer you let the dough sit, the more liquid it tends to become, in my experience. And if all else fails, you could always use a bread pan. ;-) Hope that helps! --Mac > Mac wrote: >> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:05:14 -0800, Dusty wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >> > As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern >> > technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue > from >> > a health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be > made >> > there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat > bread, >> > but I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. >> > >> > As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left > coast, >> > USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour > for >> > testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up > with >> > anything useful... >> > >> > >> > TIA, >> > Dusty >> >> I just got a hand-mill (retsel). I haven't really tried it out yet > except >> for a small test batch. It is a lot of work! >> >> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go > to >> Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, and >> bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in the >> store's coffee mill, and grind away! Be sure to let the first half > pound >> or so go onto the floor, as it will be contaminated with coffee > flavor. If >> anyone stares at you while you are doing this, just smile and say > "Hi!" >> >> All kidding aside, how dense is your 100% WW bread? Maybe there is >> something wrong with your starter. (Or maybe you just like very airy > bread.) >> >> Here is a picture of one of my 100% WW sourdough loaves: >> >> http://uploads.savefile.com/users/uploads/816274150.jpg >> >> It is a little WIDE, as you can see, but since then I have learned > how to >> keep the loaves from spreading quite so much when they rise. And I > could >> always use a bread pan, too, as has been suggested by some. >> >> --Mac |
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On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 09:38:54 -0800, victw wrote:
> Mac, > > I finally made a loaf of french bread I am happy with (not sourdough > yet) taste and texture wise. > > I have the same problem you have about the spreading. I was wondering > how you solved the problem. > > Thanks. > Vicki Well, I posted here a while back, and a lot of different ideas were put forward to solve the problem. I don't think I have it 100% beat, but I have seen some significant improvement. What I did is modify my kneading technique (I knead the bread by hand on a granite counter top) so that the skin of the dough touching the counter top gets tighter and tighter. This skin will eventually become the top of the loaf. The basic motion is to fold about 30% of the dough over, push down, lift the dough, rotate, fold 30 % again, etc. I make sure the dough doesn't stick to the counter by sprinkling just enough flour if necessary. I knead the same way for the first and second rise, but I suspect it is more important on the second kneading. When I am done kneading, I shape the dough into a ball where the side which was touching the counter during kneading becomes the top of the loaf. I hold the dough in both hands and gently coax it into a ball shape by pulling the surface tight and rotating. The bottom of the loaf may be just slightly untidy, but that is OK. Timing, as noted by others in this thread, is also important. The longer you let the dough sit, the more liquid it tends to become, in my experience. And if all else fails, you could always use a bread pan. ;-) Hope that helps! --Mac > Mac wrote: >> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 12:05:14 -0800, Dusty wrote: >> >> [snip] >> >> > As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern >> > technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue > from >> > a health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be > made >> > there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat > bread, >> > but I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. >> > >> > As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left > coast, >> > USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour > for >> > testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up > with >> > anything useful... >> > >> > >> > TIA, >> > Dusty >> >> I just got a hand-mill (retsel). I haven't really tried it out yet > except >> for a small test batch. It is a lot of work! >> >> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go > to >> Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, and >> bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in the >> store's coffee mill, and grind away! Be sure to let the first half > pound >> or so go onto the floor, as it will be contaminated with coffee > flavor. If >> anyone stares at you while you are doing this, just smile and say > "Hi!" >> >> All kidding aside, how dense is your 100% WW bread? Maybe there is >> something wrong with your starter. (Or maybe you just like very airy > bread.) >> >> Here is a picture of one of my 100% WW sourdough loaves: >> >> http://uploads.savefile.com/users/uploads/816274150.jpg >> >> It is a little WIDE, as you can see, but since then I have learned > how to >> keep the loaves from spreading quite so much when they rise. And I > could >> always use a bread pan, too, as has been suggested by some. >> >> --Mac |
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Mac wrote the following on 2/27/2005 12:54 AM:
> But I have a solution for you! If you want freshly milled wheat, go > to Whole Foods, take about 5 lbs of wheat berries from the bin area, > and bring them over to the coffee area. Then put the wheat berries in > the store's coffee mill, and grind away! I know you are joking about this, but I hope no one gets any ideas. If someone with celiac sprue grinds their coffee beens after someone has been using the grinder to grind wheat they will get very, very sick when they drink their coffee. In fact, I think I'll get my mother her own grinder just in case someone is tempted to try this... Karen R. |
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Hi Dusty; Check the Wheat Montana website for a retail location near
you. I notice 2 in northern California but they may be too far to drive unless you want to go on a short road trip. Their retail outlets will grind the grain for you in small (5 or 10 pound) quantities. Your alternative is to order directly from Wheat Montana and pay the shipping costs. http://www.sba.gov/mt/wheatmontana.html Dusty wrote: > I have a question for those of you with home mills, do any of them permit > you to separate the flour? By that I mean; can I "dial-in" that I want > "white flour", or is it always--by definition--"whole grain"? > > Also, is the difference between bread made with freshly milled flour really > noticeable? Or is it more a matter of: "I have a my own flour mill next to > my 6-digit precision scale...nah, ni, na, ni, nahnaaa?" > > As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern > technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from a > health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made > there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat bread, but > I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. > > As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left coast, > USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour for > testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up with > anything useful... > > > TIA, > Dusty -- ~)< Love & Peace Ed B. "I believe the world is beautiful and that poetry, like bread, is for everyone." -Roque Dalton "Like You" |
