Hi NG!

I am a sushi newbie. Is it possible to roll sushi with (defrosted)
frozen seafood? Or is it neccessary to use fresh caught seafood?

THX
Philipp

Philipp wrote:

> Hi NG!
>
> I am a sushi newbie. Is it possible to roll sushi with (defrosted)
> frozen seafood? Or is it neccessary to use fresh caught seafood?

I would highly recommend using non-raw items for your first attempt.
If you have an Asian market in your area, you could ask if they have
sushi grade fish. Otherwise, I would not use regular fish from a
super market.

You can also order online from www.sushifoods.com. I've heard good
things from other people here.

--
Dan

Dan Logcher > wrote in message >...
> Philipp wrote:
>
> > Hi NG!
> >
> > I am a sushi newbie. Is it possible to roll sushi with (defrosted)
> > frozen seafood? Or is it neccessary to use fresh caught seafood?
>
> I would highly recommend using non-raw items for your first attempt.
> If you have an Asian market in your area, you could ask if they have
> sushi grade fish. Otherwise, I would not use regular fish from a
> super market.
>
> You can also order online from www.sushifoods.com. I've heard good
> things from other people here.

I would definitely follow Dan's advice untill you know what to look
for at the fish market. Using frozen seafood is unavoidabe if you have
a poor selection of fresh, but you gotta thaw the stuff yourself.
NEVER buy thawed seafood out of the fish case and use it for sushi.
Chances are, it's been sitting on ice or worse for a few hours. Shrimp
is probably the worst of the lot... it goes bad real quick. Real crab,
in whatever form is another seafood that looses a lot if thawed too
far ahead of time. Buy IQF product ( Individually Quick Frozen )Take
out what you need , and toss the rest back into the freezer.

Jim

On 10 Mar 2004 17:14:33 -0800, (Jim S.)
wrote:

>Dan Logcher > wrote in message >...
>
>I would definitely follow Dan's advice untill you know what to look
>for at the fish market. Using frozen seafood is unavoidabe if you have
>a poor selection of fresh, but you gotta thaw the stuff yourself.
>NEVER buy thawed seafood out of the fish case and use it for sushi.
>Chances are, it's been sitting on ice or worse for a few hours. Shrimp
>is probably the worst of the lot... it goes bad real quick. Real crab,
>in whatever form is another seafood that looses a lot if thawed too
>far ahead of time. Buy IQF product ( Individually Quick Frozen )Take
>out what you need , and toss the rest back into the freezer.

I would also recommend SushiFoods! (http://www.sushifoods.com). Since
I'm about a 12 hour drive away from any costal areas where I'd eat the
fish and live in a city that's not big enough to have a really great
fish market, I buy all my sashimi-grade fish from SushiFoods. I've
never had a single piece of anything that wasn't spectacular.

You can order anything they sell, and be sure that it will be exactly
what the description says it is, and will taste great (assuming you
like whatever fish you ordered 8-)), and that you won't get sick from
it.

This is a lot more than you can say for a lot general-purpose fish
stores and supermarkets (regardless of their claims of
"sashimi-grade"). You may be able to buy phenominal fish locally, but
the trick is that you need to be able to identify it.

FWIW, when I was first starting to make sushi, I ordered some hamachi
from the best seafood store in town to make sushi for a New Years
party. When I got it home, and thawed it out (it was frozen) it
smelled pretty ripe, so I did use it.

I complained to the store and thaey said it smelled like that "because
it was an oily fish." Since I had nothing to compare it to, I couldn't
make a fuss over it, but never went back. After I ordered a whole
hamachi from sushiFoods, and smelled it, I realised the local place
had not only sold me "used fish", but then lied to me when I called
them on it.

I've been buying from SushiFoods ever since.

If you want to try making rice, I put my (astonishingly detailed)
recipe on my website at http://bupkis.org

Enjoy!

