Will wrote:
>
> Well, well, well...
>
> I guess the mystery is gone for good now.
>
No , it is not. Some people have success and others, including
myself , do not. I tried for years off and on to make a starter
with white flour and never got anything usable until Carl was
kind enough to send me a start.



>
> I am truly amazed. Any doofus can do this.
>

Nope. That is not the answer. I am skilled, talented and
experienced in the kitchen and I could not do it. I have been
called a lot of names, and some of them fit a bit, but doofus in
the kitchen is not one of those names. Those who find it easy to
start a culture with white flour do not understand why everyone
can't do it as well. Those who can't, doubt that it is possible
or doubt their own ability.

I don't know the answer. All of these fine folks can't be liars
and , I have no doubt about my kitchen ability. For me, rye
always worked and white always failed. Perhaps one is either
cursed or blessed.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Will wrote:
>
> Well, well, well...
>
> I guess the mystery is gone for good now.
>
No , it is not. Some people have success and others, including
myself , do not. I tried for years off and on to make a starter
with white flour and never got anything usable until Carl was
kind enough to send me a start.



>
> I am truly amazed. Any doofus can do this.
>

Nope. That is not the answer. I am skilled, talented and
experienced in the kitchen and I could not do it. I have been
called a lot of names, and some of them fit a bit, but doofus in
the kitchen is not one of those names. Those who find it easy to
start a culture with white flour do not understand why everyone
can't do it as well. Those who can't, doubt that it is possible
or doubt their own ability.

I don't know the answer. All of these fine folks can't be liars
and , I have no doubt about my kitchen ability. For me, rye
always worked and white always failed. Perhaps one is either
cursed or blessed.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message =
...

> I tried for years off and on to make a starter with white
> flour and never got anything usable until Carl was
> kind enough to send me a start.

My bet would be that if you tried now again, it would
work, and it would be Carl's.

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message =
...

> I tried for years off and on to make a starter with white
> flour and never got anything usable until Carl was
> kind enough to send me a start.

My bet would be that if you tried now again, it would
work, and it would be Carl's.

Charles Perry wrote:

>Will wrote:
>
>
>>Well, well, well...
>>
>>I guess the mystery is gone for good now.
>>
>o , it is not. Some people have success and others, including
>myself , do not. I tried for years off and on to make a starter
>with white flour and never got anything usable until Carl was
>kind enough to send me a start.
>
>
>
I don't know where you were on your own sourdough learning curve when
you tried to start a starter with just white flour. On my sourdough web
site, I have a page on starting a starter. And it gets me more angry
and frustrated emails than any other page.

All too often they are from people who are new to baking (which I tried
to address with a 3 recipe introduction to yeasted baking), as well as
new to sourdough. So, they don't know what to look for, they don't feed
their starter often enough, and they don't feed it enough cycles to get
it really established.

It is easier to start a starter with rye, but I tend to think that if a
person keeps at it, they will get a usable starter with rye, whole
wheat, or even white flour. I'd try it in my kitchen, but as Dick says
in another post, I'd probably just wind up with Carl's again.

Mike

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 04:10:53 GMT, Charles Perry >
wrote:

>
>
>Will wrote:
>>
>> Well, well, well...
>>
>> I guess the mystery is gone for good now.
>>
>No , it is not. Some people have success and others, including
>myself , do not. I tried for years off and on to make a starter
>with white flour and never got anything usable until Carl was
>kind enough to send me a start.
>
>
>
>>
>> I am truly amazed. Any doofus can do this.
>>
>
>Nope. That is not the answer. I am skilled, talented and
>experienced in the kitchen and I could not do it. I have been
>called a lot of names, and some of them fit a bit, but doofus in
>the kitchen is not one of those names. Those who find it easy to
>start a culture with white flour do not understand why everyone
>can't do it as well. Those who can't, doubt that it is possible
>or doubt their own ability.
>
>I don't know the answer. All of these fine folks can't be liars
>and , I have no doubt about my kitchen ability. For me, rye
>always worked and white always failed. Perhaps one is either
>cursed or blessed.
>
>Regards,
>
>Charles

You have offended the White Flour sourdough fairies. You need to make
amends. They are rather like the snubbed fairy in "Sleeping Beauty"
and you know what happened there. Be particularly careful around white
flour and report any suspicious activity.

