http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...kel/index.html

Pumpernickel Police take notice!

(It seems that higher temperature incubation of the rye-sour wiped
out the yeast activity, and created stuff (acid?) that impeded the
browning reaction.)

--
DickA

On 3/1/05 12:20 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

> http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...kel/index.html
>
> Pumpernickel Police take notice!
>
> (It seems that higher temperature incubation of the rye-sour wiped
> out the yeast activity, and created stuff (acid?) that impeded the
> browning reaction.)
>
> --
> DickA

Dick,

I think sugar is the key player here.

The crockpot is heating this bread above the point of killing yeasts
(135-140F). But is not heating, at least not rapidly, to the point where the
amylase is inhibited from converting starch to sugar. So the dough is busy
converting starch to sugar but not sugar to gas. (yeasts are dead).

Later as the temp continues to rise, this sugar is caramelized, turning the
crumb dark brown. We, of course, smell this amylase/sugar process as the
bread cooks. It smells fruity, in a way that regular bread does not.

In short, I am saying/speculating: the temp cycle used in the long, slow
bake skews to amylase-sugar activity, not yeast-gas activity.

OK, you say, so what...

Well the "what" might be two things. Wheat flour does not have as much
amylase as rye. (The corn bears further research). So it might be to get to
the traditional "brownness", you need to add malted barley and raise the
amylase content to a more traditional "rye-like" base.

And/or

I suspect that the bread also needs a period of higher heat to fully
caramelize the residual sugar. I have been raising the temp on my trusty
countertop roaster for about 2 hours at the end. This puts the water at a
solid, active, simmer. The interior appears to be browner for doing so. My
bake at this point is about 8-10 hours on low (gentle simmer) and 2 hours at
higher. The pumpernickel police can keep the 16 hour stuff.

So...if the current bread tastes less "pumpernickel-ly" than you like, the
residual sugar is probably at lower levels and thus requires more rye or the
malted barley. It if tastes right, the sugar's good, more heat may do the
trick.

The bread certainly looks good in the pictures.

Will

On 3/1/05 12:20 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

> http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...kel/index.html
>
> Pumpernickel Police take notice!
>
> (It seems that higher temperature incubation of the rye-sour wiped
> out the yeast activity, and created stuff (acid?) that impeded the
> browning reaction.)
>
> --
> DickA

Dick,

I think sugar is the key player here.

The crockpot is heating this bread above the point of killing yeasts
(135-140F). But is not heating, at least not rapidly, to the point where the
amylase is inhibited from converting starch to sugar. So the dough is busy
converting starch to sugar but not sugar to gas. (yeasts are dead).

Later as the temp continues to rise, this sugar is caramelized, turning the
crumb dark brown. We, of course, smell this amylase/sugar process as the
bread cooks. It smells fruity, in a way that regular bread does not.

In short, I am saying/speculating: the temp cycle used in the long, slow
bake skews to amylase-sugar activity, not yeast-gas activity.

OK, you say, so what...

Well the "what" might be two things. Wheat flour does not have as much
amylase as rye. (The corn bears further research). So it might be to get to
the traditional "brownness", you need to add malted barley and raise the
amylase content to a more traditional "rye-like" base.

And/or

I suspect that the bread also needs a period of higher heat to fully
caramelize the residual sugar. I have been raising the temp on my trusty
countertop roaster for about 2 hours at the end. This puts the water at a
solid, active, simmer. The interior appears to be browner for doing so. My
bake at this point is about 8-10 hours on low (gentle simmer) and 2 hours at
higher. The pumpernickel police can keep the 16 hour stuff.

So...if the current bread tastes less "pumpernickel-ly" than you like, the
residual sugar is probably at lower levels and thus requires more rye or the
malted barley. It if tastes right, the sugar's good, more heat may do the
trick.

The bread certainly looks good in the pictures.

Will

"Will" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.60.1109707850.30360.rec.food.sourdoug ...=


> > http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...kel/index.html

> In short, I am saying/speculating: the temp cycle used in the long, =
slow
> bake skews to amylase-sugar activity, not yeast-gas activity.

In Try 3 there was a 2 hr. rise as well as some time for the crock pot
to warm.

> it might be to get to the traditional "brownness", you need to add=20
> malted barley and raise the amylase content to a more traditional=20
> "rye-like" base.

Ain't got none of that, but could try some diastatic malt. Actually, I
do not see how it could get much browner. It could be sweeter,
though.

> I suspect that the bread also needs a period of higher heat to fully
> caramelize the residual sugar.

