I've been reading this newsgroup for a while and googling for answers to
questions about making bread.

A little background, for the past year I've been making wine for the past
year on the same package of wine yeast I started with then. Seems that
sludge on the bottom still contains enough living yeast to ferment a new
64oz bottle of grape juice. But I was still throwing away a lot of the
goop. But then it occured to me that if that yeast could make alcohol, it
might also make bread rise. Early experiments produced a bread with decent
taste, just a little tough around the edges and not too fluffy. So I read
up on this starter business and this time added flour and water to the
sludge and just let it sit on the counter for a few days with the cap
loosely on. Every now and then I'd tighten the cap and give it a good
shake. The bottle would harden up as CO2 was released. I never did see any
"hooch". But it did have an alcohol smell.

I know you guys talk about using a bowl, but I thought this would be a lot
"cleaner" and easier. Less spillage potential etc. But naturally, with time
this stuff did ferment and I poured some into a bowl added flour and mixed
then kneaded. I think kneading is a VERY important step in this whole
process. You can't really mix the stuff with a spoon all that effectively
you just have to lift it out and work it with your hands. It tires your
arms, but it's important I believe.

I put this glob of well kneaded dough back in the bowl and covered it with a
damp washcloth. I held it there with those spring loaded clamps you often
see used to hold tarps to one thing or another. The ones with the orange
plastic grips, yeah, those things.

I left it for an hour and a half. In that time it did rise a lot. More
than previous bread attempts. I punched it down and left it for another
hour or so.

Then after reading in here that dough that dries out on the top tends to not
rise much, I sprayed a thin coat of oil on a 7x7 --roughly-- pyrex dish, and
placed the dough top down on that. I figured the damp bottom would give the
dough the ability to get more rising in before it dried over. I made no
attempt to punch it down again. I was afraid it might not come back up!
This time I left it uncovered in the oven for 3-4 hours. When I came home
I checked the oven and WOW had it ever risen! I turned on the oven @350 and
20 minutes later a beautiful golden brown loaf was sitting there. The crust
was crisp and the innards light and fluffy. I forgot to add salt. But I
don't know how much difference that would have made.

I typed all this to maybe encourage all the other newbies that it can be
done and is easy and forgiving. Note that my starter has a thin
consistency. This is contrary to what I read, but I think is much easier to
work with and heck, if it works, why not.

So if you have any advice or suggestions, please share.

thanks.

--
billb
Every man has his price except the honest man. You get him for nothing.

In rec.food.sourdough billb wrote:

> A little background, for the past year I've been making wine for the past
> year on the same package of wine yeast I started with then. Seems that
> sludge on the bottom still contains enough living yeast to ferment a new
> 64oz bottle of grape juice.
....

The book "English Bread and Yeast Cookery" by Elizabeth David
contains a detailed description of the process you seem to be
describing.

This book is a classic, and is highly recommended.

--
Jeffrey Sheinberg
for email addr: remove "l1." and change ".invalid" to ".net"

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:10:40 -0700, billb wrote:

[snip]

> I forgot to add salt. But I
> don't know how much difference that would have made.

[snip]

> So if you have any advice or suggestions, please share.
>

Next time, add salt. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

> thanks.

--Mac

What a doofus you you are!

That guy describes in detail his great "liquid" sourdough method which
is in it's way unique and all you bring out is "add salt".

Duh!

And then the "sorry... couldn't" remark - is it compulsive idiocy you
are suffering from?

Billb - great going, I love your post and method!


Samartha

Mac wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:10:40 -0700, billb wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
>>I forgot to add salt. But I
>>don't know how much difference that would have made.
>
>
> [snip]
>
>
>>So if you have any advice or suggestions, please share.
>>
>
>
> Next time, add salt. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
>
>
>>thanks.
>
>
> --Mac
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>
>

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 08:45:16 -0600, Samartha Deva wrote:

> What a doofus you you are!
>
> That guy describes in detail his great "liquid" sourdough method which
> is in it's way unique and all you bring out is "add salt".
>
> Duh!
>
> And then the "sorry... couldn't" remark - is it compulsive idiocy you
> are suffering from?
>
> Billb - great going, I love your post and method!
>
>
> Samartha
>

Sheesh! Point taken. In the future I will try to be more sensitive.