Boron

Mike Avery wrote:
>
>
>> I don't know where you were on your own sourdough learning curve when
> you tried to start a starter with just white flour.

I am not sure where I will end up , so I can't place myself back
then. However, the point I was trying to make is that if an
experienced professional chef can have the same experience of
failure (repeatedly over several years) as reported by novices,
perhaps there is something more going on that is not easily
explained by crediting the failures to ignorance or inexperience
in the kitchen.

Also, I am not saying that I didn't end up with a starter of some
sort, It just was not what I considered usable for bread without
help from commercial yeast. Definately not in the same class as
currently available recognized strains.

Today there are better sources of information on how to begin a
starter culture. Your Site and Samarthas come to mind, but I
still think that beginners are better served by starting with an
established culture. How else will they know if they have a good
culture or something that should be poured down the drain?

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Mike Avery wrote:
>
>
>> I don't know where you were on your own sourdough learning curve when
> you tried to start a starter with just white flour.

I am not sure where I will end up , so I can't place myself back
then. However, the point I was trying to make is that if an
experienced professional chef can have the same experience of
failure (repeatedly over several years) as reported by novices,
perhaps there is something more going on that is not easily
explained by crediting the failures to ignorance or inexperience
in the kitchen.

Also, I am not saying that I didn't end up with a starter of some
sort, It just was not what I considered usable for bread without
help from commercial yeast. Definately not in the same class as
currently available recognized strains.

Today there are better sources of information on how to begin a
starter culture. Your Site and Samarthas come to mind, but I
still think that beginners are better served by starting with an
established culture. How else will they know if they have a good
culture or something that should be poured down the drain?

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Charles Perry wrote:

>
>Today there are better sources of information on how to begin a
>starter culture. Your Site and Samarthas come to mind, but I
>still think that beginners are better served by starting with an
>established culture. How else will they know if they have a good
>culture or something that should be poured down the drain?
>

I totally agree that beginners are best served getting a known good
culture, whether from a friend, the friends of Carl, or a reliable
vendor. On my "starting a starter" page I all but beg beginners to not
start by starting a starter, but to get a known good one.

When you are starting, you don't know what a starter should look and
smell like, how to handle it. Getting a good one eliminates a lot of
variables and makes it easier to learn how to make sourdough breads.

Mike

Charles Perry wrote:

>
>Today there are better sources of information on how to begin a
>starter culture. Your Site and Samarthas come to mind, but I
>still think that beginners are better served by starting with an
>established culture. How else will they know if they have a good
>culture or something that should be poured down the drain?
>

I totally agree that beginners are best served getting a known good
culture, whether from a friend, the friends of Carl, or a reliable
vendor. On my "starting a starter" page I all but beg beginners to not
start by starting a starter, but to get a known good one.

When you are starting, you don't know what a starter should look and
smell like, how to handle it. Getting a good one eliminates a lot of
variables and makes it easier to learn how to make sourdough breads.

Mike

Boron Elgar wrote:
>
> You have offended the White Flour sourdough fairies.
>
You may have put your finger on an explanation that fits all the
facts. I and the others that failed may have offended the Bread
Faeries in some manner and that failure is the price they exacted
upon us.

I listened to my Irish grandmother and respect the old wisdom. I
will do whatever is needed to keep myself on the good side of any
of the Wee Folk. It would be particularly bad to be in serious
trouble with those that we depend upon to raise our bread.

Regards,
Charles

Oh, Ticker just chimed in with one of her favorite quotes:
"Never ascribe to malice, what is perfectly well explained by
stupidy" I wonder what she meant by that?

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Boron Elgar wrote:
>
> You have offended the White Flour sourdough fairies.
>
You may have put your finger on an explanation that fits all the
facts. I and the others that failed may have offended the Bread
Faeries in some manner and that failure is the price they exacted
upon us.

