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| Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
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Ovens for proofing and bread baking?
after a few years of baking all our breads at home, and now getting
into sourdough breads I've come to realize that standard ovens are poorly equiped for such activity. We're about to embark on a major remodel of our home and one of my presents to myself is going to be an oven specifically for bread. Unfortunately it seems that most ovens in this category are solely professional. It's really difficult finding one under 20K :/ This is definitely out of my price range in several orders of magnitude. I have come across two oven which seem to fit but I'm curious as to whether any of you other home-bakers have any suggestions. The model I really want is made by Gaggenau but it's still pretty costly. It's a positive pressure steam and convection oven with misting capabilities. It definitely looks like the ticket. One of the features it has that I haven't found on any other residential level oven (which there are only two others) is that it has temperature settings as low as 70 degrees which enabled it to be used as a proofing oven. at 70 degrees you can also control the humidity from about 50% to 100%, which seems like it could really do well as a starter activator and proofing oven. The unit is still pretty costly so I'm wondering if anyone out there has found anything they prefer. the gaggenau model is the ED220 and you can see it at www.gaggenau.com -Scott |
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On 26 Feb 2005 23:30:05 -0800,
" > wrote: <>> OVEN SNIP <<> > >The unit is still pretty costly so I'm wondering if anyone out there >has found anything they prefer. > >the gaggenau model is the ED220 and you can see it at www.gaggenau.com > >-Scott Hi Scott, I have a pro oven in our home (and love it), but to answer your question someone would have to have used the Gaggenau and also something they prefer. I suspect that finding such a person would be tough. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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"Kenneth" >=20 wrote in message ... > I have a pro oven in our home (and love it) ... But what is it good for Kenneth? When are you going to show us some of your loaves? Can you make better looking loaves that Samartha, for=20 instance, shows at http://samartha.net/SD/ ? (Or is it true, as I suspect, that Mrs. Sole will not let you use it on account of the excessive heat and humidity?) -- DickA |
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"Kenneth" >=20 wrote in message ... > I have a pro oven in our home (and love it) ... But what is it good for Kenneth? When are you going to show us some of your loaves? Can you make better looking loaves that Samartha, for=20 instance, shows at http://samartha.net/SD/ ? (Or is it true, as I suspect, that Mrs. Sole will not let you use it on account of the excessive heat and humidity?) -- DickA |
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> wrote in message
oups.com... > The model I really want is made by Gaggenau but it's still pretty > costly. It's a positive pressure steam and convection oven with > misting capabilities. It definitely looks like the ticket..... I had the opportunity to view the Gaggenau ED220 in person at a major appliance distributor nearby (Boston). The first thing that caught my attention was the size of the oven cavity. It was very small by North American standards (just under one and a half cubic feet). Just large enough for a single boule. My conclusion... nice idea, but impractical for my bread baking purposes. - Steve Brandt |
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The Wolf and the Viking are top on our list of ranges, along with an
Aga. We've been working with a kitchen designer on this, but I wasn't aware the wolf would actually work below the 150 mark on the dials. I had just assumed (of course you know what that makes me  ) that 150being the lowest mark on the oven meant that it was the lowest setting. I also did manage to finally see the Gaggenau and yes, it's much too small for anything I do. The Wolf and Aga ranges are nice, but I think we're leaning more towards a cooktop and using a seperate set of double ovens mounted in the cabinets away from the cooking island. Oh well -- I wish to hell someone made some affordable steam/misting ovens that worked -Scott |
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" wrote: > > Oh well -- I wish to hell someone made some affordable steam/misting > ovens that worked > A while ago, a poster of some knowledge wrote of simulating a brick oven with an electric wall mount unit. He used a kiln shelf or home made refractory cement slab for thermal mass and blocked the oven vent to retain steam given off by the bread. IIRC he claimed it was better than a Cloche. At least you could bake a batard in it. With a Cloche you are limited to one boule at a time. Well, two if you have a double oven and two Cloche. Ovens that inject steam are just tring to simulate the baking environment of a brick or earthen oven where the steam is retained from the baked goods because of limited venting. Mostly those that have them, swear by them. Those that don't have varied opinions. I can tell you that it is just like most everything else. In your quest for perfect anything, the last 10 percent will cost you 90 percent of the total time, money and effort and you will still miss the mark. Almost always, only your dog, cat, and humans with trained tasters will be able to tell the difference. The dog doesn't care. 95 to 98 percent of the humans don't care. How much are you will to spend to please yourself and your cat? Regards, Charles -- Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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In article .com>,
