I've been reading some of the recent posts with interest, but what's
still not clear to me is how much starter peopler are using in their
dough.

If I have a walnut-size stiff-dough starter that has not been in the
fridge recently (that is, I halve, refresh, and keep on countertop),
should I ramp up the starter quantity to 20% or so of the total dough
before making the dough, or just put in a walnut's worth?

While we're on the topic, just what do you think is a good percentage?

I'm also interested in your views on whether to double, quadruple,
octuple, or what.

My start is working fine, as far as the yeast goes, but it doesn't have
that classic taste anymore. I don't need really sour bread, I like
mild, but that characteristic taste is nice to have. I think I will try
a no-fridge experiment for a couple of weeks and see if that makes a
difference in the health of my starter.

Hello Hans & all;

"Hans Fugal" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I've been reading some of the recent posts with interest, but
> what's
> still not clear to me is how much starter peopler are using in
> their
> dough.
While there's certainly going to be a lot of pontificating by those
posting here, in my experience so far there's little to be gained by
a lot of variation on the amount of starter you use. The culture is
a collection of "fungus & critters" that live and grow in a wet
flour environment. Their job is to convert some of the food value
in the flour to various other forms. They do it to live and
multiply, we let them because it serves our needs.

Look, 2-people can build a house, but it's gonna take some
time--let's say 6-months (call that 360 "people-days"). A hundred
people, can build that same house a lot quicker--perhaps even in 3.6
"people-days" but that would be tough. But a hundred-thousand
people are not going to be able to build that same house in 0.0036
"people-days" (about 0.09 hours). The same is true for your
starter.

You're gonna get all sorts of advice from this group (including me
(:-o)!). Some will insist that you MUST use an amount so small that
only the finest titanium clad, digital scales with a resolution of
at least 6-digits can measure it, to those that will tell you it's
okay just to use all the starter you got and add a little flour to
just thicken it up a bit. So you should probably get your
"high-water" (I wuz tryin' ta be nice here...(:-o)!) boots on and
stand back.

Any recipe will end up being a finite amount of food for the
critters. These critters grow geometrically over time and under the
influence of temperature. If you use less of them, it'll just take
longer. If you keep them warmer, it'll happen faster. Then it
becomes a balancing act of how many, for how long, at how warm, to
what end?

After reading some of the collective wisdom here, I've experimented
with small starts, medium starts, and large starts over the
years--several times, even. I wasn't able to discern any
difference, except in the time it took to pre-ferment the dough.
While I did that kind of experiment in an effort to find more "sour"
in my bread, it didn't change anything in that regard either.
Although many posting here will claim so (and it may well be so,
just that in my efforts, that's not been the case).

> If I have a walnut-size stiff-dough starter that has not been in
> the
> fridge recently (that is, I halve, refresh, and keep on
> countertop),
> should I ramp up the starter quantity to 20% or so of the total
> dough
> before making the dough, or just put in a walnut's worth?
See above.

> While we're on the topic, just what do you think is a good
> percentage?
To me at least, that becomes a personal value. Some folks like
less, and swear that it works well for them (and that may well be
the case). Others like more, and also will swear that it works well
for them (and that may well also be the case). There is no, one,
"right" answer. It's what works for you... Cuz that's the culture
you're using, the methods you're using, and the flour and water that
you're using. Start with some amount, and watch what happens. If
it takes too long, warm it a bit. If you've warmed it all you can
without hurting it, add more starter the next time. And so on...

> I'm also interested in your views on whether to double, quadruple,
> octuple, or what.
You really, Really, REALLY don't wanna throw out a loaded firebrand
like that...(:-o)! Most everybody here runs on their opinions;
facts matter little. Only their view is important--and being able
to get someone else to do what they do, and then being able to sit
back and bray loudly, that "Everybody does it that way!" (:-{})!