I don't think we are talking about caramelization here. That starts
at quite higher temperatures, certainly above boiling. The temperature
I measure in the subject loaves is 175 degrees F. So it is probably
Maillard processes which produce the browning, and some flavor
as well. It should be clear that the interior temperature of bread
loaves during baking/cooking cannot exceed boiling temperature.

I could guess that the lighter color of the loaf of Try 2 was due to=20
inhibition of amylases by the excessive amount of acid generated in
the rye sour by the long incubation at relatively high temperature
(85 - 90 degrees F. cf. 70 degrees F. for Try 3 and Try 1).
(Reducing sugars and amino acids are needed for the Maillard
reactions).

> I have been raising the temp on my trusty countertop roaster=20
> for about 2 hours at the end ... The interior appears to be=20
> browner for doing so.

The idea of using a countertop roaster for cooking/baking bread
seems a very good one, particularly since its compactness and
insulation renders it energy conservative. The fancy-oven jocks
might take notice of that, but I guess they won't. Anyway, I do=20
not think that higher temperature would accelerate the sugar=20
formation and browning in pumpernickel-type breads. But I
will try it.

I wonder if overclocking a countertop roaster could make it
function as cloche for bread baking.=20

> The bread certainly looks good in the pictures.

Well, of course, pictures can be fixed. I could fool you. But
I wouldn't! They are from a 1.3 MPixel camera. Even those
images are too big for my screen, so have to be made smaller
with a photo editor.

--
DickA

In article >,
says...
>
I'm enjoying the thread, but have to say that the subject would make a
great horror movie title, too.

Rick

On 3/1/05 10:10 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "Will" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.60.1109707850.30360.rec.food.sourdoug ...
>
>>> http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...kel/index.html
>
>> In short, I am saying/speculating: the temp cycle used in the long, slow
>> bake skews to amylase-sugar activity, not yeast-gas activity.
>
> In Try 3 there was a 2 hr. rise as well as some time for the crock pot
> to warm.

Giving the yeasts a little more time to consume that sugar perhaps?

>
>> it might be to get to the traditional "brownness", you need to add
>> malted barley and raise the amylase content to a more traditional
>> "rye-like" base.
>
> Ain't got none of that, but could try some diastatic malt. Actually, I
> do not see how it could get much browner. It could be sweeter,
> though.

I have an ancient bag I bought from KA ten years ago. They still carry it.
It's easier to buy some barley at the local whatever and let it germinate in
your mason jar sprouter (everybody has one in the basement, garage or attic
don't they?).
>
>> I suspect that the bread also needs a period of higher heat to fully
>> caramelize the residual sugar.
>
> I don't think we are talking about caramelization here. That starts
> at quite higher temperatures, certainly above boiling. The temperature
> I measure in the subject loaves is 175 degrees F. So it is probably
> Maillard processes which produce the browning, and some flavor
> as well. It should be clear that the interior temperature of bread
> loaves during baking/cooking cannot exceed boiling temperature.

I agree. Caramelization is not right. Maillard is probably right or maybe
the starches are just gelatinizing.

> I could guess that the lighter color of the loaf of Try 2 was due to
> inhibition of amylases by the excessive amount of acid generated in
> the rye sour by the long incubation at relatively high temperature
> (85 - 90 degrees F. cf. 70 degrees F. for Try 3 and Try 1).
> (Reducing sugars and amino acids are needed for the Maillard
> reactions).

Perhaps the longer fermentation reduced the sugars to gas.

>> I have been raising the temp on my trusty countertop roaster
>> for about 2 hours at the end ... The interior appears to be
>> browner for doing so.
>
> The idea of using a countertop roaster for cooking/baking bread
> seems a very good one, particularly since its compactness and
> insulation renders it energy conservative. The fancy-oven jocks
> might take notice of that, but I guess they won't. Anyway, I do
> not think that higher temperature would accelerate the sugar
> formation and browning in pumpernickel-type breads. But I
> will try it.

It works well for me. Cooking one loaf at a time for most of a day seemed
impractical and energy inefficient. The 18 quart capacity relieves that and
the temperature is more adjustable.

$29 for GE model at Wal-mart. Works good as small proofing box too...
We like our dinner rolls.

>
> I wonder if overclocking a countertop roaster could make it
> function as cloche for bread baking.


>> The bread certainly looks good in the pictures.
>
> Well, of course, pictures can be fixed. I could fool you. But
> I wouldn't! They are from a 1.3 MPixel camera. Even those
> images are too big for my screen, so have to be made smaller
> with a photo editor.
>
The best fix is a fisherman's ruler <g>.

> --
> DickA
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 3/1/05 10:10 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "Will" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.60.1109707850.30360.rec.food.sourdoug ...
>
>>> http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...kel/index.html
>
>> In short, I am saying/speculating: the temp cycle used in the long, slow
>> bake skews to amylase-sugar activity, not yeast-gas activity.
>
> In Try 3 there was a 2 hr. rise as well as some time for the crock pot
> to warm.

