I usually bake bread with poolish starters. I finally built up the courage
to try to grow my own sourdough starter using advice from Mike Avery's web
site - 3/8 cup organic rye to 1/4 cup water. I left this in my oven with
the light turned on overnight and discovered that instead of being the
recommended 85 degrees, my oven was 100 degrees but I had small bubbles
anyway so I hadn't killed it.

In any event I wasn't sure if I should see ACTIVE bubbles (as I frequently
do with my poolishes) or just small "stay-in-one-place" kind of bubbles, so
I stirred the mixture, opened the oven door a crack and moved the starter
towards the side of the oven away from the light bulb. The temperature in
the oven dropped to 80 degrees & I left it alone some more.

At 5:30 PM it had grown quite a lot, so I fed it with another 3/8 cup
organic rye to 1/4 cup water and left it on the counter (ambient temp.
closer to 70 degrees) hoping to slow it down a bit. (In the meantime I read
Rose Levy Berenbaum's section on sourdough cultures and she recommended
cooler temperatures.) Like a nervous mother I checked the mixture again at
7:30 and discovered that not only were the small bubbles all back - but the
mixture had doubled in bulk AFTER I had fed it!!!

According to everything I read, I thought that when the culture doubles in
3 - 6 hours it's ready to bake with. But then again, I thought it was
supposed to take 3 - 5 days to reach this point!

What do I do NOW?? Please help!

Hobbit-in-Wonderland

Snowleopard wrote:

>According to everything I read, I thought that when the culture doubles in
>3 - 6 hours it's ready to bake with. But then again, I thought it was
>supposed to take 3 - 5 days to reach this point!
>
>What do I do NOW?? Please help!
>
>
>
>
How long it takes depends on lots of things. Quite often a starter will
get to that point in a few days. However, if I say, "your starter will
be ready to use in 2 days" on the web site, I'll get even more questions
about "why doesn't my starter work?" So, I say 3 - 5 days so people
will be a bit patient.

What to do? Bake with it!

Mike

Snowleopard wrote:

>According to everything I read, I thought that when the culture doubles in
>3 - 6 hours it's ready to bake with. But then again, I thought it was
>supposed to take 3 - 5 days to reach this point!
>
>What do I do NOW?? Please help!
>
>
>
>
How long it takes depends on lots of things. Quite often a starter will
get to that point in a few days. However, if I say, "your starter will
be ready to use in 2 days" on the web site, I'll get even more questions
about "why doesn't my starter work?" So, I say 3 - 5 days so people
will be a bit patient.

What to do? Bake with it!

Mike

Hey Mike! My hero! - I had emailed you re. your 60-page pdf. but didn't
get an answer. The question remains: it's 8:41 PM & I don't want to bake
until the morning...can I just leave my starter on the counter & use it
tomorrow??

This is pretty amazing stuff!

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Avery" >
Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
Sent: Thursday, April 07, 2005 8:37 PM
Subject: Newbie Needs Advice on Over-Active Sourdough Starter!


> Snowleopard wrote:
>
>>According to everything I read, I thought that when the culture doubles in
>>3 - 6 hours it's ready to bake with. But then again, I thought it was
>>supposed to take 3 - 5 days to reach this point!
>>
>>What do I do NOW?? Please help!
>>
>>
>>
> How long it takes depends on lots of things. Quite often a starter will
> get to that point in a few days. However, if I say, "your starter will be
> ready to use in 2 days" on the web site, I'll get even more questions
> about "why doesn't my starter work?" So, I say 3 - 5 days so people will
> be a bit patient.
>
> What to do? Bake with it!
>
> Mike
>
>

Can I just leave it on the counter & bake with it in the morning??

