Tried a few things, if anyone would like to comment. I steered clear of
adding gluten and developed what was there a bit more, made a less sticky
dough, and worked on shaping a bit (though not the swirl thing yet),
probably could have proofed longer.

http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm

hutchndi

HUTCHNDI wrote:
> Tried a few things, if anyone would like to comment. I steered clear of
> adding gluten and developed what was there a bit more, made a less sticky
> dough, and worked on shaping a bit (though not the swirl thing yet),
> probably could have proofed longer.
>
> http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
> hutchndi
>
>
So hutchndi... how do YOU like it?
To me it looks quite good.

For a bit more tang you could leave the sourdough (Your 1 1/2 cup plus
the 2 cups of flour and water) a bit longer. I leave mine for at least
12 and up to 16 hours.
And for more gluten I would take the whole flours for the sourdough and
the AP flour for the final dough (just switching places). This would
save the gluten in your AP flour for the bake.

I hope I could explaain my ideas.

Joschi

--
Address to mail me:
Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:

non_tox ::AT:: web :OT:: de

"Joschi Kley" > wrote in message
...
> HUTCHNDI wrote:
> > Tried a few things, if anyone would like to comment. I steered clear of
> > adding gluten and developed what was there a bit more, made a less
sticky
> > dough, and worked on shaping a bit (though not the swirl thing yet),
> > probably could have proofed longer.
> >
> > http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
> >
> > hutchndi
> >
> >
> So hutchndi... how do YOU like it?
> To me it looks quite good.
>
> For a bit more tang you could leave the sourdough (Your 1 1/2 cup plus
> the 2 cups of flour and water) a bit longer. I leave mine for at least
> 12 and up to 16 hours.
> And for more gluten I would take the whole flours for the sourdough and
> the AP flour for the final dough (just switching places). This would
> save the gluten in your AP flour for the bake.
>
> I hope I could explaain my ideas.
>
> Joschi
>
> --
> Address to mail me:
> Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:
>
> non_tox ::AT:: web :OT:: de
>

Actually, right now its kind of a nice in-between of useful sandwich bread
and a nice batard. Doesn't seem dryerat all, but a bit heavier.

That's an interesting suggestion, about switching flour steps. Dick Adams
gets me worried all the time that souring the sponge is a big mistake, so I
have only been going around eight to 10 hours, if that. If my final addition
of flour was mostly AP (I use King Arthur), then the soured sponge may stand
a better chance of raising the dough (is my thinking correct here?)

Somebody suggested adding gluten, I cant recall who. I have a box in my
cupboard from when I was using a bread machine, its probably gone bad by
now, as I haven't even looked at it in months. One of the reasons I wanted
to getaway from the machine was the need for all the special ingredients to
make it work, gluten and breadmachine yeasts and bread flour, so I tried to
stay away from that one.

HUTCHNDI wrote:

>
> Actually, right now its kind of a nice in-between of useful sandwich bread
> and a nice batard. Doesn't seem dryerat all, but a bit heavier.
>
> That's an interesting suggestion, about switching flour steps. Dick Adams
> gets me worried all the time that souring the sponge is a big mistake, so I
> have only been going around eight to 10 hours, if that. If my final addition
> of flour was mostly AP (I use King Arthur), then the soured sponge may stand
> a better chance of raising the dough (is my thinking correct here?)

The gluten gets weaker when it ferments for a long time. So if you would
take the AP flour for the final dough you could spare the higher gluten
in it for the build of the bread instead of wasting it in the sponge.

> Somebody suggested adding gluten, I cant recall who.

I was the guy with the gluten...

> I have a box in my
> cupboard from when I was using a bread machine, its probably gone bad by
> now, as I haven't even looked at it in months. One of the reasons I wanted
> to getaway from the machine was the need for all the special ingredients to
> make it work, gluten and breadmachine yeasts and bread flour, so I tried to
> stay away from that one.
>
>

Roy wrote about a decent recipe for another try. Here is one:
It is a bit similar to what you are baking:



Whole-Wheat Levain


Levain:
4.8 oz whole wheat flour (1 1/8 cups)
4.8 oz water (5/8 cup)
1oz mature culture (liquid)

12 to 14 hours before the final bake mix the starter with the water (I
almost whip it to incorporate oxygen for the yeast) and mix in the whole
wheat flour.
Cover and let stand at 70°F

Final dough:
whole wheat flour 11.2 oz (2 1/2 cups)
bread flour 1 lb (4 1/2 cups)
water 1 lb (2 1/8 cups)
salt .6 oz (1T)
Levain 6.9 oz (all less 2T)

Mix until the gluten is moderately developed.
Dough should be at 76°F after mixing.
Ferment for 2 1/2 hours.