Maybe you could lighten up a notch or two yourself? Nobody likes being
called a doofus, or accused of compulsive idiocy.

FWIW, in my experience, salt affects the taste of sourdough bread much
more than it does the texture, appearance, or rising characteristics. So
the OP's bread will probably come out just as good with salt, provided he
makes it the same way (except for the salt).

--Mac


> Mac wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:10:40 -0700, billb wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>
>>>I forgot to add salt. But I
>>>don't know how much difference that would have made.
>>
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>
>>>So if you have any advice or suggestions, please share.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Next time, add salt. (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
>>
>>
>>>thanks.
>>
>>
>> --Mac
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>>
>> http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>>
>>

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:10:40 -0700, billb wrote:

> I've been reading this newsgroup for a while and googling for answers to
> questions about making bread.
>
> A little background, for the past year I've been making wine for the past
> year on the same package of wine yeast I started with then. Seems that
> sludge on the bottom still contains enough living yeast to ferment a new
> 64oz bottle of grape juice. But I was still throwing away a lot of the
> goop. But then it occured to me that if that yeast could make alcohol, it
> might also make bread rise. Early experiments produced a bread with decent
> taste, just a little tough around the edges and not too fluffy. So I read
> up on this starter business and this time added flour and water to the
> sludge and just let it sit on the counter for a few days with the cap
> loosely on. Every now and then I'd tighten the cap and give it a good
> shake. The bottle would harden up as CO2 was released. I never did see any
> "hooch". But it did have an alcohol smell.
>
> I know you guys talk about using a bowl,

Actually a lot of people keep their starter in a glass jar. It is easier
to gauge when it has doubled, or whatever, if the container has straight
side walls. So I think your method of building up a starter is on-track.
Of course starting from wine yeast is a novel and interesting difference.

> but I thought this would be a lot
> "cleaner" and easier. Less spillage potential etc. But naturally, with time
> this stuff did ferment and I poured some into a bowl added flour and mixed
> then kneaded. I think kneading is a VERY important step in this whole
> process. You can't really mix the stuff with a spoon all that effectively
> you just have to lift it out and work it with your hands. It tires your
> arms, but it's important I believe.
>

So, at this stage, how liquidy was it? Did you keep track of hydration
level and all that, or did you just add enough flour to keep it from being
sticky?

> I put this glob of well kneaded dough back in the bowl and covered it with a
> damp washcloth. I held it there with those spring loaded clamps you often
> see used to hold tarps to one thing or another. The ones with the orange
> plastic grips, yeah, those things.
>

;-)

> I left it for an hour and a half. In that time it did rise a lot. More
> than previous bread attempts. I punched it down and left it for another
> hour or so.
>
> Then after reading in here that dough that dries out on the top tends to not
> rise much, I sprayed a thin coat of oil on a 7x7 --roughly-- pyrex dish, and
> placed the dough top down on that. I figured the damp bottom would give the
> dough the ability to get more rising in before it dried over. I made no
> attempt to punch it down again. I was afraid it might not come back up!
> This time I left it uncovered in the oven for 3-4 hours. When I came home
> I checked the oven and WOW had it ever risen! I turned on the oven @350 and
> 20 minutes later a beautiful golden brown loaf was sitting there. The crust
> was crisp and the innards light and fluffy. I forgot to add salt. But I
> don't know how much difference that would have made.
>

It sounds like you baked the bread in the pyrex. Is that correct? Did you
have any trouble getting the loaf out of the dish? I have found that olive
oil doesn't work very well for greasing bread pans, but butter works very
well.

