Greetings to everyone. I have recently discovered the world of soudough
baking, and would like to learn more about the pros, cons, and differences
between various ingredients and other factors in the sourdough process.
I've started a starter from scratch, and it seems to work tolerably. You
can find descriptions of it in the recently created forum
http://sourdough.com.au/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=2 (posted as SourGeek), and
gory historical details at http://www.biology-online.org/biology-
forum/forum-3.html in the Yeast, Chlorine, ... thread (BreadHead). While
the starter does make bread after a fashion, there may be room for
improvement, so it would be nice to work on changing it. Specifically,
I've been wondering about a few issues that seem important:

a) differences in requirements between the phases of the process (starting
the starter, maintaining the starter, growing the sponge, raising the
dough)
b) differences between flour types (white, bread, whole wheat, rye) in each
phase
c) effects of environmental conditions, for instance temp, wetness,
aeration, feeding rate, and bleach

I've found the Q&A and Doctor files here, and Dan Wing's book, all of which
are excellent. Also several other sources. But they don't always agree
with each other, and often don't explain the reasons for their methods. I
don't mind plowing through one or two microbiology books, as long as they
cover yeasts & LB and aren't too far over my head. If you have any hints
or clues that might help, please take your time responding. I'm interested
in developing my own starter rather than buying, and would like to
experiment with it to make it better. Thanks in advance.

Another Dan wrote:

<snip>


> If you have any hints
> or clues that might help, please take your time responding. I'm interested
> in developing my own starter rather than buying, and would like to
> experiment with it to make it better. Thanks in advance.

If you want to start up your own levain, get Laurel Robertson's Bread
Book. It'll be at your local library. She has a solid chapter on making
a starter called desem. It is a very simple technique and from personal
experience about 100% effective. The major requirement is fresh grain.
I find rye works the best but wheat is fine as well.

Will

Hi Dan-
Welcome. You're gunna have fun.

(I get this list in digest once a day so you may have had loads of more
helpful feedback already.)


> I've started a starter from scratch, and it seems to
> work tolerably.

> http://www.biology-online.org/biology-
> forum/forum-3.html in the Yeast, Chlorine, ...
> thread
> (BreadHead).

There are many breadheads <g> more learned than I on this list, but as
a fellow geek I'd say if you've got a bad hard drive toss it, brother.
You can play around with nursing this starter along in hopes that with
time the desirables will win out over the paint guys. Or you can save
your flour and your inquisitive mind for better purposes and start
again. You'll get plenty of opportunity to use that curiosity when it
comes to things like hydration and ferment times. If you cannot bear to
toss it then at least start another one so you can prove to yourself
that you really can easily make a lovely starter from the get-go.

Whether or how not bleaching flour affects where your starter goes use
unbleached, ok? <g>. You're reading Dan Wing (& Alan Scott _Bread
Builders_ ?) and they believe bleached flour will inhibit dough
bacteria. You can find arguements in favor of bleached, not from them
or me <g>. Plus, when you're making simple lean breads all you have is
your flour, a pinch of salt, and the beasties in your starter to give
you flavor.

Many or most of us have made our own starters using a variety of
methods, and have traded for and/or purchased others. I've done all
three and I have my own preferred, at the moment, starter from those.

A new starter will take time to mature so going from flour and water to
good bread isn't something to expect you can get in a week or two. Give
your starter, once it's not a paint thinner one, time to get a bit of
personality and muscle.

> a) differences in requirements between the phases of
> the process
> (starting
> the starter, maintaining the starter, growing the
> sponge, raising the
> dough)

Wing and Scott have a bit of this on p. 61 as you've seen. I like how
Peter Reinhart lays it out in his section "The 12 Stages of Bread".
(_Bread Baker's Apprentice_, Peter Reinhart, another very popular,
useful book. I personally really like this book and after having it out
of the library dozens of times finally bought it.)

> b) differences between flour types (white, bread,
> whole wheat, rye) in
> each
> phase

Off the top of my head when you have whole grains doing a "soaker" can
make the difference between lousy and lovely.