The only bad part about making sushi at home is that pretty soon, your
friends will start inviting themselves over, and you'll be feeding
about 6 people instead of 1. 8-)

Terry

Yes! Most seafood has been frozen at one time or another. Even when
they call it 'fresh never frozen'. It is also important to note that
frozen fish is not bad. It is all about how long its been frozen, how
much time in-between catch and freezing, etc. You should find a fish
purveyor that you trust. It can't hurt to ask the fishmonger "Can I
eat this raw?" or "I want to make some sushi, what do you recommend?"
In fact a fishmonger can be a great source of recipe ideas. Just Ask!

It is common practice at sushi bars to sprinkle a little seasoning
over a salmon fillet and freeze it for a couple days. Along with
changing the texture/flavor, this is supposed to kill parasites that
might be present.
It should be noted that freezing will NOT kill all parasites.

Visit my Website,
http://Chefmatisse.com
http://chefmatisse.com/images/ingredients.gif

ChefMatisse.com > wrote

> It is common practice at sushi bars to sprinkle a little seasoning
> over a salmon fillet and freeze it for a couple days. Along with
> changing the texture/flavor, this is supposed to kill parasites that
> might be present.
> It should be noted that freezing will NOT kill all parasites.

The "freezing" thing comes up a lot in the 'home made sushi'
or 'supermarket fish' threads. The FDA food safety guidelines are
posted -- hmmm, not here, but this is a start:
http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/sea-ill.html

Without the official FDA source, this is from an earlier post to a.f.s.
by David Lutjen (google groups: anisakis FDA)

- begin quote -
According to the FDA:

Parasites (in the larval stage) consumed in uncooked, or undercooked,
unfrozen seafood can present a human health hazard. Among parasites, the
nematodes or roundworms (Anisakis spp., Pseudoterranova spp., Eustrongylides
spp. and Gnathostoma spp.), cestodes or tapeworms (Diphyllobothrium spp.)
and trematodes or flukes (Chlonorchis sinensis, Opisthorchis spp.,
Heterophyes spp., Metagonimus spp., Nanophyetes salminicola and Paragonimus
spp.) are of most concern in seafood. Anisakis is the parasite of concern
in salmon.

Freezing (-4°F (-20°C) or below (internal or external) for 7 days or -31°F
(-35°C) or below (internal) for 15 hrs) of fish intended for raw consumption
also kills parasites. FDA's Food Code recommends these freezing conditions
to retailers who provide fish intended for raw consumption.

Brining and pickling may reduce the parasite hazard in a fish, but they do
not eliminate it, nor do they minimize it to an acceptable level. Nematode
larvae have been shown to survive 28 days in a 80° salimeter brine (21% salt
by weight).
- end quote -

It has been noted that home freezers are not suited to quick (flash)
freezing fish to maintain quality. Some have posted their methods for
home freezing fish for sushi using dry ice followed by freezer storage.

But I've got to ask: how would a trained sushi chef pick up tainted fish
in the first place? I thought they're supposed to know what to look for.
And if someone delivers bad fish, why not refuse it and send it back
for a refund? It's not like a piece of salmon flesh is going to pick up
parasites from the sushi bar itself. It had to be delivered that way.
Take it back!






--
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On 10 Mar 2004 23:33:39 -0800,

>Visit my Website,
>http://Chefmatisse.com
>http://chefmatisse.com/images/ingredients.gif

Well, Chef, your prices are pretty crazy.

$75 plus shipping for the following is excessive.
2 Unagi Fillet (Freshwater Eel)
2.2 Pounds Smoked Salmon Trim
1 Pound Krab (Imitation Krab)
60 pieces Inari (Sweet Tofu Pocket Skins)
2 Pounds Edamame (Soy Beans)

But this "kit for $75 is highway robbery:
10 Sushi Rolling Mats
200 Half sheets Nori (Roasted Seaweed Sheets)
2.2 Pounds of Wasabi Powder (Just add Water)
2 Pound Gari (Pickled Ginger)
80 Tea Bags (Green Tea Genmai-Cha)
400 Soy Sauce Packets
40 Pairs of Chopsticks
1 Bottle Hot Garlic-Chili Sauce