Also, did you take the loaf out of the oven and pre-heat the oven, or did
you just turn the oven on while the loaf was in there? I have had
promising looking loaves collapse when I took them out of the oven
while I preheated it.

Also, did you slash the loaf at any point in the process?

> I typed all this to maybe encourage all the other newbies that it can be
> done and is easy and forgiving. Note that my starter has a thin
> consistency. This is contrary to what I read, but I think is much easier to
> work with and heck, if it works, why not.
>
> So if you have any advice or suggestions, please share.
>
> thanks.

Personally, I don't think that drying out stops the bread from rising. The
force of the rising bread will just crack the dry shell and give an
odd-shaped loaf. This has happened to me quite a few times, and I have
tried a couple of different things to keep it from drying out, such as
oiling the top, applying wet paper towels, and applying saran wrap. The
saran wrap works, but as the bread rises, the saran wrap gets tight, so it
has to be periodically peeled off and replaced. Maybe the best thing would
be to just spray the loaf with a spray bottle every little while.

I can see how keeping the loaf in a bowl (or breadpan, for that matter!)
during its final rise could be advantageous because I often have problems
with sourdough spreading out instead of rising up when I allow it to
take its final rise on a baking sheet.

so, I think you have discovered a good method for making sourdough. Any
chance of posting some pictures somewhere?

Also, I apologize for my earlier post about the salt. From the way
Samartha reacted, it obviously didn't come across as anything like a joke,
which is how it was intended.

Keep up the good work.

--Mac

Mac wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:10:40 -0700, billb wrote:
>
>
>>I've been reading this newsgroup for a while and googling for answers to
>>questions about making bread.
>>
>>A little background, for the past year I've been making wine for the past
>>year on the same package of wine yeast I started with then. Seems that
>>sludge on the bottom still contains enough living yeast to ferment a new
>>64oz bottle of grape juice. But I was still throwing away a lot of the
>>goop. But then it occured to me that if that yeast could make alcohol, it
>>might also make bread rise. Early experiments produced a bread with decent
>>taste, just a little tough around the edges and not too fluffy. So I read
>>up on this starter business and this time added flour and water to the
>>sludge and just let it sit on the counter for a few days with the cap
>>loosely on. Every now and then I'd tighten the cap and give it a good
>>shake. The bottle would harden up as CO2 was released. I never did see any
>>"hooch". But it did have an alcohol smell.
>>
>>I know you guys talk about using a bowl,
>
>
> Actually a lot of people keep their starter in a glass jar. It is easier
> to gauge when it has doubled, or whatever, if the container has straight
> side walls. So I think your method of building up a starter is on-track.
> Of course starting from wine yeast is a novel and interesting difference.
>
>
>>but I thought this would be a lot
>>"cleaner" and easier. Less spillage potential etc. But naturally, with time
>>this stuff did ferment and I poured some into a bowl added flour and mixed
>>then kneaded. I think kneading is a VERY important step in this whole
>>process. You can't really mix the stuff with a spoon all that effectively
>>you just have to lift it out and work it with your hands. It tires your
>>arms, but it's important I believe.
>>
>
>
> So, at this stage, how liquidy was it? Did you keep track of hydration
> level and all that, or did you just add enough flour to keep it from being
> sticky?
>
>
>>I put this glob of well kneaded dough back in the bowl and covered it with a
>>damp washcloth. I held it there with those spring loaded clamps you often
>>see used to hold tarps to one thing or another. The ones with the orange
>>plastic grips, yeah, those things.
>>
>
>
> ;-)
>
>
>>I left it for an hour and a half. In that time it did rise a lot. More
>>than previous bread attempts. I punched it down and left it for another
>>hour or so.
>>
>>Then after reading in here that dough that dries out on the top tends to not
>>rise much, I sprayed a thin coat of oil on a 7x7 --roughly-- pyrex dish, and
>>placed the dough top down on that. I figured the damp bottom would give the
>>dough the ability to get more rising in before it dried over. I made no
>>attempt to punch it down again. I was afraid it might not come back up!
>>This time I left it uncovered in the oven for 3-4 hours. When I came home
>>I checked the oven and WOW had it ever risen! I turned on the oven @350 and
>>20 minutes later a beautiful golden brown loaf was sitting there. The crust
>>was crisp and the innards light and fluffy. I forgot to add salt. But I
>>don't know how much difference that would have made.
>>
>
>
> It sounds like you baked the bread in the pyrex. Is that correct? Did you
> have any trouble getting the loaf out of the dish? I have found that olive
> oil doesn't work very well for greasing bread pans, but butter works very
> well.
>
> Also, did you take the loaf out of the oven and pre-heat the oven, or did
> you just turn the oven on while the loaf was in there? I have had
> promising looking loaves collapse when I took them out of the oven
> while I preheated it.
>
> Also, did you slash the loaf at any point in the process?
>
>
>>I typed all this to maybe encourage all the other newbies that it can be
>>done and is easy and forgiving. Note that my starter has a thin
>>consistency. This is contrary to what I read, but I think is much easier to
>>work with and heck, if it works, why not.
>>
>>So if you have any advice or suggestions, please share.
>>
>>thanks.
>
>
> Personally, I don't think that drying out stops the bread from rising. The
> force of the rising bread will just crack the dry shell and give an
> odd-shaped loaf. This has happened to me quite a few times, and I have
> tried a couple of different things to keep it from drying out, such as
> oiling the top, applying wet paper towels, and applying saran wrap. The
> saran wrap works, but as the bread rises, the saran wrap gets tight, so it
> has to be periodically peeled off and replaced. Maybe the best thing would
> be to just spray the loaf with a spray bottle every little while.
>
> I can see how keeping the loaf in a bowl (or breadpan, for that matter!)
> during its final rise could be advantageous because I often have problems
> with sourdough spreading out instead of rising up when I allow it to
> take its final rise on a baking sheet.
>
> so, I think you have discovered a good method for making sourdough. Any
> chance of posting some pictures somewhere?
>
> Also, I apologize for my earlier post about the salt. From the way
> Samartha reacted, it obviously didn't come across as anything like a joke,
> which is how it was intended.
>
> Keep up the good work.
>
> --Mac
>
just tying the proofing loaf ( in its container) up in a grocery store
plastic bag works well for me, in or out of the fridge.
Ellen