> My start is working fine, as far as the yeast goes, but it doesn't
> have
> that classic taste anymore. I don't need really sour bread, I like
BTDT! In fact, that's what I'm chasing at the moment. The only
good traces of sour I get are in my "Jewish Rye" loaf.
(http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...h/RyeBread.htm)

While I'm using a variety of starters sent to me by folks in this
group and others, and one purchased from SDI, none have given me
what I seek. I've even built starters from rye flour as Samartha
suggests. That didn't work either. So, it's either a method of how
I'm using the starter (or not), the starter, my flour, or something
in my building methodology. Keep that firmly in mind before you
fling yourself headlong into using one of my recipes...(:-o)!

I've converted my recipes into a standard "form". I've done that as
I found out that most of what's presented here is opinion supported
with claimed results. It works for them...and I believe 'em. But
that makes the recipes too confusing and differnt to fit into my
time and methology. I've converted all of mine to use common units,
and have things happen at common times. That way every thing I bake
isn't a new adventure into figuring out when and what to do.

If you ask here long enough or often enough, you'll get recipes of
"help" that run the gamut from being very, VERY useful; to
pointless, ritualistic suggestions that have nothing at all to do
with the task at hand (most often the case). For me, at least,
that's part of the fun of reading here. It's kinda like those that
insist that only the finest and most accurate digital scale, or
two-tons of bricks or stones in your oven, or pre-heating things for
upwards of 72-hours to near the melting point of lead is the ONLY
WAY you'll be able to make bread.

It ain't!

There's others!

And most of those are like bread; very simple and easy to do...but
harder to do right...

But that's not to say that their self-defined methods don't also
work. They almost certainly do. So wading through the chaff is
part of the fun of reading here (including mine!).

> mild, but that characteristic taste is nice to have. I think I
> will try
> a no-fridge experiment for a couple of weeks and see if that makes
> a
> difference in the health of my starter.
Been doing that for upwards of a year now. Hasn't changed anything
except for the clutter of the various starter containers on the
counter. At the moment I'm in the process of cultivating "parallel"
versions of starters from some of those I already had, but doing
them with rye. Today will be the third refreshment, so I'm going to
try the rye version of my "Acme" culture tonight. I'll be sure to
keep y'all posted...


Later all,
Dusty
San Jose

Dusty,

How long has your final rise been before putting the loaves in the
oven? Are you using a cold or preheated oven start?

I am also in the process of making a rye starter....in hopes of
producing a more sour flavor.
Tonight will be the third refresh. So far, it sure smells more sour
than my SF (SDI) starter smells.

Hi "Trix" & all;

"Trix" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Dusty,
>
> How long has your final rise been before putting the loaves in the
That seems to vary with the temperature of my kitchen, "Trix". I do
my rises in a cold (room temp) oven. In the summer, they tend to
take 3-4 hours. In the winter, it can run up to a couple of hours
longer than that. I use the "finger poke" test to check for a
finished rise. I don't know how accurate that is...but at least
it's a metric that doesn't require digital scale or tons of oven
tiles...(:-o)!

I've left them longer, in order to test the "give 'em more time to
get sour" theory, but that seems designed only to give my dough an
opportunity to tear apart and spread all over the place
(over-proof). I've tried a warmer final rise, and the same thing
happened, only sooner.

> oven? Are you using a cold or preheated oven start?
Cold! Always and only cold...unless I have multiple loaves. Then
the second guy gets a warm start. And it's interesting to note, the
second loaf is ALWAYS smaller and denser than the first.

The only reason that I've been able to find to substantiate a
hot-start is for somebody that has an oven with puny heating
elements that take forever to get hot, or the _real_ pros. They
need to have a consistent and equal baking time for each batch of
bread. They can't be standing around sippin' wine waitin' for the
color to get right...(:-o)!

About the only thing funnier than the angst bedecked hot-start crowd
are those that need to take digital temperatures to ensure that
their loaf hits some mythical number like 201.3F in order to "know"
that it's done. They seem to think that if left in a few
nano-seconds longer than that, that the bread will jump to 375F
inside and burst into flame...(:-o)! Bread bakes until it's
done...or you take it out of the oven. While easy to under-bake,
it's damned hard to over-bake. The darn thing just gets darker and
darker on the outside, while the inside temperature barely changes
(BTDT!).