I listened to my Irish grandmother and respect the old wisdom. I
will do whatever is needed to keep myself on the good side of any
of the Wee Folk. It would be particularly bad to be in serious
trouble with those that we depend upon to raise our bread.

Regards,
Charles

Oh, Ticker just chimed in with one of her favorite quotes:
"Never ascribe to malice, what is perfectly well explained by
stupidy" I wonder what she meant by that?

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Charles Perry > wrote:

>"Never ascribe to malice, what is perfectly well explained by
>stupidy" I wonder what she meant by that?

Bob Heinlein. It's a basic rule of live, right after e=mc^2.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

Charles Perry > wrote:

>"Never ascribe to malice, what is perfectly well explained by
>stupidy" I wonder what she meant by that?

Bob Heinlein. It's a basic rule of live, right after e=mc^2.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

Charles Perry wrote:
....
> Also, I am not saying that I didn't end up with a starter of some
> sort, It just was not what I considered usable for bread without
> help from commercial yeast.
Yep. Exactly the counsel I give to newbies as well. How do I know? BDTD!

But, do they listen? No-o-o! Then again, neither did I, at first...(:-o)!


Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 20:21:52 GMT, Charles Perry >
wrote:

>
>
>Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>> You have offended the White Flour sourdough fairies.
>>
>You may have put your finger on an explanation that fits all the
>facts. I and the others that failed may have offended the Bread
>Faeries in some manner and that failure is the price they exacted
>upon us.
>
>I listened to my Irish grandmother and respect the old wisdom. I
>will do whatever is needed to keep myself on the good side of any
>of the Wee Folk. It would be particularly bad to be in serious
>trouble with those that we depend upon to raise our bread.

I protected myself by marrying into Flanagans and Quinns.
>
>Regards,
>Charles
>
>Oh, Ticker just chimed in with one of her favorite quotes:
>"Never ascribe to malice, what is perfectly well explained by
>stupidy" I wonder what she meant by that?

Let Ticker be your familiar with the Wee Folk. She sounds wise beyond
her whiskers.

Boron

Gary Woods wrote:

> Charles Perry > wrote:
>
>
>>"Never ascribe to malice, what is perfectly well explained by
>>stupidy" I wonder what she meant by that?
>
>
> Bob Heinlein. It's a basic rule of live, right after e=mc^2.
>
>
> Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
> Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

great quote- however probably not Heinlein

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_J._Hanlon

Dan w

Gary Woods wrote:

> Charles Perry > wrote:
>
>
>>"Never ascribe to malice, what is perfectly well explained by
>>stupidy" I wonder what she meant by that?
>
>
> Bob Heinlein. It's a basic rule of live, right after e=mc^2.
>
>
> Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
> Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

great quote- however probably not Heinlein

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_J._Hanlon

Dan w

dan w > wrote:

>great quote- however probably not Heinlein
>
>http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_J._Hanlon

That's pretty much the version in the jargon file, which is on another
computer somewhere.... and as happens with universal truth, a number of
people have said similar things. I quoted it to a cow-orker once to
explain the apparently devious actions of a boss.

We now return you to your sourdough, currently fermenting...


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

dan w > wrote:

>great quote- however probably not Heinlein
>
>http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Robert_J._Hanlon

That's pretty much the version in the jargon file, which is on another
computer somewhere.... and as happens with universal truth, a number of
people have said similar things. I quoted it to a cow-orker once to
explain the apparently devious actions of a boss.

We now return you to your sourdough, currently fermenting...


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

"Gary Woods" said to "dan w"

> as happens with universal truth, a number of
> people have said similar things. =20

I, for one, am very keen on universal truth.

> I quoted it to a cow-orker once ...

Do you really thing that truth is valued by people who
do ugly things to domestic animals?

> We now return you to your sourdough, currently fermenting ...

Zonkers! That sponge must be really rotten by now!

I just hope he finds his caps key.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Gary Woods" said to "dan w"

> as happens with universal truth, a number of
> people have said similar things. =20

I, for one, am very keen on universal truth.

> I quoted it to a cow-orker once ...