Rye is different; read up on it. Gluten is at about 6-8 % compared to
bread flour of 11.5%< . It gets gummy if you mix it as much as you'd
mix wheat flour. When you do make it, I like to add ground caraway
which I get at Indian shops.

> I've found the Q&A and Doctor files here, and Dan
> Wing's book, all of
> which
> are excellent. Also several other sources. But
> they
> don't always
> agree
> with each other, and often don't explain the reasons
> for their methods.

They don't agree? <g>
Oh, isn't that the fun part?

(And if you haven't already stumbled upon Samartha's site I bet you'll
enjoy it, also http://samartha.net/SD/index.html )


> If
> you have any
> hints
> or clues that might help, please take your time
> responding. I'm
> interested
> in developing my own starter rather than buying, and
> would like to
> experiment with it to make it better. Thanks in
> advance.

hints and clues: Have fun! Enjoy!

I think you will find there is a full spectrum of bakers in the
sourdough world from the very specific to the very
fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants. (Do you share that idiom with us
downunder?) I'm one of the latter but I avidly read and respect and
learn from the former.

Good luck!
-Marylouise in the San Francisco Bay

Will:
> to start up your own levain, get Laurel Robertson's Bread Book.
> I find rye works the best but wheat is fine as well.
Thanks for the ref, I'm waiting for it. King Arthur's
"Baker's Companion" also has a recipe that starts with rye.

mlouise007:
(This snippet is out of order, but just to clear things up,...)
> I think you will find there is a full spectrum of bakers in the
> sourdough world from the very specific to the very
> fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants. (Do you share that idiom with us
> downunder?)
I'm not down under, that website is just the first match I got on a google
search of "sourdough forum". I'm in the US cornbelt. You can tell by my
"location" on the site.
Sorry if you were expecting an exotic foreigner.
I think knowing the hows and whys actually helps you to be creative or
react to changes that arise, without having to slavishly pore through
cookbooks that might not have the answer anyway. So I think it's possible
to do both.

> You're gunna have fun.
Thanks for responding. Here's the first fun I had, that got me started:
Finding I had a little extra time on my hands, I checked out
Bernard Clayton's "New Complete Book of Bread" (30th ann. ed.).
I didn't want to keep buying yeast, and eventually ran into the
sourdough chapter. That was it, that's what I wanted to do.
Since I was/am a beginner, I decided to start with the simplest recipe.
That was the honey starter that uses active dry yeast.
Here's the recipe:

1 package dry yeast
2 1/2 c warm water (105-115F)
2T honey
2 1/2 c bread or all-purpose flour

Combine all ingredients in a quart jar with a tight fitting cover.
Seal the jar and let the mix ferment in a warm place for 5 days,
stirring daily.
Store in the fridge.
Replenish with water and flour in equal proportions.

Just to provide some context of what Clayton considers a "warm place",
he considers 90F/32C "perfect", and 100F/38C "acceptable".

Let's see. Place 4-5 cups of gas-producing material in a quart container
(if you can!), seal with a tight lid, and keep in conditions that
encourage copious activity. That's not a starter, it's a BOMB.
I used a 1 3/4 qt jar to be safe, and still lost some.

Now store for 5 days before using. I stored mine for 2 HOURS,
and it looked like the yeast was tearing the flour to shreds.
There was a thick layer of silt at the bottom, and there were
so many bubbles in the bulk that it was floating above
a thick layer of hooch.
That is the most absurd recipe I have ever seen in my life.

> if you've got a bad hard drive toss it, brother.
The original toxic batch is now compost.

> You can play around with nursing this starter along in hopes
> that with time the desirables will win out over the paint guys.
I'm very interested in that, how to keep a starter stable,
or change it as desired by varying its evironment.

> Or you can save your flour and your inquisitive mind
> for better purposes and start again.
There are now two new starters. One emphasizes bread flour with
some rye, the other one is the other way around for comparison.

