My bubbles thread got deleted, but I just put up a picture of my problem
last night, here it is again...

http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm

The pictured slice shows a few of the smaller bubbles up under the crust at
the top, (we ate the bigger ones already) and my and there is a run through
of what I am doing, perhaps this might help somebody pinpoint my problem...

hutchndi

HUTCHNDI wrote:

>My bubbles thread got deleted, but I just put up a picture of my problem
>last night, here it is again...
>
>http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
>The pictured slice shows a few of the smaller bubbles up under the crust at
>the top, (we ate the bigger ones already) and my and there is a run through
>of what I am doing, perhaps this might help somebody pinpoint my problem...
>
>
>
Dick tersely hit the highlights for you. I've made similar breads, both
yeasted and sourdough.

Too high a hydration with too poor gluten development would be the first
two culprits. I'd look into reducing the hydration somewhat. I'd also
look into kneading a bit longer and perhaps doing some "stretch and
folds" before forming the loaves.

The next culprit would be too long a rise. The bread looks like it
reached a peak and then collapsed.

One of the gotchas's about baking is there is a point where the dough
has to go into the oven. It's the baker's task to make sure the oven is
ready, that the baker is ready, and at the golden moment, the baker
gently slides the dough into the oven. If the dough isn't baked, it
will continue to rise. And if it rises too far, it will collapse.
Either before, when, or after it is put into the oven.

The higher the hydration in a dough or starter, the more quickly things
happen. A somewhat dryer dough will hold it's peak rise somewhat longer
than a wetter dough. All of this has to also be seen in the overall
context of Beatrice Ojakangas' comment that dough would rather be a bit
too wet than a bit too dry. However, when you get past a bit in either
direction, you are asking for trouble.

Mike

HUTCHNDI wrote:

>My bubbles thread got deleted, but I just put up a picture of my problem
>last night, here it is again...
>
>http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
>The pictured slice shows a few of the smaller bubbles up under the crust at
>the top, (we ate the bigger ones already) and my and there is a run through
>of what I am doing, perhaps this might help somebody pinpoint my problem...
>
>
>
Dick tersely hit the highlights for you. I've made similar breads, both
yeasted and sourdough.

Too high a hydration with too poor gluten development would be the first
two culprits. I'd look into reducing the hydration somewhat. I'd also
look into kneading a bit longer and perhaps doing some "stretch and
folds" before forming the loaves.

The next culprit would be too long a rise. The bread looks like it
reached a peak and then collapsed.

One of the gotchas's about baking is there is a point where the dough
has to go into the oven. It's the baker's task to make sure the oven is
ready, that the baker is ready, and at the golden moment, the baker
gently slides the dough into the oven. If the dough isn't baked, it
will continue to rise. And if it rises too far, it will collapse.
Either before, when, or after it is put into the oven.

The higher the hydration in a dough or starter, the more quickly things
happen. A somewhat dryer dough will hold it's peak rise somewhat longer
than a wetter dough. All of this has to also be seen in the overall
context of Beatrice Ojakangas' comment that dough would rather be a bit
too wet than a bit too dry. However, when you get past a bit in either
direction, you are asking for trouble.

Mike

HUTCHNDI wrote:
> My bubbles thread got deleted, but I just put up a picture of my problem
> last night, here it is again...
>
> http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
> The pictured slice shows a few of the smaller bubbles up under the crust at
> the top, (we ate the bigger ones already) and my and there is a run through
> of what I am doing, perhaps this might help somebody pinpoint my problem...
>
> hutchndi
>
>
BTW your thread is not deleted where I read it...


The german pictures
http://www.cafeerner.de/Produkte/Bro...otfehler-1.jpg
show flying crust that is caused by high amylase activity - which can´t
be the case with your bread. Amylase is stopped by high acidity - that´s
why we use it for rye bread. Rye has so much amylase in it that the
dough could hardly hold any gas bubbles after the amylase has split up
all the starch.

Your bread looks as if the gluten had been damaged by overproofing.
Either try to add some gluten to your dough by changing to high gluten
flour or by adding it straight to your formula - or reduce the time of
proofing.

Just my two cents worth.

Joschi
--
Address to mail me:
Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:

non_tox ::ATE:: web :OG:: de

HUTCHNDI wrote:
> My bubbles thread got deleted, but I just put up a picture of my problem
> last night, here it is again...
>
> http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
> The pictured slice shows a few of the smaller bubbles up under the crust at
> the top, (we ate the bigger ones already) and my and there is a run through
> of what I am doing, perhaps this might help somebody pinpoint my problem...
>
> hutchndi
>
>
BTW your thread is not deleted where I read it...


The german pictures
http://www.cafeerner.de/Produkte/Bro...otfehler-1.jpg
show flying crust that is caused by high amylase activity - which can´t
be the case with your bread. Amylase is stopped by high acidity - that´s
why we use it for rye bread. Rye has so much amylase in it that the
dough could hardly hold any gas bubbles after the amylase has split up
all the starch.

Your bread looks as if the gluten had been damaged by overproofing.
Either try to add some gluten to your dough by changing to high gluten
flour or by adding it straight to your formula - or reduce the time of
proofing.

Just my two cents worth.

