Greg wrote:
> I've been experimenting with natural leavening for a few months now,
and
> finally obtained some loaves I'm happy with.
>
> Two of my goals have been (i) to eliminate sourness, i.e. to approach
a
> French pain-au-levain rather than San Francisco sourdough, and (ii)
to
> develop a system that works effectively for occasional baking.
>
> Two of the components of my solution for which I owe thanks to
members
> of r.f.s are (i) to use a firm starter, and (ii) to use smaller
> refreshments. I apply (ii) gradually to move from "wash" to "build".
>
> My typical strategy is as follows. Weights and multiplication factors
> apply to the flour, not the total. To convert oz to g multiply by 30.
>
> 1. Start with 1 oz (at 50% hydration) in the refrigerator
> 2. Multiply by 4 using hard white flour (still at 50%)
> 3. Multiply by 3 using hard white flour (still at 50%); pull back
1 oz
> and refrigerate it
> 4. Multiply by 2 using white bread flour plus coarse salt (raising
to
> final hydration); shape and pan
> 5. Bake
>
> This gives a loaf of 22 oz (about 2 lb 4 oz/1.1 kg total pre-bake
weight).
>
> 60% seems to be the traditional final hydration for French bread:
this
> requires the final increment, which doubles the flour weight, to be
at
> 70%. Interestingly, even 63% seems to be noticeably sour compared to
> 60%; perhaps this explains the traditional figure.
>
> The starter only gets to see hard white flour, and remains at 50%.
If,
> after a long interval between loaves, the starter is excessively sour
at
> the beginning, an additional stage is introduced between 1 and 2:
>
> 1A. Reduce starter to 0.25 oz, then multiply by 4 back to 1 oz
>
> This discards only 0.75 oz of flour, and can be repeated if
necessary.
>
> There are still plenty of degrees of freedom left, e.g. fermentation
> times at each stage. I'm typically allowing half to one hour warm-up
> before refreshment, one to two hours room-temperature fermentation
after
> refreshment (and before shaping, in the last case), and 24 hours in
the
> fridge after each refreshment. Building over several days like this
> means that a two- to three-hour window anywhere within each day is
> sufficient to build, build, build and finally bake.
>
> I hope this may be of use to occasional bakers with European tastes,
and
> perhaps of interest to others. I too found all the conflicting
folklore
> somewhat overwhelming at the beginning, but feel that I'm starting to
> get a grip on it...
>
> Greg
>
> --
> To get my e-mail address, remove a dot and replace a dot with a dash.

Is this what you mean?

1 oz starter @ 50% = 1 oz bread flour, 0.5 oz water

warm up 1.5 hours

multiply by four

add 3 oz bread flour plus 1.5 oz water
(now 4 oz bread flour + 2 oz water)

24 hours in fridge

warm up 1.5 hours

multiply by three

add 8 oz bread flour and 4 oz water
(now 12 oz bread flour + 6 oz water)

save 1.5 oz starter for next time
(now 11 oz bread flour + 5.5 oz water)

24 hours in fridge

warm up 1.5 hours

add 11 oz GP flour + 8 oz water + 2 t coarse salt
(now 22 oz flour + 13.5 oz water + salt = 61.4%)


shape into loaf and bake

Do you really measure to the half ounce?

Jonathan Kandell wrote:

> Out of curiosity, why do feel it is important to keep all the initial
> builds at 50%? As long as the amount held back in fridge ends up 50%,
> does it matter what came before? I keep a stiff starter too, but I
> usually stiffen my bread dough to get it back to 50 as it goes in the
> fridge.

The idea, motivated by reducing sourness, is to keep the hydration as
low as possible for as long as possible. Thus only the final dough is at
a higher hydration. Because it also contains salt, I pull back one stage
earlier, and no hydration adjustment is required.

An open question is whether increased hydration causes sourness only by
accelerating fermentation overall, in which case hydration and timing
changes are not independent, or whether there is really an effect of
hydration on "the ratio of sourness to other flavour development".

Greg

--
To get my e-mail address, remove a dot and replace a dot with a dash.

Jonathan Kandell wrote:

> Out of curiosity, why do feel it is important to keep all the initial
> builds at 50%? As long as the amount held back in fridge ends up 50%,
> does it matter what came before? I keep a stiff starter too, but I
> usually stiffen my bread dough to get it back to 50 as it goes in the
> fridge.

The idea, motivated by reducing sourness, is to keep the hydration as
low as possible for as long as possible. Thus only the final dough is at
a higher hydration. Because it also contains salt, I pull back one stage
earlier, and no hydration adjustment is required.

An open question is whether increased hydration causes sourness only by
accelerating fermentation overall, in which case hydration and timing
changes are not independent, or whether there is really an effect of
hydration on "the ratio of sourness to other flavour development".

Greg

--
To get my e-mail address, remove a dot and replace a dot with a dash.

efmoya wrote:

> Is this what you mean?
>
> 1 oz starter @ 50% = 1 oz bread flour, 0.5 oz water

Yes, except that I use organic hard flour where you say "bread", and
bread flour where you say "GP".

> warm up 1.5 hours

More like 30 minutes to 1 hour.

