Hello All,
The other day, I decided to tackle a three stage 70 percent sourdough
rye (the detmolder method) as described in Hamelman's book, "Bread". I
even concocted a unit that could maintain temperature to a single
degree. Yea!

My refreshening, basic sour, and full sour went well. But, when I
added the ingredients for the final dough, I suspected that disaster
was an hour away. Hamelman states, "The dough will be sticky, but
avoid any inclination to add flour. There will be no perceptive gluten
development." Uh huh. The final dough looked and behaved like a
thick, sticky batter. Nonplussed, I kept my hands wet with cold water
and made a round mass. One dough went into my preheated oven, the
other into my preheated barbecue. (I decided to buy La Cloche for the
barbecue since the cast iron would be too heavy to lift.)

Neither loaf really rose. The oven baked rye is a formidable black;
the cloche baked rye is a gorgeous mahogany. Now, I know, according to
Hamelman, the rye bread should be "rich dark brown, almost black." But
a black brick? Hamelman recommends waiting 24 hours before slicing the
loaf to develop the crumb. If anyone is interested, I'll let you know
how it tastes.

Has anyone had success with a three phase sourdough rye?
Thanks,
Diane

BestBread wrote:
[..]
> Has anyone had success with a three phase sourdough rye?

Yes, all the time any % up to 100 %, even full grain rye.

Once I had a dud, but that was when I spruced up an old starter just by
doubling. That was clearly a starter issue.

Other than that - strictly DM3 and no problem at all.

What I found different on your description is that I rise the rye loafs
so they have the bubbles when they get in the oven. I don't know how
much you rose them before baking. Maybe that's the issue?

And - don't you expect a "full rise" from a higher % rye dough as
compared to a "full rise" with white. Won't happen.

You may poke around at http://samartha.net/SD/, maybe you find something
useful.

DM3 works like a charm.

Samartha

Samartha,
Yes, indeed my dough had bubbles when they went into the oven. But,
the dough was literally like a sticky batter - there was no sense of
extension. I'm used to working with "sticky" dough, but this had more
like a grainy, thick mud-like consistency.

The formula I used is 75% hydration, so maybe that was part of the
problem.
freshening = 6 hours at 77 degrees
basic sour = 18 hours at 79
full sour = 4 hours at 85
bulk fermentation = 20 minutes
final fermentation = 1 hour at 82
A lot of time for little result.
I checked out your website (with the gorgeous photo) ; I'll have
to revisit when I can really consider the information. Thanks!
Diane

BestBread wrote:
> Samartha,
> Yes, indeed my dough had bubbles when they went into the oven. But,
> the dough was literally like a sticky batter - there was no sense of
> extension. I'm used to working with "sticky" dough, but this had more
> like a grainy, thick mud-like consistency.

Yep - the slimy character is coming from the rye. It's a different world
- the darker side of bread baking;-)

> The formula I used is 75% hydration, so maybe that was part of the
> problem.
> freshening = 6 hours at 77 degrees
> basic sour = 18 hours at 79
> full sour = 4 hours at 85
> bulk fermentation = 20 minutes
> final fermentation = 1 hour at 82
> A lot of time for little result.

That all makes total sense. The issue is however, that often one cannot
take a recipe without checking if it really works - especially with
hydration. My thinking is that rye - however full grain and flour
coarseness/fine varieties are used - can have a wide variation. So -
experimenting and varying until you get what you want.

The loaf should keep it's shape and not run away. If stuff like this
happens - often I just mess up with measuring or calculating, then I try
to fudge it so it kind of feels right. It goes like: Ghee, what happened
here - interesting, that's never gonna work.

Happened in Brazil. I had to lower the hydration I normally use by 8 %,
then it came out right.

So....

Samartha

BestBread wrote:

> Has anyone had success with a three phase sourdough rye?

As Samartha remarked, it's a different world. It doesn't rise and, yes,
it feels like glop. But the taste is everything...

Give it a couple of days to cure. Did it smell fruity (like a pie)
during the bake?

Hi Will,
Yes, it smelled fruity. I couldn't wait a couple of days for the rye
to cure, so I cut a few slices this afternoon. Since the dough never
rose, the slices were low and wide. I tried one with butter; one with
almond butter; one with smoked salmon; and another with dark Norwegian
goat cheese. (What can I say? I must have a cast-iron stomach.)
Anyway, the crumb is dark, almost carmelized, and looks good. The
taste is arresting. You think you know what it's going to taste like,
but as you continue to chew on the rye, you realize there's yet another
taste - a sour kick.

My dough was beyond glop; it truly had a thick gritty batter
consistency. When I tried to shape the wet dough, it stuck between and
on my fingers (later my huband could follow my trail in the kitchen.)
Next time I'll add more flour to get to the tacky-sticky stage.

I wonder if anyone has a SD recipe for Finnish rye? I bet that would
really taste even better with my Norwegian cheese.

Diane

BestBread wrote:
> Hello All,
> The other day, I decided to tackle a three stage 70 percent sourdough
> rye (the detmolder method) as described in Hamelman's book, "Bread". I
> even concocted a unit that could maintain temperature to a single
> degree. Yea!
>
> My refreshening, basic sour, and full sour went well. But, when I
> added the ingredients for the final dough, I suspected that disaster
> was an hour away. Hamelman states, "The dough will be sticky, but
> avoid any inclination to add flour. There will be no perceptive gluten
> development." Uh huh. The final dough looked and behaved like a
> thick, sticky batter. Nonplussed, I kept my hands wet with cold water
> and made a round mass. One dough went into my preheated oven, the
> other into my preheated barbecue. (I decided to buy La Cloche for the
> barbecue since the cast iron would be too heavy to lift.)
>
> Neither loaf really rose. The oven baked rye is a formidable black;
> the cloche baked rye is a gorgeous mahogany. Now, I know, according to
> Hamelman, the rye bread should be "rich dark brown, almost black." But
> a black brick? Hamelman recommends waiting 24 hours before slicing the
> loaf to develop the crumb. If anyone is interested, I'll let you know
> how it tastes.
>
> Has anyone had success with a three phase sourdough rye?
> Thanks,
> Diane


You can try

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e58e92d6c6bc18

I make my Borodinsky by 4 phase process but the above is very
sufficient to start with.

Good luck anyway!