Well, I've now made 3 different batches of bread using the SDI Bahrain
culture; one with 100% whole Spelt flour and two using about a 50-50
mix of Rodgers Unbleached All-Purpose and the whole Spelt flour.

The first 2 batches were plain and simple sourdough, just flour and
water.

The last one was the SDI recipe for Cinnamon Raisin Nut bread.

The cultures seem to function properly, bubbling and getting frothy.
As I follow the recipe directions, all seems to going well, up until
the dough has been kneaded and placed in the pans to rise for the last
time prior to baking.

The dough will rise to the top or just barely above the tops of the
pans, and the next thing I know, it's fallen to below the tops of the
pan!!

I rise the dough in my oven with the light on; the temperature remains
pretty much in the range of 80 - 90 degrees, altho it may have fallen
to about 70 during the night last night.

I don't expect antone to come up with a solution to my problem, but am
hoping I can get some clue as to what I may be dojng wrong.

Thanks!

Don R.

I need to add that the last 'plain' loaf I made has a rock hard crust
and is really dense. It is difficult to get the bread knife to
penetrate the crust and to cut thru the bread itself.

I tried to make the Cinnamon Raisin Nut bread somewhat lighter with
more moisture.

Thanks.

Don R.

Just a shot in the dark, but I had a real problem with loaf pans a
while back, and after I got all stressed out about it, I found out that
I was using quick bread pans for trying to bake recipes measured for
bread. Quick bread pans (the ones most used for banana bread and such)
seem just a bit bigger but make alot of difference. The bread rises to
the top, you bake it, and it falls or gets a hollow crust. That was my
experience anyways. I like my crust pretty um, crusty, so thats what I
go for, so cant help with that....

hutchndi

On 8 Dec 2005 10:40:44 -0800, "hutchndi" > wrote:

> Just a shot in the dark, but I had a real problem with loaf pans a
>while back, and after I got all stressed out about it, I found out that
>I was using quick bread pans for trying to bake recipes measured for
>bread. Quick bread pans (the ones most used for banana bread and such)
>seem just a bit bigger but make alot of difference. The bread rises to
>the top, you bake it, and it falls or gets a hollow crust. That was my
>experience anyways. I like my crust pretty um, crusty, so thats what I
>go for, so cant help with that....

Bingo!! Well, that seems address some of my problem.

The recipe does call for 8 1/2 x 4 1/2 x 2 1/2 pans. I'm using
9 1/2 x 5 1/2 x 3 pans.

Thanks.

Don R.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Don R. wrote:

> On 8 Dec 2005 10:40:44 -0800, "hutchndi" > wrote:
>
> > Just a shot in the dark, but I had a real problem with loaf pans a
> >while back, and after I got all stressed out about it, I found out that
> >I was using quick bread pans for trying to bake recipes measured for
> >bread. Quick bread pans (the ones most used for banana bread and such)
> >seem just a bit bigger but make alot of difference. The bread rises to
> >the top, you bake it, and it falls or gets a hollow crust. That was my
> >experience anyways. I like my crust pretty um, crusty, so thats what I
> >go for, so cant help with that....
>
> Bingo!! Well, that seems address some of my problem.
>
> The recipe does call for 8 1/2 x 4 1/2 x 2 1/2 pans. I'm using
> 9 1/2 x 5 1/2 x 3 pans.

Yes - your pans have quite a bit more volume than called for.

When you wait until the dough rises to the top of the pans, it's gone past
the optimum point, and is ready to collapse.

Try smaller pans, and bake as soon as it rises to the top. You seem to
have plenty of rising power, so watch that it doesn't spring and overflow
the pan, when it hits the hot oven!