Joschi
--
Address to mail me:
Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:

non_tox ::ATE:: web :OG:: de

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message > >
> >
> >
> Dick tersely hit the highlights for you. I've made similar breads, both
> yeasted and sourdough.
>
> Too high a hydration with too poor gluten development would be the first
> two culprits. I'd look into reducing the hydration somewhat. I'd also
> look into kneading a bit longer and perhaps doing some "stretch and
> folds" before forming the loaves.
>
> The next culprit would be too long a rise. The bread looks like it
> reached a peak and then collapsed.
>
> One of the gotchas's about baking is there is a point where the dough
> has to go into the oven. It's the baker's task to make sure the oven is
> ready, that the baker is ready, and at the golden moment, the baker
> gently slides the dough into the oven. If the dough isn't baked, it
> will continue to rise. And if it rises too far, it will collapse.
> Either before, when, or after it is put into the oven.
>
> The higher the hydration in a dough or starter, the more quickly things
> happen. A somewhat dryer dough will hold it's peak rise somewhat longer
> than a wetter dough. All of this has to also be seen in the overall
> context of Beatrice Ojakangas' comment that dough would rather be a bit
> too wet than a bit too dry. However, when you get past a bit in either
> direction, you are asking for trouble.
>
> Mike
>
With my freeform baking, I had been using more stretch and folds, the very
wet dough gaining firmness with each step. By the time it was divided and
shaped and formed it was pretty stable and keeping its shape. I really
didn't know what was necessary with baking in a pan, I kind of thought all
the steps were to help keep the boule from spreading and turning into a
pancake like my first 10 or 20 loaves. So I didn't spend so much time
preparing the dough.

Also I have never spent all that much time kneading the wet stick dough, I
have been using the knead technique I got from that artisan bread DVD, where
you pick up the wet dough, let it stretch and fall back onto the counter
while still holding some in your hand, fold it over, turn it, pick it up
again, and so on for about 5 minutes until it gets a smooth outer surface,
then let it rise a bit before doing stretch and folds. This has worked fine
for me until now, but in the hindsight suddenly apparent in writing this
down, this probably should have been modified somehow if I wasn't going to
do all the stretch and folds.

If I do all the stretch and folds and form and shape the dough better, it
will of coarse be firmer when I put it in the pans, so in that case do you
still suggest a dryer dough?

hutchndi

at first glance i'd say it looks over-proofed (you let it rise too long). i
don't like the cold oven idea at all. is there some logic behind that that
i don't know? (not meant to be antagonistic... a serious question.) i
could definately see a cold oven causing some expansion, but not having
enough heat to set the dough to hold the structure.

just a guess though....

"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message
news:t_qce.58$%44.52@lakeread06...
> My bubbles thread got deleted, but I just put up a picture of my problem
> last night, here it is again...
>
> http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
> The pictured slice shows a few of the smaller bubbles up under the crust
> at
> the top, (we ate the bigger ones already) and my and there is a run
> through
> of what I am doing, perhaps this might help somebody pinpoint my
> problem...
>
> hutchndi
>
>

at first glance i'd say it looks over-proofed (you let it rise too long). i
don't like the cold oven idea at all. is there some logic behind that that
i don't know? (not meant to be antagonistic... a serious question.) i
could definately see a cold oven causing some expansion, but not having
enough heat to set the dough to hold the structure.

just a guess though....

"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message
news:t_qce.58$%44.52@lakeread06...
> My bubbles thread got deleted, but I just put up a picture of my problem
> last night, here it is again...
>
> http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
> The pictured slice shows a few of the smaller bubbles up under the crust
> at
> the top, (we ate the bigger ones already) and my and there is a run
> through
> of what I am doing, perhaps this might help somebody pinpoint my
> problem...
>
> hutchndi
>
>

i don't see a hydration problem here necessarily. it is a possibility
though.

try modifying your kneading technique: do what you're doing, but instead of
letting the dough fall and stretch, you pick it up and slam it into the
counter. done right, this makes the dough extend 1-3 feet into a string
across the counter. fold it up, turn, repeat. kind of a fun kneading
technique for small batches of dough.

shaping the loaves properly is really a key step, and one that's hard to
learn from a book. you can have someone show you how to do it, but you can
also discover how to do it right through a lot of trial and error. this is
one of the areas where the pros have a real advantage. someone shaping
hundreds of loaves a day is just going to be better at it than you are.
mike's advice is solid.

i wouldn't mess with the hydration of your dough, or at the very least would
only change one thing at a time. if it was me, i'd start with proof time
and oven temperature first.

hope this helps.


"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message
news:rbsce.60$%44.14@lakeread06...
>
> "Mike Avery" > wrote in message > >
>> >
>> >
>> Dick tersely hit the highlights for you. I've made similar breads, both
>> yeasted and sourdough.
>>
>> Too high a hydration with too poor gluten development would be the first
>> two culprits. I'd look into reducing the hydration somewhat. I'd also
>> look into kneading a bit longer and perhaps doing some "stretch and
>> folds" before forming the loaves.
>>
>> The next culprit would be too long a rise. The bread looks like it
>> reached a peak and then collapsed.
>>
>> One of the gotchas's about baking is there is a point where the dough
>> has to go into the oven. It's the baker's task to make sure the oven is
>> ready, that the baker is ready, and at the golden moment, the baker
>> gently slides the dough into the oven. If the dough isn't baked, it
>> will continue to rise. And if it rises too far, it will collapse.
>> Either before, when, or after it is put into the oven.
>>
>> The higher the hydration in a dough or starter, the more quickly things
>> happen. A somewhat dryer dough will hold it's peak rise somewhat longer
>> than a wetter dough. All of this has to also be seen in the overall
>> context of Beatrice Ojakangas' comment that dough would rather be a bit
>> too wet than a bit too dry. However, when you get past a bit in either
>> direction, you are asking for trouble.
>>
>> Mike
>>
> With my freeform baking, I had been using more stretch and folds, the very
> wet dough gaining firmness with each step. By the time it was divided and
> shaped and formed it was pretty stable and keeping its shape. I really
> didn't know what was necessary with baking in a pan, I kind of thought all
> the steps were to help keep the boule from spreading and turning into a
> pancake like my first 10 or 20 loaves. So I didn't spend so much time
> preparing the dough.
>
> Also I have never spent all that much time kneading the wet stick dough, I
> have been using the knead technique I got from that artisan bread DVD,
> where
> you pick up the wet dough, let it stretch and fall back onto the counter
> while still holding some in your hand, fold it over, turn it, pick it up
> again, and so on for about 5 minutes until it gets a smooth outer surface,
> then let it rise a bit before doing stretch and folds. This has worked
> fine
> for me until now, but in the hindsight suddenly apparent in writing this
> down, this probably should have been modified somehow if I wasn't going to
> do all the stretch and folds.
>
> If I do all the stretch and folds and form and shape the dough better, it
> will of coarse be firmer when I put it in the pans, so in that case do you
> still suggest a dryer dough?
>
> hutchndi
>
>