> Whether or how not bleaching flour affects where
> your starter goes use unbleached, ok? <g>.
The cheapest unbleached anything around here is about 35c/lb.
Bleached white is available for as little as 18c/lb.
I'm not really a natural-foods buff, so I only care about bleach
if (and at whichever stage(s)) it really makes a significant difference.

> A new starter will take time to mature so going from flour and water to
> good bread isn't something to expect you can get in a week or two.
It's been 80F/27C around here, and all of the new starters
have been bubbling their brains out after a couple days.
The only problem is I may be infecting the new ones with
old microbes through the jars, spoons, etc.

>> a) differences in requirements between the phases
> Wing and Scott have a bit of this on p. 61 as you've seen.
I have a paperback edition, I see a new starter on p58
(ch3, "Obtaining or Creating a Natural Leaven").
He uses 1:1 rye:wheat throughout, and doesn't say what kind to
use after that (ch1, "Breadmaking: How I Make Bread", p5-7).

The King Arthur recipe starts out with 100% rye,
and switches to feeding with 100% white.
So I guess there really is a difference.

> _Bread Baker's Apprentice_, Peter Reinhart
Thanks for the ref.

>> b) differences between flour types
> Off the top of my head when you have whole grains doing a "soaker" can
> make the difference between lousy and lovely.
? I'm not familiar with that.

>> sources ... don't always agree with each other
> They don't agree? <g>
>Oh, isn't that the fun part?
No Marylouise, it is not. I can tell you're taunting me
mercilessly because I'm such a newbie, aren't you, 007?

Thanks for the comments, they're always appreciated.

On Wednesday, July 13, 2005, at 04:02 PM, Another Dan wrote:

> Will:
>> to start up your own levain, get Laurel Robertson's Bread Book.
>> I find rye works the best but wheat is fine as well.
> Thanks for the ref, I'm waiting for it. King Arthur's
> "Baker's Companion" also has a recipe that starts with rye.
>

There's another place you should look for starter help:

http://samartha.net/SD/index.html

Lots of good info: science, as well as practical instruction.

Will

Hi (Another) Dan!

> I'm not down under, that website is just the first match I got on a google
> search of "sourdough forum". I'm in the US cornbelt. You can tell by my
> "location" on the site.

Well, cornbelt is excellent! I went to college and grad school in
Indiana. Hop on your bike at the college and in 3 minutes you're
sailing along the pike with corn as far as the eye can see.

You'll have to instruct me maybe off list (off topic) how to tell your
location on the site. I started using rec groups years ago but then
dropped off and am now used to yahoo groups. I'm dyslexic and find the
layout of rec groups visually very hard to read, but this is such a
good group I do try my best to untangle the tangled words I see <g>.


> I think knowing the hows and whys actually helps you to be creative or
> react to changes that arise, without having to slavishly pore through
> cookbooks that might not have the answer anyway. So I think it's possible
> to do both.

Couldn't agree more. If you could see my Wing & Scott, and Reinhart,
and others you'd see all the yellow highlights and notes in the
margins. Have you read _On Food and Cooking_, by Harold McGee, recently
revised? He's great fun and fascination, too.

> Here's the recipe:
>
> 1 package dry yeast
> 2 1/2 c warm water (105-115F)
> 2T honey
> 2 1/2 c bread or all-purpose flour

> Bernard Clayton's "New Complete Book of Bread" (30th ann. ed.).

Well I guess he's done something right for 29 years. This one sounds
like a bomb to me too with all that content and so little space.

So, most sourdough folks will say if you use commercial yeast you're
not making a sourdough starter. Somewhere in my readings, from them
that do work in labs, was said that over time the natural yeast and
bacteria muscle out the commercial yeast anyway. (Oh maybe it's the
Ganzle interview in Wing & Scott.) There are many methods for making a
starter which contains no commercial yeast. Some of them use a lot of
flour to get to fruition.

> p58(ch3, "Obtaining or Creating a Natural Leaven").
> He uses 1:1 rye:wheat throughout, and doesn't say what kind to
> use after that (ch1, "Breadmaking: How I Make Bread", p5-7).