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message
news:mailman.38.1112920635.218.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...
> Snowleopard wrote:
>
>>According to everything I read, I thought that when the culture doubles in
>>3 - 6 hours it's ready to bake with. But then again, I thought it was
>>supposed to take 3 - 5 days to reach this point!
>>
>>What do I do NOW?? Please help!
>>
>>
>>
> How long it takes depends on lots of things. Quite often a starter will
> get to that point in a few days. However, if I say, "your starter will be
> ready to use in 2 days" on the web site, I'll get even more questions
> about "why doesn't my starter work?" So, I say 3 - 5 days so people will
> be a bit patient.
>
> What to do? Bake with it!
>
> Mike
>
>

Can I just leave it on the counter & bake with it in the morning??

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message
news:mailman.38.1112920635.218.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...
> Snowleopard wrote:
>
>>According to everything I read, I thought that when the culture doubles in
>>3 - 6 hours it's ready to bake with. But then again, I thought it was
>>supposed to take 3 - 5 days to reach this point!
>>
>>What do I do NOW?? Please help!
>>
>>
>>
> How long it takes depends on lots of things. Quite often a starter will
> get to that point in a few days. However, if I say, "your starter will be
> ready to use in 2 days" on the web site, I'll get even more questions
> about "why doesn't my starter work?" So, I say 3 - 5 days so people will
> be a bit patient.
>
> What to do? Bake with it!
>
> Mike
>
>

Snowleopard wrote:

>Can I just leave it on the counter & bake with it in the morning??
>
>

I'd feed it in the evening before you retire. Then use it fairly early
in the morning. A starter at room temperature should be fed twice a
day, enough to double it's mass, and the food should be the same
hydration level as your starter. I've gotten emails from people who
feed a quart of starter a cup of water and a tablespoon of flour, and
they wonder why the starter isn't thriving.

Good luck,
Mike

Snowleopard wrote:

>Can I just leave it on the counter & bake with it in the morning??
>
>

I'd feed it in the evening before you retire. Then use it fairly early
in the morning. A starter at room temperature should be fed twice a
day, enough to double it's mass, and the food should be the same
hydration level as your starter. I've gotten emails from people who
feed a quart of starter a cup of water and a tablespoon of flour, and
they wonder why the starter isn't thriving.

Good luck,
Mike

Mike Avery wrote:
....
> early in the morning. A starter at room temperature should be fed
> twice a day, enough to double it's mass, and the food should be the
Twice/day? Wow! I must be abusing mine. They might get fed every couple
of days or so...if and when I think about it...


Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

Mike Avery wrote:
....
> early in the morning. A starter at room temperature should be fed
> twice a day, enough to double it's mass, and the food should be the
Twice/day? Wow! I must be abusing mine. They might get fed every couple
of days or so...if and when I think about it...


Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

Dusty wrote:

>Mike Avery wrote:
>...
>
>
>>early in the morning. A starter at room temperature should be fed
>>twice a day, enough to double it's mass, and the food should be the
>>
>>
>Twice/day? Wow! I must be abusing mine. They might get fed every couple
>of days or so...if and when I think about it...
>
>
>
Maybe that's why you think chlorinated water slows your starters... when
it's actually starvation.

Yeah. The acidity climbs very high in a starter that is not fed. I
think Samartha has some figures on that that he might share. The
bacteria side of the symbiosis gains in strength, the yeast weaken. And
if you go much longer, the bacteria weaken too.

It takes severe dilution and several feedings to recover from this.
Dilution to reduce the acidity, several feedings to get the yeast and
bacteria back on their feet.

Some members of the bread baker's guild worked on getting their feedings
down to once a day. And they weren't happy with the results. You could
use a very low hydration starter, but that's hard to work with. Lower
hydration starters work more slowly.

Twice a day is pretty much the minimum I'd recommend for a starter at
room temperature. And I'd double it with each feeding.

This is why most of us refrigerate starters.... we don't want to discard
that much starter or wind up with a swimming pool full of starter.
(It's not that long to the swimming pool stage. A 30 x 20 x 8 foot pool
has 36,000 gallons of water. If you start with a cup of starter and
double twice a day without discarding, it's only 19 feedings to 32,768
gallons. 9 1/2 days.)