>
> So, at this stage, how liquidy was it? Did you keep track of hydration
> level and all that, or did you just add enough flour to keep it from being
> sticky?
>


it was watery.

> Also, did you take the loaf out of the oven and pre-heat the oven, or did

hell, no, i'm much too lazy for that. I turned it on, took a gander at the
clock and cranked up the computer.

> you just turn the oven on while the loaf was in there? I have had
> promising looking loaves collapse when I took them out of the oven
> while I preheated it.
>
> Also, did you slash the loaf at any point in the process?
>

No. i'll have to save that for next time.

>
> It sounds like you baked the bread in the pyrex. Is that correct?

well, a white pyrex i guess.


Did you
> have any trouble getting the loaf out of the dish? I have found that olive
> oil doesn't work very well for greasing bread pans, but butter works very
> well.
>

using butter is just too messy for my tastes. I used a store brand canola
spray and it worked perfectly.

--
billb http://www.themeatrix.com/
Every man has his price except the honest man. You get him for
nothing.IITYWYBAD

Sounds like your doing a bang up job "billb". Your right, this stuff is only
daunting if you choose to make it that way, either in your kitchen or your
wondrously complicated website instructions. I was so worried about all the
minutia when I started, but (I think I am borrowing from Peter Reinhart
here) that if you put these ingredients together it would be more difficult
for it NOT to work. Most of my own mistakes boil down to allowing things to
go on to long, or not long enough. This thing about the salt, hey, I have
forgotten it too, and I really didn't see that much difference either,
probably because we tend to put something salty (butter, peanut, deli meat)
on the bread. In most non sourdough texts (using yeast) they write that the
salt is very important in slowing down the yeast, else it will "just go
crazy" and over populate your dough before flavor gets a chance to develop.
"It probably does other things too" is another favorite answer around here.