Do you really thing that truth is valued by people who
do ugly things to domestic animals?

> We now return you to your sourdough, currently fermenting ...

Zonkers! That sponge must be really rotten by now!

I just hope he finds his caps key.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
>> I quoted it to a cow-orker once ...

> Do you really thing that truth is valued by people who
> do ugly things to domestic animals?

Dick,

If you are going to correct people on their typing/spelling, you should
first make sure your own house is in order.

- Steve Brandt

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
>> I quoted it to a cow-orker once ...

> Do you really thing that truth is valued by people who
> do ugly things to domestic animals?

Dick,

If you are going to correct people on their typing/spelling, you should
first make sure your own house is in order.

- Steve Brandt

"Steve B" > wrote:

>If you are going to correct people on their typing/spelling, you should
>first make sure your own house is in order.

Criminy! It was a freakin' JOKE!

Usage by the author of "Dilbert," deprecated form of the idiots we work
with.

If you have to explain it...


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

"Steve B" > wrote in message=20
...
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message=20
> ...
> > Do you really thing that truth is valued by people ...

> If you are going to correct people on their typing/spelling, you =
should=20
> first make sure your own house is in order.

It's my stupid spell checker -- it cannot figure out when I have typed
the wrong word so long as the wrong word is spelled correctly.

But, Steve,
I do good things, like:
Trimming irrelevant quoted text,
Expounding more or less grammatically,
Using capital letters where they belong,
Using an ID that reminds of a proper name (<first> + <last>),=20
Usually revealing a valid email address (but munged, of course),
Occasionally posting on topic,
Abbreviating long text passages with links,
and voluminous descriptive prose with graphics,
Ignoring spam, and most idiot posts (except the really picturesque ones)
Etc.

So in view of all that, and considering that the offense you have=20
underscored could charitably be considered quite minor, I feel=20
that it could be argued that I am not altogether a bad person.
--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...
> ... So in view of all that, and considering that the offense you have
> underscored could charitably be considered quite minor, I feel
> that it could be argued that I am not altogether a bad person.

No argument here.

- Steve Brandt

> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...
> ... So in view of all that, and considering that the offense you have
> underscored could charitably be considered quite minor, I feel
> that it could be argued that I am not altogether a bad person.

No argument here.

- Steve Brandt

In article >,
"MBellerjeau" > wrote:

> My experience with Carl's is that I have never in the ~40 years that I have
> been baking bread had greater success. The flavor and loft of Carl's loaves
> are superb. The crumb and crust are to-die-for. It's the best $.74 I have
> ever spent.
> Michelle

One point which nobody has mentioned is temperature. Nominally it should
be 30 °C (86 °F for the americans).

Depending on how sauer you want the dough, you go a bit above or below.
A few degrees can make quite a difference. You will have to try. Each
starter is different since every time you feed, you contaminate the
starter with other strains of bacteria and you will eventually end up
with a starter which corresponds to one you started yourself, adapted to
the local strains hanging around.

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:23:32 -0400, Detlef Kretschmer
> wrote:

>Each
>starter is different since every time you feed, you contaminate the
>starter with other strains of bacteria and you will eventually end up
>with a starter which corresponds to one you started yourself, adapted to
>the local strains hanging around.

Howdy,

But many of us have several different starters side-by-side
and feed them with the same flour for years while preserving
their individual characteristics.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Detlef Kretschmer wrote:

>In article >,
> "MBellerjeau" > wrote:
>
>
>
>>My experience with Carl's is that I have never in the ~40 years that I have
>>been baking bread had greater success. The flavor and loft of Carl's loaves
>>are superb. The crumb and crust are to-die-for. It's the best $.74 I have
>>ever spent.
>>Michelle
>>
>>
>
>One point which nobody has mentioned is temperature. Nominally it should
>be 30 °C (86 °F for the americans).
>
>Depending on how sauer you want the dough, you go a bit above or below.
>A few degrees can make quite a difference. You will have to try. Each
>starter is different since every time you feed, you contaminate the
>starter with other strains of bacteria and you will eventually end up
>with a starter which corresponds to one you started yourself, adapted to
>the local strains hanging around.
>
>
That doesn't seem to be the case. While natural starters, as opposed to
ones created with laboratory pure strains, usually are a mix of several
yeasts and several strains of lactobacillus bacteria. However, there is
almost always one strain of yeast and lactobacillus bacteria that is the
dominant strain.