In this time:
Fold the dough twice at 50 min intervals.

Divide in two loaves (1.5 lb each) and shape in desired shape.

Let ferment for another 2 to 2 1/2 hours at 76°F
(or retard for up to 8 hours at 50°F or up to 18 hours at 42°F)

Bake with normal steam at 460°F for 40 to 45 minutes.

Good luck!

Joschi
--

--
Address to mail me:
Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:

non_tox ::AT:: web :OT:: de

"Joschi Kley" > wrote in message
...
> HUTCHNDI wrote:
>
> >
> > Actually, right now its kind of a nice in-between of useful sandwich
bread
> > and a nice batard. Doesn't seem dryerat all, but a bit heavier.
> >
> > That's an interesting suggestion, about switching flour steps. Dick
Adams
> > gets me worried all the time that souring the sponge is a big mistake,
so I
> > have only been going around eight to 10 hours, if that. If my final
addition
> > of flour was mostly AP (I use King Arthur), then the soured sponge may
stand
> > a better chance of raising the dough (is my thinking correct here?)
>
> The gluten gets weaker when it ferments for a long time. So if you would
> take the AP flour for the final dough you could spare the higher gluten
> in it for the build of the bread instead of wasting it in the sponge.
>
> > Somebody suggested adding gluten, I cant recall who.
>
> I was the guy with the gluten...
>
> > I have a box in my
> > cupboard from when I was using a bread machine, its probably gone bad by
> > now, as I haven't even looked at it in months. One of the reasons I
wanted
> > to getaway from the machine was the need for all the special ingredients
to
> > make it work, gluten and breadmachine yeasts and bread flour, so I tried
to
> > stay away from that one.
> >
> >
>
> Roy wrote about a decent recipe for another try. Here is one:
> It is a bit similar to what you are baking:
>
>
>
> Whole-Wheat Levain
>
>
> Levain:
> 4.8 oz whole wheat flour (1 1/8 cups)
> 4.8 oz water (5/8 cup)
> 1oz mature culture (liquid)
>
> 12 to 14 hours before the final bake mix the starter with the water (I
> almost whip it to incorporate oxygen for the yeast) and mix in the whole
> wheat flour.
> Cover and let stand at 70°F
>
> Final dough:
> whole wheat flour 11.2 oz (2 1/2 cups)
> bread flour 1 lb (4 1/2 cups)
> water 1 lb (2 1/8 cups)
> salt .6 oz (1T)
> Levain 6.9 oz (all less 2T)
>
> Mix until the gluten is moderately developed.
> Dough should be at 76°F after mixing.
> Ferment for 2 1/2 hours.
>
> In this time:
> Fold the dough twice at 50 min intervals.
>
> Divide in two loaves (1.5 lb each) and shape in desired shape.
>
> Let ferment for another 2 to 2 1/2 hours at 76°F
> (or retard for up to 8 hours at 50°F or up to 18 hours at 42°F)
>
> Bake with normal steam at 460°F for 40 to 45 minutes.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Joschi
> --
>
> --
> Address to mail me:
> Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:
>
> non_tox ::AT:: web :OT:: de
>

Until I got a good starter, the type of (basic) recipe I have been using is
the only one that worked at all for me, so I have been guilty of being shy
to change, but that looks like something I might be able to attempt, maybe
my next bread.