Dave

On Thu, 8 Dec 2005 12:36:38 -0800, Dave Bell
> wrote:

>On Thu, 8 Dec 2005, Don R. wrote:
>
>> On 8 Dec 2005 10:40:44 -0800, "hutchndi" > wrote:
>>
>> > Just a shot in the dark, but I had a real problem with loaf pans a
>> >while back, and after I got all stressed out about it, I found out that
>> >I was using quick bread pans for trying to bake recipes measured for
>> >bread. Quick bread pans (the ones most used for banana bread and such)
>> >seem just a bit bigger but make alot of difference. The bread rises to
>> >the top, you bake it, and it falls or gets a hollow crust. That was my
>> >experience anyways. I like my crust pretty um, crusty, so thats what I
>> >go for, so cant help with that....
>>
>> Bingo!! Well, that seems address some of my problem.
>>
>> The recipe does call for 8 1/2 x 4 1/2 x 2 1/2 pans. I'm using
>> 9 1/2 x 5 1/2 x 3 pans.
>
>Yes - your pans have quite a bit more volume than called for.
>
>When you wait until the dough rises to the top of the pans, it's gone past
>the optimum point, and is ready to collapse.
>
>Try smaller pans, and bake as soon as it rises to the top. You seem to
>have plenty of rising power, so watch that it doesn't spring and overflow
>the pan, when it hits the hot oven!
>
>Dave

Since I first responded to "hutchndi" >, I got to
thinking about pan sizes . . . .

I don't understand why the pan size should have much bearing on the
loaf. If I use a larger than specified pan size and place a larger
piece of dough in the pan, why wouldn't that work just as well as
using a smaller pan and a smaller piece of dough?

Thanks.

Don R.

Don R. wrote:
> On 8 Dec 2005 10:40:44 -0800, "hutchndi" > wrote:
>
> > Just a shot in the dark, but I had a real problem with loaf pans a
> >while back, and after I got all stressed out about it, I found out that
> >I was using quick bread pans for trying to bake recipes measured for
> >bread. Quick bread pans (the ones most used for banana bread and such)
> >seem just a bit bigger but make alot of difference. The bread rises to
> >the top, you bake it, and it falls or gets a hollow crust. That was my
> >experience anyways. I like my crust pretty um, crusty, so thats what I
> >go for, so cant help with that....
>
> Bingo!! Well, that seems address some of my problem.
>
> The recipe does call for 8 1/2 x 4 1/2 x 2 1/2 pans. I'm using
> 9 1/2 x 5 1/2 x 3 pans.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Don R.
>

Don R. wrote:
> On 8 Dec 2005 10:40:44 -0800, "hutchndi" > wrote:
>
> > Just a shot in the dark, but I had a real problem with loaf pans a
> >while back, and after I got all stressed out about it, I found out that
> >I was using quick bread pans for trying to bake recipes measured for
> >bread. Quick bread pans (the ones most used for banana bread and such)
> >seem just a bit bigger but make alot of difference. The bread rises to
> >the top, you bake it, and it falls or gets a hollow crust. That was my
> >experience anyways. I like my crust pretty um, crusty, so thats what I
> >go for, so cant help with that....
>
> Bingo!! Well, that seems address some of my problem.
>
> The recipe does call for 8 1/2 x 4 1/2 x 2 1/2 pans. I'm using
> 9 1/2 x 5 1/2 x 3 pans.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Don R.
>

Using those dimensions, that is 64% more pan volume than what was
called for. Hard to believe that would produce so much more volume.

Don R. wrote:
> I need to add that the last 'plain' loaf I made has a rock hard crust
> and is really dense. It is difficult to get the bread knife to
> penetrate the crust and to cut thru the bread itself.

That sounds more like a not-enough-oil problem than a not-risen-enough
problem.

On Fri, 09 Dec 2005 23:09:22 -0800, Melinda Meahan - take out TRASH to
send > wrote:

>Don R. wrote:
>> I need to add that the last 'plain' loaf I made has a rock hard crust
>> and is really dense. It is difficult to get the bread knife to
>> penetrate the crust and to cut thru the bread itself.
>
>That sounds more like a not-enough-oil problem than a not-risen-enough
>problem.

OIL!!! Who uses oil???? ;-)



Don R.