Adding flour will add other strains of each, as well as other random
micro-organisms. However, the dominant strains still have the
advantage, they are fresh, active, and alive, while the strains in the
flour aren't. If the conditions change dramatically, that can favor the
minority strains, however, this doesn't happen very often if the baker
knows what the're doing.

My own theory is that part of the flavor drift that is reported is due
to changes in what a starter is fed. Different brands, different kinds,
and different regions of flour are all different. When my mother moved
to the USA from Germany, it took her years to re-learn baking... the
flours were just SO different.

If you don't think the flour would make a difference in what the
microogranisms produce, consider any number of larger organisms that are
fed specific foods to produce specific flavors - the French force feed
geese special foods with special herbs to flavor the (poor) goose's
liver to make better pate, American hunters prize boars that have been
feeding on acorns. Many mothers can attest that their nursing children
become unhappy if the mothers eat the wrong foods.

Someone commented that if you like a bakeries sourdough bread, don't try
to steal their starter, just find out what kind of flour they use. I
think, even without starters changing microorganisms, that's the real
key to imitating your favorite breads.

Mike

On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:35:38 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Sun, 10 Apr 2005 18:23:32 -0400, Detlef Kretschmer
> wrote:
>
>>Each
>>starter is different since every time you feed, you contaminate the
>>starter with other strains of bacteria and you will eventually end up
>>with a starter which corresponds to one you started yourself, adapted to
>>the local strains hanging around.
>
>Howdy,
>
>But many of us have several different starters side-by-side
>and feed them with the same flour for years while preserving
>their individual characteristics.
>
I do. They have different smells and different rising capabilities and
I use them in different recipes.

I have a rye/wheat/corn/oat starter that I got from Jonathan White, a
white from the Bread Alone Bakery, Carl's, and one I think might still
be based on a KA strain I got in up in Vermont...and a few home grown.

I am very careful to prevent as much cross contamination as I can,
refreshing one at a time, separate utensils, etc, but I have no idea
how well that really works. I do know they are not all the same. Even
though they all live in my fridge & get exposed to my kitchen
periodically. For all I know, it's just a game I play & I am
hopelessly deluded as to their separate and distinct characteristics.

Boron

Detlef Kretschmer wrote:
>
> One point which nobody has mentioned is temperature. Nominally it should
> be 30 °C (86 °F for the americans).

Nonsense. Pioneers, Gold Rush miners, cattle drive cooks, and
others dating at least back to the time of the pyramid builders
used sourdough to raise their bread. Most just adapted to the
temperatures they lived with. People from the tropics to the
Artic tundra bake with sourdough and most do without any special
temperature control for the bread and rely on whatever they use
for the comfort of the cook. Anyway, 86F is too warm.
>
>
> starter is different since every time you feed, you contaminate the
> starter with other strains of bacteria and you will eventually end up
> with a starter which corresponds to one you started yourself, adapted to
> the local strains hanging around.

Nonsense. Many cultures that have been around for a time are
remarkably stable. If an established culture is kept well fed
and cared for, the chance of it being overtaken by a local
culture is slim. I have participated in comparisons where a
culture from a single source that was passed out to people over
several years in widely spaced geographic areas was compared by
several people to check for drift. No one was able to detect any
difference in the behavior of the culture samples from different
areas. This after spending years apart in different parts of the
country.

Cultures that are poorly maintained can be hijaced by new strains
of critters and genetic drift theory is hard to argue, but the
fact of the matter is that a stable cuture that is well cared for
is likely to remain stable.

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Detlef Kretschmer wrote:
>
> One point which nobody has mentioned is temperature. Nominally it should
> be 30 °C (86 °F for the americans).