"TradinDude" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> at first glance i'd say it looks over-proofed (you let it rise too long).
i
> don't like the cold oven idea at all. is there some logic behind that
that
> i don't know? (not meant to be antagonistic... a serious question.) i
> could definately see a cold oven causing some expansion, but not having
> enough heat to set the dough to hold the structure.
>
> just a guess though....
>
Well, this is my 2nd try at loafpans. The first I tried everything else the
same except I preheated the oven to 450 with quarry tiles for 40 minutes or
so, then put in my loafpans. As soon as I shut the door (I have a glass
window in the door) I could see the large bubbles forming on the crust. A
lot of the posters here recommend putting the loaves in a cold oven and
giving it a chance to rise a bit during preheat, so I tried that on these
next loaves, with the same results, except that it maybe raised a bit more
and sort of drooped out the sides. I don't usually bake that way, I just
grasped at straws and thought maybe it would help somehow.

hutchndi

"TradinDude" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> at first glance i'd say it looks over-proofed (you let it rise too long).
i
> don't like the cold oven idea at all. is there some logic behind that
that
> i don't know? (not meant to be antagonistic... a serious question.) i
> could definately see a cold oven causing some expansion, but not having
> enough heat to set the dough to hold the structure.
>
> just a guess though....
>
Well, this is my 2nd try at loafpans. The first I tried everything else the
same except I preheated the oven to 450 with quarry tiles for 40 minutes or
so, then put in my loafpans. As soon as I shut the door (I have a glass
window in the door) I could see the large bubbles forming on the crust. A
lot of the posters here recommend putting the loaves in a cold oven and
giving it a chance to rise a bit during preheat, so I tried that on these
next loaves, with the same results, except that it maybe raised a bit more
and sort of drooped out the sides. I don't usually bake that way, I just
grasped at straws and thought maybe it would help somehow.

hutchndi

HUTCHNDI wrote:

> My bubbles thread got deleted,

no, it didn't. many news readers -apparently also the one you're using-
will automatically will delete text that appears below a .sig delimiter.
if you just trimmed/deleted it from your submissions, maybe you'd see
your own messages.

b/, still waiting for the keyboard

HUTCHNDI wrote:

> My bubbles thread got deleted,

no, it didn't. many news readers -apparently also the one you're using-
will automatically will delete text that appears below a .sig delimiter.
if you just trimmed/deleted it from your submissions, maybe you'd see
your own messages.

b/, still waiting for the keyboard

No, actually its even odder, this morning I looked up and down for the
"Bubbles" thread, and it was no where in the list. So I started a new one,
"Crust bubbles" so that I could continue with the thread, and an hour or so
later when I returned, the original "Bubbles" thread was back. Perhaps
something with my computer is amiss. I can see my own messages fine. At
least I think so. I don't know where or what the "sig deliminator" is, but
I hope it doesn't find me ....

hutchndi

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> HUTCHNDI wrote:
>
> > My bubbles thread got deleted,
>
> no, it didn't. many news readers -apparently also the one you're using-
> will automatically will delete text that appears below a .sig delimiter.
> if you just trimmed/deleted it from your submissions, maybe you'd see
> your own messages.
>
> b/, still waiting for the keyboard

No, actually its even odder, this morning I looked up and down for the
"Bubbles" thread, and it was no where in the list. So I started a new one,
"Crust bubbles" so that I could continue with the thread, and an hour or so
later when I returned, the original "Bubbles" thread was back. Perhaps
something with my computer is amiss. I can see my own messages fine. At
least I think so. I don't know where or what the "sig deliminator" is, but
I hope it doesn't find me ....

hutchndi

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> HUTCHNDI wrote:
>
> > My bubbles thread got deleted,
>
> no, it didn't. many news readers -apparently also the one you're using-
> will automatically will delete text that appears below a .sig delimiter.
> if you just trimmed/deleted it from your submissions, maybe you'd see
> your own messages.
>
> b/, still waiting for the keyboard

HUTCHNDI wrote:
....
> I don't know where or what the "sig deliminator" is, but
> I hope it doesn't find me ....

ROFL

--
Address to mail me:
Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:

non_tox ::ATE:: web :OG:: de

HUTCHNDI wrote:
....
> I don't know where or what the "sig deliminator" is, but
> I hope it doesn't find me ....

