In an effort to have a firmer dough at bake time, I tried the "no
knead" technique. I still ended up with gloopy dough that would not
hold its shape after forming into boules. There is some oven spring,
but bread is still kinda flat and dense.

I have been using a sponge method with a total hydration of 60%. 28%
of the flour and 55% of the water go into the sponge upfront. The
sponge ferments overnight (~14 hrs), then the rest is added, mixed and
fermented about 4 hours (with real good "doubling"). Boules are shaped
and let rise another hour or two, then slashed and baked.

The only thing I know to try now is reduce the hydration to say, 55%.

Am I on the right track?

Thanks,

Todd K.

On 19 Apr 2006 08:02:51 -0700, Todd K. > wrote:
>
> In an effort to have a firmer dough at bake time, I tried the "no
> knead" technique. I still ended up with gloopy dough that would not
> hold its shape after forming into boules. There is some oven spring,
> but bread is still kinda flat and dense.
>
> I have been using a sponge method with a total hydration of 60%. 28%
> of the flour and 55% of the water go into the sponge upfront. The
> sponge ferments overnight (~14 hrs), then the rest is added, mixed and
> fermented about 4 hours (with real good "doubling"). Boules are shaped
> and let rise another hour or two, then slashed and baked.
>
> The only thing I know to try now is reduce the hydration to say, 55%.
>
> Am I on the right track?


Hmmm... I can imagine a post in an art related newsgroup. "I made a
painting of my aunt Alice. I used good paint, a good brush and canvas.
But... it doesn't look anything like her. Am I on the right track?"

There are a number of no-knead techniques. I have used, and expoused, a
stretch and fold technique. When you stretch and fold, you do it often
enough that the dough is developed. You can tell when this happens by
feel. Some doughs need more stretch and folds, others less. You have to go
by feel. But, that's not all there is to it.

With 60% total hydration, the dough should be fairly firm. However, despite
this being rec.food.sourdough, I don't know from your post that your sponge
is a sourdough sponge. I'll assume it is.

The numbers you provide about the sponge makes me think it is too liquid.
And with a liquid starter, things happen more quickly than with a dryer
starter. As a result, in 14 hours, your starter could be in pretty bad
shape. Bad enough shape to quickly start what DIck calls "dough rot". When
a starter gets hungry enough, the starter can produce enzymes which can
breakdown protein. This causes problems with regards to the consistency of
the dough.

When you let the dough rise too long in the final rise, you can get a spread
out dough. When the dough reaches its peak, you need to bake it. If it
sits too long, then you get into troubles.

In short, a number of things could be happening here, and I am afraid your
note doesn't give me enough information to make strong suggestions.

Mike

"Todd K." > wrote in message
ups.com...
> In an effort to have a firmer dough at bake time, I tried the "no
> knead" technique. I still ended up with gloopy dough that would not
> hold its shape after forming into boules. There is some oven spring,
> but bread is still kinda flat and dense.
>


You know, I had been pretty much doing the "no-knead" thing for all my
bread for quite a few months now, and I had been pretty happy with my
loaves. The last two bakes I had felt I had been missing something that I
originally wanted to get from my bread baking, the actual interaction with
the dough, kneading it on my counter for awhile. So I let myself go and
kneaded my sourdough, same recipe usual hydration wet and sticky and all, no
"autoyse step" though, for a good half hour after which it was pretty well
firmed up. I really enjoyed it and put on some music.

Anyways, after doing this I let my dough bulk proof for the usual time, only
did one stretch and fold in the middle (more like deflating and tucking
under the edges while still in the bowl) and I have been very happily
surprised with the results. Most people it seems try the no "knead
technique" after getting good with kneaded dough, I pretty much started out
with the technique, having read so much about it from the start of my bread
baking. The method certainly works, does a good job and the loaves raise
well, lots of different sized holes too, some larger than desired (due to
all the stretch an folds). Firmness at baketime seems more dependant on the
number of stretch and folds figured into the bulk rise. But the dough I
kneaded for so long got much smoother and rose even higher, with much more
uniform holes. Hey if I enjoy it, from what I understand you really cant
over knead by hand.

hutchndi

Todd K. wrote:
> In an effort to have a firmer dough at bake time, I tried the "no
> knead" technique. I still ended up with gloopy dough that would not
> hold its shape after forming into boules. .....> Thanks,
>
> Todd K.