Nonsense. Pioneers, Gold Rush miners, cattle drive cooks, and
others dating at least back to the time of the pyramid builders
used sourdough to raise their bread. Most just adapted to the
temperatures they lived with. People from the tropics to the
Artic tundra bake with sourdough and most do without any special
temperature control for the bread and rely on whatever they use
for the comfort of the cook. Anyway, 86F is too warm.
>
>
> starter is different since every time you feed, you contaminate the
> starter with other strains of bacteria and you will eventually end up
> with a starter which corresponds to one you started yourself, adapted to
> the local strains hanging around.

Nonsense. Many cultures that have been around for a time are
remarkably stable. If an established culture is kept well fed
and cared for, the chance of it being overtaken by a local
culture is slim. I have participated in comparisons where a
culture from a single source that was passed out to people over
several years in widely spaced geographic areas was compared by
several people to check for drift. No one was able to detect any
difference in the behavior of the culture samples from different
areas. This after spending years apart in different parts of the
country.

Cultures that are poorly maintained can be hijaced by new strains
of critters and genetic drift theory is hard to argue, but the
fact of the matter is that a stable cuture that is well cared for
is likely to remain stable.

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Detlef Kretschmer wrote:
>
> One point which nobody has mentioned is temperature. Nominally it should
> be 30 °C (86 °F for the americans).

Nonsense. Pioneers, Gold Rush miners, cattle drive cooks, and
others dating at least back to the time of the pyramid builders
used sourdough to raise their bread. Most just adapted to the
temperatures they lived with. People from the tropics to the
Artic tundra bake with sourdough and most do without any special
temperature control for the bread and rely on whatever they use
for the comfort of the cook. Anyway, 86F is too warm.
>
>
> starter is different since every time you feed, you contaminate the
> starter with other strains of bacteria and you will eventually end up
> with a starter which corresponds to one you started yourself, adapted to
> the local strains hanging around.

Nonsense. Many cultures that have been around for a time are
remarkably stable. If an established culture is kept well fed
and cared for, the chance of it being overtaken by a local
culture is slim. I have participated in comparisons where a
culture from a single source that was passed out to people over
several years in widely spaced geographic areas was compared by
several people to check for drift. No one was able to detect any
difference in the behavior of the culture samples from different
areas. This after spending years apart in different parts of the
country.

Cultures that are poorly maintained can be hijaced by new strains
of critters and genetic drift theory is hard to argue, but the
fact of the matter is that a stable cuture that is well cared for
is likely to remain stable.

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Detlef Kretschmer wrote:

> One point which nobody has mentioned is temperature. Nominally it shoul=
d=20
> be 30 =B0C (86 =B0F for the americans).

So that's why here in San Francisco we only eat sourdough about 6 times=20
a year. Mystery solved.

B/

"Detlef Kretschmer" > wrote in message
...
snip
> One point which nobody has mentioned is temperature. Nominally it should
> be 30 °C (86 °F for the americans).
What is supposed to be 86F? The temperature of the dough when finished
mixing? The proofing temperature? Room temperature? Starter storage
temperature? Water temperature?
Janet

Detlef Kretschmer wrote:

> One point which nobody has mentioned is temperature. Nominally it should
> be 30 °C (86 °F for the americans).
>

One aspect in responses to this post has not yet been covered:

Sourdough religion.

The phrase "temperature ... should", if it's generally applied across
all applications of Carl's starter, as it done here, is in violation to
the spirit of the original sourdough religion.

It's a very common tactic of demagogues to postulate an arbitrary rule
and then, after gathering a numerous followship of less independent
individuals (educated in so-called followship-trainings often under the
threat of eternal doom and suffering) be able to claim every violation
of this rule to be blasphemous with all the consequences. Earlier it was
stoning, burning, hanging, quartering, boiling in hot oil. Nowadays the
applied tactics are less rude, nevertheless can have tremendous impact,
often ruining the life of targeted individuals.

Besides the fate of targeted individuals, the overall impact of those
pseudo rules is simply less fun (outside from sourdough, just think of
all the abstinence rules).