ROFL

--
Address to mail me:
Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:

non_tox ::ATE:: web :OG:: de

HUTCHNDI wrote:

I don't know where or what the "sig deliminator" is, but
> I hope it doesn't find me ....
>

it's the dash-dash-space that comes above a .sig or signature file. for
further information, ask over in news.newusers.questions.

b/

HUTCHNDI wrote:

I don't know where or what the "sig deliminator" is, but
> I hope it doesn't find me ....
>

it's the dash-dash-space that comes above a .sig or signature file. for
further information, ask over in news.newusers.questions.

b/

"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in
news:rbsce.60$%44.14@lakeread06:


> With my freeform baking, I had been using more stretch and folds, the
> very wet dough gaining firmness with each step. By the time it was
> divided and shaped and formed it was pretty stable and keeping its
> shape. I really didn't know what was necessary with baking in a pan, I
> kind of thought all the steps were to help keep the boule from
> spreading and turning into a pancake like my first 10 or 20 loaves. So
> I didn't spend so much time preparing the dough.
>


The bakers I've spent time with in France use a long strip of canvas
dusted with flour to keep boules from getting flat. The baker will lay a
boule down on the canvas, pointing side to side, lift the canvas next to
the boule, lay down another boule, lift the canvas, and so on. The
canvas pooches up between boules and encourages them to hold their round
shape. Also, the boules are only an inch and a half in diameter, and
have plenty of gas bubbles in them to reduce their mass, so there isn't
much dough weight to flatten them. The baker shoves the boules toward
each other to keep some pressure on their sides so they don't flatten
out.

Then, he slides a big paddle under the array of canvased boules, lifts
it, sets it in the oven, and slides the paddle out. In 15 or twenty
minutes, he removes the baked loaves from the oven, lets them cool a few
minutes, then takes them off the canvas. The result is beautiful long
skinny loaves of French bread, nicely oven-sprung, very crusty and
golden-brown, with huge crumb holes.

Of course, the bakers duplicate their formula and process perfectly for
every batch of bread, or else they'd quickly lose their customers.

Such bread dries hard if kept more than 4 hours without eating it.
That's why the French buy lunch-time bread in the morning, and supper-
time bread in the late afternoon.


If you want similar bread, do your stretching and folding early in the
process, let the mass rest about 10 minutes, then form boules that are
long and skinny instead of short and fat. If your dough isn't too wet,
they might hold their shape better as they rise. And hey, you can also
go down to JoAnne's Fabrics and buy yourself a strip of heavy canvas.
I'll bet it's cheaper than bread pans.

Gonorio

"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in
news:rbsce.60$%44.14@lakeread06:


> With my freeform baking, I had been using more stretch and folds, the
> very wet dough gaining firmness with each step. By the time it was
> divided and shaped and formed it was pretty stable and keeping its
> shape. I really didn't know what was necessary with baking in a pan, I
> kind of thought all the steps were to help keep the boule from
> spreading and turning into a pancake like my first 10 or 20 loaves. So
> I didn't spend so much time preparing the dough.
>


The bakers I've spent time with in France use a long strip of canvas
dusted with flour to keep boules from getting flat. The baker will lay a
boule down on the canvas, pointing side to side, lift the canvas next to
the boule, lay down another boule, lift the canvas, and so on. The
canvas pooches up between boules and encourages them to hold their round
shape. Also, the boules are only an inch and a half in diameter, and
have plenty of gas bubbles in them to reduce their mass, so there isn't
much dough weight to flatten them. The baker shoves the boules toward
each other to keep some pressure on their sides so they don't flatten
out.

Then, he slides a big paddle under the array of canvased boules, lifts
it, sets it in the oven, and slides the paddle out. In 15 or twenty
minutes, he removes the baked loaves from the oven, lets them cool a few
minutes, then takes them off the canvas. The result is beautiful long
skinny loaves of French bread, nicely oven-sprung, very crusty and
golden-brown, with huge crumb holes.

Of course, the bakers duplicate their formula and process perfectly for
every batch of bread, or else they'd quickly lose their customers.

Such bread dries hard if kept more than 4 hours without eating it.
That's why the French buy lunch-time bread in the morning, and supper-
time bread in the late afternoon.


If you want similar bread, do your stretching and folding early in the
process, let the mass rest about 10 minutes, then form boules that are
long and skinny instead of short and fat. If your dough isn't too wet,
they might hold their shape better as they rise. And hey, you can also
go down to JoAnne's Fabrics and buy yourself a strip of heavy canvas.
I'll bet it's cheaper than bread pans.

Gonorio

Howdy,

Please see my comments inline below...



On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:10:16 GMT, Gonorio Dineri
> wrote:

>>
>
>
>The bakers I've spent time with in France use a long strip of canvas
>dusted with flour to keep boules from getting flat.

"Boules" are round loaves.


>The baker will lay a
>boule down on the canvas, pointing side to side, lift the canvas next to
>the boule, lay down another boule, lift the canvas, and so on. The
>canvas pooches up between boules and encourages them to hold their round
>shape. Also, the boules are only an inch and a half in diameter, and
>have plenty of gas bubbles in them to reduce their mass, so there isn't
>much dough weight to flatten them. The baker shoves the boules toward
>each other to keep some pressure on their sides so they don't flatten
>out.

Your description is fine, but what you are describing above
are not boules, they are baguettes (or if as narrow as you
mention, "ficelles.")

>Then, he slides a big paddle under the array of canvased boules, lifts
>it, sets it in the oven, and slides the paddle out. In 15 or twenty
>minutes, he removes the baked loaves from the oven, lets them cool a few
>minutes, then takes them off the canvas. The result is beautiful long
>skinny loaves of French bread, nicely oven-sprung, very crusty and
>golden-brown, with huge crumb holes.

Are you sure that the canvas went into the oven?

I don't think so.

What you are describing is a method that the French call
using a "couche." After the dough rises in the canvas (as
you accurately describe) it is rolled out of the canvas onto
a flat board, slashed, and slid into the oven.