says... > after a few years of baking all our breads at home, and now getting > into sourdough breads I've come to realize that standard ovens are > poorly equiped for such activity. > > We're about to embark on a major remodel of our home and one of my > presents to myself is going to be an oven specifically for bread. > > Unfortunately it seems that most ovens in this category are solely > professional. It's really difficult finding one under 20K :/ This is > definitely out of my price range in several orders of magnitude. > > I have come across two oven which seem to fit but I'm curious as to > whether any of you other home-bakers have any suggestions. > > The model I really want is made by Gaggenau but it's still pretty > costly. It's a positive pressure steam and convection oven with > misting capabilities. It definitely looks like the ticket. One of the > features it has that I haven't found on any other residential level > oven (which there are only two others) is that it has temperature > settings as low as 70 degrees which enabled it to be used as a proofing > oven. at 70 degrees you can also control the humidity from about 50% > to 100%, which seems like it could really do well as a starter > activator and proofing oven. > > The unit is still pretty costly so I'm wondering if anyone out there > has found anything they prefer. > > the gaggenau model is the ED220 and you can see it at www.gaggenau.com > We were enthused about the Gaggenau until we saw how small it is. We ended up with a Miele, which can set and hold a proof temperature in 10F increments. I usually use 80F. Checking with a thermometer shows that the display in the Miele is very accurate, and it holds the proof temperature quite well. My only complaints are that it doesn't allow settings in 1 degree increments, and it doesn't have steam!!! Maybe someone should invent a small device that moderates humidity in an oven? :-) Rick |
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"Charles Perry" > wrote in message = ... > [ ... ] > In your quest for perfect anything, the last 10 percent will=20 > cost you 90 percent of the total time, money and effort=20 > and you will still miss the mark. That is exactly why the frugal, among us, stop at 10%, sometimes even less. > How much are you will to spend to please yourself and=20 > your cat? Obstinate cat refuses to consider eating bread. (Nevertheless is unaware of being a carnivore. Well, we quickly dispose of the packages bearing the ingredient lists.) What exactly is meant by _proofing_? To prove that your dough is OK? OK for what? --=20 Dick Adams (Sourdough minimalist) <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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> > " wrote: > > > > Oh well -- I wish to hell someone made some affordable steam/misting > > ovens that worked > > I forgot to mention the Hearthkit. It is a ceramic oven insert that claims to mimic a stone oven. If it works, a Hearthkit in a GE is a lot cheaper than a Wolf. I am a little leary of the thing because of all the bread cook book authors that seemingly endorse the contraption. However, I am still curious, as long as I could satisfy the curiosity with somebody elses $200. Maybe someone could buy one and report back the performance. The frugal folk would appreciate it. Regards Charles Charles Perry Reply to: ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** |
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On 2/28/05 2:56 PM, "Charles Perry" > wrote:
> I forgot to mention the Hearthkit. It is a ceramic oven insert > that claims to mimic a stone oven. If it works, a Hearthkit in a > GE is a lot cheaper than a Wolf. I am a little leary of the thing > because of all the bread cook book authors that seemingly endorse > the contraption. However, I am still curious, as long as I could > satisfy the curiosity with somebody elses $200. Maybe someone > could buy one and report back the performance. The frugal folk > would appreciate it. While we're calling for testers. The fibrement people (link below) say that 2 of their stones, placed top and bottom of oven, work better than a Hearthkit. A lot less money too. http://www.bakingstone.com/ Will |
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On 2/28/05 2:56 PM, "Charles Perry" > wrote:
> I forgot to mention the Hearthkit. It is a ceramic oven insert > that claims to mimic a stone oven. If it works, a Hearthkit in a > GE is a lot cheaper than a Wolf. I am a little leary of the thing > because of all the bread cook book authors that seemingly endorse > the contraption. However, I am still curious, as long as I could > satisfy the curiosity with somebody elses $200. Maybe someone > could buy one and report back the performance. The frugal folk > would appreciate it. While we're calling for testers. The fibrement people (link below) say that 2 of their stones, placed top and bottom of oven, work better than a Hearthkit. A lot less money too. http://www.bakingstone.com/ Will |
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 20:56:39 GMT, Charles Perry
> wrote: > > > >> >> " wrote: >> > >> > Oh well -- I wish to hell someone made some affordable steam/misting >> > ovens that worked >> > >I forgot to mention the Hearthkit. It is a ceramic oven insert >that claims to mimic a stone oven. If it works, a Hearthkit in a >GE is a lot cheaper than a Wolf. I am a little leary of the thing >because of all the bread cook book authors that seemingly endorse >the contraption. However, I am still curious, as long as I could >satisfy the curiosity with somebody elses $200. Maybe someone >could buy one and report back the performance. The frugal folk >would appreciate it. > >Regards > >Charles >Charles Perry >Reply to: > >** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand ** Hi Charles, I am not certain that we are talking about the same brand, but, if so, here's a (much) less costly route: Just buy a bunch of firebricks. Stand them up in an arc that allows for a loaf to be put in the center. That provides the heated mass that we seek, costs only a few bucks, and can easily be removed at any time. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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I'm using fibrament and am very happy with it. It's a full 3/4 inch and is
big enough to hold two good-size free-formed loafs. Heat I find is very even. Al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will" > To: "Rec.Food.Sourdough" > Sent: Monday, February 28, 2005 4:05 PM Subject: Ovens for proofing and bread baking? > On 2/28/05 2:56 PM, "Charles Perry" > wrote: > > > I forgot to mention the Hearthkit. It is a ceramic oven insert > > that claims to mimic a stone oven. If it works, a Hearthkit in a > > GE is a lot cheaper than a Wolf. I am a little leary of the thing > > because of all the bread cook book authors that seemingly endorse > > the contraption. However, I am still curious, as long as I could > > satisfy the curiosity with somebody elses $200. Maybe someone > > could buy one and report back the performance. The frugal folk > > would appreciate it. > > While we're calling for testers. The fibrement people (link below) say that > 2 of their stones, placed top and bottom of oven, work better than a > Hearthkit. A lot less money too. > > http://www.bakingstone.com/ > > Will > > _______________________________________________ > rec.food.sourdough mailing list > > http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough |
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Charles Perry wrote:
> I forgot to mention the Hearthkit. It is a ceramic oven insert > that claims to mimic a stone oven. If it works, a Hearthkit in a > GE is a lot cheaper than a Wolf. I am a little leary of the thing > because of all the bread cook book authors that seemingly endorse > the contraption. However, I am still curious, as long as I could > satisfy the curiosity with somebody elses $200. Maybe someone > could buy one and report back the performance. The frugal folk > would appreciate it. There's at least one at Amazon's Used market, for $115... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...531778-1816749 I'm puzzled though, since the Hearthkit is an open "try" design, it really acnnot do anything to trap and maintain humidity, which is where I thought this thread was going. Dave |
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005, Charles Perry wrote:
> I forgot to mention the Hearthkit. It is a ceramic oven insert > that claims to mimic a stone oven. If it works, a Hearthkit in a > GE is a lot cheaper than a Wolf. I am a little leary of the thing > because of all the bread cook book authors that seemingly endorse > the contraption. However, I am still curious, as long as I could > satisfy the curiosity with somebody elses $200. Maybe someone > could buy one and report back the performance. The frugal folk > would appreciate it. There's at least one at Amazon's Used market, for $115... http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...531778-1816749 I'm puzzled though, since the Hearthkit is an open "try" design, it really acnnot do anything to trap and maintain humidity, which is where I thought this thread was going. Dave |
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In article >,