To prevent this from happening, it is hereby stated:

Usage of widely different temperatures with Carl's sourdough is
encouraged, be it in single- or multi-stage processes or just for the
heck of it. From freezing to scalding, go for it and play!

**** those temperature nitpickers!


Samartha

Samartha Deva wrote:
> Detlef Kretschmer wrote:
>
>> One point which nobody has mentioned is temperature. Nominally it
>> should be 30 °C (86 °F for the americans).
>>
>
> One aspect in responses to this post has not yet been covered:
>
> Sourdough religion.
>
> The phrase "temperature ... should", if it's generally applied across
> all applications of Carl's starter, as it done here, is in violation to
> the spirit of the original sourdough religion.
>
> It's a very common tactic of demagogues to postulate an arbitrary rule
> and then, after gathering a numerous followship of less independent
> individuals (educated in so-called followship-trainings often under the
> threat of eternal doom and suffering) be able to claim every violation
> of this rule to be blasphemous with all the consequences. Earlier it was
> stoning, burning, hanging, quartering, boiling in hot oil. Nowadays the
> applied tactics are less rude, nevertheless can have tremendous impact,
> often ruining the life of targeted individuals.
>
> Besides the fate of targeted individuals, the overall impact of those
> pseudo rules is simply less fun (outside from sourdough, just think of
> all the abstinence rules).
>
> To prevent this from happening, it is hereby stated:
>
> Usage of widely different temperatures with Carl's sourdough is
> encouraged, be it in single- or multi-stage processes or just for the
> heck of it. From freezing to scalding, go for it and play!
>
> **** those temperature nitpickers!
>
>
> Samartha
can i get an amen? A-A-A-AMEN!!

Dan w

"doughwizard" > wrote in
oups.com:

> This is why I no longer want to use the carl starter. I don't care so
> much about the way the loaf looks but do care about flavor and its not
> there with that starter which was why I posted in the first place.
> Everyone I know devours my yeast bread, but when I made the loaves
> people were like 'this is sourdough it doesn't taste like it." It was
> good for regular bread, but it didn't have any flavor at all. And
> obviously, all flavor in bread comes from a starter OR yeast...AND I
> DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH A BUNCH OF SCIENCE MUMBO-JUMBO I JUST WANT
> SOURDOUGH BREAD IS THAT SO HARD. One of the links I looked at here had
> some kind of doctor dissertation or WHATEVER! Come on people it's bread
> in your kitchen not a labratory!
>

Hey, Bushbaby:

I don't know what you're talking about. I bake good bread from Carl's
starter, and it IS sourdough bread.

A couple of days ago, I started the three-phase sponge with carl's
starter. In making the sponge, on phase 1 I added pureed raw potato and
a little honey. It was sloppy, but 3 hours later I added another whole
raw potato, rye flour, and King Arthur all-purpose flour. That night,
about 10 hours later, I added KA all-purpose flour. Next morning, about
10 hours later, I had a nice bubbly sponge that had risen and fallen. I
ended up with nearly two cups of sponge, and poured the excess back into
my starter jar for the fridge.

Then I used the proportions 5x the sponge weight in flour, 2% sea salt, a
few pinches of vitamin C (ascorbic acid) powder, and just under 3x the
sponge weight in water. I am careful with water becomes sometimes my
sponge is a little sloppy, and the extra water in it can make the dough
just a little too soft at 3x.

Here are some measurement conversions that I use:

Measure Flour (g) Water (g) Kosher or SeaSalt (g)
Teaspoon 3.125 4.94 5.52
Tablespoon 9.375 14.8 16.56
Cup 150 237.0 265

For this batch I used 300g starter, 1500g flour, 2Tbsp SeaSalt, 1/2
teaspoon ascorbic acid, and 900g Reverse Osmosis water.

After a quick stir in the mixer to get the ingredients wet, I let it sit
covered for 20 minutes, then kneaded it slowly (My Sunbeam Mixmaster has
a kneading setting and that's what I used) for 10 minutes. The dough was
a little slacker than I like, but I did not add flour to it.