Were the canvas to go into the oven, it would cause a few
problems. Not the least of which, it would burn. But, beyond
that, when the moist dough rests in the couche, the top
surface dries a bit. Then, when the risen dough is flipped
over, the tender part that was in contact with the canvas is
then uppermost. It is slashed, and because it is more moist
and flexible, can expand in the oven more than would the
drier part that was formerly the top.

>
>Of course, the bakers duplicate their formula and process perfectly for
>every batch of bread, or else they'd quickly lose their customers.
>
>Such bread dries hard if kept more than 4 hours without eating it.
>That's why the French buy lunch-time bread in the morning, and supper-
>time bread in the late afternoon.
>
>
>If you want similar bread, do your stretching and folding early in the
>process, let the mass rest about 10 minutes, then form boules that are
>long and skinny instead of short and fat. If your dough isn't too wet,
>they might hold their shape better as they rise. And hey, you can also
>go down to JoAnne's Fabrics and buy yourself a strip of heavy canvas.
>I'll bet it's cheaper than bread pans.
>
>Gonorio

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"TradinDude" > wrote in
nk.net:

> i don't see a hydration problem here necessarily. it is a possibility
> though.
>
> try modifying your kneading technique: do what you're doing, but
> instead of letting the dough fall and stretch, you pick it up and slam
> it into the counter. done right, this makes the dough extend 1-3 feet
> into a string across the counter. fold it up, turn, repeat. kind of
> a fun kneading technique for small batches of dough.
>
> shaping the loaves properly is really a key step, and one that's hard
> to learn from a book. you can have someone show you how to do it, but
> you can also discover how to do it right through a lot of trial and
> error. this is one of the areas where the pros have a real advantage.
> someone shaping hundreds of loaves a day is just going to be better
> at it than you are. mike's advice is solid.
>
> i wouldn't mess with the hydration of your dough, or at the very least
> would only change one thing at a time. if it was me, i'd start with
> proof time and oven temperature first.
>


Tradin:

What about oven temp? How does that affect Hutchndi's results?

I think his hydration probably is something of a problem - the dough's
too wet, and he should soak his coarse granules of seeds for a few hours
before adding them. I'm just wild-guessing some of the hydration in the
dough is a compensation for the fact that flax meal is so dry and willing
to absorb moisture.

The Dough Formula I Use


I like this sourdough formula of:

1.0x = Sponge weight (assuming starter weight = 50/50 water/flour weight
3.0x = Water weight
5.0x = Flour weight
0.1x = Salt weight
0.02x = Ascorbic Acid powder

Note that a 50-50 sponge starts off being quite stiff, and not gooey or
runny. It's like wet dough, and you can barely work it with a spoon. As
the sponge develops over several hours, it loosens up because of
bacterial action, but it is still somewhat stiff.

If the sponge is too wet, you must reduce the water content of the final
dough to compensate. For this reason, if the sponge is too gooey or
soupy, it is wisest to put all the flour and most of the water into your
mixer, mix it till the flour is mostly wettened, let it rest 20 minutes,
knead in the sponge, knead in the salt, and then knead in a little more
water if and as you require it for a stiff (but not too stiff) dough.
The kneading process develops gluten and traps oxygen in the dough
structure to assist in yeast metabolism.

Thae above formula makes a perfect, rather stiff dough that rises well
(with Carl's starter). When processed through a 30-45 minute rise, early
strech-and-fold, 10 minute rest, loaf forming, and then a 2-3 hour rise,
the dough softens a bit and makes perfect loaves when baked half an hour
(skinny loaves) to an hour (fat loaves) at 375 from a cold oven, or even
in a 400F preheated oven.

My oven barely makes it to 450F, so I don't bother trying to bake loaves
at that high a temp. And I have two huge granite slabs in the oven, so I
preheat it for an hour at 400F. My loaves turn out perfect, and they
don't flatten too much if I form them right.

Also, if you want large crumb holes in the bread with the above formula,
you must not over-knead it, for overdeveloping the dough during kneading
makes the gluten structure too strong and prevents a proper rise, keeping
the crumb holes small and closely packed. If the dough is wetter, you can
have large crumb holes, but the loaves will not hold shape unless you use
a banneton and hot oven or you bake them in a pan.

Rightly Forming Loaves


I do not believe it takes a lot of trial and error, nor an in-person
coach to learn how to form loaves so they stand tall.

Let's assume you want to bake 1-pound loaves from round boules. You have
two options:

1. Final-rise the dough in a bowl, basket, or banneton, then invert the
bowl onto the stone or baking sheet before slicing its top and sliding it
into the oven. This makes it hold its shape, but it also risks
flattening, deflating, or destroying its shape if you have let it rise
too long.

2. Shape it by hand in such a way that it holds its shape. For this,
you need stiff dough, made with the above proportions. Cut an 18 ounce
chunk of dough from your dough blob and set it on the counter, bread
board, or glass stove top. With your hands parallel to the working
surface, bring them together to hold the dough, then gently and slowly
spin it around clockwise to make the boule round. As you spin the dough,
use this technique:

a. Lift your hands away from the dough and an inch or two above
the working surface, then touch your palms to the dough and lower them to
the work surface while spinning the dough clockwise. This will gradually
stretch the top surface of the dough, pulling it down the sides to create
a taught top skin.

b. At the end of each spin cycle, press inward toward the dough
with the lower, fat part of your palms when they are at the work surface.
This will tuck underneath the buold the part of the dough you just pulled
down the sides. It thereby keeps the skin taught on the top and sides.

c. Continue the above steps till the boule is a tight sphere, but
take care not to mash too hard on the dough. Remember that it has
incipient gas bubbles forming inside it and you don't want to squish them
out.

d. Set the boule on a baking sheet sprinkled with cornmeal, and
cover it with an inverted plastic container large enough to accommodate
the rise, or with lightly oiled plastic wrap. This prevents the skin
from drying out during the rise.

e. When the rise is nearly double the original size of the boule,
lift the cover and use a serrated or razor sharp knife to make four
slices in the top of the boule, in the approximate shape of a square,
This will allow the dough to continue its rise and spring higher in the
oven without breaking the skin. Cover it for another half hour to hour.

f. Use a spatula or paddle to slide the boule onto the baking
stone. I recommend doing this in a 400 to 450F pre-heated oven because a
thick cold stone will prevent the bottom of the loaf from baking properly
and will retard its spring.


