A while ago I received an old tetsubin from a dear friend of mine. She
got that little pot from her mother, who got it from an uncle who
picked it up somewhere in Japan in the late 19th century. There´s
nothing too special about this little pot, no stampings, markings,
inscriptions or anything of that kind, but at least it shows no signs
of rust.
Right now it´s placed on display among my collection of antique
teawares but I´m wondering if anyone on this esteemed group is using
an unglazed tetsubin on a regular basis ???

Karsten [2005 autumnal Castleton in der Tasse]

wrote:
> A while ago I received an old tetsubin from a dear friend of mine. She
> got that little pot from her mother, who got it from an uncle who
> picked it up somewhere in Japan in the late 19th century. There´s
> nothing too special about this little pot, no stampings, markings,
> inscriptions or anything of that kind, but at least it shows no signs
> of rust.
> Right now it´s placed on display among my collection of antique
> teawares but I´m wondering if anyone on this esteemed group is using
> an unglazed tetsubin on a regular basis ???
>
> Karsten [2005 autumnal Castleton in der Tasse]

While I enjoy Japanese green teas and senchas, I do not use any of my
tetsubin for brewing. All of mine are unglazed (glazed tend to crack
internally no matter how much care is taken). I have a personal issue
with brewing or having metal even touch anything during my brewing, but
even without that I most likely wouldn't use it.

The cast iron makes exact temperatures tough, the dark color loses the
beautiful color of the tea until it is poured, they build up deposits
(which many Japanese see as a good thing), they rust, and generally
feel unrefined and to me take away from some of the majesty. This is
only my opinion and many still believe water from a tetsubin is the
best for green tea.

Not sure how much history you know, or care about, but the plain
tetsubin are usually older before they became more ornamental and
status symbols later on when they came into fashion. They were hung
over a fire or heat source with water in them to add some heat and
humidity in winter. This fits more with the humble tetsubin than trying
to turn it into some delicate and treasured tea brewing vessel. They
are rough and utilitarian, and that is how I like to keep it. It sounds
like you have quite a nice piece there, you may want to look deeper
into it to see where it was made: Iwate or Yamagata.

I'd enjoy it just as it is.

- Dominic
Drinking: Spiderleg Sencha

Dominic T. wrote:
> ... All of mine are unglazed (glazed tend to crack internally no
> matter how much care is taken). ... they build up deposits (which
> many Japanese see as a good thing), they rust, ...

I wouldn't use a glazed one; when the glaze chips off, it might wind up
in my gullet. I do have a big one that sits on the wood stove in winter;
I rarely pour from it, but it's nice to know that hot water's always to
hand.

On the latter point: I wonder if, with regular brewing use, a coherent
organic film might form and passivate the iron surface? This certainly
happens with other cast-iron cookware, and is why a seasoned pot or pan
shouldn't be scrubbed down to clean metal. It would be more likely if
the pot used for brewing is also used for boiling, hence exposed to
direct heat that would enhance polymerization and bonding of the
carbonaceous film to the cast iron.

-DM

DogMa wrote:
> Dominic T. wrote:
> > ... All of mine are unglazed (glazed tend to crack internally no
> > matter how much care is taken). ... they build up deposits (which
> > many Japanese see as a good thing), they rust, ...
> On the latter point: I wonder if, with regular brewing use, a coherent
> organic film might form and passivate the iron surface? This certainly
> happens with other cast-iron cookware, and is why a seasoned pot or pan
> shouldn't be scrubbed down to clean metal. It would be more likely if
> the pot used for brewing is also used for boiling, hence exposed to
> direct heat that would enhance polymerization and bonding of the
> carbonaceous film to the cast iron.
>
> -DM

Exactly, that is why they highly prize the mineral/misc. deposits that
build up. They believe that the minerals are good for you and that the
buildup breaks down a bit and adds the minerals to the brew... me, I
don't quite see it in the same positive light. Although just as you
said with other cast iron cookware once "seasoned" it does most likely
seal up for the most part. I've seen some rough looking tetsubin, and I
just can't put that together in my mind or stomach with a beautiful and
delicate fresh green no matter how I try. Decoration and above fires
fit the bill for me.

