In topics that I have read relating to creating your own starter, there
is always a mention of tossing the starter if the color is pink or
smells bad. I have not had this happen (pink color), but was
questioning this since I use hard red wheat red flour it is a bit pink
in color. If the starter was pink, would it bubble and smell like
yeast/alcohol also? Or would it just sit and not do anything?

When I use AP flour, my starter smells so much better and more 'yeasty'
but the whole wheat almost smells bad to me. The wheat makes good
bread and rises well. I have Carls' starter and mine own starter in
the red wheat and it smells the same. But Carls' starter using the AP
flour smells much more 'attractive'. It may just be my red wheat that
causes this particular smell.

My biggest concern is that I am not consuming something that is
dangerous or contains something other than the correct bacteria and
yeast.

Growing up, I raised aquarium fish and used microworms to feed the
fish. They grew in cornmeal and yeast and the smell is similar to the
whole wheat starter. Anyway, not very pleasant to me and I don't want
to be cooking with worms! I know. Extra protein .....

John

On 7 Dec 2005 04:22:49 -0800, "BigJohn"
> wrote:

>It may just be my red wheat that
>causes this particular smell.

Hi John,

The first stage of my version of the Poilne loaf is done
with some starter, some water, and a load of coarse red
wheat. That ferments overnight.

The smell is terrible (to me)... Though it is not pink. It
is a dull tan color.

I suspect that you are fine.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

I've had a pink layer of some kind o mold either swimming on the hooch
or growing on a starter after months of neglect. That was a tosser.

Same with dark mold.

There can be pinkish color in full grain starters inside, like when you
take a scoop out of it or stir it up. That's when they ferment a long
time and get really sour. I think that's normal.

With a good sour starter, you don't get bad stuff. The acidity protects
from that.

Samartha



BigJohn wrote:
> In topics that I have read relating to creating your own starter, there
> is always a mention of tossing the starter if the color is pink or
> smells bad. I have not had this happen (pink color), but was
> questioning this since I use hard red wheat red flour it is a bit pink
> in color. If the starter was pink, would it bubble and smell like
> yeast/alcohol also? Or would it just sit and not do anything?
>
> When I use AP flour, my starter smells so much better and more 'yeasty'
> but the whole wheat almost smells bad to me. The wheat makes good
> bread and rises well. I have Carls' starter and mine own starter in
> the red wheat and it smells the same. But Carls' starter using the AP
> flour smells much more 'attractive'. It may just be my red wheat that
> causes this particular smell.
>
> My biggest concern is that I am not consuming something that is
> dangerous or contains something other than the correct bacteria and
> yeast.
>
> Growing up, I raised aquarium fish and used microworms to feed the
> fish. They grew in cornmeal and yeast and the smell is similar to the
> whole wheat starter. Anyway, not very pleasant to me and I don't want
> to be cooking with worms! I know. Extra protein .....
>
> John
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>
>

I wish I took pictures of my old starter before I tossed it, it was
quite a sight. Pink blue and black, smelling like a rotton pumpkin and
all hairy. Quite scary (and sad). I promised my new starter (thanks)
that I would never let this happen to it.

Samartha wrote: "I've had a pink layer of some kind o mold either
swimming on the hooch
or growing on a starter after months of neglect. That was a tosser. "

Months of neglect. Thats what I did, basically forgotten in my fridge
for a few months.

Samartha also wrote: "With a good sour starter, you don't get bad
stuff. The acidity protects from that."

Do you mean a particular starter that makes a sour bread, or a starter
that you maintain in a way that it stays in a sour state?

hutchndi

hutchndi wrote:
[...]
> Samartha also wrote: "With a good sour starter, you don't get bad
> stuff. The acidity protects from that."
>
> Do you mean a particular starter that makes a sour bread, or a starter
> that you maintain in a way that it stays in a sour state?

I think we are mainly talking here about the symbiotic conspiration of
LB's and yeasts called sourdough or starter. Don't know what pushups
would be necessary to avoid getting it sour.