"hutchndi" > wrote in message =
news:J6zte.15940$R21.12564@lakeread06...

> ... This thing about the salt, hey, I have forgotten it too, and I =
really=20
> didn't see that much difference either, probably because we tend=20
> to put something salty (butter, peanut, deli meat) on the bread.

It is very difficult to not notice the effect of salt on yeast activity, =
but
it seems easier for some than for others.

> In most non sourdough texts (using yeast) they write that the salt
> is very important in slowing down the yeast, else it will "just go
> crazy" and over populate your dough before flavor gets a chance=20
> to develop.

"They" say that flavor will not get a chance to develop itself if the
yeast gets crazy? Which "they" is that?

> "It probably does other things too" is another favorite answer=20
> around here.

Whose favorite? Did some nOObie idiot actually say such an=20
insipid thing?

Salt does slow the rise, and quite much. Doubtful that nOObie=20
loaves rise much, if at all, so how would they know?

"Awsome" nOObie bread?

Can we see some photos?

--
DickA

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

> In most non sourdough texts (using yeast) they write that the salt
> is very important in slowing down the yeast, else it will "just go
> crazy" and over populate your dough before flavor gets a chance
> to develop.

"They" say that flavor will not get a chance to develop itself if the
yeast gets crazy? Which "they" is that?

(Guilty here of getting the wording directly off my artisan bread DVD, but
its cetrtainly not the only place I have read it.) hutch

> "It probably does other things too" is another favorite answer
> around here.

Whose favorite? Did some nOObie idiot actually say such an
insipid thing?

(Oh yes, allot more than one. Perhaps if I search my inbox, I could name
them, but I would rather not. Personally, I think its a fine responce, if
your keeping it simple. If you need to know more than that, there are more
than enough rocket science sourdough websites you can spend hours looking
over.) hutch

"hutchndi" > wrote in message =
news:QuBte.15955$R21.6903@lakeread06...
>=20
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...

> > Whose favorite? Did some nOObie idiot actually say such an
> > insipid thing?
=20
> Perhaps if I search my inbox, I could name them, but I would=20
> rather not.

Yes, definitely, some things are best left unsaid/unattributed!
=20
> If you need to know more than that, there are more
> than enough rocket science sourdough websites you=20
> can spend hours looking over.

Yeah, baby -- the TRUTH is definitely out there ...

Somewhere ... ...

Yeah ...

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:11:35 +0000, Dick Adams wrote:
[snip]
> Salt does slow the rise, and quite much. Doubtful that nOObie
> loaves rise much, if at all, so how would they know?
>
[snip]
Can you quantify how much the salt slows the rise? I haven't noticed, but
I'm probably not as meticulous as you are. For example, I've never baked
two loaves side-by-side where one had salt and one didn't.

Since I don't like bread without salt, I would never do this. Why bake a
loaf you have no intention of eating? But I have forgotten the salt once
or twice.

Also, how much salt do you use? I use 1.8 g per 100 g of flour. As far as
you know, is there a "critical" concentration where the salt starts to
have more of a retarding effect?

--Mac

On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:54:33 +0000, ellen wickberg wrote:

> Mac wrote:
>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:10:40 -0700, billb wrote:
[snip]

>> Personally, I don't think that drying out stops the bread from rising.
>> The force of the rising bread will just crack the dry shell and give an
>> odd-shaped loaf. This has happened to me quite a few times, and I have
>> tried a couple of different things to keep it from drying out, such as
>> oiling the top, applying wet paper towels, and applying saran wrap. The
>> saran wrap works, but as the bread rises, the saran wrap gets tight, so
>> it has to be periodically peeled off and replaced. Maybe the best thing
>> would be to just spray the loaf with a spray bottle every little while.
>>
[snip]
> just tying the proofing loaf ( in its container) up in a grocery store
> plastic bag works well for me, in or out of the fridge. Ellen

I may try this. Usually I use a baking sheet as a "container," so I might
have to use a pretty big bag. But that is doable.