I oiled a plastic grocery bag and plopped the dough in it and set it in
my oven with the light on. This gets the oven to 105 - 110 degrees if I
leave it in too long, so I turned the light off after hour, The bacteria
in the dough grow best at 89 to 92 degrees, warmer than my kitchen, so I
try not to let it get too cool or too hot.

2 1/2 hours later, I removed the dough from the now-full bag, stretched
and pressed it gently and sparsely with finger tips, and folded it in
three sections. I did this three times. In pressing with finger tips, I
stretch the dough out, aim the fingers of both hands downward, and gently
lower them into the dough, repeating this over the surface of the dough 5
or 6 times. That way I am not flattening the dough. The reason for this
is not to get rid of bubbles in the dough, but rather to distribute the
bubbles so there won't be any gigantic pockets in the dough. I then cover
it and let it sit covered for 10 minutes.

If my dough is slack, as it was in this case, I form it into loaves in
bread pans, making the pan 1/2 to 2/3 full, and I stretch it so it fits
into the corners somewhat (to prevent the loaf from being too round on
top. Otherwise, I form it into loaves by setting the gob on the
unfloured bread board, and rolling it clockwise between my palms. As I
roll, I press my hands downward, and this pulls the top of the dough
tight as it tucks the sides under the bottom. When it is nice and tight,
I turn it over and pinch the wrinkles into a tight seam.

Now I cover the loaves with oiled plastic wrap and put them back in the
warm oven.

An hour later, I remove them from the oven to the counter top and turn on
the oven heat. Then I cut the slices on top of the bread. If pan
loaves, I'll slice once deeply along the top of the loaf

I put a pan of boiling water on the bottom shelf of the oven and spritz
the oven every 3 or 4 minutes during the first 10 minutes in order to
retard the hardening of the crust in the early minutes. The steam will
help to soften the bread, and that allows the bread to spring even higher
in the oven without breaking the crust along the sides. This is
especially important when making loaf breads because the rising will
crack the whole top upward if the crust is too hard.

I don't think it necessary to pre-heat an oven unless you have large oven
stones, and then it is important to pre-heat it. It takes large stones
up to an hour to absorb available heat, and it gives this heat back
during the baking process when you're opening the door. I pre-heat mine
at least half an hour at the hottest possible temperature. My oven will
not get as hot as 550 degrees, and it's lucky if it ever gets to 500. I
think 550 is about as hot as you'd want to preheat the oven.

After letting the bread rise in the pan 1/2 hour, I put it in the oven.
There is rising power left in the dough, so the loaves will spring
higher, breaking the dough along the lines cut into them.

If I let it rise an additional 1/2 to 1 hour before baking, it's rising
power will be depleted, and it will not rise in the oven.

I let normal 1-pound loaves bake at least 45 minutes, and 2-pound loaves
over an hour. I have found letting the bread's internal temperature rise
to 190F yields a moist loaf, but I like 205F better because the loaves
are nicely done and not over-moist,plus the crust is nice and thick and
crunchy with longer cooking.. I do not let the temperature pass 210,
because at 212, the moisture in it will leave quickly, and the loaf will
end up being too dry.

In general, I like to brush the tops of my loaves with milk or with an
egg-milk wash after 15 to 20 minutes of baking. This makes the crust
shiny, and I like that.

The result of this particular baking episode is that my bread has
reasonable sized crumb (but not too large), and it is quite chewy. It
does not taste sour, but it does have a combined aroma and taste that are
a little, but not much, tangy. It is delicious.



Possibly I can get more of a natural sour taste by letting the dough
"cure" in the refrigerator, but from my reading I'll guess cold
temperatures tend to suppress the growth of lactobacillus. Nevertheless,
maybe I can let it go through the first rise in the refrigerator over 4
to 6 hours

Next time I make bread,I'm buying some live yogurt culture to go into
last phase of sponge, and make triple the quantity of sponge. Then I'll
add an equal weight of flour and necessary water to make the dough, and
let the dough rise in the oven with the light on all the time. This will
provide the right temperature for the lactobacillus in yogurt to grow,
and that should definitely give some tanginess taste to the bread.