Really, that's always sour, more or less.

I once had one container which had some kind of mold going on (my
neglect series). I refreshed it and after 2 month, it was again off.

All the other one's were below pH 4.0 - 3.74, 3.97, 3.81, 3.90, 3.60,
3.83, 3.58, 3.79, 3.81, 3.82 and the one with the mold had 4.90 - that
was on 2/10/04.

The one with the mold was still working when I refreshed it on 2/10 and
02/11 - it was doing similar as all the other one's.

On 3/19/03, they were all about the same, nothing stood out.

On 4/26/04, it stood out again - pH 5.27, all the other's except one
more were below pH 4.0. They still performed ok and got sour after two
or three refreshments.

So, I figured that something has gotten into the culture which was able
to be there and prevent the LB's from working properly. I continued to
neglect them because I did not have the time to keep up the maintenance.

Somewhere I read about food safety and that foods with a pH lower than
4.6 are generally safer, the

DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC HEALTH AND ENVIRONMENT
Consumer Protection Division
6 CCR 1010-2
STATE BOARD OF HEALTH
COLORADO RETAIL FOOD ESTABLISHMENT RULES AND REGULATIONS

1-202 Definitions
...
(ii). “Nonpotentially Hazardous Food” includes:
...
c. Foods with a measurement of acidity (pH) of 4.6 or below;


So - maybe that gives you some more info.

Samartha

"The one with the mold was still working when I refreshed it on 2/10
and
02/11 - it was doing similar as all the other one's.

On 3/19/03, they were all about the same, nothing stood out.

On 4/26/04, it stood out again - pH 5.27, all the other's except one
more were below pH 4.0. They still performed ok and got sour after two
or three refreshments.

So, I figured that something has gotten into the culture which was able

to be there and prevent the LB's from working properly"



So this contaminated starter never really completely recovered, even
though it got sour again and the PH got back to normal, it still
couldnt protect itself from the nasty? A damaged immune system? This
would explain your quick recomendations to "toss" funky starters, when
so many say just scrape of the scary stuff and "wash" it and it should
be fine. I dont live in Siberia (is that still remote?) and would much
rather throw vile stuff in the garbage then try to make it safe for
consumption again. My wife steadfastly agrees, and all she knows about
sourdough is that it makes yummy bread.

So this makes it all the more important to keep a starter I like well
maintained. From corresponding with various other sourdough bakers, it
seems more likely that starters keep their individual characters in
room temp propigations. My own starters, even when I felt I was feeding
them well and kept them in the fridge, eventually started changing,
getting an acetone smell, while continuing to make good bread (until my
neglect killed them off). So I am tempted to keep my starter on the
kitchen counter, with daily feedings, though a cup of flour a day down
the drain seems wasteful to me and even though they are good, I dont
eat alot of pancakes.

So what else has been tryed? Freezing globs? Everyone says freezing is
a good way to make a backup, would it work as a way to regularly make
your bread? Take out a frozen golf ball of starter as needed? How
about (scary) salt? Slows down yeast activity, but proper proportions
dont kill it off right (though I imagine it wouldnt keep it at its
healthiest)?

hutchndi

On 8 Dec 2005 06:04:22 -0800, "hutchndi" >
wrote:

>though a cup of flour a day down
>the drain seems wasteful

Howdy,

Why not use a half teaspoon per day...

The results will be the same, and you are not likely to be
concerned about the waste.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth, could you explain that? That would be great, I totally dont
see how to work that out, are you keeping a tiny starter at room temp?
It wont use it all up in a few hours?

hutchndi

I've been reading through the different threads about starters and
there seems to be some contradiction regarding worrying about stuff and
not worrying about it. I've been keeping my various starters in small
spoon size jam pots for a while. As long as you fill them as full as
you dare without them braking for the border they're fine. It's where
they come into contact with the air that they get weird color going on,
and quarter of an inch below that they're fine. If you're going to be
around to continuously feed your starter every day then you can feed it
every few days in fridge without it getting even remotely off color. It
takes weeks for mine to look in need of attention and then after
scraping of the odd colored bit and diluting a little they're fine
ready for baking with in no time, even more so if you give them the
temp they like. And they do prefer a temp., regardless of what someone
said about that.