I've heard mentioned, and in my admittedly more limited experience
(than the real pros), have found to be true. You really have to go
out of your way to over-bake bread. All you get is thicker, harder,
darker crust...and maybe flames if you're persistent enough...(:-o)!

The wanna-be pro amateurs often posting here think that by doing
that, it makes them more "professional" than those of us that don't.
Hey! That's fine with me. They can have that mantle if that's
important to 'em. Me? I'd rather make good, interesting bread...

> I am also in the process of making a rye starter....in hopes of
> producing a more sour flavor.
> Tonight will be the third refresh. So far, it sure smells more
> sour
> than my SF (SDI) starter smells.
Good for you--that's the SD baking spirit!

I've conjured up a couple of copies from the Acme and Poilne
starters, that I got from a kind reader, and introduced them to rye.
Since I've used both already (with AP), it'll be interesting to see
how these results differ from their stock flavor.

Mostly I'm going the rye flour route because none of the other
changes I've made did any good: lower/higher hydration in the
starter; active, daily, counter-top culturing; every combination of
warmer or cooler, on the preferment, ferment, and final rise;
nothing seems to yield the taste I've been seeking.

I do know that my rye loaf has the most sour. And I do know,
especially from the things I've read here, that most folks agree
that a rye based loaf tends to be more sour. And I also know that
Samartha's always extolling the flavor and nature of his
scratch-grown starter (which sadly didn't do squat for me), so I
thought I'd try some "real" starter culture on rye flour. We'll
see...

Anyway, keep up the effort and your pursuit. That's the kind of
spirit that it takes to become a successful SD baker. Too many of
our readership spend their days and nights reading arcane tomes,
endless "How To" or recipe books, and detailed bio-essays on
cultures. As somebody on this group once told me long ago. Stop
reading and fussing, and bake the damn bread! That's the way you
become a better SD baker (methinks they were spot-on!).

Let us all know how you make out...


Regards all,
Dusty
San Jose

Dusty Bleher wrote:
>
> You're gonna get all sorts of advice from this group (including me
> (:-o)!). Some will insist that you MUST use an amount so small that
> only the finest titanium clad, digital scales with a resolution of
> at least 6-digits can measure it, to those that will tell you it's
> okay just to use all the starter you got and add a little flour to
> just thicken it up a bit. So you should probably get your
> "high-water" (I wuz tryin' ta be nice here...(:-o)!) boots on and
> stand back.

I just sleep with them on, it makes it easier.

> After reading some of the collective wisdom here, I've experimented
> with small starts, medium starts, and large starts over the
> years--several times, even. I wasn't able to discern any
> difference, except in the time it took to pre-ferment the dough.
> While I did that kind of experiment in an effort to find more "sour"
> in my bread, it didn't change anything in that regard either.
> Although many posting here will claim so (and it may well be so,
> just that in my efforts, that's not been the case).

Thanks for that. I know that cold hard facts are hard to come by here,
but what I enjoy about this group is sifting through the many anecdotes
and trying to distill what might be the real factors. It's a game of
experimentation and simplification... but I'm too lazy to do all the
experiments myself. :-) That's why I like to ask for opinions on
admittedly fuzzy subjects from time to time.