You're on to one there. Day three they seem to say use unbleached or
whole wheat. All this stuff about tossing out half of it... just bake
something with it... well, compost ok, but why not bake? (I know you
want to make your own, and I've made my own several times over the
years and enjoyed doing so. Again, you can also get some for free from
some folks here, including me.)


> > if you've got a bad hard drive toss it, brother.
> The original toxic batch is now compost.

Here, here! Onward and upward.


> > Whether or how not bleaching flour affects where
> > your starter goes use unbleached, ok? <g>.
> The cheapest unbleached anything around here is about 35c/lb.
> Bleached white is available for as little as 18c/lb.
> I'm not really a natural-foods buff, so I only care about bleach
> if (and at whichever stage(s)) it really makes a significant difference.

Well, I tried my best, LOL.

One way to find out is to bake with both at some point. I think I pay
about 35c/lb in bulk for unbleached bread flour, and about 60c/lb for
organic bread. If you start really getting busy you might end up buying
in bulk mail order as some folks do. I do like King Arthur and use it
sometimes as well. I get it at Trader Joes. Don't know if TJs has
arrived in your neck of the woods yet, or check here
http://www.kingarthurflour.com/flour/where.php For getting used to the
whole process it sure makes sense to watch the cents, but don't give up
on the idea of trying other flours to see what, if any, difference you
notice. (I apparently haven't given up. I'll shut up about it. LOL )

Someone on one of the lists said he/she uses the cheapest stuff they
can find for maintaining their starter and I liked that idea, tho I
don't use much for just maintaining anyway. I keep very small amounts
of starter now.

> It's been 80F/27C around here, and all of the new starters
> have been bubbling their brains out after a couple days.
> The only problem is I may be infecting the new ones with
> old microbes through the jars, spoons, etc.

It seems to me my various starters remain as distinct as they ever
were. I wash my hands pretty well (I tend to use my hands to mix the
starter and water together) and wash the bowl and the whisk but
certainly there must be stuff floating around etc. If anything is
changing mine it would be my lack of precision in hydration or other
factors that might favor the bacteria over the yeast or visa versa. I
do think it's good to really clean your container when you refresh the
starter so you are putting your refreshed starter back into a nice
clean container. Some people might speak up for the value of not doing
so and leaving old starter dried up on the sides. (Another storage
method is a very dry starter surrounded by flour.)


> > _Bread Baker's Apprentice_, Peter Reinhart
> Thanks for the ref.

See what you think. I love the book. He's a delight to "travel" with
on his adventures and, to me, very clear in his presentation.


> >> b) differences between flour types
> > Off the top of my head when you have whole grains doing a "soaker" can
> > make the difference between lousy and lovely.
> ? I'm not familiar with that.

It's another kind of pre-ferment. And maybe, hopefully, someone will
jump in and be more accurate than I am. Instead of having yeast as a
poolish or biga would, it's just a portion of the whole grain component
and the water, that soaks usually "overnight". Whole grains can take
higher hydrations if given the chance and the soaker gives it the
chance.

> >> sources ... don't always agree with each other
> > They don't agree? <g>
> >Oh, isn't that the fun part?
> No Marylouise, it is not. I can tell you're taunting me
> mercilessly because I'm such a newbie, aren't you, 007?

I hope that's a warm wink. No taunting intended. Email can so easily be
misunderstood; I hope mine wasn't. I don't like unkindness on line so I
hope my message came across as warm and inviting as I wished it to be.

I've found that the sources whether published in hard cover or found
online or spoken out loud frequently do have different opinions. I
prefer to throw up my hands and chuckle with the contradictions. It
seems like people from various camps all end up making great bread.
Explore them all. I learn from everyone.

I'm a long time baker, but in no way a pro at sourdough. In fact I
stopped baking bread all together for several years and only in the
past 6 months or so have started up again, and with sourdough have only
been making focaccia at present. Hopefully you'll get more feedback
from them who are doing sourdough bread steadily. I just jumped in with
the hopes of encouraging you as others have been encouraging me.