> multiply by four
>
> add 3 oz bread flour plus 1.5 oz water
> (now 4 oz bread flour + 2 oz water)

Insert some room-temperature fermentation here, say 1-2 hours.

> [...]
>
> add 11 oz GP flour + 8 oz water + 2 t coarse salt
> (now 22 oz flour + 13.5 oz water + salt = 61.4%)

7.7 oz of water gives you 60%. I can certainly tell the difference
between 60% and 63%, so even 1.4% may be significant.

I use 1 scant tablespoon of coarse salt, the minimum I think is
necessary. Your taste may differ.

> shape into loaf and bake

Typically, ferment-shape-refrigerate-bake (fermentation and refrigeraion
as above).

> Do you really measure to the half ounce?

0.1 oz! Well, if you've got such a scale (digital, and in fact
inexpensive) you might as well use it. Of course it's not necessary.

Greg

--
To get my e-mail address, remove a dot and replace a dot with a dash.

Greg wrote:
>
> An open question is whether increased hydration causes sourness only by
> accelerating fermentation overall, in which case hydration and timing
> changes are not independent, or whether there is really an effect of
> hydration on "the ratio of sourness to other flavour development".
>

Temperature is also important. I have had low hydration starter
and low hydration intermediate builds get extremely sour if the
room temperature got too warm. Occaisionally, low hydration
starter and/or builds got extremly sour for no apparent reason.
However, in most cases, low hydration and cool temperatures
produced mildly sour bread.

The mystical utterings and writings of some Desem enthusiasts
aside, It is not necessary to bury a ball of whole wheat paste
hidden in a 50 lb sack of flour out in the woods in a full moon
to get the results. Just low hydration and cool temperatures
will do the trick.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Greg wrote:
>
> An open question is whether increased hydration causes sourness only by
> accelerating fermentation overall, in which case hydration and timing
> changes are not independent, or whether there is really an effect of
> hydration on "the ratio of sourness to other flavour development".
>

Temperature is also important. I have had low hydration starter
and low hydration intermediate builds get extremely sour if the
room temperature got too warm. Occaisionally, low hydration
starter and/or builds got extremly sour for no apparent reason.
However, in most cases, low hydration and cool temperatures
produced mildly sour bread.

The mystical utterings and writings of some Desem enthusiasts
aside, It is not necessary to bury a ball of whole wheat paste
hidden in a 50 lb sack of flour out in the woods in a full moon
to get the results. Just low hydration and cool temperatures
will do the trick.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Charles, is it possible to be more specific about what is meant by cool
temperatures. That is, for storage and for builds. Thanks
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Perry" >
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
To: >
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 9:38 AM
Subject: Non-sour & occasional baking


>
>
> Greg wrote:
> >
> > An open question is whether increased hydration causes sourness only by
> > accelerating fermentation overall, in which case hydration and timing
> > changes are not independent, or whether there is really an effect of
> > hydration on "the ratio of sourness to other flavour development".
> >
>
> Temperature is also important. I have had low hydration starter
> and low hydration intermediate builds get extremely sour if the
> room temperature got too warm. Occaisionally, low hydration
> starter and/or builds got extremly sour for no apparent reason.
> However, in most cases, low hydration and cool temperatures
> produced mildly sour bread.
>
> The mystical utterings and writings of some Desem enthusiasts
> aside, It is not necessary to bury a ball of whole wheat paste
> hidden in a 50 lb sack of flour out in the woods in a full moon
> to get the results. Just low hydration and cool temperatures
> will do the trick.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
> --
> Charles Perry
> Reply to:
>
> ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

Charles, is it possible to be more specific about what is meant by cool
temperatures. That is, for storage and for builds. Thanks
Al
----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Perry" >
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
To: >
Sent: Friday, March 25, 2005 9:38 AM
Subject: Non-sour & occasional baking


>
>
> Greg wrote:
> >
> > An open question is whether increased hydration causes sourness only by
> > accelerating fermentation overall, in which case hydration and timing
> > changes are not independent, or whether there is really an effect of
> > hydration on "the ratio of sourness to other flavour development".
> >
>
> Temperature is also important. I have had low hydration starter
> and low hydration intermediate builds get extremely sour if the
> room temperature got too warm. Occaisionally, low hydration
> starter and/or builds got extremly sour for no apparent reason.
> However, in most cases, low hydration and cool temperatures
> produced mildly sour bread.
>
> The mystical utterings and writings of some Desem enthusiasts
> aside, It is not necessary to bury a ball of whole wheat paste
> hidden in a 50 lb sack of flour out in the woods in a full moon
> to get the results. Just low hydration and cool temperatures
> will do the trick.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
>
>
> --
> Charles Perry
> Reply to:
>
> ** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

Al Wegener wrote:
>
> ... be more specific about what is meant by cool
> temperatures. That is, for storage and for builds.
>
Storage is in the refrigerator, about 36F to 42F. Builds at room
temperature. Winter house temperature in in the range of 62F to
70F.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Al Wegener wrote:
>
> ... be more specific about what is meant by cool
> temperatures. That is, for storage and for builds.
>
Storage is in the refrigerator, about 36F to 42F. Builds at room
temperature. Winter house temperature in in the range of 62F to
70F.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **