G'day all,

After years of recommending that beginners DO NOT try to brew their own
starter (and taking my own advice), I've finally taken the plunge and
decided to see how it all works.

The short version: that stuff is explosive! It's also makin' some mighty
phyne bread. Not very sour yet, but I'm gonna wait to see if it gets there.

I've been baking SD for many years now, and finally figured that it's about
time that I tried to grow one from scratch. I used both Mike's starter
recipe which can be found at:
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/startingastarter.html, as well as Samartha's
recipe at:
http://www.samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html (in two separate containers,
of course).

Mikes method is succinct, Samartha's a bit more verbose. But both worked
well. If you've not done this before, I'd read 'em both and take 'em both
to heart. There's much to be learned, and some repetition won't hurt.

I used Bob's Red Mill whole, dark rye flour. Starting right from the first
day, I got bubbles. But the mixture smelled kinda like a wet dog or
carpet...although nowhere near as friendly! The entire process took at all
of the time suggested--3-days. But yesterday (day 3) they definitely had
the sharp, pungent "sour" smell that I was seeking. So last night (as is my
wont) I started the first primary preferment last night. Both smelled good
(identical, actually). You can follow along at:
http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...dough/SFSD.htm

The second preferment this morning took just over 2-hours before it started
to collapse. At that point I mixed up the final dough. Six stretch&fold
cycles later, it was ready. The final rise took a bare 3-hours. I'd made
two baguette style loaves which were trying to make a break for it by
running off my perforated tray. As recommended, I baked 'em cooler (~400F)
and longer than usual for better crust development. I think the baking time
was too long w/not enough brown. So I'm going to try 425F next time...

The crusts came out nice & crispy, and the interiors had great holes.
Sadly, it'll probably take some time for the real sour taste to develop...as
well as my having to implement some sort of retarding. Due to today's warm
weather, they were working a bit too fast for good flavor development.

But, all in all, they came out great! Thanks to Mike & Samartha for good,
detailed instructions.


Later all,
Dusty

Dusty Bleher wrote:

Keep us posted, sounds great so far...

By the way: You don't drive a white Navigator, do you?
License "SOURDO1", seen in Campbell the other day.

Dave

"Dave Bell" > wrote in message
...
> Dusty Bleher wrote:
>
> Keep us posted, sounds great so far...
I shall.

> By the way: You don't drive a white Navigator, do you?
> License "SOURDO1", seen in Campbell the other day.
Regretfully, no...(:-o)!


Dusty

>
> Dave

"Dusty Bleher" in message
discoursed selfcontentedly, and appreciatively for verbose instructions, =
on the subject of growing one's own starter.

Well, Dusty, it is a bit like growing weeds, and, case of you, of =
inadvertently
sampling your interior atmosphere for whatever residues remain from your
long history of sourdough efforts, conditioned by the usual disregard or
outright contempt for sterile technique.

Case of me, all efforts failed until something came in the mail. After =
that
a high probability of success, but always, given success, pretty much
the same stuff.

--
Dicky

Yeah, my early SD attempts weren't much to write home about. I too didn't
do at all well until I found one of those "store bought", dried SD
mixes...and then I did worse! Boy did that little adventure ever suck big
time!

Then a kind soul reading here took pity on me, and sent me a real starter.
The rest, as they say, is history. Once I learned what it's supposed to
be/look/act/smell/behave like, it wuz eazy...(:-o)! After that, it wuz a
tedious but otherwise simple matter of wading through all of the hype and
other crappola that folks writing about this craft use to embellish or
obfuscate their recipes. Sorting the useful things from the "hand-waving
and voodoo" took some time to learn. But once you figure out how these
critters work...and their proper care and feeding, it becomes relatively
simple.

Mostly what continues to both boggle me and be the source of endless mirth,
is the easy utility of it all. Yet you can read here about folks that
measure things to six decimal places, have a range of test and analysis gear
that would make NASA proud, time events to the sub-nanosecond range,
pre-heat their ovens with all manner of bricks, sticks, rocks, tiles, and
stones to fractional degree values for days on end in order to get things
"just right". When in reality most anything you throw together, if you obey
a few simple strictures, will come out pretty well, no matter what you do
with it. Trust me, it's been (and continues to be) most entertaining!
(:-o)!