--Mac

"Mac" > wrote in message=20
news
> Can you quantify how much the salt slows the rise?

http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616/F2

Also, from=20
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff...311b0be08b2b5=
90b39ac3f2c77/download/KAF-04-009%20Salt.pdf

"Salt has a retarding effect on the activity of the yeast. The=20
cell wall of yeast is semi-permeable, and by osmosis it absorbs=20
oxygen and nutrients, as it gives off enzymes and other=20
substances to the dough environment. Water is essential for these=20
yeast activities. Salt by its nature is hygroscopic, that is, it=20
attracts moisture. In the presence of salt, the yeast releases=20
some of its water to the salt by osmosis, and this in turn slows=20
the yeast's fermentation or reproductive activities. If there is=20
an excess of salt in bread dough, the yeast is retarded to the=20
point that there is a marked reduction in volume. If there is no=20
salt, the yeast will ferment too quickly. In this sense, the salt=20
aids the baker in controlling the pace of fermentation.=20
Nevertheless, we should note that a careful usage of yeast,=20
control of dough temperature, and the type, maturity, and amount=20
of preferment used are better tools for fermentation control.=20
Salt quantity, as we have noted, should stay within the 1.8 to 2%=20
range."

In my experience, forgetting ~1.5% (relative to flour weight) of=20
salt results in the rise going about twice as fast.

(OT: Case of bread machine, where the rise time is fixed, the=20
quantities of salt and dry yeast, relative to other quantities,=20
are paramount importance -- that is one case where weight=20
measure makes sense.)

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

Mac > wrote in news
> On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 22:54:33 +0000, ellen wickberg wrote:
>
>> Mac wrote:
>>> On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 21:10:40 -0700, billb wrote:
> [snip]
>
>>> Personally, I don't think that drying out stops the bread from rising.
>>> The force of the rising bread will just crack the dry shell and give an
>>> odd-shaped loaf. This has happened to me quite a few times, and I have
>>> tried a couple of different things to keep it from drying out, such as
>>> oiling the top, applying wet paper towels, and applying saran wrap. The
>>> saran wrap works, but as the bread rises, the saran wrap gets tight, so
>>> it has to be periodically peeled off and replaced. Maybe the best thing
>>> would be to just spray the loaf with a spray bottle every little while.
>>>
> [snip]
>> just tying the proofing loaf ( in its container) up in a grocery store
>> plastic bag works well for me, in or out of the fridge. Ellen
>
> I may try this. Usually I use a baking sheet as a "container," so I might
> have to use a pretty big bag. But that is doable.
>
> --Mac
>
>

Maybe the best method is to put the loaf board into a large styrofoam
cooler, available at Wal-Mart for less than $7. You can put water or ice
in the bottom, set some small bowls in it, and set the board on top of the
bowls. Either way, the air will be moist, and you can spritz the loaves
every few hours to make sure they stay moist.

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:05:52 GMT, Gonorio Dineri
> wrote:

>Either way, the air will be moist, and you can spritz the loaves
>every few hours to make sure they stay moist.

Howdy,

If the air is moist, I would suggest leaving our the spritz:

Too much water on the surface will make the finished loaf
look "mottled."

