i don't see a hydration problem here necessarily. it is a possibility
though.

try modifying your kneading technique: do what you're doing, but instead of
letting the dough fall and stretch, you pick it up and slam it into the
counter. done right, this makes the dough extend 1-3 feet into a string
across the counter. fold it up, turn, repeat. kind of a fun kneading
technique for small batches of dough.

shaping the loaves properly is really a key step, and one that's hard to
learn from a book. you can have someone show you how to do it, but you can
also discover how to do it right through a lot of trial and error. this is
one of the areas where the pros have a real advantage. someone shaping
hundreds of loaves a day is just going to be better at it than you are.
mike's advice is solid.

i wouldn't mess with the hydration of your dough, or at the very least would
only change one thing at a time. if it was me, i'd start with proof time
and oven temperature first.

hope this helps.


"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message
news:rbsce.60$%44.14@lakeread06...
>
> "Mike Avery" > wrote in message > >
>> >
>> >
>> Dick tersely hit the highlights for you. I've made similar breads, both
>> yeasted and sourdough.
>>
>> Too high a hydration with too poor gluten development would be the first
>> two culprits. I'd look into reducing the hydration somewhat. I'd also
>> look into kneading a bit longer and perhaps doing some "stretch and
>> folds" before forming the loaves.
>>
>> The next culprit would be too long a rise. The bread looks like it
>> reached a peak and then collapsed.
>>
>> One of the gotchas's about baking is there is a point where the dough
>> has to go into the oven. It's the baker's task to make sure the oven is
>> ready, that the baker is ready, and at the golden moment, the baker
>> gently slides the dough into the oven. If the dough isn't baked, it
>> will continue to rise. And if it rises too far, it will collapse.
>> Either before, when, or after it is put into the oven.
>>
>> The higher the hydration in a dough or starter, the more quickly things
>> happen. A somewhat dryer dough will hold it's peak rise somewhat longer
>> than a wetter dough. All of this has to also be seen in the overall
>> context of Beatrice Ojakangas' comment that dough would rather be a bit
>> too wet than a bit too dry. However, when you get past a bit in either
>> direction, you are asking for trouble.
>>
>> Mike
>>
> With my freeform baking, I had been using more stretch and folds, the very
> wet dough gaining firmness with each step. By the time it was divided and
> shaped and formed it was pretty stable and keeping its shape. I really
> didn't know what was necessary with baking in a pan, I kind of thought all
> the steps were to help keep the boule from spreading and turning into a
> pancake like my first 10 or 20 loaves. So I didn't spend so much time
> preparing the dough.
>
> Also I have never spent all that much time kneading the wet stick dough, I
> have been using the knead technique I got from that artisan bread DVD,
> where
> you pick up the wet dough, let it stretch and fall back onto the counter
> while still holding some in your hand, fold it over, turn it, pick it up
> again, and so on for about 5 minutes until it gets a smooth outer surface,
> then let it rise a bit before doing stretch and folds. This has worked
> fine
> for me until now, but in the hindsight suddenly apparent in writing this
> down, this probably should have been modified somehow if I wasn't going to
> do all the stretch and folds.
>
> If I do all the stretch and folds and form and shape the dough better, it
> will of coarse be firmer when I put it in the pans, so in that case do you
> still suggest a dryer dough?
>
> hutchndi
>
>