Kenneth > wrote: > > Just buy a bunch of firebricks. Stand them up in an arc that > allows for a loaf to be put in the center. I have always wanted to try this, where are firebricks commonly sold. When I looked at Home Depot and Lowes they did not seem to carry them. What is a good source? Do you have a rough idea how long pre heating time will be with this increased mass? > > That provides the heated mass that we seek, costs only a few > bucks, and can easily be removed at any time. > The folks at Fibrament (maker of substantial baking stones and supplier of commercial hearths) seem to think the heat transfer rate is important. and claim an optimised rate in their FAQ at: http://www.bakingstone.com/faq.php "For baking stones to work properly the heat must be conducted evenly. Some baking stones conduct heat too quickly while other stones conduct heat too slowly. FibraMent's heat transfer rate is 4.63 Btu.in/hr.sqft.?F tested to ASTM Standard C177-95. This is the ideal heat transfer rate." I have not yet sprung for a fibrament, but have been tempted. I have a stone that is probably similar bought from a restaurant supply store but is thinner than the fibrament. This synthetic stone does seem to behave differently than a 3/4" natural stone (get a better spring despite the decreased mass). Roland |
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Rick, I also got a chance to look at the Miele this weekend also and in
my opion it's smaller than the Gaggenau ED210 although I'll need to go and double check all the literature. One of the issues I see with the Miele is that it's a steam only oven whereas the the Gaggenau is steam+conventional+convection giving you the best of all three worlds. The Gaggenau hooks directly up to a water source whereas the Miele requires you to fill a insertable water container. The Gaggenau also mists, the Miele doesn't. of course there's about a 100% difference in price as well :/ |
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On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:21:37 -0600, Joe Doe
> wrote: >In article >, > Kenneth > wrote: > >> >> Just buy a bunch of firebricks. Stand them up in an arc that >> allows for a loaf to be put in the center. > >I have always wanted to try this, where are firebricks commonly sold. >When I looked at Home Depot and Lowes they did not seem to carry them. >What is a good source? Do you have a rough idea how long pre heating >time will be with this increased mass? Hello again, I don't know the names of these places, but they typically sell bricks and stone etc. that is used for construction. You might have luck looking for "bricks" in the yellow pages. It is also likely that a sales person at a place like Home Depot could steer you in the right direction. The bricks you want are the sort used to build fireplaces. Regarding time to heat: That would depend on your oven. I used to have a Garland commercial oven. I also had a small, circular, contact thermometer of the sort used to measure the temperature of woodstoves. With that gadget I could tell the temp of the bricks. With my oven, it took about 70 minutes to get 'em up to 600F. (Also note that it is easy to heat the bricks well above the nominal maximum of the oven. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
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cripes.. I didn't read the fine print. I thought you were looking at
the meile steam based oven when I replied. Also, I think that most ovens are not tolerant to high amounts of steam and humidity. My current oven, a GE convection unit, probably has mechanics that are hidden from view in the circulation system that would be prone to rust at really high humidity levels. Even my non-convection gas oven has slits in the top for venting and a cast iron (I think) burner area. I'm not sure really high humidity would be good for these components. -Scott |
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>
>The things I like about the Wolf: >1) The convection oven >2) The high setting on the burners really puts out some heat. >3) The simmer setting on the burners is low enough to cook rice, even in a >small pan. Very few burners have this kind of range. >4) The automatic ignition has a very energetic spark, and works pretty >well. > >The things I don't like >1) There are no programmable cycles for cooking. A couple of times I would >have liked to leave a loaf in the oven at bedtime, and have the oven start >up automatically a few hours later. Then again, this oven probably doesn't >have a computer or electronics at all, and that might be a benefit in >the long run. ;-) >2) There is a strange phenomenon where the burners won't stay >lit, except on high, for a couple of minutes during the oven pre-heat >phase. The repair guy told me there is nothing he can do about it. I don't >know if all Wolfs do this or not. The burners work fine once the oven gets >hot, and of course when the oven is off. > >That's about it. If you get a separate range and oven you won't have to >worry about the oven/burner interaction. > >--Mac > Belatedly: I have a Smeg. It's Italian and has convection or conventional settings. It's huge, can bake 2 boules easily, or four 2 lb tins. I've been very happy with it. I tried baking stones etc but couldn't detect a difference in anything but pizza. I create steam by spraying the oven with water just as I put the bread in. Agas are RUBBISH for bread. They don't get hot enough. IMHO, the difference between my amateur efforts and those of Kayser et al is shaping and technique, not oven magic. -- Jane Lumley |