Gonorio

"Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message =
.. .

> ... My loaves turn out perfect ...

That is just so wonderful that your loaves are perfect!

Could you post some photos?

--
DickA
(Whose loaves, after all these years, are not too bad!)

"Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message =
.. .

> ... My loaves turn out perfect ...

That is just so wonderful that your loaves are perfect!

Could you post some photos?

--
DickA
(Whose loaves, after all these years, are not too bad!)

Gonorio Dineri wrote:

>The Dough Formula I Use
>
>
>I like this sourdough formula of:
>
>1.0x = Sponge weight (assuming starter weight = 50/50 water/flour weight
>3.0x = Water weight
>5.0x = Flour weight
>0.1x = Salt weight
>0.02x = Ascorbic Acid powder
>
>
That's a LOT of ascorbic acid - usually it's added in parts per million,
or grams per hundred kilograms of flour. How concentrated is your
ascorbic acid? If it is already fairly dilute, the numbers you mention
might be on track, though they could confuse someone who went to their
local health food store and bought pure ascorbic acid crystals.

>
>Rightly Forming Loaves
>
>
>
That's a nice description of making boules.... or seemed to be at a
quick scan. However, Hutchindi was trying to make sandwich loaves in
bread pans.

My suggestion for making such loaves....

Weight out an appropriate amount of dough. What's appropriate? It
depends on your bread pans and your dough. Some breads you'll use more,
some less. You want to let your dough rise fully without going too
high. So, start with a pound or a pound and a half and adjust from there.

Put the dough on your counter top or work surface. Use a rolling pin to
roll it into a rectangle just slightly wider than your bread pan and
about twice as long as it is wide.

Starting with the edge farthest from you, roll the dough towards you.
Use your thumbs to lightly crimp the dough together where it rolls.
It's easy to show, easy to demonstrate, but hard to explain. It's where
the roll of dough meets the dough that's still on your table.

If you crimp/roll too tightly, you'll get swirls in your bread. If you
crimp/roll too loosely, you'll have separate layers of bread. The "OK"
range is pretty wide. Again, you'll have to play with it.

Once you've rolled the dough all the way, pinch the seam where the dough
ended to the roll. Once it's pinched shut, place the seam down on your
table top. Using the edges of your hands, crimp the ends of the loaf of
dough to the width of the bread pan. Tuck the excess dough under the
loaf. You want a little undertuck, not much. If you have too much, it
causes a weakness in the loaf.

Pinch the flaps to the main mass of dough. Oil your bread pan if you
haven't already done so. Put the dough into the bread pan, seam side
down. You need to keep the dough in a moist environment to let it
rise. If the dough surface dries out, it will act as a girdle and
prevent the dough from fully rising. You can put some steam into a cool
oven. You can humidify a room or other enclosure. You may spray the
top of the dough with oil to trap moisture, or you may cover the dough
with a saran wrap "Quick Cover", or just plain cling wrap. If you don't
want to oil the bread, you can lightly oil the cling wrap to prevent the
cling wrap from clinging too tightly to the dough once it's risen.

Once the dough has risen, bake it. After a while, you should know how
long it takes different recipes to fully rise and start pre-heating the
oven at an apporpriate time. Some people prefer to start bread in a
cool oven, which also works. However, if you want to use the cool oven
technique, don't leave your oven stones, if any, in the oven. Oven
stones slow the oven heating considerably and if you are working from a
cool oven, you want it to heat as quickly as possible.

Hope this helps Hutchindi with his loaf forming for sandwich loaves in
bread pans,
Mike

Gonorio Dineri wrote:

>The Dough Formula I Use
>
>
>I like this sourdough formula of:
>
>1.0x = Sponge weight (assuming starter weight = 50/50 water/flour weight
>3.0x = Water weight
>5.0x = Flour weight
>0.1x = Salt weight
>0.02x = Ascorbic Acid powder
>
>
That's a LOT of ascorbic acid - usually it's added in parts per million,
or grams per hundred kilograms of flour. How concentrated is your
ascorbic acid? If it is already fairly dilute, the numbers you mention
might be on track, though they could confuse someone who went to their
local health food store and bought pure ascorbic acid crystals.

>
>Rightly Forming Loaves
>
>
>
That's a nice description of making boules.... or seemed to be at a
quick scan. However, Hutchindi was trying to make sandwich loaves in
bread pans.

My suggestion for making such loaves....

Weight out an appropriate amount of dough. What's appropriate? It
depends on your bread pans and your dough. Some breads you'll use more,
some less. You want to let your dough rise fully without going too
high. So, start with a pound or a pound and a half and adjust from there.

Put the dough on your counter top or work surface. Use a rolling pin to
roll it into a rectangle just slightly wider than your bread pan and
about twice as long as it is wide.

Starting with the edge farthest from you, roll the dough towards you.
Use your thumbs to lightly crimp the dough together where it rolls.
It's easy to show, easy to demonstrate, but hard to explain. It's where
the roll of dough meets the dough that's still on your table.