Consequently, I always counsel SD baking wanna be's to not start out with
the Albatross already firmly attached... I only wish I'd gotten similar
advice. It might have saved years of frustration and the herky-jerky fits &
starts in my quest in this rewarding endeavor.

Sorry, "Dicky", I would have interleaved my replies in your original message
to make the reading/understanding easier. But some setting in the
formatting you're using seems to have defeated my software's ability to do
that properly.


Regards all,
Dusty
San Jose, Ca.

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

"Dusty Bleher" in message
discoursed selfcontentedly, and appreciatively for verbose instructions, on
the subject of growing one's own starter.

Well, Dusty, it is a bit like growing weeds, and, case of you, of
inadvertently
sampling your interior atmosphere for whatever residues remain from your
long history of sourdough efforts, conditioned by the usual disregard or
outright contempt for sterile technique.

Case of me, all efforts failed until something came in the mail. After that
a high probability of success, but always, given success, pretty much
the same stuff.

--
Dicky

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...

....]
>
> Mostly what continues to both boggle me and be the source of endless
> mirth, is the easy utility of it all. Yet you can read here about folks
> that measure things to six decimal places, have a range of test and
> analysis gear that would make NASA proud, time events to the
> sub-nanosecond range, pre-heat their ovens with all manner of bricks,
> sticks, rocks, tiles, and stones to fractional degree values for days on
> end in order to get things "just right".

Yes, I admit that I've wondered how I've managed - or if I should be
managing - without them!

> When in reality most anything you throw together, if you obey a few simple
> strictures, will come out pretty well, no matter what you do with it.
> Trust me, it's been (and continues to be) most entertaining! (:-o)!
>
> Consequently, I always counsel SD baking wanna be's to not start out with
> the Albatross already firmly attached... I only wish I'd gotten similar
> advice. It might have saved years of frustration and the herky-jerky fits
> & starts in my quest in this rewarding endeavor.
>
Thanks for a nice, comforting post :-)

Mary

On Wed, 31 Aug 2005 08:46:16 -0700, "Dusty Bleher"
> wrote:

>Then a kind soul reading here took pity on me,

Howdy,

I think that might have been a kind "sole." <g>

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
....
>>Then a kind soul reading here took pity on me,
....
> I think that might have been a kind "sole." <g>
Hey! I wasn't going to mention you, Kenneth...(:-o)!


Dusty

Perhaps I may have to try a fresh starter also. My starter from Brian
Mailman/Dusty has begun to get a funny smell after refridgeration. Sort of
acetoney. I "wash" it after taking it out and the warm bubbling starter has
no trace of the aroma, but a few days after returning to the fridge it
comes back. Doesnt seem to affect my bread at all, but it still concerns
me.

And no I dont keep a bottle of acetone in my fridge.

hutchndi

"hutchndi" > wrote in message
news:c1xRe.21599$hp.12377@lakeread08...
> Perhaps I may have to try a fresh starter also. My starter from Brian
> Mailman/Dusty has begun to get a funny smell after refridgeration. Sort of
> acetoney. I "wash" it after taking it out and the warm bubbling starter
has
> no trace of the aroma, but a few days after returning to the fridge it
> comes back. Doesnt seem to affect my bread at all, but it still concerns
> me.
>
> And no I dont keep a bottle of acetone in my fridge.
>
> hutchndi
>
>

Replying to myself here. Just looked up acetone smells in the archives,
looks like I shouldnt worry about it (at least according to a post by
Samartha, which considerably puts me at ease). Although I also found some
meantion of plastic containers causing acetoney odors, whereas I store my
starter in a white plastic Cool Whip bowl in the fridge. Perhaps a change to
glass....

hutchndi

Hi, Acetone (Propanone, C3H6O) is a natural product of fermentation,
produced from the oxidation of propanol, an alcohol with one more
carbon group than the familiar alcohol ethanol. It is as you know toxic
in large doses, however, "acetone has been shown to have anticonvulsant
effects in animal models of epilepsy, in the absence of toxicity, when
administered in millimolar concentrations (see: Likhodii et al, 2003)."

Don't forget Hutch. People have been eating bread for thousands of
years. Any downsides have been well documented by now.

