howdy all,

in reading about sf starter he
http://www.sourdo.com/original_san_fran.htm, the question came to me- in
maintaining a starter, is it possible to change the characteristics of that
starter by the amount of flour used each time to feed that starter?

i ask because, if i were to purchase a sf starter, would the process of
feeding, thus introducing new organisms (from the flour feeding itself)
change the starter to something else over time?

if so, is there a way to feed a starter smaller amounts of flour to prevent
new yeasts or other "beasties" from taking over the original starter?

dan w

On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:38:25 -0800, "dan w"
> wrote:

>howdy all,
>
>in reading about sf starter he
>http://www.sourdo.com/original_san_fran.htm, the question came to me- in
>maintaining a starter, is it possible to change the characteristics of that
>starter by the amount of flour used each time to feed that starter?
>
>i ask because, if i were to purchase a sf starter, would the process of
>feeding, thus introducing new organisms (from the flour feeding itself)
>change the starter to something else over time?
>
>if so, is there a way to feed a starter smaller amounts of flour to prevent
>new yeasts or other "beasties" from taking over the original starter?
>
>dan w
>

Hi Dan,

When you add flour you are introducing a vanishingly small
number of critters as compared with the population in the
starter itself.

If the starter is healthy, there is no concern...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:38:25 -0800, "dan w"
> > wrote:
>
> >howdy all,
> >
> >in reading about sf starter he
> >http://www.sourdo.com/original_san_fran.htm, the question came to me- in
> >maintaining a starter, is it possible to change the characteristics of
that
> >starter by the amount of flour used each time to feed that starter?
> >
> >i ask because, if i were to purchase a sf starter, would the process of
> >feeding, thus introducing new organisms (from the flour feeding itself)
> >change the starter to something else over time?
> >
> >if so, is there a way to feed a starter smaller amounts of flour to
prevent
> >new yeasts or other "beasties" from taking over the original starter?
> >
> >dan w
> >
>
> Hi Dan,
>
> When you add flour you are introducing a vanishingly small
> number of critters as compared with the population in the
> starter itself.
>
> If the starter is healthy, there is no concern...
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

what you say makes sense, yet i still wonder when i hear some say that their
starter changes over time to something different than what it tasted like
when they first used it. what accounts for this change?

dan w

dan w wrote:
> "
> > Kenneth
> >
> > If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>
> what you say makes sense, yet i still wonder when i hear some say that their
> starter changes over time to something different than what it tasted like
> when they first used it. what accounts for this change?
>
> dan w

Are you talking about the baker's methods / techniques changing over
time? I would think this would account for the biggest apparent
'changes'. I think it's also worth noting here if you live in San
Francisco and you think you have a prized San Franciscan starter; if
your flour comes the East coast or somewhere equally removed. What's
the difference between you and the guy in Manhattan worrying about his
prized San Franciscan starter being over taken by 'foreign'
organisms?

I'm more than happy that my starters are holding true, if they
don't, they don't, as Doris used to say che sera. So be it. I just
made another starter to test out Will's method from rye and wheat
berries. It worked wonderfully. I added a touch of Vodka to the mix
just to stop that bloody awful pong you get from the whole wheat. It
knocked that out straight away. I did add a touch too much though as it
meant that the starter took a little longer than I would have expected.
But if that meant no pong, Great! Well, to get to the point. It's a
great starter and more sour than the Bahrain, though not so
distinctive. If I can make a good starter in a few days from some wheat
and rye berries I got in a supermarket in Soho then anyone can.

If you've bought your starter from SDI, what have you wasted, a few
bucks? Nothing compared to what you'll save baking for your self. If
it holds true to boot, Fantastic!

I suspect the biggest problem with starter drift, is more to do with
cross contamination. It is so easy to do especially if you're one of
those people who dips your doughy hands into the bag of flour.

Well as so many have said here, the big differences are to do with your
technique. I might be wrong in pointing out that one or two of the
people suggesting that you should get a tried and tested starter are
also saying that they 'drift'. The probably lies somewhere in the
middle of the pile.

My conclusion: If you want to try another starter from an on-line
source, go ahead, it's only a few $'s, but if you've got more
than one, don't use them at the same time and wash the shared
utensils well. Keep them healthy. If you can't don't worry.
You're only a few days and / or a quid away from another one.