If you crimp/roll too tightly, you'll get swirls in your bread. If you
crimp/roll too loosely, you'll have separate layers of bread. The "OK"
range is pretty wide. Again, you'll have to play with it.

Once you've rolled the dough all the way, pinch the seam where the dough
ended to the roll. Once it's pinched shut, place the seam down on your
table top. Using the edges of your hands, crimp the ends of the loaf of
dough to the width of the bread pan. Tuck the excess dough under the
loaf. You want a little undertuck, not much. If you have too much, it
causes a weakness in the loaf.

Pinch the flaps to the main mass of dough. Oil your bread pan if you
haven't already done so. Put the dough into the bread pan, seam side
down. You need to keep the dough in a moist environment to let it
rise. If the dough surface dries out, it will act as a girdle and
prevent the dough from fully rising. You can put some steam into a cool
oven. You can humidify a room or other enclosure. You may spray the
top of the dough with oil to trap moisture, or you may cover the dough
with a saran wrap "Quick Cover", or just plain cling wrap. If you don't
want to oil the bread, you can lightly oil the cling wrap to prevent the
cling wrap from clinging too tightly to the dough once it's risen.

Once the dough has risen, bake it. After a while, you should know how
long it takes different recipes to fully rise and start pre-heating the
oven at an apporpriate time. Some people prefer to start bread in a
cool oven, which also works. However, if you want to use the cool oven
technique, don't leave your oven stones, if any, in the oven. Oven
stones slow the oven heating considerably and if you are working from a
cool oven, you want it to heat as quickly as possible.

Hope this helps Hutchindi with his loaf forming for sandwich loaves in
bread pans,
Mike

"Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
.. .
....
> The bakers I've spent time with in France use a long strip of canvas
> dusted with flour to keep boules from getting flat. The baker will lay a
Hello Gonoria! Thanks for your most interesting first hand description.
But methinks that you've simplified a bit too much. I don't think that
canvas, which is cotton based, can survive your typical bread oven temps...

I've probably just misunderstood. Could you please elucidate?


Later all,
Dusty

....
> Gonorio

"Dick Adams" > wrote in
:

>
> "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
> .. .
>
>> ... My loaves turn out perfect ...
>
> That is just so wonderful that your loaves are perfect!
>
> Could you post some photos?
>
> --
> DickA
> (Whose loaves, after all these years, are not too bad!)

Sure, Dicky A, No problem. Just to satisfy your eyeballs' (º¿º) sourdough
loaf cravings (you kinky rascal), I've put photos of a boule and baguette
made with my process (just a variation of Samartha's process) at this link:

http://www.yesalbum.com/index.php?album=Gonorio

Gonorio

"Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message=20
.. .

> http://www.yesalbum.com/index.php?album=3DGonorio

Not too bad!

--
-d.

"Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message=20
.. .

> http://www.yesalbum.com/index.php?album=3DGonorio

Not too bad!

--
-d.

Mike Avery > wrote in
news:mailman.0.1114877070.78192.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com:

> That's a LOT of ascorbic acid - usually it's added in parts per
> million, or grams per hundred kilograms of flour. How concentrated is
> your ascorbic acid? If it is already fairly dilute, the numbers you
> mention might be on track, though they could confuse someone who went
> to their local health food store and bought pure ascorbic acid
> crystals.
>

I had a bottle of 1 gram Vitamin C torpedos made of Ascorbic Acid and
Rose Hips. I ground them to powder in my VitaMix. That's what I use. If
I'm making a 1-pound loaf, I juse just a pinch.


> If you crimp/roll too tightly, you'll get swirls in your bread. If
> you crimp/roll too loosely, you'll have separate layers of bread. The
> "OK" range is pretty wide. Again, you'll have to play with it.


Crimping is a good idea for keeping a boule tight, too. After tightening
the skin with the downward push during a spin, you can turn the boule
over and crimp the bottom.

As you can see from the photo in

http://www.yesalbum.com/index.php?album=Gonorio

My boule sprang in the oven not only at the top but also at the bottom,
in spite of the cuts I made in the top.

Next time, I'll cut vertically up the sides. It'll control the spring a
bit better.




>
> Hope this helps Hutchindi with his loaf forming for sandwich loaves in
> bread pans,
> Mike

I liked your bread technique, Mike. Sounds right to me.

I most appreciate breadpans for making sandwich / toast loaves,
particularly when the dough is wet.


Gonorio.

Kenneth > wrote in
:

> "Boules" are round loaves.
>
> Your description is fine, but what you are describing above
> are not boules, they are baguettes (or if as narrow as you
> mention, "ficelles.")

Thanks for correcting me.

>
> Are you sure that the canvas went into the oven?
>
> I don't think so.
>

I am absolutely sure. In fact, it might have been made from fiberglass or
some other fiber besides cotton, but the oven temperatures did not seem to
affect it at all.

> What you are describing is a method that the French call
> using a "couche." After the dough rises in the canvas (as
> you accurately describe) it is rolled out of the canvas onto
> a flat board, slashed, and slid into the oven.
>

The bakers slashed the ficelles in the couche, then pushed the whole
assembly into the oven.

> when the moist dough rests in the couche, the top
> surface dries a bit. Then, when the risen dough is flipped
> over, the tender part that was in contact with the canvas is
> then uppermost. It is slashed, and because it is more moist
> and flexible, can expand in the oven more than would the
> drier part that was formerly the top.
>
Seems like a good idea to me.