One guy mentions a few measurements and gets his head bitten off,
another gets out a pH metre and suddenly that's normal and not at all
taking things too far. Unless you're entering some kind of competition
with your bread, chill out. It's really no big deal if you get a
hiccup. I think going from leaving your culture so long that it gets
mold on top and feeding out on the counter every day is going from one
extreme to another. Keep it on the dry side when it's in the fridge,
just moist enough to be able to move and you'll be fine for weeks. If
you're going to bake three times a week then you can keep your starter
peeked and ready to go. Relax. These guys will look after themselves if
you let them. Oh, Hutch, I don't want to repeat what Kenneth's already
said but try not to obsess about cups, a measure is a measure, if it be
a spoon or a cup, it's just a measure, there's nothing special bout the
size of the measure. I think that's what Kenneth is getting at in a
more skilful way than me :-) If you want to feed your culture every
day, cool, do it on a less industrial scale :-)

tg

On 8 Dec 2005 08:33:31 -0800, "hutchndi" >
wrote:

> Kenneth, could you explain that? That would be great, I totally dont
>see how to work that out, are you keeping a tiny starter at room temp?
>It wont use it all up in a few hours?
>
>hutchndi

Hi,

I'm not sure just what information you need but this may
help...

There is less food in the smaller amount I suggest, but
there are fewer critters. They will eat the food in the same
period of time. If it takes 12 hours for the food to be
depleted when you have a cup of starter, it will take 12
hours for a teaspoon of starter to become depleted (or for a
tanker truck's worth for that matter).

I hope that this gives you the information that you need.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Samartha Deva wrote:

> Somewhere I read about food safety and that foods with a pH lower than
> 4.6 are generally safer, the

That may have been for botulism prevention and BWB (boiling water bath)
canning. Foods higher than 4.6 need to be pressure-canned.

B/

TG wrote:

> I've been reading through the different threads about starters and
> there seems to be some contradiction regarding worrying about stuff and
> not worrying about it.

It does seem to be binary, doesn't it? Rather difficult to "kinda
sorta" worry/not worry.

B/

Kenneth wrote:


"There is less food in the smaller amount I suggest, but
there are fewer critters. They will eat the food in the same
period of time. If it takes 12 hours for the food to be
depleted when you have a cup of starter, it will take 12
hours for a teaspoon of starter to become depleted (or for a
tanker truck's worth for that matter). "


So I have read here that some people like to keep small marble sized
amounts of starter in plastic spice jars in the fridge, I assumed this
was possible because of the cold. I can keep such a small amount going
at room temp also? I guess also that you have to keep a very minute
portion of yesterdays batch for daily refreshments.This I will have to
experiment with...

Hutchndi

On 8 Dec 2005 11:11:37 -0800, "hutchndi" >
wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>
>
>"There is less food in the smaller amount I suggest, but
>there are fewer critters. They will eat the food in the same
>period of time. If it takes 12 hours for the food to be
>depleted when you have a cup of starter, it will take 12
>hours for a teaspoon of starter to become depleted (or for a
>tanker truck's worth for that matter). "
>
>
>So I have read here that some people like to keep small marble sized
>amounts of starter in plastic spice jars in the fridge, I assumed this
>was possible because of the cold. I can keep such a small amount going
>at room temp also? I guess also that you have to keep a very minute
>portion of yesterdays batch for daily refreshments.This I will have to
>experiment with...
>
>Hutchndi

Hi again,

A marble-sized piece of firm starter will keep longer if
refrigerated just as would a hundred pound piece at the same
temperature.

The point is that the amount of starter really doesn't
matter.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."