Take care,

Jim

jimbob wrote:
> Hi, Acetone (Propanone, C3H6O) is a natural product of fermentation,
> produced from the oxidation of propanol, an alcohol with one more
> carbon group than the familiar alcohol ethanol. It is as you know toxic
> in large doses, however, "acetone has been shown to have anticonvulsant
> effects in animal models of epilepsy, in the absence of toxicity, when
> administered in millimolar concentrations (see: Likhodii et al, 2003)."
>

It won't reach your mouth with bread - boiling point is 56.6 C/135 F. My
guess is that if you bake with sourdough below that temperature to keep
the acetone, it won't be bread but some kind of very sour soup.

> Don't forget Hutch. People have been eating bread for thousands of
> years. Any downsides have been well documented by now.

Absolutely - witch hunts and major disease and death in populations with
ergot poisoning.

http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty...135/LECT12.HTM

I find some of those longish dark grains, often broken, pretty regular
in my rye grain. What's weird though is that they are white in the middle.

Samartha

Samartha Deva wrote:

> ...[Acetone] won't reach your mouth with bread - boiling point is
> 56.6 C/135 F. My guess is that if you bake with sourdough below that
> temperature to keep the acetone, it won't be bread but some kind of
> very sour soup.

Ergotism notwithstanding, what about Dick's crockpot rye?

B/

Samartha Deva wrote:

> Absolutely - witch hunts and major disease and death in populations with
> ergot poisoning.
>
> http://www.botany.hawaii.edu/faculty...135/LECT12.HTM
>
> I find some of those longish dark grains, often broken, pretty regular
> in my rye grain. What's weird though is that they are white in the middle.
>
> Samartha

And Claviceps spp. are closely related to another rather tasteless, but
generally regarded as beneficial/medicinal fungus, Cordyceps sinensis.
Only two genera in the family Clavicipitaceae; their physical
similarities are striking. I wonder how much of their molecular biology
is common?

Dave

hutchndi wrote:

>
>>
>>Replying to myself here. Just looked up acetone smells in the archives,
>>looks like I shouldnt worry about it (at least according to a post by
>>Samartha, which considerably puts me at ease). Although I also found some
>>meantion of plastic containers causing acetoney odors, whereas I store my
>>starter in a white plastic Cool Whip bowl in the fridge. Perhaps a change to
>>glass....
>>
>>
The reason I mentioned an acetone smell in starter in a previous post is
because I have found it, when strong, to be a symptom that the culture
has begun to break down the proteins in the flour it is fed, which makes
it hard to make bread. The starter dissolves the protein, and the dough
turns to mush.... and there is no loaf left, just a puddle.

Some acetone odor isn't uncommon.... it's when it gets strong that it is
an indicator of problems with your starter.
Mike


--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvaldis claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
home baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM mavery81230
wordsmith Yahoo mavery81230

Brian Mailman wrote:
> Samartha Deva wrote:
>
>> ...[Acetone] won't reach your mouth with bread - boiling point is
>> 56.6 C/135 F. My guess is that if you bake with sourdough below that
>> temperature to keep the acetone, it won't be bread but some kind of
>> very sour soup.
>
>
> Ergotism notwithstanding, what about Dick's crockpot rye?

What about it? Just ask him how hot it gets, then you know.

s.

> My starter from Brian
>Mailman/Dusty has begun to get a funny smell after refridgeration. Sort of
>acetoney. I "wash" it after taking it out and the warm bubbling starter has
>no trace of the aroma, but a few days after returning to the fridge it
>comes back. Doesnt seem to affect my bread at all, but it still concerns
>me.


No Worries hutch.... ketones are normally formed in bread
>From the bread flavor chemistry literature...i.e Fenaroli's Handbook of
Flavor Ingredients vol 2.
Ketones are formed in the starters and pre-ferments and also during
baking through maillards reaction.
.. It was listed there that more than 20 ketones were identified in
the bread aroma.
2- propanone( acetone)
2- butanone( methylethylketone)
3- hydroxy butanone( acetoin)
2.3 butanedione( diacetyl)
2- pentanone
3- pentene-2-one
4- methylpentene-2-one
2-cylclopentene 1-one
2- hexanone
3-hexanone
2- heptanone
2-octanone
Trimethylpenadecanone
2-heptadecanone
Dihydro2- methylfuranone
Dimethylfuranone
2- acetylfuran
1- furyl- propanone
1-furyl-2-propanedione
3-hydroxy-2-methyl-4-pyrone
2-methyl-3-oxalone
the most abundant ketones formed in sourdough fermentation is the
acetone and the diacetyl
Besides if your dough was okay....and the bread comes out
right.....don't worry.... be happy !<grin>.
Roy

"Roy" > wrote in message =
oups.com...