HI Todd,

I had exactly that problem when I switched to continuous propagation of
my starter. I thought I was doing exactly what I'd been doing for
years, but I quickly realised after a few bakes that my starter was
slowly starving to death. So I did some reading and some experiments
and based on what I'd read from Samartha and Dicky I started feeding my
starter in the same way that they suggested feeding the final dough. I
give the new dough a 20-25% inoculation of starter every twelve hours.
So you really only knead a teaspoon or two of starter to end up with
two or three large loaves in 36 hours. It makes the best bread I've
ever made. I don't use a sponge anymore. Maybe Samartha's DM3 method
gives better flavour I don't know, it sounds a bit too involved for me
or what Dicky does is better I don't know. I have to say I just skim
over when I see floz (Sorry Dicky). Anyway. The short of it. Feed your
starter more, a lot more.

I don't think it's anything to do with your kneading.

TG

"TG" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Todd K. wrote:
>> In an effort to have a firmer dough at bake time, I tried the "no
>> knead" technique. I still ended up with gloopy dough that would not
>> hold its shape after forming into boules. .....> Thanks,
>>
>> Todd K.
>
> HI Todd,
>
> I had exactly that problem when I switched to continuous propagation of
> my starter. I thought I was doing exactly what I'd been doing for
> years, but I quickly realised after a few bakes that my starter was
> slowly starving to death. So I did some reading and some experiments
> and based on what I'd read from Samartha and Dicky I started feeding my
> starter in the same way that they suggested feeding the final dough. I
> give the new dough a 20-25% inoculation of starter every twelve hours.
> So you really only knead a teaspoon or two of starter to end up with
> two or three large loaves in 36 hours. It makes the best bread I've
> ever made. I don't use a sponge anymore. Maybe Samartha's DM3 method
> gives better flavour I don't know, it sounds a bit too involved for me
> or what Dicky does is better I don't know. I have to say I just skim
> over when I see floz (Sorry Dicky). Anyway. The short of it. Feed your
> starter more, a lot more.
>
> I don't think it's anything to do with your kneading.
>
> TG
>

TG do you really think Todd's problem is this deep? I let my starter develop
for 16 -18 hours (using about a cup of it in a 2 loaf recipe) and still I
can get my boules firm enough to hold their shape and rise well above the
density he describes, even using the no knead technique.

hutchndi

Thanks for all the replies. Based on what I've read, my sponge may be
overdone after 14 hours at 86% hydration. I am going to try cutting
the water in half in the sponge (58% hydration) and go from there.

Todd K.

Thanks for all the replies. Based on what I've read, my sponge may be
overdone after 14 hours at 86% hydration. I am going to try cutting
the water in half in the sponge (58% hydration) and go from there.

Todd K.

On 4/19/06, hutchndi > wrote:

> TG do you really think Todd's problem is this deep? I let my starter
> develop
> for 16 -18 hours (using about a cup of it in a 2 loaf recipe) and still I
> can get my boules firm enough to hold their shape and rise well above the
> density he describes, even using the no knead technique.


Sadly, the original poster didn't give a lot of details. So, I'll fall back
on my time honored mantra, "It all depends."

If the starter is healthy, which is actually pretty rare among amateur
bakers, the long rise might not be a problem.

However, if you consistently underfeed a starter the critters that can make
proteolytic enzyme (I am *SO* sure I mispelled that) will take over the
culture. The pretolytic enzyme allows the critters to break down protein.
Once a culture learns that trick, it is finicky at best and generally
unstable. At that point, you are better off creating a fresh starter.

I've had that happen. The starter developes an acetone like smell.... while
you can try to rehabilitate the starter, the next time you skip a feeding
the critters with the proteolytic enzymes will take over again.

That said, if his starter is weak, or has the nasty critters in it, a 16 to
18 hour rise at high hydration could very well cause some very real
problems.

A thicker starter, a healthier starter, and/or a shorter rise could help in
that case.

However, it could also be batch to batch variations in flour, the O.P.
getting lazy about loafing, the O.P. letting the final rise go on too long
or a dozen other things.

Mike

Todd K. wrote:
> Thanks for all the replies. Based on what I've read, my sponge may be
> overdone after 14 hours at 86% hydration. I am going to try cutting
> the water in half in the sponge (58% hydration) and go from there.
>
> Todd K.

HI Todd,

Before doing that why not try feeding more? I did a few bakes using 65%
starter throughout the building of the starter and then a few bakes
with 100 % for one or a two stages. I found that I got a better flavour
by adding the 100% stage and because of the way that I'm feeding it
makes sense to have that as the last stage. I suppose you might get
away with calling that a sponge, I don't know but at 20-25% of the
total dough I think that's stretching it.

Just my two penneth.

Hutch, sorry mate, I'm not ignoring you, but I don't know what to say
really other than what I've said. This is what I've found the biggest
improvements with since I started baking with a starter in years. I'm
not saying you're wrong. It's just general advice to someone I don't
know.

Cheers

TG

Are we supposed to appologize to someone before or after we post? Can't
you people just communicate what you need to say? Do you need to be so
scientific? For crying out LOUD? Come ON!!!! You're not serious? Just
tell us how YOU bake IT!!!!

On 4/19/06, Mary > wrote:
>
> Are we supposed to appologize to someone before or after we post? Can't
> you people just communicate what you need to say? Do you need to be so
> scientific? For crying out LOUD? Come ON!!!! You're not serious? Just
> tell us how YOU bake IT!!!!


While baking IS important, several bread gurus have said that baking only
contributes about 10% of the overall quality of the bread. Yes, you can
ruin a lot of good work with careless baking, but many of the things people
obsess over aren't really that important.... stones, cold starts, steam and
on and on and on.

Actually, this thread seems to be very clear, with people communicating
exactly what they intended to, though a bit more information from the
original poster about what he was doing might have helped...

Mike

Mary wrote:
> Are we supposed to appologize to someone before or after we post? Can't
> you people just communicate what you need to say? Do you need to be so
> scientific? For crying out LOUD? Come ON!!!! You're not serious? Just
> tell us how YOU bake IT!!!!

Go back to helping folks use PAM and crockpots. <g>

Alright already! Here's my SOP P

Sponge:
1/4 cup starter (week old from refridgerator)
1 cup WW flour
1 cup Bread flour
1.5 cup water

Let sponge ferment 14 hours

Added to sponge:
1 cup water
4.66 cup bread flour (699 g)
20 grams salt

knead for 12 minutes
Fermented 4 hours at room temp,
Punched down, fermented in fridge for 22 hours
Split into two equal balls
Let sit at room temp for 1 hour
Shaped, proofed in oiled bowls for 2 hours
Baked for about 40 minutes at about 400F on gas grill w/ wood chips on
a pizza stone

I took Todd's formula and converted to grams. The water is
staightforward. I used an internet site to convert ounces to grams. For
the flour I used Todd's measu 4.66 cups = 699 grams and also a
Dakota Maid flour bag which listed 5 pounds = 2270 grams = 20 cups or
113.5 grams/cup.

This is what I got (I hope the table posts intact)...


Todd in
grams Dakota Maid in grams
> Sponge:
> 1/4 cup starter (week old from refridgerator) 70 grams 70 grams
> 1 cup WW flour 150 grams 114 grams
> 1 cup Bread flour 150 grams 114 grams
> 1.5 cup water 340 grams 340 grams

total 710
grams 638 grams
water 375
grams 375 grams
flour 335
grams 263 grams
sponge hydration % 112 %
143%
inoculation % 10%
11%

The inoculation % is consistant. But the sponge hydration is a real
issue. The sponge in the Dakota Maid colum will mature much faster
(less flour). At 14 hours its pH might be the same as Todd's but the
relative residual acid load will be higher as its buffering capacity is
reduced (less flour). This increased unbuffered lactic acid load causes
LBs to slow down. It will not affect the yeasts which are sensitive to
acetic acid and not at their threshold. So... depending on which sponge
is actually employed, the culture populations are shifting. The future
proof requirements (time) and the flavor are shifting too.

> Let sponge ferment 14 hours
>
> Added to sponge:
> 1 cup water 227 grams 227 grams
> 4.66 cup bread flour (699 g) 700 grams 529 grams
> 20 grams salt 20 grams 20 grams

total dough 1657 grams
1414 grams
water 602
grams 602 grams
flour 1035
grams 792 grams
dough hydration% 58%
76%
sponge percent 43%
45%

Here, we have a big discontinuity, though notice the sponge %'s are
very similar. It is hard to imagine that the dough is actually at 76%
hydration. Todd would have mentioned the wetness factor. His original
post calculated hydration at 60%. But he was thinking that he should
reduce water to promote proofing firmness. Since It is equally hard to
imagine moving down from 58-60%. We might begin to suspect the old and
recurring issue of how much flour is really in those cups. As a
benchmark... bagel dough (quite stiff) is run at 55% hydration. Now...
if the sponge was over fermented at 14 hours, the dough would feel
flabby (acid load)... unless it had a lot of flour to stiffen it. That
additional flour would support a long bulk fermation (which Todd
employs).

> knead for 12 minutes
> Fermented 4 hours at room temp,
> Punched down, fermented in fridge for 22 hours
> Split into two equal balls
> Let sit at room temp for 1 hour
> Shaped, proofed in oiled bowls for 2 hours
> Baked for about 40 minutes at about 400F on gas grill w/ wood chips on
> a pizza stone

Adding a lot of flour would allow the dough to survive the next 4 hours
at room temp and 22 hours in the refrigerator. Its bulk proof would be
fine, and as Todd says, it doubles, but it's culture is now weighted to
yeasts. This is because the sponge LBs were over fermented and don't
carry vigorously into the bulk proof AND the long refrigerator stage
prevents their recovery.

At this point the question to Todd is... "what does the dough smell
like at final shaping? does it smell sour?" This will tell us something
about where the yeasts are.

In reference to another thread, where Dusty and I are squared off on
volume vs weight, I hope Dusty will respond.

I have tried to establish here that the inoculation ratios of starter
to sponge, and, sponge to dough were very similar whether we used cups
or scales. This indicates water, not flour, drives this observation.
This is worth pondering.

It is significant that we do not have a firm grasp of flour levels,
which is what ferments.

I took Todd's formula and converted to grams. The water is
staightforward. I used an internet site to convert ounces to grams. For
the flour I used Todd's measu 4.66 cups = 699 grams and also a
Dakota Maid flour bag which listed 5 pounds = 2270 grams = 20 cups or
113.5 grams/cup.

This is what I got (I hope the table posts intact)...


Todd in
grams Dakota Maid in grams
> Sponge:
> 1/4 cup starter (week old from refridgerator) 70 grams 70 grams
> 1 cup WW flour 150 grams 114 grams
> 1 cup Bread flour 150 grams 114 grams
> 1.5 cup water 340 grams 340 grams

total 710 grams
638 grams
water 375 grams
375 grams
flour 335 grams
263 grams
sponge hydration % 112 % 143%
inoculation % 10% 11%

The inoculation % is consistant. But the sponge hydration is a real
issue. The sponge in the Dakota Maid colum will mature much faster
(less flour). At 14 hours its pH might be the same as Todd's but the
relative residual acid load will be higher as its buffering capacity is
reduced (less flour). This increased unbuffered lactic acid load causes
LBs to slow down. It will not affect the yeasts which are sensitive to
acetic acid and not at their threshold. So... depending on which sponge
is actually employed, the culture populations are shifting. The future
proof requirements (time) and the flavor are shifting too.