Cape Cod Bob
Visit my web site at http://home.comcast.net/~bobmethelis

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:25:36 GMT,
(Ann I. Sakis) wrote:

<snip>
>
>But I've got to ask: how would a trained sushi chef pick up tainted fish
>in the first place? I thought they're supposed to know what to look for.
>And if someone delivers bad fish, why not refuse it and send it back
>for a refund? It's not like a piece of salmon flesh is going to pick up
>parasites from the sushi bar itself. It had to be delivered that way.
>Take it back!
>
>

As I undeerstand it the problem is that most visual
checking is by "candling" - looking through the
fish next to a light source. This works better for
white fish than for colored fish such as Salmon.
The ocean fish will not have the particularly bad
parsites such as the fish tapeworm. The freezing
is more of an added safety for salmon. This
freshwater parasite can be present in any freshwater
or freshwater-sal****er fish. It's probably why
freshwater eel is always cooked.

For a discussion of the freshwater fish tapeworm
Diphyllobothrium latum and other parasites see
the FDA "Bad Bug Book".

<http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/sea-ill.html>

And yeah, I still enjoy Sushi after reading those
chapters. I just stick with places that I'm
confortable with as far as freshness and
fish handling experience.

Greg Muncill

"Greg Muncill" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 08:25:36 GMT,
> (Ann I. Sakis) wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >
> >But I've got to ask: how would a trained sushi chef pick up tainted fish
> >in the first place? I thought they're supposed to know what to look for.
> >And if someone delivers bad fish, why not refuse it and send it back
> >for a refund? It's not like a piece of salmon flesh is going to pick up
> >parasites from the sushi bar itself. It had to be delivered that way.
> >Take it back!
> >
> >
>
> As I undeerstand it the problem is that most visual
> checking is by "candling" - looking through the
> fish next to a light source. This works better for
> white fish than for colored fish such as Salmon.
> The ocean fish will not have the particularly bad
> parsites such as the fish tapeworm. The freezing
> is more of an added safety for salmon. This
> freshwater parasite can be present in any freshwater
> or freshwater-sal****er fish. It's probably why
> freshwater eel is always cooked.
>

I disagree about the eel Greg. Although that "may" be one reason that
Unagi(eel) is not eaten raw,
I think its more likely that it simply is not good raw. I.E.; gross.
For example, Anago (sea eel) as well as Hamo (Conger eel) is also never
eaten raw
and they are strictly ocean fish.

Although it is a textbook fact that in general Freshwater fish are not eaten
raw because of
the possible parasite problem, in Japan there are dishes which break that
rule.
For exanple, Koi no Arai, is basically Carp Sashimi, but the thin slices are
quickly dipped in
hot water to kill/weaken parasites then quickly cooled in ice water. There
is a form of sashimi
for Ayu a small native trout caught in streams.

Salmon actually falls into this category in that it is not a traditional
standard Neta for sushi.
The parasite risk was known along time ago so it was never used by the
itamaes of the
Edo period. However, the Ainu (aborigional people) of Hokkaido did eat
salmon raw by
freezing it first to "weaken" any possible parasites. Raw salmon was also
consumed after
marination as well.

I often see salmon in the neta counter in Japanese restaurants in the US
with a slight orangy-brown tinge on the edges. This is because the itamae
marinated the salmon. Some freeze, some marinate,
some freeze and marinate. After marination, the outer part which has changed
color is trimmed
off so that it looks "raw" again. Sometimes a bit of that marinated color
remains. Many Itamae do
this even knowing that farmed salmon often doesnt have as high a risk as
wild, but simply out
of habit.

The article says it takes 5 days at 0 - 10F which any home freezer
should be able to do with no problem.

If it can't hit 0F, it's broken.

Terry


On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 14:12:49 GMT, Greg Muncill
> wrote:
>>
>
>If you don't have a commercial freezer it is difficult to
>get to the temperatures required to kill the parasite
>with a home freezer. For recommended freezing times
>check:
>
><http://www.ocean.udel.edu/mas/seafood/raw.html>
>
>Greg Muncill

>Well, Chef, your prices are pretty crazy.