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"Charles Perry" > wrote in message = ... > ... Ovens that inject steam are just trying to simulate the baking > environment of a brick or earthen oven where the steam is > retained from the baked goods because of limited venting. A bit more than that, I think. If there is enough of it, of adequate quality, a thick layer of gelled dough is created, and the edges of the slashes can be seen to melt so they become round. Subsequent baking can then yield a very substantial chewiness at the surface. I was able to approach that result by means of the "frying pan trick",=20 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DFBMv8.33991$Rw2.2561012@bgtnsc05-n= ews.ops.worldnet.att.net but the procedure for that is awkward, to say the least. With regard to the "pressure cooker trick", for which Kenneth is the primary proponent, I have proposed that Kenneth compare the=20 results obtainable with (1) his ordinary kitchen-range oven, (2) the=20 same humidified with the plumbed pressure cooker, and (3) his Bongard with steam, and publish those results as a web page with photos, or at least an r.f.s. post with photo links. (As is clear by now, Kenneth is not able, for unknown reasons,=20 to rise to that challenge.) As far a cloches are concerned, it seems to me that they should be hot to start, which, if true, would entail some risk, well, in my hands, anyway. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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"Charles Perry" > wrote in message = ... > ... Ovens that inject steam are just trying to simulate the baking > environment of a brick or earthen oven where the steam is > retained from the baked goods because of limited venting. A bit more than that, I think. If there is enough of it, of adequate quality, a thick layer of gelled dough is created, and the edges of the slashes can be seen to melt so they become round. Subsequent baking can then yield a very substantial chewiness at the surface. I was able to approach that result by means of the "frying pan trick",=20 http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3DFBMv8.33991$Rw2.2561012@bgtnsc05-n= ews.ops.worldnet.att.net but the procedure for that is awkward, to say the least. With regard to the "pressure cooker trick", for which Kenneth is the primary proponent, I have proposed that Kenneth compare the=20 results obtainable with (1) his ordinary kitchen-range oven, (2) the=20 same humidified with the plumbed pressure cooker, and (3) his Bongard with steam, and publish those results as a web page with photos, or at least an r.f.s. post with photo links. (As is clear by now, Kenneth is not able, for unknown reasons,=20 to rise to that challenge.) As far a cloches are concerned, it seems to me that they should be hot to start, which, if true, would entail some risk, well, in my hands, anyway. --=20 Dick Adams <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at=20 http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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Jane Lumley wrote:
> IMHO, the difference between my amateur efforts and those of Kayser et > >al is shaping and technique, not oven magic. > > I think Reinhard suggested that the oven is responsible for about 10% of a bread's quality. Clearly, an oven can be destructive (burned bread), but beyond that, the differences may not be as extreme as some would like to think. Mike |
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Jane Lumley wrote:
> IMHO, the difference between my amateur efforts and those of Kayser et > >al is shaping and technique, not oven magic. > > I think Reinhard suggested that the oven is responsible for about 10% of a bread's quality. Clearly, an oven can be destructive (burned bread), but beyond that, the differences may not be as extreme as some would like to think. Mike |
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Jane Lumley wrote:
> IMHO, the difference between my amateur efforts and those of Kayser et > >al is shaping and technique, not oven magic. > > I think Reinhard suggested that the oven is responsible for about 10% of a bread's quality. Clearly, an oven can be destructive (burned bread), but beyond that, the differences may not be as extreme as some would like to think. Mike |
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Ovens for proofing and bread baking?
"Dick Adams" > wrote in message ... .. . . > What exactly is meant by _proofing_? To prove that your > dough is OK? OK for what? I don't have the exact dictionary definition or the etymology on the verb "to proof" or anything like that, but in my limited experience (one semester at a culinary academy) at the bake shop at my school, I have acquired the understanding that "to proof" means to let the dough (usually already in the final shape, like loaves or rolls, or whatever) rest and rise in a warm, humid area until the dough has risen sufficiently, often doubled. At school, we have a "proofing box", or more casually known as "the proofer", which we keep at 80 degrees Fahrenheit and at about 80% humidity. It's the about right size to stand a full-size speed rack inside to hang our full-size baking sheets on, but now that I think about it, I think the hangers for the baking sheets are actually mounted onto the wall of the proofer and a speed rack doesn't actually go in there, but it's about that size. |
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Ovens for proofing and bread baking?
