Hi all --

I have finally decided (after ogling the bread photos at cookingwithcrack.com) that I MUST assault a pressure cooker for my own personal benefit.
I am awaiting my $8.99 ebay prize now, but am hoping that someone here might humor me and tell me WHAT tools to use to drill the hole in the lid. I've got a drill and a set of high-quality bits, but -- could it be that simple? The thought of drilling metal is kind of scary.

Also -- how big is the final hole? The size of the fittings? I DO wander around the hardware store just to stare at all the nifty assorted hardware pieces with infinite project potential (what could I do with THAT?), but I have no experience with plumbing gear. All of the stuff at http://www.cookingwithcrack.com/bread/steam/index.html is stuff I've seen, but I couldn't tell you anything about them, and if I go shopping right now, I expect I'll be confronted with too many choices to get it right! What do I need, fitting-wise, for the ends of the braided line,and to connect that part to the copper tubing? And are they both about 1/2"? I definitely know the bit over the hole is NOT called "a hex-shaped nut-lookin' thingy with an eyeball."

I've found my oven vent, right where it always was, but can't figure out if I should unscrew the little screen (attached inside the oven) so that the copper tubing will go all the way inside -- it sounds logical, but will it wreck something? Is the screen there just to keep crud from hitting the oven floor? I don't think I'll have to drill anything back there, at least.

Eternally grateful for any help,

Tara

On Sat, 6 May 2006 14:11:13 -0700, TL Banfield
> wrote:

>I've got a drill and a set of high-quality bits, but -- could it be that simple? The thought of drilling metal is kind of scary.

Howdy,

In a word... "yes."

It is that simple.

I would suggest though that you first decide on the fittings
you want to convey the steam into the oven:

Making the drilled hole smaller is tough.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 06 May 2006 21:52:37 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Sat, 6 May 2006 14:11:13 -0700, TL Banfield
> wrote:
>
>>I've got a drill and a set of high-quality bits, but -- could it be that simple? The thought of drilling metal is kind of scary.
>
>Howdy,
>
>In a word... "yes."
>
>It is that simple.
>
>I would suggest though that you first decide on the fittings
>you want to convey the steam into the oven:
>
>Making the drilled hole smaller is tough.
>
>All the best,

Hi again,

Because you have not drilled in metal before, I should have
mentioned one more thing:

Before drilling the hole, you need to make a tiny dent at
the appropriate location. The tool that you want for this is
called a "center punch." Just pick your spot, place the tip
of the punch there, and give it a sharp whack with a hammer.

That will dimple the lid in such a way that the drill will
not start running all over the lid. Without the punch, it is
very difficult to get the bit started properly.

Have fun,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 06 May 2006 21:57:24 -0400
We-all wrote:
> >
> >>I've got a drill and a set of high-quality bits, but -- could it be that simple? The thought of drilling metal is kind of scary.
> >
> >Howdy,
> >
> >In a word... "yes."
> >
> >It is that simple.

So an HSS bit is tough enough for a big ol' pot lid?! Do I just start with a little hole and drill progressively bigger ones (depending on how big it needs to be)?
> >
> >I would suggest though that you first decide on the fittings
> >you want to convey the steam into the oven:
> >
> >Making the drilled hole smaller is tough.
> >

So, things like the little hex-shaped nut-lookin' thingy with an eyeball? Herein lies my problem! Fittings.I do not know what to ask for when I start hassling the hardware guy at Home Depot or McLendon's.

> >All the best,
>
> Hi again,
>
(...center punch technique)

I do indeed have one of those! With a lovely, big, fat blue handle that doesn't care how hard I smack it.
>
> That will dimple the lid in such a way that the drill will
> not start running all over the lid. Without the punch, it is
> very difficult to get the bit started properly.

I'm so lame, I need it to start nails in wood.
>
> Have fun,

I shall! What a speedy group this is.
So....what 'zackly are those fittings I need?? Should I just take a photo of them shopping with me and tell 'em I wanna make one just like it?
Dimly,

Tara

Kenneth wrote:

> Hi again,
>
> Because you have not drilled in metal before, I should have
> mentioned one more thing:
>
> Before drilling the hole, you need to make a tiny dent at
> the appropriate location. The tool that you want for this is
> called a "center punch." Just pick your spot, place the tip
> of the punch there, and give it a sharp whack with a hammer.
>
> That will dimple the lid in such a way that the drill will
> not start running all over the lid. Without the punch, it is
> very difficult to get the bit started properly.