Have fun it's only bread. : -)

TG

... healthy. If you can't don't worry.
> You're only a few days and / or a quid away from another one.
>
> Have fun it's only bread. : -)
>
> TG

Sorry about the missing words. This PC is really temperamental when it
comes to editing. I'm sure you guess I was trying to say 'the truth
probably lies somewhere in the middle of the pile.' No double
entendre intended.

TG

> wrote in message oups.com...

> Sorry about the missing words.

Which ones were those?

You are really pumping this thread up,
Mr. Sourdough!


"Capomaestro" > wrote in message ...

> The experience here in Ireland is with a SF culture taken from a
> baking class 2 years prior. It is anyone's guess how many
> 'doughy hands' could have cross-contaminated it in the 5 years it
> has been in the school. And after laying neglected in the bowels
> of the refrigerator for 10 weeks and double refresh, viola!
> Lovely sour SF boules with perfect crusts, medium-large holes and
> flavour 'direct from the wharf'. All that was done was to follow
> the meagre instructions for the proper biological processes to
> occur (i.e.. intermediate fermentation time of greater than 4
> hours). And with plain, not strong, flour (10.5% protein).
> Samartha's SD calculator was used to provide the correct
> measurements (hydration @ 60%). A repeat performance occurred in
> two days owing that the product was a sell-out. The Irish
> understudy was tapped for the lead (cultured in the 'Dirty old
> town' three years ago). But for a twist the flours were changed
> to protect the innocent and some Croatian rye (low ash, type 950)
> played a supporting (405) role. Ohh! The audience swooned over
> the vastly different yet suitably tangy flavour. Soon a dark
> German rye (Dunkel Roggen) will make an appearance. Samartha's
> calculator was again tapped to provided correct numbers (68%
> hydration).

Blarney?
Ergot?
Distillate of grain/potato mash?
Hemp varieties?

Anyway, a very happy post!

What a thread!!

--
Dicky

The experience here in Ireland is with a SF culture taken from a baking class 2 years prior. It is anyone's guess how many 'doughy
hands' could have cross-contaminated it in the 5 years it has been in the school. And after laying neglected in the bowels of the
refrigerator for 10 weeks and double refresh, viola! Lovely sour SF boules with perfect crusts, medium-large holes and flavour
'direct from the wharf'. All that was done was to follow the meagre instructions for the proper biological processes to occur
(i.e.. intermediate fermentation time of greater than 4 hours). And with plain, not strong, flour (10.5% protein). Samartha's SD
calculator was used to provide the correct measurements (hydration @ 60%). A repeat performance occurred in two days owing that the
product was a sell-out. The Irish understudy was tapped for the lead (cultured in the 'Dirty old town' three years ago). But for a
twist the flours were changed to protect the innocent and some Croatian rye (low ash, type 950) played a supporting (405) role.
Ohh! The audience swooned over the vastly different yet suitably tangy flavour. Soon a dark German rye (Dunkel Roggen) will make
an appearance. Samartha's calculator was again tapped to provided correct numbers (68% hydration).

YMMV

> wrote in message ups.com...
>
> dan w wrote:
> > "
> > > Kenneth
> > >
> > > If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
> >
> > what you say makes sense, yet i still wonder when i hear some say that their
> > starter changes over time to something different than what it tasted like
> > when they first used it. what accounts for this change?
> >
> > dan w
>
> Are you talking about the baker's methods / techniques changing over
> time? I would think this would account for the biggest apparent
> 'changes'. I think it's also worth noting here if you live in San
> Francisco and you think you have a prized San Franciscan starter; if
> your flour comes the East coast or somewhere equally removed. What's
> the difference between you and the guy in Manhattan worrying about his
> prized San Franciscan starter being over taken by 'foreign'
> organisms?
>
> I'm more than happy that my starters are holding true, if they
> don't, they don't, as Doris used to say che sera. So be it. I just
> made another starter to test out Will's method from rye and wheat
> berries. It worked wonderfully. I added a touch of Vodka to the mix
> just to stop that bloody awful pong you get from the whole wheat. It
> knocked that out straight away. I did add a touch too much though as it
> meant that the starter took a little longer than I would have expected.
> But if that meant no pong, Great! Well, to get to the point. It's a
> great starter and more sour than the Bahrain, though not so
> distinctive. If I can make a good starter in a few days from some wheat
> and rye berries I got in a supermarket in Soho then anyone can.
>
> If you've bought your starter from SDI, what have you wasted, a few
> bucks? Nothing compared to what you'll save baking for your self. If
> it holds true to boot, Fantastic!
>
> I suspect the biggest problem with starter drift, is more to do with
> cross contamination. It is so easy to do especially if you're one of
> those people who dips your doughy hands into the bag of flour.
>
> Well as so many have said here, the big differences are to do with your
> technique. I might be wrong in pointing out that one or two of the
> people suggesting that you should get a tried and tested starter are
> also saying that they 'drift'. The probably lies somewhere in the
> middle of the pile.
>
> My conclusion: If you want to try another starter from an on-line
> source, go ahead, it's only a few $'s, but if you've got more
> than one, don't use them at the same time and wash the shared
> utensils well. Keep them healthy. If you can't don't worry.
> You're only a few days and / or a quid away from another one.
>
> Have fun it's only bread. : -)
>
> TG
>