"NewCulStudent" > wrote in message news:E9%ef.62$Mw1.50@trnddc01... > > "Dick Adams" > wrote in message > ... > . . . > > What exactly is meant by _proofing_? To prove that your > > dough is OK? OK for what? > > ... I have acquired the understanding that "to proof" means to let the dough > (usually already in the final shape, like loaves or rolls, or whatever) rest > and rise in a warm, humid area until the dough has risen sufficiently, > often doubled. I would like to incubate the dough to facilitate the fermentation which motivates it to rise. Though it makes little sense to incubate at refrigerator temperatures, as is sometimes recommended, it is quite possible to do it at room temperature. In any case, the dough must be kept from drying out. The dough may rise five-fold, volume-wise, before baking, if it is properly made, and started to bake in an initially cold oven. > At school, we have a "proofing box", or more casually known as > "the proofer"... At home I have a couple of home-made incubators casually known as incubators. The tops, in both cases, are translucent clothing-storage-box bottoms -- they can, and do, frequently serve as covers for room-temperature incubations. One is big enough to cover a half-size baking tray. Water reservoirs, such as a pan of water, or saturated rags/cellulose sponges, are placed in the incubators or under the covers to boost humidity during incubation (rising). What is proofed is that it is possible to bake without the jargon, and without the kinds of constantly-hot ovens used in bakeries, which can blow up any lump of dough like popcorn in spite of its being inadequately risen. Also without the energy waste which otherwise would be invested in oven preheating. -- Dicky (Dick Adams Sourdough minimalist) <firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com ___________________ Sourdough FAQ guide at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html |
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Ovens for proofing and bread baking?
NewCulStudent wrote:
>.... but now that I think about it, I think the > hangers for the baking sheets are actually mounted onto the wall of the > proofer and a speed rack doesn't actually go in there, but it's about that > size. > Actually they come both ways. The portable commercial proof boxes are just a little bigger than a standard rack so that they can hold the heater elements and the water container. The fixed proofers that I have seen were usually set up in banks like a row of refrigerators and the doors opened wide so you could just wheel a standard rack straight in. I never used them but, there are also those that can hold a standard rack and can operate either as retarders or proofers. In fact, some could go from retarder to proofer automaticaly after you programmed their clock. Dick, My Irish Grandmother knew to prove or "proof" the yeast to make sure that it was good before making the dough because she sure was not going to waste any flour with bad yeast. She just let her bread dough *rise* before baking. She knew that Incubators were for the chicken or duck eggs, not kitchen equipment. My minimal cover for rising bread dough is a plastic bag that I get for free from the grocery store. Regards, Charles |
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Ovens for proofing and bread baking?
"Charles Perry" > wrote in message news 
> My Irish Grandmother knew to prove or "proof" the yeast to make > sure that it was good before making the dough because she sure was not > going to waste any flour with bad yeast. Yes, it makes sense to confirm the activity of yeast before baking with it. But *proof* is a noun. Using it as a verb is incorrect. Wrong! Wrong, wrong, wrong!!! > She just let her bread dough *rise* before baking. Did she *punch it down* and or *shape it* so as to separate autolyses from fermentations from 1st proofs from 2nd proofs, and so forth, including retardations. > She knew that Incubators were for the chicken or duck eggs, not > kitchen equipment. She did not know everything! Were she alive today she would be shocked to find that incubators are incubating all kinds of things, including abominations. > My minimal cover for rising bread dough is a plastic bag that I get > for free from the grocery store. That is admirably frugal. But, did you know, if you use a turkey bag, you can go ahead and bake in it. Joan Ross mentioned that possibility long ago when she was young. Well, turkey bags are not free. But they are cheap, compared to legitimate cloches. -- Dicky |
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Ovens for proofing and bread baking?
Dick Adams wrote: > "Charles Perry" > wrote in message news
>> > My Irish Grandmother knew to prove or "proof" the yeast to make > > sure that it was good before making the dough because she sure was not > > going to waste any flour with bad yeast. > > Yes, it makes sense to confirm the activity of yeast before baking with > it. But *proof* is a noun. Using it as a verb is incorrect. Wrong! > > Wrong, wrong, wrong!!! Dicky, Dicky, Dicky.... "to prove or proof" as in My Irish Grandmother knew to prove... is not using proof/prove as a noun. Did you miss Latin class that day? .. |
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Ovens for proofing and bread baking?
Although one might question its authority, Dictionary.com lists the word
"proofed" as in "to become properly light for cooking" as an intransitive verb: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=proof - Steve Brandt "Dick Adams" > wrote in message news
Yes, it makes sense to confirm the activity of yeast before baking with it. But *proof* is a noun. Using it as a verb is incorrect. Wrong! Wrong, wrong, wrong!!! |
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Ovens for proofing and bread baking?