Thanks, Hutchndi

"Joschi Kley" > wrote in message
...
> HUTCHNDI wrote:
>
> >
> > Actually, right now its kind of a nice in-between of useful sandwich
bread
> > and a nice batard. Doesn't seem dryerat all, but a bit heavier.
> >
> > That's an interesting suggestion, about switching flour steps. Dick
Adams
> > gets me worried all the time that souring the sponge is a big mistake,
so I
> > have only been going around eight to 10 hours, if that. If my final
addition
> > of flour was mostly AP (I use King Arthur), then the soured sponge may
stand
> > a better chance of raising the dough (is my thinking correct here?)
>
> The gluten gets weaker when it ferments for a long time. So if you would
> take the AP flour for the final dough you could spare the higher gluten
> in it for the build of the bread instead of wasting it in the sponge.
>
> > Somebody suggested adding gluten, I cant recall who.
>
> I was the guy with the gluten...
>
> > I have a box in my
> > cupboard from when I was using a bread machine, its probably gone bad by
> > now, as I haven't even looked at it in months. One of the reasons I
wanted
> > to getaway from the machine was the need for all the special ingredients
to
> > make it work, gluten and breadmachine yeasts and bread flour, so I tried
to
> > stay away from that one.
> >
> >
>
> Roy wrote about a decent recipe for another try. Here is one:
> It is a bit similar to what you are baking:
>
>
>
> Whole-Wheat Levain
>
>
> Levain:
> 4.8 oz whole wheat flour (1 1/8 cups)
> 4.8 oz water (5/8 cup)
> 1oz mature culture (liquid)
>
> 12 to 14 hours before the final bake mix the starter with the water (I
> almost whip it to incorporate oxygen for the yeast) and mix in the whole
> wheat flour.
> Cover and let stand at 70°F
>
> Final dough:
> whole wheat flour 11.2 oz (2 1/2 cups)
> bread flour 1 lb (4 1/2 cups)
> water 1 lb (2 1/8 cups)
> salt .6 oz (1T)
> Levain 6.9 oz (all less 2T)
>
> Mix until the gluten is moderately developed.
> Dough should be at 76°F after mixing.
> Ferment for 2 1/2 hours.
>
> In this time:
> Fold the dough twice at 50 min intervals.
>
> Divide in two loaves (1.5 lb each) and shape in desired shape.
>
> Let ferment for another 2 to 2 1/2 hours at 76°F
> (or retard for up to 8 hours at 50°F or up to 18 hours at 42°F)
>
> Bake with normal steam at 460°F for 40 to 45 minutes.
>
> Good luck!
>
> Joschi
> --
>
> --
> Address to mail me:
> Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:
>
> non_tox ::AT:: web :OT:: de
>

Until I got a good starter, the type of (basic) recipe I have been using is
the only one that worked at all for me, so I have been guilty of being shy
to change, but that looks like something I might be able to attempt, maybe
my next bread.

Thanks, Hutchndi

HUTCHNDI wrote:
> Tried a few things, if anyone would like to comment. I steered clear of
> adding gluten and developed what was there a bit more, made a less sticky
> dough, and worked on shaping a bit (though not the swirl thing yet),
> probably could have proofed longer.
>
> http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
> hutchndi
>
>
So hutchndi... how do YOU like it?
To me it looks quite good.

For a bit more tang you could leave the sourdough (Your 1 1/2 cup plus
the 2 cups of flour and water) a bit longer. I leave mine for at least
12 and up to 16 hours.
And for more gluten I would take the whole flours for the sourdough and
the AP flour for the final dough (just switching places). This would
save the gluten in your AP flour for the bake.

I hope I could explain my ideas.

Joschi

--
Address to mail me:
Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:

non_tox ::AT:: web :OT:: de

hutchndi,

honestly, hard to say from just a picture. at first glace it looks like it
might be a bit underproofed... however, the correct proof depends (among
other things) on hydration. what i'm saying is, depending on how dry your
dough was, this may actually be right on target. if you're not happy with
it (want a looser crumb, more holes) then you're gonna have to increase the
hydration. i didn't do any calculations based on your recipe, but it looks
too dry to me.

15 minutes is also a lot of hand kneading.

i would not add gluten for a regular bread. flours in europe are generally
lower gluten potential than ours and they make ok bread over there, don't
they? imho, save the gluten for bagels and wierd experiments with wierd
grains!

do exactly the same thing you just did but more h2o in the dough and see
where that gets you maybe?

"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message
news:fC9de.85$2J6.52@lakeread06...
> Tried a few things, if anyone would like to comment. I steered clear of
> adding gluten and developed what was there a bit more, made a less sticky
> dough, and worked on shaping a bit (though not the swirl thing yet),
> probably could have proofed longer.
>
> http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
> hutchndi
>
>

HUTCHNDI wrote:
> Tried a few things, if anyone would like to comment. I steered clear
of
> adding gluten and developed what was there a bit more, made a less
sticky
> dough, and worked on shaping a bit (though not the swirl thing yet),
> probably could have proofed longer.
>
> http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
> hutchndi

Still a lousy bread to me<g>.
You are too anxious to get things right at one time, but
unfortunately don't even have enough baking experience to warrant a
quick solution. Further you are not willing to try new things nor are
open to other suggestions.
I realize you are not really serious about getting your problem solved
after all! It is clear.....
As The logic of your intention and the kind of recipe you are using do
not match!

Roy wrote to hutchndi:


> You are too anxious to get things right at one time, but
> unfortunately don't even have enough baking experience to warrant a
> quick solution. Further you are not willing to try new things nor are
> open to other suggestions.
> I realize you are not really serious about getting your problem solved
> after all! It is clear.....
> As The logic of your intention and the kind of recipe you are using do
> not match!