Capomaestro wrote:

> The experience here in Ireland is with a SF culture taken from a
> baking class 2 years prior. It is anyone's guess how many 'doughy
> hands' could have cross-contaminated it in the 5 years it has been in
> the school. And after laying neglected in the bowels of the
> refrigerator for 10 weeks and double refresh, viola! Lovely sour SF
> boules with perfect crusts, medium-large holes and flavour 'direct
> from the wharf'.

I'm not so sure I'd want my bread to taste like Dungeness crabs, or
worse--I've seen what those guys walk around on after they've cleaned
'em and the rest of the fish, too.

B/

dan w wrote:
> howdy all,
>
> in reading about sf starter he
> http://www.sourdo.com/original_san_fran.htm, the question came to me- in
> maintaining a starter, is it possible to change the characteristics of that
> starter by the amount of flour used each time to feed that starter?

Dan,

I think the answer to your question is yes. There seems to be a
continuum in starter results from cool, high hydration, mixtures... to
warm, low hydration, ones: cool and thin, favor yeasts, warm and thick
favor LB's. Of course there are exceptions and variants but I think the
warm/thick, cool/thin paradigm, which is very simplistic, holds.

I think spending time reading the Gaenzle and Wing posts on Samartha's
site is a good idea. It takes a while, and several readings, to absorb
what is presented. It's not exciting reading, but if you really,
seriously, parse what is presented you will learn what you need to
know. There are a lot of variables: size of inoculation, flour ash,
ions, etc... Cereal chemistry is complex and none of us master it. But
a little knowledge generates huge benefits.

I am walking the same road you are. My mileage indicates that fresh,
vigorous starters are essential. That warm starter builds make complex
flavors. That retards are absolutely necessary for gluten build and
crumb structure, and that warm proofs finish what those warm builds
initiate. I like the complexity, frankly, We are following a real
Tradition. There is enough mystery and science for all.

Back to your starter question... I think that the origin of the starter
is orders of magnitude less important than how it is maintained and
amplified for dough. I have a small stable of starters that I have
built or acquired over the years.

Every one of them can present as either sour or mild.

Will

"Will" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> (snip)
> I have a small stable of starters that I have
> built or acquired over the years.
>
> Every one of them can present as either sour or mild.
>
> Will
>
that is the current obsession with my sd now, getting consistent sour when i
want it. what exactly do you do to get real sour from your starters?

dan w

Dan,

I decided that refrigerator storage was making my cultures mild. So
I've moved them to the cellar. If you can find a place that's about 55
degrees F, perhaps a north window, and if you keep the starters firm,
they will begin to correct. Warm refreshment cycles will help.

I cannot do a better job explaining it than Gaenzle does. The
Wing/Gaenzle discussion helps a bit too. Both are found on Samartha's
site. Gaenzle's paper is not complicated but it is dense. Meaning there
are a number of levers to fool with. I urge you to read it. I had make
a graphic step-by-step outline to get it straight. So I am no rocket
scientist with this stuff.

The gist of it is... you have to manipulate both heat and hydration
levels during the refreshments. Pay attention to the business relating
to the effects of acetic and lactic acid. They do different things.

A warm final proof helps too. I saw your pictures. That's a good
direction. The heating pad is radiant. It's better for dough than hot
air.

My equipment is cheap and simple.

A $5 mini crockpot from WalMart with a plastic lid and and "keep warm"
setting.

A thermometer calibrated for low temperatures... 60-120 degrees. ie: a
yogurt thermometer.

A $5 securtiy timer to cycle the crock pot on and off. Otherwise "keep
warm" gets to 120 F.