Dick Adams wrote:
> > Did she *punch it down* and or *shape it* so as to separate autolyses > from fermentations from 1st proofs from 2nd proofs, and so forth, including > retardations. Well, she might have said "punch it down", but not to my tender ears. She would not have used those other words at all. She would have said something close to: When the dough gets to the top of the bowl we will push the air out and let it rise again. She knew how to communicate to her audience. > > She did not know everything! > She knew enough to bake very good bread. And, she knew how to explan the importance of good Karma in the kitchen and the role of the Bread Faeries in the process. ( She did not use the word ,Karma, but that is what I call it.) I hesitate to tell this joke for fear that you might misunderstand and take it personal, but I find it funny and I am reminded of it at this time. A visitor to the University stopped a teaching assistant and asked " Could you tell me where the library is at?" The TA replied "Here at the University, we do not end a sentence with the word, at." "OK" said the visitor. "Could you tell me where the library is at, Jackass." Regards, Charles |
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Ovens for proofing and bread baking?
"Charles Perry" > in message nk.net... was discussing an ethnic grandmother: > She knew enough to bake very good bread. And, she knew how to explan > the importance of good Karma in the kitchen and the role of the Bread > Faeries in the process. ( She did not use the word ,Karma, but that is > what I call it.) Well, if she was invoking Faeries, even Karma, one could surmise that she was being facaetious, and thus not be mystified and deluded by her whimsical conduct. Another mentor, preaching punching and proofing and retarding and autolysing, and all that kind of stuff, might really rattle an aspiring breadmaker. > "Here at the University, we do not end a sentence with the word, at." > "OK" said the visitor. "Could you tell me where the library is at, Jackass." Jackass? Which University to they say "Jackass" at? -- Dicky |
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Ovens for proofing and bread baking?
Dick Adams wrote:
> ...if she was invoking Faeries, even Karma, one could surmise that she > was being facaetious, > I am a believer. Those who deny the existance of Wee Folk are well advised to refrain from advertising that point of view in Irish pubs. > Another mentor, preaching punching and proofing and retarding and autolysing, > and all that kind of stuff, might really rattle an aspiring breadmaker. > A few years ago I tried to start a discussion here to get some agreement on terms of art for the sourdough process. I think it ended badly. It is filed under the heading "no good deed goes unpunished". > > Jackass? Which University to they say "Jackass" at? > Yeah, I suppose that "Jackass" is too genteel a term to be in general use at most Universities now. Must be an old joke. Regards, Charles |
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Ovens for proofing and bread baking?
Scott-
So, I missed this thread before it just restarted, on a somewhat different topic... So now it's mid Nov. Did you ever get an oven? Mike Avery has an excellent point -- Peter Reinhard and others saying the oven contributes absolutely but the quality of the dough going into the oven is more significant. Many think that if you don't do the first ferment properly you cannot compensate later. steam and proofing I'll share a site I love which features segments of "Baking with Julia". http://www.pbs.org/juliachild/video.html Tho I don't make my dough like anyone on the show they're all great bakers and worth watching. Pick "Steve Sullivan" in the "Chef" drop down menu. Steve, founder of the wonderful Acme Breads, important member of the artisan movement in the US, says to Julia that he finds that the heat from the electric light on in his home oven works very well for proofing. The house I'm in came with a set of red tinged warming lights over the cooktop which I sometimes use if I want warmth. There are many fairly low tech ways to go. humidity- Steve also uses/demos the method I learned from others and which Peter describes in _BB Apprentice_ pp 92-93 pouring water, Peter suggests hot water, into a heavy pan heated in the oven. I used to spray, toss in ice cubes, and various other methods. Jeffrey Hamelman in _Bread_ pg 27 advocates both boiling water added to hot cast iron pan and ice cubes. (Someone, maybe Peter, warns to cover the glass on the oven door lest it crack with water contacting it. I hadn't read that warning until I'd been throwing water on my oven floor and various other methods for years. Luckily I've never had any accidents, nor steam burns... at least not from any of these things.) I LOVE Jeffrey's _Bread_ book and cannot recommend it too highly. Tho both it and _BB Apprentice_ are predominately focused on breads which also incorporate some measure, usually small, of commercial yeast in a preferment or several preferments, they do have many specifics related to bread using only natural leavens. Of two of the pages in _Bread_ (26-27) addressing steaming one is devoted to the difference in steaming the oven for natually leavened bread. -Marylouise |
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