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Dick Adams" > wrote in
:

>
> "Mac" > wrote in message
> news >
>> Can you quantify how much the salt slows the rise?
>
> http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616/F2
>
> Also, from
> http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff...eb4311b0be08b2
> b590b39ac3f2c77/download/KAF-04-009%20Salt.pdf
>
> "Salt has a retarding effect on the activity of the yeast. The
> cell wall of yeast is semi-permeable, and by osmosis it absorbs
> oxygen and nutrients, as it gives off enzymes and other
> substances to the dough environment. Water is essential for these
> yeast activities. Salt by its nature is hygroscopic, that is, it
> attracts moisture. In the presence of salt, the yeast releases
> some of its water to the salt by osmosis, and this in turn slows
> the yeast's fermentation or reproductive activities. If there is
> an excess of salt in bread dough, the yeast is retarded to the
> point that there is a marked reduction in volume. If there is no
> salt, the yeast will ferment too quickly. In this sense, the salt
> aids the baker in controlling the pace of fermentation.
> Nevertheless, we should note that a careful usage of yeast,
> control of dough temperature, and the type, maturity, and amount
> of preferment used are better tools for fermentation control.
> Salt quantity, as we have noted, should stay within the 1.8 to 2%
> range."
>
> In my experience, forgetting ~1.5% (relative to flour weight) of
> salt results in the rise going about twice as fast.
>
> (OT: Case of bread machine, where the rise time is fixed, the
> quantities of salt and dry yeast, relative to other quantities,
> are paramount importance -- that is one case where weight
> measure makes sense.)
>

I calculate a teaspoon of kosher salt at little over 5 grams.

I do use an analog kitchen scale ($10 at Wal-Mart) to measure my
ingredients, but it does not accurately measure quantities as low as 5
grams. So I measured 4 level measuring cups of kosher salt, and divided
it by 192 (the number of teaspoons per 4 cups).

My normal bread ingredient proportions by weight are these:

1x sponge (50% hydration)
5x flour
3x water
..1x salt (ends up being 2% of the flour's weight)

So, if I have 200 grams of starter, the right amount of salt is 20 grams,
or 4 level teaspoons.

3% salt is, in my opinion, too much, for the bread tastes too salty, no
matter how nice the rise is. 2% leaves me yearning a little.

The higher the percentage of sponge in the recipe, the higher percentage
of salt to dry flour, and lower the percentage of water. If you use the
same weight of flour and sponge, then 3% salt is the right proportion.

"Gonorio Dineri" > wrote in message =
...

> ... I measured 4 level measuring cups of kosher salt, and divided=20
> it by 192 (the number of teaspoons per 4 cups).
> ...

Relatively, you are a mathematical genius, G-man!

Well, by me, the right amount of salt is the amount that will form
a slightly convex pile in the center of my left palm. That is for two
1.5 lb. sourdough loaves. That is for secular salt.

The rise time varies, depending mostly upon ambient temperature,
but also upon the efficacy of the culture refreshment routine, and
upon other things, no doubt.

Nothing rises very well, if at all, in the fridge, so forget about that.

--
Dicky

Hi Dick!

On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:11:35 +0000, Dick Adams wrote:

> Salt does slow the rise, and quite much. Doubtful that nOObie
> loaves rise much, if at all, so how would they know?

I'm a n00bie and I know nothing. But I always put the salt (1 TSP per kilo
flour) into the flour mixture (400g of rye flour/600g of strong white
bread flour) before I add 1 mug of sourdough/1 mug of tsp honey in warm
water and a 1/4 tsp of (German) bread spice into it, and leave it
overnight. I wonder why all Germans around here are crazy for my bread.
Strange, isn't it? LOL

Regards,
Jens

"Jens Richter" > wrote in message =
news
> [ ... ]
> I wonder why all Germans around here are crazy for my bread.
> Strange, isn't it? LOL

When it comes to Germans, there is much to wonder about!

Jens Richter wrote:
> Hi Dick!
>
> On Mon, 20 Jun 2005 14:11:35 +0000, Dick Adams wrote:
>
>
>>Salt does slow the rise, and quite much. Doubtful that nOObie
>>loaves rise much, if at all, so how would they know?
>
>
> I'm a n00bie and I know nothing. But I always put the salt (1 TSP per kilo
> flour) into the flour mixture (400g of rye flour/600g of strong white
> bread flour) before I add 1 mug of sourdough/1 mug of tsp honey in warm
> water and a 1/4 tsp of (German) bread spice

Do you know what's in it?