Don R. wrote:
>>
>>That sounds more like a not-enough-oil problem than a not-risen-enough
>>problem.
>
> OIL!!! Who uses oil???? ;-)

I rest my case.

e:
> > OIL!!! Who uses oil???? ;-)


Apparently quite a few, though they are not the busiest posters here. This
group is about sourdough right? Its not about exclusivly making artisan
bread or french bread or any kind of bread other than bread (or whatever)
being made with sourdough, so if anybody wants to use oil, or sugar, or
chocolate etc, hey whatever floats your boat. Same should go for how long
one should proof before making bread, its personal preference, other than
suggestions to get a certain result. While I (so far) dislike cold start
bakes, plenty swear by them. I just revisited Joans Banneton Loaf which is
one of the original webpages that got me interested in sourdough, straight
dough approach, she let the dough rise only once, and look at all the stuff
she puts in there. The bread still looks pretty darn good. Might even try
it.

hutchndi

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:04:04 GMT, Don R.
> wrote:

>The dough will rise to the top or just barely above the tops of the
>pans, and the next thing I know, it's fallen to below the tops of the
>pan!!

Howdy,

Try it again, and time it.

Then, try to bake it about ten minutes before the point at
which it fell.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Don R. wrote:
>
>
> The dough will rise to the top or just barely above the tops of the
> pans, and the next thing I know, it's fallen to below the tops of the
> pan!!
>
If you assume a good SD culture, you are "over-proofing" or fermenting
past the optimim point. You need to scale and form your loaves earlier
in the process. I have found that some spelt, Durum, and rye mixtures
with regular wheat can be very tricky with a short window time between a
good rise and collapse.

Further, 90F is too warm and cinnimon can interfere with the
fermentation. I don/t know the recipe you are using, but cinnimon is
better used as a layer rather than incorporated into the dough.


Regards,

Charles

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:20:07 GMT, Charles Perry >
wrote:

>Don R. wrote:
>>
>>
>> The dough will rise to the top or just barely above the tops of the
>> pans, and the next thing I know, it's fallen to below the tops of the
>> pan!!
>>
>If you assume a good SD culture, you are "over-proofing" or fermenting
>past the optimim point. You need to scale and form your loaves earlier
>in the process. I have found that some spelt, Durum, and rye mixtures
>with regular wheat can be very tricky with a short window time between a
>good rise and collapse.

I'm noticing the culture doesn't have quite what I would call
"bubbles" in it when it's working. It appears to have more what I'd
call "spaces" in it; irregular shaped, rather than the spherical shape
of bubbles. Don't know if that makes any sense to you, but that's the
best I can describe it.

>Further, 90F is too warm and cinnimon can interfere with the
>fermentation. I don/t know the recipe you are using, but cinnimon is
>better used as a layer rather than incorporated into the dough.

Yes, that's also the way I'm used to seeing it used, as a layer.
However, this recipe not only calls for 1/4 c. ground cinnamon mixed
into the dough, with the nuts and raisins, but also 2 tbs. mixed with
sugar to be used as a layer on the rolled out dough which is then
rolled up and placed in the pan.

Thanks.


>
>
>Regards,
>
>Charles
Don R.

Don R. wrote:

>
> ...I'm noticing the culture doesn't have quite what I would call
> "bubbles" in it when it's working....

Make sure your starter is good. If your starter won't rise -your bread
won't. If you mix some starter thicker than batter, but thinner than
dough and place it in a straight walled container such as a small spice
container, it should more than double in height.
>
>
> ...his recipe not only calls for 1/4 c. ground cinnamon mixed
> into the dough,...
>
Sounds like a lot of cinnamon in the dough to me. I would check that
against similar recipes elsewhere.

Regards,

Charles

On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 23:15:59 GMT, Charles Perry >
wrote:

>Don R. wrote:
>
>>
>> ...I'm noticing the culture doesn't have quite what I would call
>> "bubbles" in it when it's working....
>
>Make sure your starter is good. If your starter won't rise -your bread
>won't. If you mix some starter thicker than batter, but thinner than
>dough and place it in a straight walled container such as a small spice
>container, it should more than double in height.

I haven't gotten to where I only use small portions of starter.
However, in using a 2-litre container, and feeding with 3/4 c. flour
to 1 c. water (or vice versa, depending on the consistency), the
starter is now doubling in about 3 hours. So, THAT part of the problem
seems to have been resolved.

Thanks!

Don R.