That's right.

but then, there is another "trick", and a warning.

Depending how big your final hole is going to be and how thick your
material is.

1. drill a small - I would call it "pilot hole" - like 1/8" or so - what
is that in metric? 254 / 8 = 3.175 mm - I'd take 2/3 or that - like 2
or 2.5 mm. That's fairly easy to drill with high speed and that gives a
larger drill (drilling with slow speed) guidance all the way through the
material, whereas a "dimple" does not.

2. Drilling the larger hole. You may encounter two situations with
steam cookers. Aluminum one's - that should be easy since the walls are
fairly thick and the material is soft.

The tougher one's are stainless steel. The walls are thin and the
material is tough.

If you have never drilled a hole into sheet metal, I would suggest that
you go to somebody, or a workshop and let them do it for you. They
probably have a drill press where the object to be drilled can be put on
with clamps and does not move. Or they are skilled and experienced
enough to be able to do it.

What can and will happen with sheet metal and a larger hole - like 1/2"
(12.5 mm) or even 1/4" (6.3 mm), that the drill, when it takes the last
"bite" at the end of the hole, will get caught and either jerk the
object to be drilled or the driller. What can happen in this situation
is that the drill bit breaks and since this is hardened, it may break
into pieces, the pieces will fly around, and you definitely to get this
into your or somebody else's eye or body.

Somebody who has drilled sheet metal, will anticipate the final "jerk"
and get it done.

In any case - safety goggles are advised, because of the possible drill
bit breakage.

As for the fittings, you'll probably want some copper tubing and a
fitting which has a thread (going into the steamer) on one side and a
press ring fitting on the other side. Maybe you want to put a valve into
the pipe to be able to shut the steam off.

The sealing on those fittings is done with a dough nut shaped ring which
goes over the (deburred) pipe and is pressed to seal with a nut.

My guess is that you may want a 1/4" copper pipe and the hole for a
fitting like that may well be 1/2" - 12.5 mm. To drill a hole of that
size into sheet metal in no fun. You'll have to drill progressively
larger holes to avoid getting the drill bit caught in the final jerk,
bending the metal and making it difficult to seal.

All that goes for the stainless steel steamer. With the aluminum
steamer, you may want to drill progressively larger as well.

As for the hss drill bit - all drill bit nowadays are hss and do the job.

So - good luck.

Samartha

TL Banfield wrote:

> So....what 'zackly are those fittings I need?? Should I just take a photo of them shopping with me and tell 'em I wanna make one just like it?
> Dimly,

Probably a good idea! Basically, there is one fitting you need, and a
nut to attach it. It will be an adapter, from hose to something else.
One end of the fitting needs to match the high pressure hose. This will
be a cone-shaped tip, with a thread somewhat back from the end. The
other end of the fitting really ought to be a straight (not tapered)
thread, maybe 1/2" diameter, with an available nut you can screw on the
inside to attach it. You don't need to worry about a *really* tight seal
there, because the tubing to the oven with be wide open, and you should
never see any siginificant pressure. Keep the original pressure valve
intact, and even if the steam line somehow gets plugged up, you won't be
making a bomb.

Dave

Dave Bell wrote:
[...]
> inside to attach it. You don't need to worry about a *really* tight seal
> there, because the tubing to the oven with be wide open, and you should
> never see any siginificant pressure.

Isn't the idea behind a pressure cooker to develop a higher cooking
temperature than what's possible with water under atmospheric pressure?

This is accomplished by allowing pressure to build up inside the cooker
and increase the boiling point.

If you don't allow pressure to build up, you won't get a higher steam
temperature than 100 C - 212 F, and by the time you pipe it through to
the oven, the steam cools even more and condensates, so water will drip
out the pipe into the oven.

I would think that the idea behind using a pressure cooker is to let
some pressure and temperature build up by closing a valve put in between
the oven and the steamer and then, when steam is desired, open the valve.