> Let sponge ferment 14 hours
>
> Added to sponge:
> 1 cup water 227 grams 227 grams
> 4.66 cup bread flour (699 g) 700 grams 529 grams
> 20 grams salt 20 grams 20 grams

total dough 1657 grams 1414
grams
water 602 grams 602
grams
flour 1035 grams
792 grams
dough hydration% 58% 76%
sponge percent 43% 45%

Here, we have a big discontinuity, though notice the sponge %'s are
very similar. It is hard to imagine that the dough is actually at 76%
hydration. Todd would have mentioned the wetness factor. His original
post calculated hydration at 60%. But he was thinking that he should
reduce water to promote proofing firmness. Since It is equally hard to
imagine moving down from 58-60%. We might begin to suspect the old and
recurring issue of how much flour is really in those cups. As a
benchmark... bagel dough (quite stiff) is run at 55% hydration. Now...
if the sponge was over fermented at 14 hours, the dough would feel
flabby (acid load)... unless it had a lot of flour to stiffen it. That
additional flour would support a long bulk fermation (which Todd
employs).

> knead for 12 minutes
> Fermented 4 hours at room temp,
> Punched down, fermented in fridge for 22 hours
> Split into two equal balls
> Let sit at room temp for 1 hour
> Shaped, proofed in oiled bowls for 2 hours
> Baked for about 40 minutes at about 400F on gas grill w/ wood chips on
> a pizza stone

Adding a lot of flour would allow the dough to survive the next 4 hours
at room temp and 22 hours in the refrigerator. Its bulk proof would be
fine, and as Todd says, it doubles, but it's culture is now weighted to
yeasts. This is because the sponge LBs were over fermented and don't
carry vigorously into the bulk proof AND the long refrigerator stage
prevents their recovery.

At this point the question to Todd is... "what does the dough smell
like at final shaping? does it smell sour?" This will tell us something
about where the yeasts are.

In reference to another thread, where Dusty and I are squared off on
volume vs weight, I hope Dusty will respond.

I have tried to establish here that the inoculation ratios of starter
to sponge, and, sponge to dough were very similar whether we used cups
or scales. This indicates water, not flour, drives this observation.
This is worth pondering.

It is significant that we do not have a firm grasp of flour levels,
which is what ferments.

Todd K. wrote:
> Alright already! Here's my SOP P
>
> Sponge:
> 1/4 cup starter (week old from refridgerator)
> 1 cup WW flour
> 1 cup Bread flour
> 1.5 cup water
>
> Let sponge ferment 14 hours
>
> Added to sponge:
> 1 cup water
> 4.66 cup bread flour (699 g)
> 20 grams salt
>

75 g of start

150 ww
150 bf
360 w

240 w
700 bf
20

----------------
1000 flour

600 water
==========
± 60% hydration
2% salt

Hi Todd, I've roughly transposed your recipe in terms I work with. I
don't think it's too bad but I would add an extra feeding stage to your
75g of starter. May be 12 hours before take a couple of teaspoons of
your week old starter and make it up to your 1/4 of a cup. Try
fermenting it for just 12 hours too.

I never knock back, I'm not tooooo fussy with shaping but I don't knock
back or punch down.Depending on the temp of your fridge I wouldn't
really consider that proofing. I only put my dough in the fridge to
suite my schedule and pretty much don't count fridge time. I sometimes
put leftover dough back in the fridge and bake it the next day being
careful not to knock it back. I like this bit of bread. I wouldn't do
it for a lot of dough though because I don't have room.

If this extra feed doesn't work just for kicks try one more feed. If
that doesn't work. I'm stumped. You'd better ask the big boys. : -)

Let us know how you get on and what you try.

TG