- Dominic

Dog Ma wrote:
> It would be more likely if
> the pot used for brewing is also used for boiling, hence exposed to
> direct heat that would enhance polymerization and bonding of the
> carbonaceous film to the cast iron.

I thought of that myself lately, something like keeping some strong
brew in the tetsubin, day after day, all day long, allowing the water
to evaporate over time.
It also depends on the actual water quality, content and composition of
minerals yadda yadda. Right now I´m still on the border of
Ostfriesland/Germania, with pretty soft (charcoal filtered tap-) water
(great for Assam based Ostfriesen Blends, baaaaad for DJs) and my
teawares stay relatively clean, whereas for example the tapwater in
Darjeeling is fairly rich in minerals and I see stains of any kind
develop quite rapidly, while basically brewing the same amount of the
same teas.

Dog Ma, it´s been a while ago for me but adressing polymerisation,
maybe you or someone else knows if the presence of iron ions helps in
forming insoluble complexes with the goodies (polyphenols) present in
tea ?

That brings up another question to the group:
what do your Yixing pots, especially yer older ones look like on the
inside (Oolongs/Pu-Erhs/...) ?

Karsten [time for the sack over here]





DogMa wrote:
> Dominic T. wrote:
> > ... All of mine are unglazed (glazed tend to crack internally no
> > matter how much care is taken). ... they build up deposits (which
> > many Japanese see as a good thing), they rust, ...
>
> I wouldn't use a glazed one; when the glaze chips off, it might wind up
> in my gullet. I do have a big one that sits on the wood stove in winter;
> I rarely pour from it, but it's nice to know that hot water's always to
> hand.
>
> On the latter point: I wonder if, with regular brewing use, a coherent
> organic film might form and passivate the iron surface? This certainly
> happens with other cast-iron cookware, and is why a seasoned pot or pan
> shouldn't be scrubbed down to clean metal. It would be more likely if
> the pot used for brewing is also used for boiling, hence exposed to
> direct heat that would enhance polymerization and bonding of the
> carbonaceous film to the cast iron.
>
> -DM

wrote:
> ... adressing polymerisation,
> maybe you or someone else knows if the presence of iron ions helps in
> forming insoluble complexes with the goodies (polyphenols) present in
> tea ?

Don't know by reading or experiment, but it would almost have to: both
as a "core" for multidentate binding by several polyphenols or other
ligands, and as a redox catalyst to enhance the further polymerization
and cross-linking of the goo.

-DM

DogMa > writes:

> wrote:
> > ... adressing polymerisation,
> > maybe you or someone else knows if the presence of iron ions helps in
> > forming insoluble complexes with the goodies (polyphenols) present in
> > tea ?
>
> Don't know by reading or experiment, but it would almost have to: both
> as a "core" for multidentate binding by several polyphenols or other
> ligands, and as a redox catalyst to enhance the further polymerization
> and cross-linking of the goo.

Goo? That sounds like the scum I remember in the tea I brewed with
the iron-rich on the southern fringes of Calcutta. It didn't just
look bad, it *tasted* bad.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

In the traditional Japanese tea ceremony an iron
kettle is deployed over a charcoal fire. What is the
Japanese word for this kettle? And what exactly is
the English translation for the Japanese word,
tetsubin? Water heating kettle came first, glaze
lined tea brewing iron pot came second. No
number of detailed facts are going to change my
mind. I would never allow myself to be swayed
by the facts.
Michael

Michael Plant wrote:
> In the traditional Japanese tea ceremony an iron
> kettle is deployed over a charcoal fire. What is the
> Japanese word for this kettle? And what exactly is
> the English translation for the Japanese word,
> tetsubin? Water heating kettle came first, glaze
> lined tea brewing iron pot came second. No
> number of detailed facts are going to change my
> mind. I would never allow myself to be swayed
> by the facts.
> Michael

Note: Some modern tetsubin are made of alloys which claim to not rust,
I forgot to mention that before.

kama - kettle

shinnari kama - "true shape" based on the pot belly of the Tanuki (a
raccoon-dog) and the original kama, tea kettle, is seen to have this
same shape.