> Keep the original pressure valve
> intact, and even if the steam line somehow gets plugged up, you won't be
> making a bomb.

Well, depending how the pressure valve is made - I have a sterilizer
where it can be unscrewed - and if this is the case, one only needs to
put in a T-fitting between the lid and the pressure valve to branch off
the steam. No sheet metal drilling of lids would be needed in such a
situation.

Samartha

On Sat, 06 May 2006 23:09:26 -0600, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Isn't the idea behind a pressure cooker to develop a higher cooking
>temperature than what's possible with water under atmospheric pressure?

Howdy,

Not for the steam generation purposes we are after here.

With this setup, there is no pressure built...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1146974231.16922.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com...

> As for the hss drill bit - all drill bit nowadays are hss and do the job.
>
> So - good luck.
>
> Samartha
>

That's good to know, I wasn't aware of that fact. Anyhoo, if someone has
never drilled anything metal before, its a good idea to oil the drill bit to
keep the heat down, unless your drilling cast iron. That last tip is
something I learned in the machine shop when I worked for Grinnell, though I
don't know what's in cast iron that keeps the drill from overheating, but in
my experience it seems to be true.

hutchndi

Kenneth wrote:
> On Sat, 06 May 2006 23:09:26 -0600, Samartha Deva
> > wrote:
>
>> Isn't the idea behind a pressure cooker to develop a higher cooking
>> temperature than what's possible with water under atmospheric pressure?
>
> Howdy,
>
> Not for the steam generation purposes we are after here.

"We" ?? - I thought you have it (steam generation) already built in your
oven. So, you would not be part of it since you already have it, right?

Or did I miss something?

Kenneth, you pretty much always seem to use the "we" word pretty
undiscriminatory. Is this another American thing I don't understand?

I always get perplexed when somebody includes (or excludes) me in a "we"
crowd. An extreme example would be "we went to war".

Stuff like this makes me cringe - language use is totally undefining and
wishy-washy.

> With this setup, there is no pressure built...

If I would do it, I would to the hyper steam thing with pressure and a
valve, so no water is dripping out of that pipe, you bet!

Guess, I would be excluded from the pressure-less steam injection "we"
crowd, whoever it is in this case.

So - how does the steam system work in your oven? Is there a valve you
open - or gets opened by button-push - is there a water reservoir or is
the steam generated instantaneously, like the flow-through steamer
element in an espresso machine (there is an idea, use an espresso
machine for making steam, no drilling holes in lids and have espresso as
a side effect).

It would be very nice, if you could share the internal workings of your
oven steam generation system.

Thank you,

Samartha


S.

On Sun, 07 May 2006 08:08:33 -0600, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>> On Sat, 06 May 2006 23:09:26 -0600, Samartha Deva
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Isn't the idea behind a pressure cooker to develop a higher cooking
>>> temperature than what's possible with water under atmospheric pressure?
>>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> Not for the steam generation purposes we are after here.
>
>"We" ?? - I thought you have it (steam generation) already built in your
>oven. So, you would not be part of it since you already have it, right?
>
>Or did I miss something?
>
>Kenneth, you pretty much always seem to use the "we" word pretty
>undiscriminatory. Is this another American thing I don't understand?
>
>I always get perplexed when somebody includes (or excludes) me in a "we"
>crowd. An extreme example would be "we went to war".
>
>Stuff like this makes me cringe - language use is totally undefining and
>wishy-washy.
>
>> With this setup, there is no pressure built...
>
>If I would do it, I would to the hyper steam thing with pressure and a
>valve, so no water is dripping out of that pipe, you bet!
>
>Guess, I would be excluded from the pressure-less steam injection "we"
>crowd, whoever it is in this case.
>
>So - how does the steam system work in your oven? Is there a valve you
>open - or gets opened by button-push - is there a water reservoir or is
>the steam generated instantaneously, like the flow-through steamer
>element in an espresso machine (there is an idea, use an espresso
>machine for making steam, no drilling holes in lids and have espresso as
>a side effect).
>
>It would be very nice, if you could share the internal workings of your
>oven steam generation system.
>
>Thank you,
>
>Samartha
>
>
>S.
>

Howdy,

The "we" was me, and the person to whom I was responding...