Samartha uses aquariaum/terrarium heaters, see his site for details.
And while you're there read the Detmold material, look at Samartha's
calculator. It fits with just about everything Gaenzle discusses,
especially the inoculation ratios (which relate to acids which relate
to LB density).

Your hot pad might do the job, meaning you only need a thermometer.

Will

On 25 Jan 2006 17:57:22 -0800, Will > wrote:
>
>
> Back to your starter question... I think that the origin of the starter
> is orders of magnitude less important than how it is maintained and
> amplified for dough. I have a small stable of starters that I have
> built or acquired over the years.



I tend to agree with an earlier poster that the number of critters in the
flour is so small that they won't take over a healthy culture. Of ocurse,
many hobbyists don't have healthy cultures.

Still, the flour IS important. Flour is not a readilly quantifiable
substance. It's made from different wheat strains, grown in different
areas, and it is different. And these differences are important to the
final product. More ash will tend to produce a more sour bread.

What an organism eats can affect its taste. For instance, French farmers
force feed their geese special foods and herbs to make the goose liver taste
better for making pate. American hunters prize boars that have been eating
acorns. Many nursing mothers can attest that their babies can tell when
mom's been eating food that's too spicy.

If a macro-organism can be changed in a short period by what it eats, I have
no trouble believing a micro-organism can also be changed.

If you want to make bread like Jone's bakery, it may be more important to
find out what kind of flour they are using and how they make the bread than
to get some of their starter. If you are trying to makea San Francisco
style bread, you probably want some Giusto's flour. They are on-line and
they do ship. http://www.giustos.com

You might also want to look at Samartha's home page, he has put the formula
and process Dr. Sugihara got from the San Francisco bakeries on-line. It
works very nicely, even without Guisto's flour. (One of these days, I'll do
the same. The formula, and good text, was in the April 1970 Baker's
Digest.) Look at http://www.samartha.net/SD/recipes/SF-01.html

Mike

Mike Avery wrote:

> What an organism eats can affect its taste. For instance, French
> farmers force feed their geese special foods and herbs to make the goose
> liver taste better for making pate. American hunters prize boars that
> have been eating acorns. Many nursing mothers can attest that their
> babies can tell when mom's been eating food that's too spicy.

While I generally agree with your point, the last is a bit inaccurate.
I believe the study that was conducted involved garlic, not "too spicy"
since that measure is subjective. All babies are pretty much alike until
they become enculturated; if "too spicy" was a universal measure nursing
mothers in say, Thailand might have an issue.

B/

Mike Avery wrote:
> On 25 Jan 2006 17:57:22 -0800, Will > wrote:
> >
> >
> > Back to your starter question... I think that the origin of the starter
> > is orders of magnitude less important than how it is maintained and
> > amplified for dough. I have a small stable of starters that I have
> > built or acquired over the years.
>
>
>
> I tend to agree with an earlier poster that the number of critters in the
> flour is so small that they won't take over a healthy culture. Of ocurse,
> many hobbyists don't have healthy cultures.
>
> Still, the flour IS important. Flour is not a readilly quantifiable
> substance. It's made from different wheat strains, grown in different
> areas, and it is different. And these differences are important to the
> final product. More ash will tend to produce a more sour bread.
>
> What an organism eats can affect its taste. For instance, French farmers
> force feed their geese special foods and herbs to make the goose liver taste
> better for making pate. American hunters prize boars that have been eating
> acorns. Many nursing mothers can attest that their babies can tell when
> mom's been eating food that's too spicy.
>
> If a macro-organism can be changed in a short period by what it eats, I have
> no trouble believing a micro-organism can also be changed.
>
> If you want to make bread like Jone's bakery, it may be more important to
> find out what kind of flour they are using and how they make the bread than
> to get some of their starter. If you are trying to makea San Francisco
> style bread, you probably want some Giusto's flour. They are on-line and
> they do ship. http://www.giustos.com
>
> You might also want to look at Samartha's home page, he has put the formula
> and process Dr. Sugihara got from the San Francisco bakeries on-line. It
> works very nicely, even without Guisto's flour. (One of these days, I'll do
> the same. The formula, and good text, was in the April 1970 Baker's
> Digest.) Look at http://www.samartha.net/SD/recipes/SF-01.html
>
> Mike

Am I right in understanding that you're talkinga about changing the
flavour of the bread rather than the flora in the (healthy) culture
here Mike?

TG