>> My start is working fine, as far as the yeast goes, but it doesn't
>> have
>> that classic taste anymore. I don't need really sour bread, I like
> BTDT! In fact, that's what I'm chasing at the moment. The only
> good traces of sour I get are in my "Jewish Rye" loaf.
> (http://www.innerlodge.com/Recipes/Br...h/RyeBread.htm)

I might as well point out that I am very abusive of my starter.
Sometimes I leave it in the fridge for months without using it and then
I have to chisel it out of the crock and cross my fingers. In the past,
before I moved further from my parents, it was often easier to just get
a fresh inoculation from them. (They use it much more as they enjoy
making and eating sourdough biscuits and pancakes. I mostly just like
the bread)

> I've converted my recipes into a standard "form". I've done that as
> I found out that most of what's presented here is opinion supported
> with claimed results. It works for them...and I believe 'em. But
> that makes the recipes too confusing and differnt to fit into my
> time and methology. I've converted all of mine to use common units,
> and have things happen at common times. That way every thing I bake
> isn't a new adventure into figuring out when and what to do.

This is where I'm headed. I want to get into a rhythm where I bake a
loaf once a week.

> If you ask here long enough or often enough, you'll get recipes of
> "help" that run the gamut from being very, VERY useful; to
> pointless, ritualistic suggestions that have nothing at all to do
> with the task at hand (most often the case). For me, at least,
> that's part of the fun of reading here. It's kinda like those that
> insist that only the finest and most accurate digital scale, or
> two-tons of bricks or stones in your oven, or pre-heating things for
> upwards of 72-hours to near the melting point of lead is the ONLY
> WAY you'll be able to make bread.

I've seen a lot of standard newsgroup fare, and quite a bit of fuzz, but
I've learned a lot here. It's a funny thing, but the thing I value the
most of what I've learned here over the years is the practice of
proofing under a plastic container with some humidity. The one I grabbed
from walmart sits nicely over my medium mixing bowl, loaf pan, and/or
free-formed loaf. I just wish it fit in the fridge. I think I picked
this up from Mr. Adams.

What, exactly, is the plastic container you got at Walmart?

Hans Fugal wrote:
>
> I've seen a lot of standard newsgroup fare, and quite a bit of fuzz, but
> I've learned a lot here. It's a funny thing, but the thing I value the
> most of what I've learned here over the years is the practice of
> proofing under a plastic container with some humidity.

When I'm retarding dough, I cover the bowl with a dish towel that's been
wetted and wrung out.

B/

Trix wrote:
> What, exactly, is the plastic container you got at Walmart?
>

http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves/index.html

I found one sponge sufficient, and usually I just set the parchment on
the counter directly and use a peel, but the point is that the skin
doesn't dry up even over 8 hours of rising. This happened to me
yesterday - too much salt and coming out of the fridge. The bread turned
out well enough except for being too salty. Oh well, that's why I do
500g loaves.

I have not had nearly as much luck with wet cloths or plastic wrap, and
this is so dog simple to use! Well worth the couple of bucks.

"Hans Fugal" > wrote:

>the thing I value the
> most of what I've learned here over the years is the practice of
> proofing under a plastic container with some humidity. The one I grabbed
> from walmart sits nicely over my medium mixing bowl, loaf pan, and/or
> free-formed loaf. I just wish it fit in the fridge.


Hans, go the the bakery and get a couple of the disposable cake containers,
clear dome top, plastic plate bottom. They work great for round breads, and
I have reused mine quite a few times now, I put four in my fridge without
taking up too much space, they seal, and everything is clearly visable
except for a little condensation build up.

hutchndi

Hans Fugal wrote:
> I've been reading some of the recent posts with interest, but what's
> still not clear to me is how much starter peopler are using in their
> dough.

With white flour, baker's % of starter flour: 16 % or 20 %
With rye, I use what comes up depending on rye content in:

http://samartha.net/cgi-bin/SD-Dtm-3-03.cgi

In the last box, on the end starting with Dough, the second line,
Ratios: ST-Fl / Tot-Fl is the starter flour baker's % which changes
depending on rye content. I tell you that calculator with the DM3 works
like a charm!

Exceptions are special breads like pumplernickels or very long
fermenting sour "french breads", they have different ratios.