> more than 20 ketones were identified in the bread aroma.
> 2- propanone( acetone)
> 2- butanone( methylethylketone)
> 3- hydroxy butanone( acetoin)
> 2.3 butanedione( diacetyl)
> 2- pentanone
> 3- pentene-2-one
> 4- methylpentene-2-one
> 2-cylclopentene 1-one
> 2- hexanone
> 3-hexanone
> 2- heptanone
> 2-octanone
> Trimethylpenadecanone
> 2-heptadecanone
> Dihydro2- methylfuranone
> Dimethylfuranone
> 2- acetylfuran
> 1- furyl- propanone
> 1-furyl-2-propanedione
> 3-hydroxy-2-methyl-4-pyrone
> 2-methyl-3-oxalone

To be perfectly honest, Roy, I have never noticed any
dihydro2- methylfuranone nor drimethylpenadecanone.

--
Dicky

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

"Roy" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> more than 20 ketones were identified in the bread aroma.
> 2- propanone( acetone)
> 2- butanone( methylethylketone)
> 3- hydroxy butanone( acetoin)
> 2.3 butanedione( diacetyl)
> 2- pentanone
> 3- pentene-2-one
> 4- methylpentene-2-one
> 2-cylclopentene 1-one
> 2- hexanone
> 3-hexanone
> 2- heptanone
> 2-octanone
> Trimethylpenadecanone
> 2-heptadecanone
> Dihydro2- methylfuranone
> Dimethylfuranone
> 2- acetylfuran
> 1- furyl- propanone
> 1-furyl-2-propanedione
> 3-hydroxy-2-methyl-4-pyrone
> 2-methyl-3-oxalone

To be perfectly honest, Roy, I have never noticed any
dihydro2- methylfuranone nor drimethylpenadecanone.

Did you look underneath?

Mary

--
Dicky

>To be perfectly honest, Roy, I have never noticed any
>dihydro2- methylfuranone nor drimethylpenadecanone.

-- Dick... that was just an 'short' version of
dihydro-2-nmethyl-3(2H) furanone and 6,10,14,-trimethyl-2-pentadecanone

Mary is right....you have too look deeper....or what she call
underneath....<grin>.

"Roy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> >To be perfectly honest, Roy, I have never noticed any
>>dihydro2- methylfuranone nor drimethylpenadecanone.
>
> -- Dick... that was just an 'short' version of
> dihydro-2-nmethyl-3(2H) furanone and 6,10,14,-trimethyl-2-pentadecanone
>
> Mary is right....you have too look deeper....or what she call
> underneath....<grin>.

It's just that in my experience a man often can't find something because he
doesn't think to look under something else.


"Where have you put my socks?"

"They're in your drawer."

"They're not, I've looked in there!"

<sigh>

<opens drawer>

<lifts an item of clothing>

<hands over socks>

"Here they are."

"You've just put them there - you spirited them there - you ALWAYS do that
...."

<sulk, chunter, mutter>

:-)

Mary
>

>It's just that in my experience a man often can't find something because he
>doesn't think to look under something else.

Indeed ...you hit the nail in the head Mary....
My better half 'complained' to me occasionally... when I can't find
things.....which is just nearby...
'Darling, would you please use your eyes instead of your mouth'<grin>?

However...I cannot blame Dick....It is just not his line to comprehend
those things...It was my fault as I also mispelled some words....due to
my hyperactive keyboard fingers.
Roy

"Roy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> >It's just that in my experience a man often can't find something because
> >he
>>doesn't think to look under something else.
>
> Indeed ...you hit the nail in the head Mary....
> My better half 'complained' to me occasionally... when I can't find
> things.....which is just nearby...
> 'Darling, would you please use your eyes instead of your mouth'<grin>?
>
> However...I cannot blame Dick....It is just not his line to comprehend
> those things...It was my fault as I also mispelled some words....due to
> my hyperactive keyboard fingers.

Oh - I thought it was a joke ...

<slopes off on tiptoes>

Mary

> Roy
>