Hey Roy

Helpful and courteous as always...
You came to this world as an experienced baker and you never took a
detour on your way to excellence, did you??
As you obviously know a recipe that fits hutchndis intention: go ahead
and give it to him.
Otherwise why do you bother to write at all?

....
> Still a lousy bread to me<g>.
....

This <g>-thing makes things even worse...


Joschi


--
Address to mail me:
Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:

non_tox ::AT:: web :OT:: de

Har!....har!... ....Joschi,,,,are you hutchindi's devoted partner to be
so concerned about her?
Accept it...
There is no magic recipe that is panacea for (her or his ) problem. But
Just plain common sense!....
.. If mathematically speaking he or she believes that the shortest
distance between two points is a crooked curve then what can you do
about it? What I mean is ( for example) if she insist in loading the
dough with ballast,then molding it loosely and expect it to rise like
a balloon and reach the pan rim( even with low dough weight) and come
out free from holes then what is the point of spoiling (his or her)
fun?
Okay tell your Fraulin ,,, keep practicing her baking style ,,,hoping
that luck will smile on her and the ' bread faeries' will took pity on
the dough to bring it up to her expectation.

>This <g>-thing makes things even worse...

Beware Herr Joschi....
That is the evil sinister grin..of bracula( bread dracula ).... He
had risen from Breadsylvania.!
Hurry up .... .... Make a batch of roasted garlic embedded
sourdough, cool it rapidly , slice it evenly and strung it up like a
necklace, and hang in your neck to protect yourself from the yeast
raised fangs of Bracula.
Make some Sourdough French bread sticks. Tie two bread to form a cross
shape and hang in front of your door ! But don't forget to hold
one of such cross.
Get some hooch..... rub it on your skin so Bracula will not touch
you!

Har!....har....har....har....!

?

Har!....har!... ....Joschi,,,,are you hutchindi's devoted partner to be
so concerned about her?
Accept it...
There is no magic recipe that is panacea for (her or his ) problem. But
Just plain common sense!....
.. If mathematically speaking he or she believes that the shortest
distance between two points is a crooked curve then what can you do
about it? What I mean is ( for example) if she insist in loading the
dough with ballast,then molding it loosely and expect it to rise like
a balloon and reach the pan rim( even with low dough weight) and come
out free from holes then what is the point of spoiling (his or her)
fun?
Okay tell your Fraulin ,,, keep practicing her baking style ,,,hoping
that luck will smile on her and the ' bread faeries' will took pity on
the dough to bring it up to her expectation.

>This <g>-thing makes things even worse...

Beware Herr Joschi....
That is the evil sinister grin..of bracula( bread dracula ).... He
had risen from Breadsylvania.!
Hurry up .... .... Make a batch of roasted garlic embedded
sourdough, cool it rapidly , slice it evenly and strung it up like a
necklace, and hang in your neck to protect yourself from the yeast
raised fangs of Bracula.
Make some Sourdough French bread sticks. Tie two bread to form a cross
shape and hang in front of your door ! But don't forget to hold
one of such cross.
Get some hooch..... rub it on your skin so Bracula will not touch
you!

Har!....har....har....har....!

looks to me like hutchndi is following the right process: try things and
see what happens, ask for advice and ignore some of it. that'll work
eventually and he's not eating wonder bread while he figures it out! i
think he's ok...

"Roy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> HUTCHNDI wrote:
>> Tried a few things, if anyone would like to comment. I steered clear
> of
>> adding gluten and developed what was there a bit more, made a less
> sticky
>> dough, and worked on shaping a bit (though not the swirl thing yet),
>> probably could have proofed longer.
>>
>> http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>>
>> hutchndi
>
> Still a lousy bread to me<g>.
> You are too anxious to get things right at one time, but
> unfortunately don't even have enough baking experience to warrant a
> quick solution. Further you are not willing to try new things nor are
> open to other suggestions.
> I realize you are not really serious about getting your problem solved
> after all! It is clear.....
> As The logic of your intention and the kind of recipe you are using do
> not match!
>

"TradinDude" in message=20
ink.net...
advised "hutchndi"

> try things and see what happens, ask for advice and ignore some of it.

Ignore all of it, but chuckle your way through the queue of idiots who
surmise they know a smidgen more than you do, and who fanaticize
they have the talent to set you straight. =20

> that'll work eventually ...

Works for generating long threads. Your thread is so huge already that
it is having babies. You are up for the Long Thread of the Month award
as well as the ones for Most Pathetic Posting and Blurriest Photos.