As for 007, I was a teen when the only real James Bond was on the big
screen, LOL. It's a wave of affection to him, tho folks say he's a jerk
in real life, sigh. I already had a faulty memory when I set up that
yahoo account many years ago so thought it would be something I would
never forget. And indeed have found that all my friends have had no
trouble remembering the address.

Here's hoping some of the many more skilled on the list will come to
your aid.
Enjoy! -Marylouise

"Another Dan" > wrote in message
...
> Will:
>
> > You're gunna have fun.
> Thanks for responding. Here's the first fun I had, that got me started:
> Finding I had a little extra time on my hands, I checked out
> Bernard Clayton's "New Complete Book of Bread" (30th ann. ed.).
> I didn't want to keep buying yeast, and eventually ran into the
> sourdough chapter. That was it, that's what I wanted to do.
> Since I was/am a beginner, I decided to start with the simplest recipe.
> That was the honey starter that uses active dry yeast.
> Here's the recipe:
>
> 1 package dry yeast
> 2 1/2 c warm water (105-115F)
> 2T honey
> 2 1/2 c bread or all-purpose flour
>
Try this recipe for a natural starter/levain. I used this method. The bread
is awesome. The only thing I did different is that I gave my initial starter
two shots of the raisin water. One when I started it. And the other the next
morning.

http://www.thefreshloaf.com/modules/...php?storyid=11

Gordon

On Thursday, July 14, 2005, at 11:26 AM, Gordon Hayes wrote:

> Try this recipe for a natural starter/levain. I used this method. The
> bread
> is awesome. The only thing I did different is that I gave my initial
> starter
> two shots of the raisin water. One when I started it. And the other
> the next
> morning.
>
> http://www.thefreshloaf.com/modules/...php?storyid=11
>
> Gordon
>

The raisin water is very clever.

Will

> wrote in message =
oups.com...

> [ ... ]

> I do think it's good to really clean your container when you refresh =
the
starter so you are putting your refreshed starter back into a nice
clean container. Some people might speak up for the value of not doing
so and leaving old starter dried up on the sides. <

Cheap, one-use chop sticks, having one end flat and rather wide, have
found a place in my kitchen. Wing has recommended feeding a=20
starter to the consistency still, but just, stirrable with a chop stick.
My cheap chop sticks have a flat wide end which is rather good for=20
scraping down the sides of a bottle.

Using bottles ( 8 fl. oz. spice jars) as shown at:
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/starter.html
(scroll down)
the long-interval feeding is done as follows:

1. Add water to half-full, and shake to suspend contents.
2. Pour out all but about a tablespoon-full (level of lower flange).
3. Clean (inner) sides with the broad end of a virgin chop stick.
4. Add flour with a teaspoon to make a barely-stirrable batter.
5. Mark date on label and re-refrigerate for up to 6 months.

> (Another storage method is a very dry starter surrounded by flour.)

(That is the hard way. Probably the most hard one.)

I believe that the method described here is the easiest way,
particularly where multiple cultures are maintained. The simple
handling and the use of a new chop stick for each procedure
constitute relatively sterile conditions, to discourage cross
contamination, and the bottles can be scrubbed down OK
with the stirring stick.

Cleanliness, of course, is next to Godliness, and, admittedly,
sterile procedure is a perversion introduced by humans.

(My most-used culture is renewed, in the way described,=20
monthly or more frequently.)

--=20
Dick Adams
(Sourdough minimalist)
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com
___________________
Sourdough FAQ guide at=20
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

mlouise:
> how to tell your location on the site.
I mean on the Aussie forum.
The poster's location is displayed to the left of each post.

> (I tend to use my hands to mix the starter and water together)
Really?!! I would worry about bacterial contamination.
Actually, you have me using my fingers now to wipe off
the plastic spoon (most of my other spoons are metal).

> I hope that's a warm wink.
Correct. I enjoy pestering people that way.

> All this stuff about tossing out half of it... just bake
> something with it... well, compost ok, but why not bake?
> I keep very small amounts of starter now.