Speaking of crazy, check out that mullet! (I'm not talking about the fish!)

Wonder if he drives a Camaro, too....

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 23:49:37 GMT, Terry Carmen >
wrote:

>The article says it takes 5 days at 0 - 10F which any home freezer
>should be able to do with no problem.
>
>If it can't hit 0F, it's broken.
>
>Terry
>

I did not mean to imply that it was impossible to
do it in a home freezer, Terry. The point is that
you DON'T just do it overnight for making sushi
the next day. I think the most important information
to get from the article is that the parasite is pretty
resistant so yeah - 5 days minimum.

Greg Muncill

I guess the other point might be to check whether
the salmon had been already commercially frozen.
The "flash" freezing that the commercial types do
with the fish is supposed to be much easier on
the texture and flavor of the fish compared to
home freezing. If it's been already frozen then
the parasites are gone. That's when you use
the information from your fish source if you trust
them well enough.

Greg Muncill

Greg Muncill wrote:

> If you don't have a commercial freezer it is difficult to
> get to the temperatures required to kill the parasite
> with a home freezer. For recommended freezing times
> check:
>
> <http://www.ocean.udel.edu/mas/seafood/raw.html>

and Terry Carmen added:

> The article says it takes 5 days at 0 - 10F which any home freezer
> should be able to do with no problem.
>
> If it can't hit 0F, it's broken.

but http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/haccp-2e.html says:

-- quote --
Freezing (-4°F (-20°C) or below (internal or external) for
7 days or -31°F (-35°C) or below (internal) for 15 hrs) of
fish intended for raw consumption also kills parasites. FDA's
Food Code recommends these freezing conditions to retailers
who provide fish intended for raw consumption.
-- unquote --

The FDA recommendations are more stringent than the udel.edu
recommendations. Your mileage may vary. But it has also
been noted (repeatedly) that a home freezer does not "flash
freeze" and the taste, texture and quality of slowly frozen
fish once thawed is inferior to commercial flash frozen
product. Whether you choose 5 days or 7 days, the clock doesn't
start until the fish is fully frozen and at low temperature.

If you argue that home users are not retailers then it can
be noted that almost every case of human parasite infection
from raw fish reported to the Centers for Disease Control
is from home made sushi/ceviche and not restaurant prepared
sushi/ceviche. (It used to be every = 100%; I haven't checked
the CDC web site for updates so I've only said "almost every"
here.)

Roughly speaking, slow freezing causes cells to rupture and
crack. Upon thawing, the physical texture is already degraded
and enzymes and air in contact with other cellular goo start
to further degrade the flesh. Flash freezing at ultra low
temperatures is so rapid that cells are not ruptured and
"freshness" is restored upon thawing.

Some "home freezing" people have posted how they pre-freeze
their fish using dry ice (-109 F; -78 C) to flash freeze and
then store in their home freezer (0 to 10 F) for 7 days or
more and then thaw for use.

Greg Muncill wrote:

> the FDA "Bad Bug Book".
>
> <http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~mow/sea-ill.html>
>
> And yeah, I still enjoy Sushi after reading those
> chapters. I just stick with places that I'm
> confortable with as far as freshness and
> fish handling experience.

I've also read it and still enjoy sushi from reputable
places.






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On Sat, 13 Mar 2004 05:10:11 GMT,
(Ann I. Sakis) wrote:
>
>Some "home freezing" people have posted how they pre-freeze
>their fish using dry ice (-109 F; -78 C) to flash freeze and
>then store in their home freezer (0 to 10 F) for 7 days or
>more and then thaw for use.

I do that, but for a different reason.

Since the compressor in a home freezer is only good for a gew hundred
BTU/Hour, it can take a really long time to freeze 20-30 pounds of
food, which effects the flavor.

When I get the fish in, I vacuum pack it in small pieces, then toss it
in a box full of dry ice. It's solid within maybe 10 minutes, and I
leave it until the dry-ice is mostly gone, then toss it in the
freezer.

Tery