Mike

Dusty wrote:

>Mike Avery wrote:
>...
>
>
>>early in the morning. A starter at room temperature should be fed
>>twice a day, enough to double it's mass, and the food should be the
>>
>>
>Twice/day? Wow! I must be abusing mine. They might get fed every couple
>of days or so...if and when I think about it...
>
>
>
Maybe that's why you think chlorinated water slows your starters... when
it's actually starvation.

Yeah. The acidity climbs very high in a starter that is not fed. I
think Samartha has some figures on that that he might share. The
bacteria side of the symbiosis gains in strength, the yeast weaken. And
if you go much longer, the bacteria weaken too.

It takes severe dilution and several feedings to recover from this.
Dilution to reduce the acidity, several feedings to get the yeast and
bacteria back on their feet.

Some members of the bread baker's guild worked on getting their feedings
down to once a day. And they weren't happy with the results. You could
use a very low hydration starter, but that's hard to work with. Lower
hydration starters work more slowly.

Twice a day is pretty much the minimum I'd recommend for a starter at
room temperature. And I'd double it with each feeding.

This is why most of us refrigerate starters.... we don't want to discard
that much starter or wind up with a swimming pool full of starter.
(It's not that long to the swimming pool stage. A 30 x 20 x 8 foot pool
has 36,000 gallons of water. If you start with a cup of starter and
double twice a day without discarding, it's only 19 feedings to 32,768
gallons. 9 1/2 days.)

Mike

Mike Avery wrote:
....
>> Twice/day? Wow! I must be abusing mine. They might get fed every
>> couple of days or so...if and when I think about it...
....
> Maybe that's why you think chlorinated water slows your starters...
> when it's actually starvation.
Donno...I've tried it many ways, and couldn't really see much difference.
They always seem to work well. Besides, with three liter containers,
they're to many to put in the fridge. I'd have to toss out all the beer!

One interesting note, though. My original starter was from a Dr. in Canada,
"A". He said it was a "mutt" of sorts. A mixture of whatever stuff he had
around once-upon-a-time. My next starter came from Brian, "B". He tells me
it's a San Francisco SD. And my most recent acquisition was a Carl's, "C".

I've been fooling with 'em doing comparison bake-offs. The "A" starter is
the slowest growing of them all. It makes a very mild bread, and has the
least loft. But it's reliable and sturdy, and doesn't seem to be bothered
by my careless handling.

Brian's starter, has the best "sour" smell, and ends up with the best sour
taste (with my methods and timing). It's about 80% more active than "A",
and about 20% less active than "C" (via a highly calibrated Mark IV
eyeball).

The Carl's starter has a slightly sweet nose to the aroma of it fermenting.
It is, by a small margin, faster and makes more bubbles; but doesn't rise
any higher or faster in dough that the "B" starter (at least not that I'd
notice sans NASA quality testing gear). But it has less overall sour taste.
So, I'm gonna dry three samples each of A & C, and put 'em in the freezer.

Then maybe I'll have some room in the fridge for my "B" team, and I can
start cycling 'em instead of abusing 'em...


Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

Mike Avery wrote:
....
>> Twice/day? Wow! I must be abusing mine. They might get fed every
>> couple of days or so...if and when I think about it...
....
> Maybe that's why you think chlorinated water slows your starters...
> when it's actually starvation.
Donno...I've tried it many ways, and couldn't really see much difference.
They always seem to work well. Besides, with three liter containers,
they're to many to put in the fridge. I'd have to toss out all the beer!

One interesting note, though. My original starter was from a Dr. in Canada,
"A". He said it was a "mutt" of sorts. A mixture of whatever stuff he had
around once-upon-a-time. My next starter came from Brian, "B". He tells me
it's a San Francisco SD. And my most recent acquisition was a Carl's, "C".

I've been fooling with 'em doing comparison bake-offs. The "A" starter is
the slowest growing of them all. It makes a very mild bread, and has the
least loft. But it's reliable and sturdy, and doesn't seem to be bothered
by my careless handling.