--
DickA

____________________
Please see also: =

"Anybody who considers his sorry loaves look slightly better than yours=20
now feels qualified as an advice giver"=20
Q.E.D.

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

"TradinDude" in message
ink.net...
advised "hutchndi"

> try things and see what happens, ask for advice and ignore some of it.

Ignore all of it, but chuckle your way through the queue of idiots who
surmise they know a smidgen more than you do, and who fanaticize
they have the talent to set you straight.

> that'll work eventually ...

Works for generating long threads. Your thread is so huge already that
it is having babies. You are up for the Long Thread of the Month award
as well as the ones for Most Pathetic Posting and Blurriest Photos.

--
DickA

____________________
Please see also:

"Anybody who considers his sorry loaves look slightly better than yours
now feels qualified as an advice giver"
Q.E.D.


Dick, you are a gem. As you so elegantly put it, I am by no means a seasoned
baker or a good photographer or speller, and it seems especially not good at
getting across what I am trying to say in a post, this being my only reason
for making that webpage anyways. I am certainly not trying to show off my
baking skills or my digital photography. When I started the "Bubbles"
thread, it seemed some were getting the wrong idea of where the bubbles were
forming, and when someone else posted the link to german pics with the
different crust bubbles, I figured maybe I should just try and put a pic out
there.

Perhaps I should have called my next post: My Pathetic Webpage

Anyways, I consider all your suggestions, and attempt to incorporate what I
can into my few weekly bakings. Perhaps one day I will get it right, and
another day I will be able to afford the digital camera with the optical
zoom that I want that I can take out on the Great Swamp & Big River and take
beautiful pictures of the ospreys nesting there. And maybe some better
bread pics for you.


hutchndi

HUTCHNDI wrote:
> Tried a few things, if anyone would like to comment. I steered clear of
> adding gluten and developed what was there a bit more, made a less sticky
> dough, and worked on shaping a bit (though not the swirl thing yet),
> probably could have proofed longer.
>
> http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
> hutchndi
>
>
So hutchndi... how do YOU like it?
To me it looks quite good.

For a bit more tang you could leave the sourdough (Your 1 1/2 cup plus
the 2 cups of flour and water) a bit longer. I leave mine for at least
12 and up to 16 hours.
And for more gluten I would take the whole flours for the sourdough and
the AP flour for the final dough (just switching places). This would
save the gluten in your AP flour for the bake.

I hope I could explain my ideas.

Joschi

--
Address to mail me:
Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:

non_tox ::AT:: web :OT:: de

hutchndi,

honestly, hard to say from just a picture. at first glace it looks like it
might be a bit underproofed... however, the correct proof depends (among
other things) on hydration. what i'm saying is, depending on how dry your
dough was, this may actually be right on target. if you're not happy with
it (want a looser crumb, more holes) then you're gonna have to increase the
hydration. i didn't do any calculations based on your recipe, but it looks
too dry to me.

15 minutes is also a lot of hand kneading.

i would not add gluten for a regular bread. flours in europe are generally
lower gluten potential than ours and they make ok bread over there, don't
they? imho, save the gluten for bagels and wierd experiments with wierd
grains!

do exactly the same thing you just did but more h2o in the dough and see
where that gets you maybe?

"HUTCHNDI" > wrote in message
news:fC9de.85$2J6.52@lakeread06...
> Tried a few things, if anyone would like to comment. I steered clear of
> adding gluten and developed what was there a bit more, made a less sticky
> dough, and worked on shaping a bit (though not the swirl thing yet),
> probably could have proofed longer.
>
> http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
> hutchndi
>
>

HUTCHNDI wrote:
> Tried a few things, if anyone would like to comment. I steered clear of
> adding gluten and developed what was there a bit more, made a less sticky
> dough, and worked on shaping a bit (though not the swirl thing yet),
> probably could have proofed longer.
>
> http://members.cox.net/hutchberryhome/index.htm
>
> hutchndi
>
>
So hutchndi... how do YOU like it?
To me it looks quite good.

For a bit more tang you could leave the sourdough (Your 1 1/2 cup plus
the 2 cups of flour and water) a bit longer. I leave mine for at least
12 and up to 16 hours.
And for more gluten I would take the whole flours for the sourdough and
the AP flour for the final dough (just switching places). This would
save the gluten in your AP flour for the bake.

I hope I could explaain my ideas.

Joschi

--
Address to mail me:
Um mir eine Nachricht zu schicken:

non_tox ::AT:: web :OT:: de