Samartha

Hello Hans & all;

"Hans Fugal" > wrote in message
...
....
>> While I did that kind of experiment in an effort to find more
>> "sour" in my bread, it didn't change anything in that regard
>> either. Although many posting here will claim so (and it may well
>> be so, just that in my efforts, that's not been the case).
>
> Thanks for that. I know that cold hard facts are hard to come by
> here,
Well, truth-be-told, "facts" are not so hard to come by. Just ask
anybody posting here...(:-o)!

The problem is, there's no good way to assess the validity of those
"facts". Just because some "strange" (to me, at least) method
someone posts here works, doesn't mean it's the best, only, or most
likely outcome. There are so many variables: culture, flour,
hydration, temperature, time, and methods; among others. So many
things will work "right" across so many of those variables.

Then along will come some "newbie", who will slavishly follow those
directions. But perhaps he or she can't get their head around how
much slower SD is than commercial yeast. They'll give it an extra
10 or 20 minutes, and then come away from the whole experience sure
and certain in the knowledge that SD doesn't work, and that only
dough 'boosted' with yeast can work. And that then becomes his
opinion. And when posted, becomes a "fact" for him or her self as
well as someone reading here.

That's why it's so critical for those that have a bit more
experience than others to chime in and help keep those folks on
track. Unfortunately, almost all such 'checks' on the progress of a
beginners learning curve will devolve into a rabidly partisan flame
war over whether volumetric is better or worse than weighing
fractional grams; or whether less than a ton of brick, rock, or
stone in the oven is enough; or whether one must heat an oven to
near the melting point of lead for upwards of 24-hours in order to
get the perfect bread; and so on.

Part of this is the natural upshot of knowledgeable folks finding
what works for them. And that's a good thing. But the other part
of it is that some of those musings tend to take on the mantle of a
religious orthodoxy on how "things are to be done!" And that's not
necessarily a good thing.

What one learns eventually is that one can make excellent bread by
either weighing or measuring. By preheating, as well as with a cold
start. By using a stone as well as going bare. By kneading for
upwards of an hour, or by folding and squashing the dough a few
times. What we, as bakers posting here and dispensing some fraction
of our experience must avoid is the reduction of "things that work"
to the dogma of "it has to be done this way!"

That's the prickly issue...

> but what I enjoy about this group is sifting through the many
> anecdotes and trying to distill what might be the real factors.
> It's a game of experimentation and simplification... but I'm too
> lazy to do all the experiments myself. :-) That's why I like to
> ask for opinions on admittedly fuzzy subjects from time to time.
Most definitely the way to learn a lot of things...

....
> I might as well point out that I am very abusive of my starter.
> Sometimes I leave it in the fridge for months without using it and
> then I have to chisel it out of the crock and cross my fingers. In
> the past,
Well, probably not the best way to "care" for your critters. But
you'd be surprised how resilient they are. Some time back I'd
discovered a container of starter that had "disappeared" in the back
of the fridge in our RV. It had to have been back there 6-months of
more. But a few refreshments...and it was as good as new...(and
STILL not very sour...(:-o)!).

....
>> and have things happen at common times. That way every thing I
>> bake isn't a new adventure into figuring out when and what to do.
>
> This is where I'm headed. I want to get into a rhythm where I bake
> a loaf once a week.
Yep. That's the way to do it. My recipes are designed to permit me
to start the evening before, and allow me to finish up the next
morning, with the final bake occurring in the afternoon just in time
for barely warm bread for dinner. They all start out in a similar
manner for consistency. That also permits me to change the final
bread should the need to do so occur with the starter is working.

It suits our way of living, and permits me to incorporate baking
into our daily routine without it becoming a source of grief or
tribulation. However, that having been said. I'm ever mindful that
while my bread turns out great, it isn't yet as sour as I'd like.
And, it may turn out that as I find that magic formula, that my
methods will have to change (and this will almost certainly be the
case). If that happens, then so be it. I'll just have to implement
a different rhythm into my baking...

