I'm waiting on a loaf of Pain au Levain, that has been about 3 days in
the making, what with all those "stages".... to rise.

It's been about 5 hours since I took it out of the fridge this morning.

Seems with this recipe, a lot could go wrong. If the yeasts are
sluggish, then multiplying out the bread based on the timing of somebody
else's recipe could have them awash in fresh dough before they're well
multiplied, and keep them running "behind schedule".

But as long as I keep it nicely warm (it's at about 80F now), they
should be coming along eventually, right? Unless my starter is crap.
Have I hit a dead end?

You can all have a hearty laugh now.

Mike

"Mike Dilger" > wrote in message =
...
=20
> I'm waiting on a loaf of Pain au Levain, that has been about 3 days in =

> the making, what with all those "stages".... to rise. It's been about =

> 5 hours since I took it out of the fridge this morning.

Why is it in the fridge? What use are stages? Why not just go ahead
and make some bread. Why are you saying "Pain" and "Levain"? --
are you French?

> But as long as I keep it nicely warm (it's at about 80F now), they=20
> should be coming along eventually, right?

Not necessarily. Either it rises right, or it doesn't. You don't have
to wait so long to find out if you can resist the urge to put it into =
the
fridge.

> Have I hit a dead end?

My guess is yes. Either bread at the store, or square one.

> You can all have a hearty laugh now.

Laugh, or cry?

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:

> Why is it in the fridge?

Because by the time it finished the last stage I was ready for bed.

And because I want more flavor than my last batch and took advice from a
website that said: "Let the dough go through its first rise in the
refrigerator overnight in a plastic bag. The next day, remove the
dough, form the loaves, punch down and shape."

> What use are stages?

Not sure... but from my reading, I suppose it is to get the yeast and
bacteria to "line up" and fire off in a proper ratio.

> Why not just go ahead and make some bread. Why are you saying "Pain" and "Levain"? --
> are you French?

I am trying to distinguish the style of bread. I realize Pain means
bread, and Levain means rise... which doesn't literally distinguish
anything... but the style commonly referred to does... only I'm not
entirely sure I have the right name...

I want a bread to eat with the following properties:

Sour tasting - even if that is crass. I want it.
Mostly whole grain.
Tasty grains, nutty/earthy quality

I don't care so much about idealized crusts. I don't care so much about
"big holes" or "very chewy" either. Actually, big holes and very chewy
bread is pretty much NOT what I'm looking for. I want a heavy, hearty
bread. But not as heavy as a bread that doesn't rise!

I'd happily just go buy it if I could find it anywhere near Wellington,
New Zealand, but most Kiwi's eat boring flat tasting 'wonder bread' rip
offs, or whole grain that is more or less "fluffy".

I made such a bread before, about a year ago, that was one of the best
tasting breads I've ever put in my mouth, and I'll be damned if I can't
figure out how I did it, and make it again. The recipe was off this
newsgroup, and titled Pain au Levain, but I have since lost it, so I'm
trying recipes of the same name that I find in my google searches. I
do remember keeping it in the refrigerator overnight, and I also
remember it having some spelt in it.

>>Have I hit a dead end?
>
> My guess is yes. Either bread at the store, or square one.

I would if I could find it... damn Kiwi's.

I do know a friend who runs a bakery... maybe I'll ask them.

Mike

Never mind. It rose more than I realized. I guess I'm not such a good
judge of volume after all. Even has some approx 1cm sized holes here
and there.

The hardest part about baking is waiting for it to cool, while bombarded
with those wonderful smells!

And it's too sour. That's okay. It'll go well with a tangy goat kefir
- ha ha. I have made both extremes, and I'm slowly learning what the
causes are.

Mike

"Mike Dilger" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... I want more flavor than my last batch and took advice from a=20
> website that said: "Let the dough go through its first rise in the=20
> refrigerator overnight in a plastic bag. The next day, remove the=20
> dough, form the loaves, punch down and shape." ...

There is no reason to believe that fridge incubation builds flavor
any better than incubation at warmer temperatures.

> ... I suppose (multi-stage dough making) is to get the yeast and=20
> bacteria to "line up" and fire off in a proper ratio ...

Possibly, for some kinds of rye bread. Rules for rye are inappropriate
for non-rye loaves.

The Big Ugly for other sourdoughs is overdevelopment of preferments.
Then stuff comes up which rots dough, and, among other things,
severely compromises rising.

> I am trying to distinguish the style of bread. I realize Pain means=20
> bread, and Levain means rise ...

Try Pain in the Derriere.

> Sour tasting - even if that is crass. I want it. Mostly whole grain.
> Tasty grains, nutty/earthy quality.

Yes, you are on the track for Pain in the Derriere. Anything in bread
more than flour, water, salt, and leavening makes a good rise less
likely (except for certain chemicals known as dough enhancers).

> I don't care so much about idealized crusts. I don't care so much =
about=20
> "big holes" or "very chewy" either. Actually, big holes and very =
chewy=20
> bread is pretty much NOT what I'm looking for. I want a heavy, hearty =

> bread. But not as heavy as a bread that doesn't rise!