My former oven was a Garland commercial. It was for that one
that I built the pressure cooker rig of the sort that the OP
wanted to make.

The fact that the boiler was a pressure cooker created some
confusion because with the open tube, it created no pressure
whatever. I tried to remember to mention this in my original
posts about the rig. I used the pressure cooker only because
it seemed to be a convenient way to make a boiler that could
have the lid removed for filling, and yet retain a
reasonable seal once steam was generated.

I used the old setup for about 20 years happily.

In my new home, I installed a Bongard M2FE deck oven.

It generates steam by heating a heavy steel plate
electrically. Above the plate, runs a perforated stainless
steel tube connected to a water supply with an electrically
controlled valve.

Once the plate is extremely hot, the user can push a button
on the front of the oven.

That opens the valve, and sprays water onto the hot plate.

The chamber holding the plate is connected to the oven
chamber itself and so when the burst of steam forms, the
steam rolls into the oven.

On the front of the oven is a handle that controls valves at
the rear of the oven. When those are closed, the steam is
contained. When they are opened, the steam goes up a flue at
the rear.

I hope that this gives you the info you wanted, but would be
happy to hear from you if you have further questions that I
might be able to answer.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...

> With this setup, there is no pressure built...

Well, in that case, there should be no problem to attach to
the protrusion the pressure weight normally rests on (with
a short segment of silicone tubing, for instance).

When I was a kid, most any kid knew, or knew some one
who knew, how to go to the hardware store, select a
threaded brass fitting, a tap drill, and a tap (to cut a thread
in the tap drill hole to allow the fitting to be screwed in).

In China and India, probably in Cuba and Mexico and maybe
in Afghanistan, that may still be true.

Well, if that little problem is too technologically complicated
for our advanced culture, just relax, because the amount of
steam you could get in the oven that way does not make enough
difference to notice.

Kenneth solved his problem finally by shelling out some big
bucks to by a commercial bread oven with a steam generator
built in. The question shall remain why, if his pressure-cooker
trick was so efficacious, he did that.

--
Dicky

On Sun, 7 May 2006 08:54:06 -0400, "hutchndi"
> wrote:

>though I
>don't know what's in cast iron that keeps the drill from overheating

Howdy,

I think it's just the (typical) mass of cast iron objects.
The stock acts as a heat sink...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
[..]
> I hope that this gives you the info you wanted, but would be
> happy to hear from you if you have further questions that I
> might be able to answer.


Thank you, this is great to know how oven like yours work with steam
injection - very interesting.

Samartha

Samartha Deva wrote:

> Isn't the idea behind a pressure cooker to develop a higher cooking
> temperature than what's possible with water under atmospheric pressure?
>
> I would think that the idea behind using a pressure cooker is to let
> some pressure and temperature build up by closing a valve put in between
> the oven and the steamer and then, when steam is desired, open the valve.

I suppose that's feasible, and with the pressure relief in place, it
should be safe. Definately need an insulated valve handle!

>> Keep the original pressure valve intact, and even if the steam line
>> somehow gets plugged up, you won't be making a bomb.
>
> Well, depending how the pressure valve is made - I have a sterilizer
> where it can be unscrewed - and if this is the case, one only needs to
> put in a T-fitting between the lid and the pressure valve to branch off
> the steam. No sheet metal drilling of lids would be needed in such a
> situation.

Good idea! Tara could unscrew the existing fitting,and take it to the
hardware store. She's need a T plus required adapters, to preserve a
male end to screw backinto the boss on the lid, a female end opposite
that, to attach the original relief fitting/weight, and whatever on the
side, to attach the braided line or copper tubing. I liked the braided
line in the photos originally referenced, because it insulated the
tubing for the first couple of feet, and (apparently) was made up with a
simple friction fit to the copper, providing another place where high
pressure could safely vent, in case of failure.

Dave

Samartha Deva wrote:

> Kenneth, you pretty much always seem to use the "we" word pretty
> undiscriminatory. Is this another American thing I don't understand?

Whenever it's time to accomplish any kind of major chore that involves
hauling and I say "I think we need to...." the spousal unit refers to
this as the "Royal You."

B/