....
> I've learned a lot here. It's a funny thing, but the thing I value
> the most of what I've learned here over the years is the practice
> of proofing under a plastic container with some humidity. The one
> I grabbed
Hmmm... Interesting. I preferment my starter in a large bowl. And
then I use that same bowl, inverted, on my counter over the dough.
That way it's easy to open and do a quick S&F or F&F, reset the
timer, and toss it back under the bowl. I find that about as easy
as anything. Besides, having to jump in and out of an RV several
times/year, it makes not having to carry along extra stuff, very
handy... But then again, that's just how I use it. YMMV--as I'm
certain it will...(:-o)!

....
> free-formed loaf. I just wish it fit in the fridge. I think I
> picked this up from Mr. Adams.
Yep. Ole' "Dicky" is an endless source of experience, ideas, and
other ruminations. I've learned a lot from that old
curmudgeon...(:-{})!

Later all. I've got my latest iteration of a San Francisco
Sourdough loaf to get to final proof...


Dusty

"Dusty Bleher" > wrote in message
...
>> free-formed loaf. I just wish it fit in the fridge. I think I picked this
>> up from Mr. Adams.
> Yep. Ole' "Dicky" is an endless source of experience, ideas, and other
> ruminations. I've learned a lot from that old curmudgeon...(:-{})!
>
And his "Billowy" loaf recipe is absolutely reliable! (I've yet to try the
latest revision).
Graham

"graham" > wrote in message
news:SW8Gf.355617$tl.57599@pd7tw3no...
....
>>> free-formed loaf. I just wish it fit in the fridge. I think I
>>> picked this up from Mr. Adams.
>> Yep. Ole' "Dicky" is an endless source of experience, ideas, and
>> other ruminations. I've learned a lot from that old
>> curmudgeon...(:-{})!
>>
> And his "Billowy" loaf recipe is absolutely reliable! (I've yet to
> try the latest revision).
Yep. Same here. It seems "bullet proof" and easy to make. I try
to direct newbies to because of that. Even the most dowdy of
starters should do well with it.

Likewise, I've not yet had a chance to try his latest version. But
if it's a robust as the previous one, it should do well.

At the moment, "Dicky" gave me a tip on sourness off-list. I've
changed my method on the loaf under construction at the moment to
see if there's any traction there. I'll let y'all know if I've
drilled yet another dry hole or not...


Dusty
....

"Dusty Bleher" >
wrote in message ...

> ... "Dicky" gave me a tip on sourness off-list.

I gave you the same tip I always give -- the flavors, including
sour, develop as the dough rises. Preferments should not be
sour. Average amateur sourdough will collapse before it gets
noticeably sour. Good dough takes some work, but can survive
the needed long rise, and deflation if that is done to control
bloat.

--
Dicky

Hello Dick & all;

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
news:ACfGf.6988$0i1.520@trnddc04...

....
> ... "Dicky" gave me a tip on sourness off-list.

I gave you the same tip I always give -- the flavors, including
sour, develop as the dough rises. Preferments should not be
sour. Average amateur sourdough will collapse before it gets
[That's fine to say, harder to verify (either way). OTOH; it's
during the preferment stage that the critters get their act together
and all begin pulling in the same direction. You're gonna hafta go
some to convince me that only the yeasts proliferate during
preferment, and the LB's stay patiently dormant.

I don't know that (or if) the preferment gets sour, as I don't taste
it. When I smell it, it has a yeasty/fermenting fruit nose (as
least some of my cultures--others come across as different) but not
sour (by smell). Does that mean it didn't get "sour" on preferment?
I don't know. How would one tell?]

noticeably sour. Good dough takes some work, but can survive
the needed long rise, and deflation if that is done to control
bloat.
[Yep. That's what I got out of your instructions. And that's what
I've been fooling with. Last example got a bit of sour. So I think
I'm working in the right direction.

The one that was supposed to be worked today...got a reprieve, as
the nitwit holding the whisk mixed up all the water flour...but
forgot to add the culture. So that sponge managed to smell like a
wet puppy this AM, instead of the heady, earthy aromas of a working
culture...<big sigh!>]


L8r all,
Dusty
....