I made a couple pizzas with some extra, but the gluten is kind of
mangled by then. Some bakers suggest biscuits or pancakes.
How long can you store old starter in the fridge before you use it?
Do you have to use it right away?

Another approach that some people mention is what you said, to use only one
or two T's or less of starter when you feed it, so your excess quantities
are small. As long as you always stir the starter well, this should never
be a problem, since even a very small amount already contains bazillions
of microorganisms. I've recently started using even smaller amounts,
in 8oz jars. First I stir the contents very well.
Then I pour almost of it out, leaving only a few dregs in the bottom.
But that's enough. Just add a couple/few Ts of new food, and stir.
That little I don't mind throwing away.

And another point is that, if you're baking large amounts and you can start
a couple days before, you can take your 1T of starter out of the fridge and
just keep feeding it larger and larger amounts, without throwing any out,
until not only do you have tons of starter, but it's also very active from
being fed so much/so long at room temp. If your starter doubles every 12
hours, then 1T will turn into 1c after 2 days, 1qt after 3 days, 1gal after
4 days.


> I do think it's good to really clean your container when you
> refresh the starter so you are putting your refreshed starter
> back into a nice clean container.
Why, ml, are you afraid something might grow in it?
Actually, I do that at least once in a while. It also gets back
to one of my earlier questions: Bacteria seem to like water.
What kind of undesirables would grow on dried starter?

Hi Dan-
I've been off enjoying myself in 100 degree < weather with no AC for
the past 5 days. And since I'm a native of the foggy SF bay area that
translates poorly <g>. Every time I hugged another damp body I was
reminded of my years in IN, LOL!

> > (I tend to use my hands to mix the starter and water together)
> Really?!! I would worry about bacterial contamination.
> Actually, you have me using my fingers now to wipe off
> the plastic spoon (most of my other spoons are metal).

Hee hee.
I did say I'd washed my hands, she pleaded. (Having seen those health
and safety presentations about the zoo that lives on every inch of our
bodies, and those magnified photos are worse than any horror film I can
think of, I do know that washing my hands does not mean there's not
"contamination" <g>.)


> How long can you store old starter in the fridge before you use it?
> Do you have to use it right away?


I've left starters for many months negelected in the fridge. Don't know
about you, but for me life happens and sometimes other priorities take
over in a big way... Sometimes the neglected starter requires that you
treat it well for a week or two in order to persuade it to come back
after being shamelessly ignored. When/if I can't bring something back I
turn to other people's fridges who have some of mine or theirs to give
back to me. I also have dried my starters, and dried versions I've been
given. It's another way to have backup.

I'm not sure I understand your question: Do you have to use it right
away? Once you do the refresh process you will need to build it up and
use it, or put it in the fridge. Have you read that interview with
Michael Ganzle at the back of Wing & Scott? It's one of many
explainations related to that.

> First I stir the contents very well.
> Then I pour almost of it out, leaving only a few dregs in the bottom.
> But that's enough. Just add a couple/few Ts of new food, and stir.
> That little I don't mind throwing away.

That's great. On the occassions when I've been brutally negligent I
think I may have been saved by the fact I happened to have a somewhat
larger, 1/2C ?, amount of funk to work with so that there was, under
the nasty stuff, that dreg you mention of ok goop I could revive when I
had to toss out the rest. And since I forgot to do a controlled study
<g> I can't say whether the really hideous funk stuff would also have
eventually revived perfectly well. Quite possibly it would have. A
couple of us just encouraged someone on another sourdough list to walk
thru the process of saving her "old reliable" which was in a nasty
state, and before long she had done so. I think I'm addressing a
question you didn't ask <g>.

> And another point is that, if you're baking large amounts and you can start
> a couple days before, you can take your 1T of starter out of the fridge and
> just keep feeding it larger and larger amounts, without throwing any out,
> until not only do you have tons of starter, but it's also very active from
> being fed so much/so long at room temp. If your starter doubles every 12
> hours, then 1T will turn into 1c after 2 days, 1qt after 3 days, 1gal after
> 4 days.