Giving the yeasts a little more time to consume that sugar perhaps?

>
>> it might be to get to the traditional "brownness", you need to add
>> malted barley and raise the amylase content to a more traditional
>> "rye-like" base.
>
> Ain't got none of that, but could try some diastatic malt. Actually, I
> do not see how it could get much browner. It could be sweeter,
> though.

I have an ancient bag I bought from KA ten years ago. They still carry it.
It's easier to buy some barley at the local whatever and let it germinate in
your mason jar sprouter (everybody has one in the basement, garage or attic
don't they?).
>
>> I suspect that the bread also needs a period of higher heat to fully
>> caramelize the residual sugar.
>
> I don't think we are talking about caramelization here. That starts
> at quite higher temperatures, certainly above boiling. The temperature
> I measure in the subject loaves is 175 degrees F. So it is probably
> Maillard processes which produce the browning, and some flavor
> as well. It should be clear that the interior temperature of bread
> loaves during baking/cooking cannot exceed boiling temperature.

I agree. Caramelization is not right. Maillard is probably right or maybe
the starches are just gelatinizing.

> I could guess that the lighter color of the loaf of Try 2 was due to
> inhibition of amylases by the excessive amount of acid generated in
> the rye sour by the long incubation at relatively high temperature
> (85 - 90 degrees F. cf. 70 degrees F. for Try 3 and Try 1).
> (Reducing sugars and amino acids are needed for the Maillard
> reactions).

Perhaps the longer fermentation reduced the sugars to gas.

>> I have been raising the temp on my trusty countertop roaster
>> for about 2 hours at the end ... The interior appears to be
>> browner for doing so.
>
> The idea of using a countertop roaster for cooking/baking bread
> seems a very good one, particularly since its compactness and
> insulation renders it energy conservative. The fancy-oven jocks
> might take notice of that, but I guess they won't. Anyway, I do
> not think that higher temperature would accelerate the sugar
> formation and browning in pumpernickel-type breads. But I
> will try it.

It works well for me. Cooking one loaf at a time for most of a day seemed
impractical and energy inefficient. The 18 quart capacity relieves that and
the temperature is more adjustable.

$29 for GE model at Wal-mart. Works good as small proofing box too...
We like our dinner rolls.

>
> I wonder if overclocking a countertop roaster could make it
> function as cloche for bread baking.


>> The bread certainly looks good in the pictures.
>
> Well, of course, pictures can be fixed. I could fool you. But
> I wouldn't! They are from a 1.3 MPixel camera. Even those
> images are too big for my screen, so have to be made smaller
> with a photo editor.
>
The best fix is a fisherman's ruler <g>.

> --
> DickA
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

"Will" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.62.1109767160.30360.rec.food.sourdoug ...=


> >>> =
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...kel/index.html

> > In Try 3 there was a 2 hr. rise as well as some time for the crock =
pot
> > to warm.
>=20
> Giving the yeasts a little more time to consume that sugar perhaps?

One assumes that sugars are produced during fermentation by amylases
which happen to be in the flour, and that certain of them, namely =
maltose,
are left behind by the yeasts to support the lactobacilli, the Maillard=20
reaction(s), and whatever else may be going on.

> ... mason jar sprouter (everybody has one in the basement, garage or =
attic
> don't they?)

Got mason jars. What then?

> $29 for GE model at Wal-mart. Works good as small proofing box too...

Well, it does take counter/storage space. One thing about frugal =
kitchen
arts is that they start in frugal kitchens, typically those in which =
space does
not abound.

> The best fix is a fisherman's ruler <g>.

Right. Take Ulrike's ruler, for instance. Her inches are very short.

--
DickA

"Will" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.62.1109767160.30360.rec.food.sourdoug ...=


> >>> =
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...kel/index.html

> > In Try 3 there was a 2 hr. rise as well as some time for the crock =
pot
> > to warm.
>=20
> Giving the yeasts a little more time to consume that sugar perhaps?

One assumes that sugars are produced during fermentation by amylases
which happen to be in the flour, and that certain of them, namely =
maltose,
are left behind by the yeasts to support the lactobacilli, the Maillard=20
reaction(s), and whatever else may be going on.

> ... mason jar sprouter (everybody has one in the basement, garage or =
attic
> don't they?)

Got mason jars. What then?

> $29 for GE model at Wal-mart. Works good as small proofing box too...

Well, it does take counter/storage space. One thing about frugal =
kitchen
arts is that they start in frugal kitchens, typically those in which =
space does
not abound.