Well, maybe you want rye bread. You can bust your buns for a 2-fold
rise, but Samartha says it is worth it. Rye bread has trouble to keep =
from
being sour.

> I'd happily just go buy it if I could find it anywhere near =
Wellington,=20
> New Zealand ...

Maybe you need to find a boulangerie. You got any of those? If
you go the rye route, you may need to move to northern Europe for
flour and/or appropriate bakeries.
=20
> I made such a bread before, about a year ago, that was one of the best =

> tasting breads I've ever put in my mouth, and I'll be damned if I =
can't=20
> figure out how I did it, and make it again.

Maybe it was Kenneth's simple Pain Poil=E2ne. Here is the instruction =
he gave:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...vqckbh5geab0l=
@4ax.com
Well, if you do that, you might to better if you start with a commercial =

bread oven, like he apparently has.

--
Dicky again

Dicky, does it give you some kind perverse thrill to be so rude. I
can't believe Mike gave you the time it took for a reply. If you aren't
going to help. Keep it shut. We're not all as perfect as you. But my
guess is if your this nasty with others you're going to be this nasty
to yourself so you have my pity.

Jim

"jimbob" > wrote=20

> ... If you aren't going to help. Keep it shut ...

That's a terrible way to talk. I am really very helpful.

In what way have you not been helped?

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:

> The Big Ugly for other sourdoughs is overdevelopment of preferments.
> Then stuff comes up which rots dough, and, among other things,
> severely compromises rising.

This piqued my interest. What kind of timeframe are you talking about
before a preferment is overdeveloped?

I've been experimenting with the billowy loaves recipe using Carl's
starter. Just lately, I've been leaving the final stage for 24 hours
before mixing the dough. Once I've done this, I find that I can leave
the dough to rise for about 9.5 hours before it starts to show signs of
degradation - the surface is begins to tear a bit and after baking the
crust isn't quite as brown, but the loaf tastes very nice and has a good
bit of sourness. So I wonder if I leave the previous stage for less than
24 hours then will I be able to leave the final dough rise even longer
for more flavour? I also like these long final rises as they lend
themselves well to baking a loaf first thing in the morning.

james

"James" > wrote in message =
...

> I've been experimenting with the billowy loaves recipe using Carl's=20
> starter. Just lately, I've been leaving the final stage for 24 hours=20
> before mixing the dough.

I don't know what you mean by the final stage. "Billowy" discribes
using a sponge. But straight dough works well, maybe better. In any
case, no stage comes anywhere near 24 hours.=20

> Once I've done this, I find that I can leave the dough to rise for =
about=20
> 9.5 hours before it starts to show signs of degradation - the surface =
is=20
> begins to tear a bit and after baking the crust isn't quite as brown, =
but=20
> the loaf tastes very nice and has a good bit of sourness.

You are not doing what I do. But lots of people do it your way. Your
loaves are more sour than billowy. My way, done right, the loaves rise
fast and do not tear. But they do brown nicely and do not get deadly =
sour.

> So I wonder if I leave the previous stage for less than 24 hours then=20
> will I be able to leave the final dough rise even longer for more =
flavour?=20
> I also like these long final rises as they lend themselves well to =
baking=20
> a loaf first thing in the morning.

It seems to me that when a preferment, or sponge, goes past its activity
peak, the resultant loaves do not rise well and their surfaces may not =
hold
together well. Well-managed preferments develop rapidly, as do their
progeny.

In the wintertime, I dare leave a formed loaf to rise overnight, but our =
setback
temperature is 52 degr. F. Summertime rises may take 4 or 5 hours, =
since we=20
do not use air conditioning in that part of the house.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname> at bigfoot dot com

Dick Adams wrote:

> There is no reason to believe that fridge incubation builds flavor
> any better than incubation at warmer temperatures.

Maybe not "better", but surely different. One reason is that the
dependence of process rate on temperature is not likely to be the same
for all processes: in particular, saccharification and fermentation.

For empirical evidence, try making Reinhart's (yeasted) pain à
l'ancienne with and without the initial stage cold.

Now sourdough fermentation MAY be a more natural biological partner with
saccharification in flour than yeast fermentation is. Nevertheless, I
see no particular reason to expect the temperature-dependence of
sourdough fermentation and saccharification to be identical.

See also the thread about gluten degradation etc.

Greg

--
To get my e-mail address, remove a dot and replace a dot with a dash.

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:15:23 -0400, Greg
> wrote:

>For empirical evidence, try making Reinhart's (yeasted) pain à
>l'ancienne with and without the initial stage cold.
>
>Now sourdough fermentation MAY be a more natural biological partner with
>saccharification in flour than yeast fermentation is. Nevertheless, I
>see no particular reason to expect the temperature-dependence of
>sourdough fermentation and saccharification to be identical.
>
>See also the thread about gluten degradation etc.
>
>Greg
>
>--
>To get my e-mail address, remove a dot and replace a dot with a dash.

Hi Greg,

I have experimented with that pain a l'ancienne (which BTW
probably should be called pain moderne <g>) as sourdough. It
is wonderful.

When I do it, I put flour in the freezer before mixing!

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."