G

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in
:

> "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
> .. .
> ...
>> The bakers I've spent time with in France use a long strip of canvas
>> dusted with flour to keep boules from getting flat. The baker will
>> lay a
> Hello Gonoria! Thanks for your most interesting first hand
> description. But methinks that you've simplified a bit too much. I
> don't think that canvas, which is cotton based, can survive your
> typical bread oven temps...
>
> I've probably just misunderstood. Could you please elucidate?
>
>
> Later all,
> Dusty
>
> ...
It IS canvas, but it is probably not made of cotton. It actually has quite
a coarse weave, rather like a cross between burlap and canvas.

And, maybe its not really a couche, but has some other name. The kind of
couche I've seen is more like an ambulance stretcher for holding loaves to
be baked. Commercial bakers put a bunch of loaves on it, slam the whole
thing in the oven, then lower a lever and slide the couche back out,
leaving the loaves in place in the oven.

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in
:

> "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
> .. .
> ...
>> The bakers I've spent time with in France use a long strip of canvas
>> dusted with flour to keep boules from getting flat. The baker will
>> lay a
> Hello Gonoria! Thanks for your most interesting first hand
> description. But methinks that you've simplified a bit too much. I
> don't think that canvas, which is cotton based, can survive your
> typical bread oven temps...
>
> I've probably just misunderstood. Could you please elucidate?
>
>
> Later all,
> Dusty
>
> ...
It IS canvas, but it is probably not made of cotton. It actually has quite
a coarse weave, rather like a cross between burlap and canvas.

And, maybe its not really a couche, but has some other name. The kind of
couche I've seen is more like an ambulance stretcher for holding loaves to
be baked. Commercial bakers put a bunch of loaves on it, slam the whole
thing in the oven, then lower a lever and slide the couche back out,
leaving the loaves in place in the oven.

side explosions like that usually mean underproofing, or properly proofed
cold dough went in a hot oven.

baguette (actually a batard if we're being picky, right? (and this group
does seem like the place to get picky)) looks good, but to really be
"perfect" loaves both of these need a but more "shred", which could indicate
maybe needing more gluten development, or maybe if the slashes were made
closer to parallel to the surface of the dough (rather than actually into
the loaf).

just my two cents.

and yeah, you're right, there is a fiberglass couche similar to those silpat
sheets we all love. maybe that's what you saw go into the ovens?

"Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>> ... My loaves turn out perfect ...
>>
>> That is just so wonderful that your loaves are perfect!
>>
>> Could you post some photos?
>>
>> --
>> DickA
>> (Whose loaves, after all these years, are not too bad!)
>
> Sure, Dicky A, No problem. Just to satisfy your eyeballs' (º¿º) sourdough
> loaf cravings (you kinky rascal), I've put photos of a boule and baguette
> made with my process (just a variation of Samartha's process) at this
> link:
>
> http://www.yesalbum.com/index.php?album=Gonorio
>
> Gonorio

side explosions like that usually mean underproofing, or properly proofed
cold dough went in a hot oven.

baguette (actually a batard if we're being picky, right? (and this group
does seem like the place to get picky)) looks good, but to really be
"perfect" loaves both of these need a but more "shred", which could indicate
maybe needing more gluten development, or maybe if the slashes were made
closer to parallel to the surface of the dough (rather than actually into
the loaf).

just my two cents.

and yeah, you're right, there is a fiberglass couche similar to those silpat
sheets we all love. maybe that's what you saw go into the ovens?

"Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> "Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>
>>> ... My loaves turn out perfect ...
>>
>> That is just so wonderful that your loaves are perfect!
>>
>> Could you post some photos?
>>
>> --
>> DickA
>> (Whose loaves, after all these years, are not too bad!)
>
> Sure, Dicky A, No problem. Just to satisfy your eyeballs' (º¿º) sourdough
> loaf cravings (you kinky rascal), I've put photos of a boule and baguette
> made with my process (just a variation of Samartha's process) at this
> link:
>
> http://www.yesalbum.com/index.php?album=Gonorio
>
> Gonorio

"TradinDude" > wrote in
ink.net:


>
> baguette (actually a batard if we're being picky, right? (and this
> group does seem like the place to get picky))

Hey, Tradin:

Isn't batard French for ******* or dog? How did it come to mean as small
elongated formed loaf of bread?

Gonorio

i'm assuming because it's not a true baguette loaf and not a boule... some
kind of cross of both shapes? that's what i've always assumed but i don't
know. so yeah, it's a "*******" loaf. i'd love to see some american bakery
get the guts up to market a loaf under that name. just think... you could
have them in different sizes: "big *******", "little *******", etc. it
would catch on in the right city (look at names of microbrews and hot
sauces!)

"Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
.. .
> "TradinDude" > wrote in
> ink.net:
>
>
>>
>> baguette (actually a batard if we're being picky, right? (and this
>> group does seem like the place to get picky))
>
> Hey, Tradin:
>
> Isn't batard French for ******* or dog? How did it come to mean as small
> elongated formed loaf of bread?
>
> Gonorio
>
>

i'm assuming because it's not a true baguette loaf and not a boule... some
kind of cross of both shapes? that's what i've always assumed but i don't
know. so yeah, it's a "*******" loaf. i'd love to see some american bakery
get the guts up to market a loaf under that name. just think... you could
have them in different sizes: "big *******", "little *******", etc. it
would catch on in the right city (look at names of microbrews and hot
sauces!)

"Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message
.. .
> "TradinDude" > wrote in
> ink.net:
>
>
>>
>> baguette (actually a batard if we're being picky, right? (and this
>> group does seem like the place to get picky))
>
> Hey, Tradin:
>
> Isn't batard French for ******* or dog? How did it come to mean as small
> elongated formed loaf of bread?
>
> Gonorio
>
>