Brian's starter, has the best "sour" smell, and ends up with the best sour
taste (with my methods and timing). It's about 80% more active than "A",
and about 20% less active than "C" (via a highly calibrated Mark IV
eyeball).

The Carl's starter has a slightly sweet nose to the aroma of it fermenting.
It is, by a small margin, faster and makes more bubbles; but doesn't rise
any higher or faster in dough that the "B" starter (at least not that I'd
notice sans NASA quality testing gear). But it has less overall sour taste.
So, I'm gonna dry three samples each of A & C, and put 'em in the freezer.

Then maybe I'll have some room in the fridge for my "B" team, and I can
start cycling 'em instead of abusing 'em...


Dusty
--
Remove STORE to reply

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 15:34:58 -0700, "Dusty"
> wrote:

>Besides, with three liter containers,
>they're to many to put in the fridge

Howdy,

There is no need to save your starters in such a quantity.

I keep mine in two-ounce plastic screw-top jars.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Dusty wrote:

> One interesting note, though. My original starter was from a Dr. in Canada,
> "A". He said it was a "mutt" of sorts. A mixture of whatever stuff he had
> around once-upon-a-time. My next starter came from Brian, "B". He tells me
> it's a San Francisco SD.

It most certainly is. I'm 6 blocks from the geographic center of the
city, this is the closest mapped address: i'm on that unnamed street
between the red star and the park.
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ed...w=1&name=&qty=

B/

Dusty wrote:

> One interesting note, though. My original starter was from a Dr. in Canada,
> "A". He said it was a "mutt" of sorts. A mixture of whatever stuff he had
> around once-upon-a-time. My next starter came from Brian, "B". He tells me
> it's a San Francisco SD.

It most certainly is. I'm 6 blocks from the geographic center of the
city, this is the closest mapped address: i'm on that unnamed street
between the red star and the park.
http://maps.yahoo.com/maps_result?ed...w=1&name=&qty=

B/

Rainy wrote:

> Hey Mike! My hero! - I had emailed you re. your 60-page pdf. but
> didn't get an answer. The question remains: it's 8:41 PM & I don't
> want to bake until the morning...can I just leave my starter on the
> counter & use it tomorrow??
>
> This is pretty amazing stuff!

Oops... I just found this sitting in a dead letter area.... and I am a
bit behind on most of my email.. .there are about 168 unanswered emails
in my inbox...

Anyway... I hope you got my note in the newsgroup yesterday. I'd be
reluctant to leave the starter out overnight without feeding it. I'd
feed it shortly before I retired and then use it shortly after arising.

Hope that helps,
Mike

>Some members of the bread baker's guild worked on getting their
feedings
>down to once a day. And they weren't happy with the results. You
could
>use a very low hydration starter, but that's hard to work with. Lower

>hydration starters work more slowly.

It's a unfortunate to know that
In some bakeries I am connected they use liquid starters: 100:105 to
100:125/ flour: water ratio but it was just feed once a day.
Presumably those bakers who failed in this method is that they are
kept at room temperature ,all the time and just refreshed their starter
in the same way as the normally twice or even thrice feed cultures,
without considering the reaction rate that varies with temperature.
As common sense; if you only want to feed it once then be sure to slow
down its reaction rate by keeping it most of the time under
refrigeration once its fed.

Also some microbes are really fast fermenting that they easily deplete
their nutrients. You have to take that also in consideration also.
That is why they failed.

Usually...
If the starter is always kept at ambient and you only want to refresh
it once every 24 hours that would led to the microbes scrounging for
food from an empty cupboard<g>.
Another it should be occasionally aerated.
Yes, the microbes are supposed to exist in anaerobic state but
introduction of air seems to invigorate them, that is why mechanized
starter equipment had some stirring paddle that is run for a few
minutes at a certain time of the day for the same reason; in particular
to redistribute the nutrients and to partially aerate it.
Something similar to knockdown in normal bakers yeast leavened
dough.<g>.
Roy
..