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Dusty wrote:
>I have a question for those of you with home mills, do any of them permit >you to separate the flour? By that I mean; can I "dial-in" that I want >"white flour", or is it always--by definition--"whole grain"? > >Also, is the difference between bread made with freshly milled flour really >noticeable? Or is it more a matter of: "I have a my own flour mill next to >my 6-digit precision scale...nah, ni, na, ni, nahnaaa?" > >As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern >technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from a >health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made >there...but I'm not sure if it's worth it. I like whole wheat bread, but >I'm not a fan of 100% WW--tends to be too dense for my liking. > >As an aside, does anybody know of someplace in the bay area (left coast, >USA) where I might be able to purchase some freshly milled flour for >testing, before I spring for a mill? I Googled but didn't come up with >anything useful... > > >TIA, >Dusty > > Check out some of the local bakeries such as "Harvest Mill", Panetta, etc and I am sure that they will sell you just about any kind of flour that you want. I get my wheat berries from a local bakery in a 40 lb bag and do my own milling. |
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>Also, is the difference between bread made with freshly milled flour
really >noticeable? If its in small quantities you may not notice it....but if you make a large number of bread there is a noticeable difference even if you are using natural sourdough starter as leavening agent( and free from any additives). >As most of you know, I eschew the use of most of today's modern >technological advances in my baking. But I'm looking at this issue from a >health and nutrition point of view. I think there's a gain to be made >there. With regards to flour milling: or grinding your own wheat as a whole, is not much difference by those stone ground flour mills who did the same thing.They use the same principle but in different scale and equipment. I think what concerns you is the treatment of flour with additives in order to improve its colour and baking performance and that is understandable. But if the flour is sold as untreated and freshly milled how does it differ in wholesomeness as the home milled one? Regarding the separation of white flour from the rest of the milled grain I have not seen yet a home equipment that is of equivalent performance as the small scale / pilot plant scale laboratory flour mill such as the one made by Buhler that I used to 'play' with( previously some 20 years back) in the flour mills quality control / baking laboratory. I can grind 10 kg of wheat (straight run and the flour yield ratio( extraction rate) approximates the production scale equipment by being able to produce 7.0-8.0 kg of white flour out of that quantity of wheat . The baking performance and quality is similar as the production scale product made at the same flour extraction rate and time Roy |
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>Dusty BTW, Dusty I almost forgot about your original question which you posted above. And I try to explain how its done in commercial practice..and hoping you have an elementary idea how you can adapt the principle with your household grinder. >I have a question for those of you with home mills, do any of them permit >you to separate the flour? By that I mean; can I "dial-in" that I want >"white flour", or is it always--by definition--"whole grain"? In actual flour milling ; whether in laboratory pilot plant scale or production scale. If we had to mill for white flour we had to ensure that the outer coat of wheat is toughened by adding sufficient water to reach a grain moisture of around 15%. This value can be determined by getting first the initial moisture of the grain and then from there calculating the amount of water needed to be added to reach the target moisture before the grain is subjected to milling.The water is added and allowed to soak for at least 24 hours before its transported to the milling rolls. A dry wheat that has a moisture of 13 % or less will tend to ground the endosperm and the fibrous branny matter into powder and will be difficult to segregate the white flour from the offal Grinding wheat with roller mill is different from stone grinding with specialist mills for such flours. I think the latter the milling principle is just similar to home mills, just reducing the grain to fine particle size..I am much more familiar with the roller type mills than the stone ground ones. Having watched the mill operators run the production scale milling for some time I am familiar how the wheat is gradually ground and made into the flour we see in bags and bulk transport.. But not before I told them what to expect from the yield and what is the expected wheat grain moisture( from that particular wheat have to be maintained) to get the maximum yield from a grain stock in the silo. In commercial grinding for white flour the grinding rolls are corrugated at different level. It is the same thing with the Buhler experimental flour mill I used previously.The grinding rolls run with a speed differential to ensure that once the grain is broken the husk is actually scraped off from the endosperm.That occurs in the so called break rolls. BTW the equipment I mentioned has a series of breaking rolls for breaking and flaking the wheat kernel and the reduction rolls which pulverize the endosperm granules or semolina into flour.As the wheat particles are subjected to series of grinding and sifiting the rolls surface corrugation becomes finer that its literally a smooth roll at the end of the reduction process. So the bran comes out from the sifter as flakes( together with the wheat germ) not in powder form by being toughened with water as I mentioned in the tempering process. I do not see such sort of abrading or scratching effect on the home grinder which is more about crushing the grain into fine particle size. So whether you had the rotary sifter that Will has mentioned , the question is would it be able to separate the flour from the chaff effectively? In addition applying tempering( or the adjusting of grain moisture before milling) would be too complex thing to do with the hobbyist miller. As you do not have the moisture measuring equipment that commercial flour mills have..Nor understand the math involved in its computation. Therefore the likely method is just to sift the broken kernels each time its passed to the grinder to separate the flour from the coarser particles successively after each grinding step. The average yield of white flour from a quantity of wheat is 70% which varies with the quality of wheat. Soft wheat tends to have lesser yield of white flour than stronger wheat. Therefore range of white flour yield will then be from 60-80% depending on wheat quality and kernel size. In addition Bigger kernels tends to yield more white flour than smaller kernels Roy |
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