> into it, and leave it
> overnight. I wonder why all Germans around here are crazy for my bread.
> Strange, isn't it? LOL

On a strangeness scale of 1 - 10, where 10 is highest, this runs on 0.5
by my measures. There are much stranger things but this may depend in
which skin you got stuck.

If you are in US - in most places, Germans are suffering from lack of
decent bread. And the majority of bread eaters (non-Germans) in US don't
know or want to buy decent bread. And it seems that bakers who make
decent bread can't make a living in US. Ergo - Germans keep suffering
and go crazy if decent bread smell is around.

It may have to do that everything is measured only by $$'s.

What you actually do with your mix 60/40 with sourdough and spices is
standard staple in DE: Mischbrot and from that perspective it's no
surprise at all if you know a few more bits of information.

If you are deprived of something for a longer time, this craving is
probably normal.

I make my own (German type) bread to avoid the whole frustration altogether.

Samartha

On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 14:19:08 +0000, Gonorio Dineri wrote:

> "Dick Adams" > wrote in
> :
>
>>
>> "Mac" > wrote in message
>> news >>
>>> Can you quantify how much the salt slows the rise?
>>
>> http://aem.asm.org/cgi/content/full/64/7/2616/F2
>>
>> Also, from
>> http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff...eb4311b0be08b2
>> b590b39ac3f2c77/download/KAF-04-009%20Salt.pdf
>>
>> "Salt has a retarding effect on the activity of the yeast. The
>> cell wall of yeast is semi-permeable, and by osmosis it absorbs
>> oxygen and nutrients, as it gives off enzymes and other
>> substances to the dough environment. Water is essential for these
>> yeast activities. Salt by its nature is hygroscopic, that is, it
>> attracts moisture. In the presence of salt, the yeast releases
>> some of its water to the salt by osmosis, and this in turn slows
>> the yeast's fermentation or reproductive activities. If there is
>> an excess of salt in bread dough, the yeast is retarded to the
>> point that there is a marked reduction in volume. If there is no
>> salt, the yeast will ferment too quickly. In this sense, the salt
>> aids the baker in controlling the pace of fermentation.
>> Nevertheless, we should note that a careful usage of yeast,
>> control of dough temperature, and the type, maturity, and amount
>> of preferment used are better tools for fermentation control.
>> Salt quantity, as we have noted, should stay within the 1.8 to 2%
>> range."
>>
>> In my experience, forgetting ~1.5% (relative to flour weight) of
>> salt results in the rise going about twice as fast.
>>
>> (OT: Case of bread machine, where the rise time is fixed, the
>> quantities of salt and dry yeast, relative to other quantities,
>> are paramount importance -- that is one case where weight
>> measure makes sense.)
>>
>
> I calculate a teaspoon of kosher salt at little over 5 grams.
>
> I do use an analog kitchen scale ($10 at Wal-Mart) to measure my
> ingredients, but it does not accurately measure quantities as low as 5
> grams. So I measured 4 level measuring cups of kosher salt, and divided
> it by 192 (the number of teaspoons per 4 cups).
>
> My normal bread ingredient proportions by weight are these:
>
> 1x sponge (50% hydration)
> 5x flour
> 3x water
> .1x salt (ends up being 2% of the flour's weight)
>
> So, if I have 200 grams of starter, the right amount of salt is 20 grams,
> or 4 level teaspoons.
>
> 3% salt is, in my opinion, too much, for the bread tastes too salty, no
> matter how nice the rise is. 2% leaves me yearning a little.
>
> The higher the percentage of sponge in the recipe, the higher percentage
> of salt to dry flour, and lower the percentage of water. If you use the
> same weight of flour and sponge, then 3% salt is the right proportion.

Hmmm. When I say 1.8 g per 100 g of flour, I mean g of total flour,
including what is in the starter.

--Mac