That's what I do as well, basically.

> > I do think it's good to really clean your container when you
> > refresh the starter so you are putting your refreshed starter
> > back into a nice clean container.
> Why, ml, are you afraid something might grow in it?

Do you ever open up a jar of jam from the fridge and the whole upper
part of the jar has mold on all the bits of jam stuck up there? It
really annoys me <g>. I try to get all of the mold out, take what I
need for my PB&J sandwich, put the jar back into the fridge and hope it
won't regrow. I notice sometimes it regrows and sometimes it doesn't.
Hmmmm Well, anyway, you won't neglect your starters the way I
sometimes have <g>.

> Actually, I do that at least once in a while. It also gets back
> to one of my earlier questions: Bacteria seem to like water.
> What kind of undesirables would grow on dried starter?

I have not a clue, and they didn't actually seem to injure me or my
starter. In fact it wasn't/isn't all that "dry" inside the jar inside
the fridge. I think I only phrased the washing out bit as a good idea,
not as something for the "must do" list. After all, Another Dan, anyone
who mixes her water and old starter with her hands clearly isn't
thinking sterile <g>.

-Marylouise There's no place like home, especially when it's 30
degrees cooler!

Hi Dick-


> Cheap, one-use chop sticks, having one end flat and rather wide, have
> found a place in my kitchen. Wing has recommended feeding a
> starter to the consistency still, but just, stirrable with a chop stick.
> My cheap chop sticks have a flat wide end which is rather good for
> scraping down the sides of a bottle.

Oh wonderful! I love chop sticks. Another use for them is great!


> Cleanliness, of course, is next to Godliness, and, admittedly,
> sterile procedure is a perversion introduced by humans.

Don't you know it. And cleanliness is not the same as sterile. The
whole business with folks using more of that antibacterial cleaner
which it seems has helped to increase the resistence of the bacteria,
more or less that trying to get sterile at unneeded times has in the
end backfired. They still say the best safeguard for not spreading
illness is good old soap and water, 15 seconds, one round of "Happy
Birthday" or "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" <g>.

I'll definitely try those chop sticks.
-Marylouise

Gordon-
I used a version of this raisin water method years ago and that starter
has done well. I got it from Nancy Silverton's _Breads for the La Brea
Bakery_. -Marylouise

> Try this recipe for a natural starter/levain. I used this method. The bread
> is awesome. The only thing I did different is that I gave my initial starter
> two shots of the raisin water. One when I started it. And the other the next
> morning.
>
> http://www.thefreshloaf.com/modules/...php?storyid=11
>
> Gordon

Will:
> There's another place you should look for starter help:
> http://samartha.net/SD/index.html
Thanks for that. I saw it earlier, but hadn't really read it.
I especially like the excellent nutrition article:
http://www.eap.mcgill.ca/Publications/EAP35.htm

A lot of the site goes beyond what I have the motivation for,
but it certainly does look like good bread.

Gordon Hayes:
> Try this recipe for a natural starter/levain. I used this method.
> http://www.thefreshloaf.com/modules/...php?storyid=11

Thanks for the refs.

Dick Adams:
> Cheap, one-use chop sticks
Thanks for the idea. I have some mini-shishkabob skewers I can use.

mlouise:
>> How long can you store old starter in the fridge before you use it?
> I'm not sure I understand your question
I mean the excess that you make into pancakes or biscuits as an alternative
to composting. If it's already tired when you remove it, what kind of
shape will it be in after another few days or a week in the fridge?
I guess I'm getting used to the small quantities now, which I don't mind
dumping. As I'm getting more experience with the starters, I'm leaving
less and less in the jar when I remove the extra, and the feeding now is
down to two rounded/heaping teaspoons of flour, plus the right amount of
water.

> Do you ever open up a jar of jam from the fridge and the whole upper
> part of the jar has mold on all the bits of jam stuck up there?
So I guess over-dry conditions favor mold. Maybe cleaning the jar really
does help.