I usually use barley malt (Maris-Otter) when making Borodinsky. I
recently tried rye malt (bought at a brewery store) for the first time,
and the results were promising. While there was less malt odor during
the scald than with the maris-otter, the final loaf was moister, had a
wonderful malt flavor, and, most surprisingly, did not crumble as much
as it does when made with barley. No idea why rye malt changed the
texture compared with barley when it's only 3T out of the whole loaf.
Anyone have an theories? Or was it just "luck"?

PS: I can't seem to reply to the original thread because it's over 30
days old:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...2&q=borodinsky

================================================== ====
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
From: hofer - view profile
Date: Wed, Jul 20 2005 10:43 pm
Ron wrote:
> The reason I use kvas concentrate is that it is a syrup made almost
> entirely of dark rye malt and I sometimes use it instead of the dark
> rye malt grain that is specified as an ingredient for the zavarka.

I thought that there was not any reason for looking for something to
substitute rye malt when you could get rye malt. This concentrate is
obviously non-diastatic.

Jonathan Kandell wrote:
> I usually use barley malt (Maris-Otter) when making Borodinsky. I
> recently tried rye malt (bought at a brewery store) for the first time,
> and the results were promising. While there was less malt odor during
> the scald than with the maris-otter, the final loaf was moister, had a
> wonderful malt flavor, and, most surprisingly, did not crumble as much
> as it does when made with barley. No idea why rye malt changed the
> texture compared with barley when it's only 3T out of the whole loaf.
> Anyone have an theories? Or was it just "luck"?
>
> PS: I can't seem to reply to the original thread because it's over 30
> days old:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...2&q=borodinsky
>
> ================================================== ====
> ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
> From: hofer - view profile
> Date: Wed, Jul 20 2005 10:43 pm
> Ron wrote:
> > The reason I use kvas concentrate is that it is a syrup made almost
> > entirely of dark rye malt and I sometimes use it instead of the dark
> > rye malt grain that is specified as an ingredient for the zavarka.
>
> I thought that there was not any reason for looking for something to
> substitute rye malt when you could get rye malt. This concentrate is
> obviously non-diastatic.

Hi Jonathan,

Glad to hear from you.
My theory is that: yes, it was luck. But in the sense that the proper
processing of "scalding" is more important than using Maris-Otter or
Rye malt.
I refreshed to myself your Borodinsky recipe:
"II Zavarka (the scald)
....While the starter if refreshing, scald the rye and malt. If the
flour is
refrigerated use 1 1/2 c boiling water. If flour is room temperature,
then
mix malt and coriander with 1/4c room-temperature water, and then 1 1/4
c
boiling water. Stir while adding boiling water. When cooled to 85 F.,
or
around 2-3 hrs, proceed to step 3."
The goal of "zavarka", as for my understanding, is keeping the
water-flour-malt batter at 63-64C for 90-120 minutes and then cooling.
This temperature is important for saccarification by malt amylase
ferments of flour starch that modifies to sugars.
To "my" recipe, for about 3.6kg of dough, to 300g of rye flour
should 1l of boiled (95-97C) water be added, afterwards 100g of malt
and then the temperature of 63-65C is achieved..
Zavarka is kept at this temperature in oven for 90-120 min.
Now, for original Borodinsky, whole rye flour and "fermented" rye
malt should be used.
We had a discussion with Ronald Feldstein about the nature of this
"fermented" rye malt. Ronald's opinion was that the malt was
non-diastatic, was only added for taste, and could be substituted for
kvas concentrate.
I thought that the malt was diastatic and could be substituted in
either proportion with diastatic base barley or rye malt.
Eventually I have found in a literature that diastatic power of
"fermented" malt is about 1/3 of that of "unfermented". This
info was "translated" to using 1/3 of the amount of malt called by
original recipe, and substituting the rest with rye flour, i.e. 370 g
flour, 1l water, 30 g Maris-Otter or Rye malt.
I used both (Maris-Otter and Rye) malts intermittently, and couldn't
say the difference, but in both cases the bread was just great.
I'll send to your e-mail the pictures of Borodinsky made in masonry
oven (the one with Maris-Otter). It is my desktop wall-paper now!

Leonid