> The best fix is a fisherman's ruler <g>.

Right. Take Ulrike's ruler, for instance. Her inches are very short.

--
DickA

On 3/2/05 8:40 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "Will" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.62.1109767160.30360.rec.food.sourdoug ...
>
>>>>> http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...kel/index.html
>
>>> In Try 3 there was a 2 hr. rise as well as some time for the crock pot
>>> to warm.
>>
>> Giving the yeasts a little more time to consume that sugar perhaps?
>
> One assumes that sugars are produced during fermentation by amylases
> which happen to be in the flour, and that certain of them, namely maltose,
> are left behind by the yeasts to support the lactobacilli, the Maillard
> reaction(s), and whatever else may be going on.

I am still coming to grips with this bread. Everything about it is different
from what I typically practice. My regular breads (not the ryes) get a long
slow, multiple stage, ferment, then a hot bake. These pumpernickels seems to
do better with a short meal ferment, a grain soak, and a longer, low heat,
bake. My preoccupation with sugar is based on the fruity smell of the slow
cooking, makes me think a pie is in the oven, and the uniqueness of the
finished bread's flavor, which as you know, is quite different from regular
ryes or wheats.

>
>> ... mason jar sprouter (everybody has one in the basement, garage or attic
>> don't they?)
>
> Got mason jars. What then?

Soak the barley overnight then drain it. Keep it damp, not submerged, for
about 36 hours or so. You'll see small bumps beginning to form at one end of
the berries. When the emerging "tendril" is barely apparent (1 mm or less)
it's ready. Dry slowly, takes 3 or 4 days. Then mill to flour in your KA. I
typically use small amounts in my whole grain breads: 1 tablespoon per loaf.
The white flours we buy are already malted. It's the home milled stuff that
is deficient.

I believe you can germinate any grain you have available and realize the
benefit. The germination merely kicks the whole enzyme process into gear.

>
>> $29 for GE model at Wal-mart. Works good as small proofing box too...
>
> Well, it does take counter/storage space. One thing about frugal kitchen
> arts is that they start in frugal kitchens, typically those in which space
> does
> not abound.
>
It does take space. But the bragging rights for cooking full bore
pumpernickel in a $29 appliance are considerable. And it steams <g>.

>> The best fix is a fisherman's ruler <g>.
>
> Right. Take Ulrike's ruler, for instance. Her inches are very short.

She is the clever one isn't she?

On 3/2/05 8:40 AM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:

>
> "Will" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.62.1109767160.30360.rec.food.sourdoug ...
>
>>>>> http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5F...kel/index.html
>
>>> In Try 3 there was a 2 hr. rise as well as some time for the crock pot
>>> to warm.
>>
>> Giving the yeasts a little more time to consume that sugar perhaps?
>
> One assumes that sugars are produced during fermentation by amylases
> which happen to be in the flour, and that certain of them, namely maltose,
> are left behind by the yeasts to support the lactobacilli, the Maillard
> reaction(s), and whatever else may be going on.

I am still coming to grips with this bread. Everything about it is different
from what I typically practice. My regular breads (not the ryes) get a long
slow, multiple stage, ferment, then a hot bake. These pumpernickels seems to
do better with a short meal ferment, a grain soak, and a longer, low heat,
bake. My preoccupation with sugar is based on the fruity smell of the slow
cooking, makes me think a pie is in the oven, and the uniqueness of the
finished bread's flavor, which as you know, is quite different from regular
ryes or wheats.

>
>> ... mason jar sprouter (everybody has one in the basement, garage or attic
>> don't they?)
>
> Got mason jars. What then?

Soak the barley overnight then drain it. Keep it damp, not submerged, for
about 36 hours or so. You'll see small bumps beginning to form at one end of
the berries. When the emerging "tendril" is barely apparent (1 mm or less)
it's ready. Dry slowly, takes 3 or 4 days. Then mill to flour in your KA. I
typically use small amounts in my whole grain breads: 1 tablespoon per loaf.
The white flours we buy are already malted. It's the home milled stuff that
is deficient.

I believe you can germinate any grain you have available and realize the
benefit. The germination merely kicks the whole enzyme process into gear.

>
>> $29 for GE model at Wal-mart. Works good as small proofing box too...
>
> Well, it does take counter/storage space. One thing about frugal kitchen
> arts is that they start in frugal kitchens, typically those in which space
> does
> not abound.
>
It does take space. But the bragging rights for cooking full bore
pumpernickel in a $29 appliance are considerable. And it steams <g>.

>> The best fix is a fisherman's ruler <g>.
>
> Right. Take Ulrike's ruler, for instance. Her inches are very short.

She is the clever one isn't she?