Tetsubin/kama can be made for use on one or both types of heat sources,
generally ro can be used for both heat sources while many furo are
furo-only.

furo - portable hearth/heat source (summer)

ro - hearth (winter)

kama and tetsubin are not interchangable to me personally, but are to
just about everyone else. I call the decorative non-used cast iron tea
kettles tetsubin, while I refer to the real deal old kettles and those
used in tea ceremony kama.

- Dominic

Michael Plant wrote:
> In the traditional Japanese tea ceremony an iron
> kettle is deployed over a charcoal fire. What is the
> Japanese word for this kettle?

"The Japanese Tea Ceremony" is, in fact, a collection of many different
versions of ritual. Most of the time, the water is heated in an iron
kettle over a fire. The lid is removed, and a bamboo dipper is used to
remove the hot water. This is called a kama.

Some versions of powdered tea ritual call for the use of an iron kettle
with a spout and a handle, thus eliminating the need for the dipper.
The kettle can be heated over a charcoal fire or an electric heater.
This is called a tetsubin, literally iron jug/bottle.

There is a book, in English, called _Tetsubin: A Japanese Waterkettle_
by P.L.W. Arts, Groningen [The Netherlands]: Geldermalsen Publications,
1987. This is a detailed academic work. Maybe you can find this by
inter-library loan. Paragon Book Gallery in Chicago might also have
occasional copies for sale.

> A while ago I received an old tetsubin from a dear friend of mine. She
> got that little pot from her mother, who got it from an uncle who
> picked it up somewhere in Japan in the late 19th century. There´s
> nothing too special about this little pot, no stampings, markings,
> inscriptions or anything of that kind, but at least it shows no signs
> of rust. Right now it´s placed on display among my collection of antique
> teawares but I´m wondering if anyone on this esteemed group is using
> an unglazed tetsubin on a regular basis ???
> Karsten [2005 autumnal Castleton in der Tasse]

A Japanese iron kettle is meant to boil water, is it not?
The glazed interior, brew-tea-in-it sort is a rather new
development. One or two of our local stores carry
unglazed Japanese iron kettles, the assumption being
that they are used to boil water, not to brew. But then,
I could be wrong and often am....
Michael [Heavy Roasted Shui Xian Yummy Yum]

Michael Plant wrote:
> A Japanese iron kettle is meant to boil water, is it not?
> The glazed interior, brew-tea-in-it sort is a rather new
> development. One or two of our local stores carry
> unglazed Japanese iron kettles, the assumption being
> that they are used to boil water, not to brew. But then,
> I could be wrong and often am....
> Michael [Heavy Roasted Shui Xian Yummy Yum]

Surprisingly no. They are in fact used to brew in. Many (unglazed even)
testsubin come with a metal strainer for tea. Tetsubin should not be
used on a stovetop really though. You have to remove the tea quickly
once finished and always rinse it out well and dry it completely so it
does not rust. They are a pain, and do not offer any benefits and if
anything add to the stress of tea time for me.

However, they are used for water only mainly in modern Japanese tea
ceremony so that may be where you were coming from. But originally and
still they were used for both purposes. Like I said almost more often
they were used secondarily for tea because the water was already
boiling for heat/humidity so either some leaves were thrown into the
pot or the water was used for making tea. I know a few Japanese friends
whose family members still use unglazed tetsubin with the strainers for
their daily tea, and many vendors quite clearly will tell you the
proper way to use your tetsubin is for brewing tea not for boiling
water on the stovetop.

Hell, I know one old Chinese man who boils water in his yixing on a gas
stove directly and then adds in his tea... who am I to argue? The pot
looks really cool from the fire/tea on the outside too, so nothing is
stopping you from using a tetsubin on the stove... and it is much more
sturdy than Yixing so go for it if you want. I'm not aware of any
secret tetsubin police

- Dominic

Dominic T. wrote:
> However, they are used for water only mainly in modern Japanese tea
> ceremony so that may be where you were coming from. But originally and
> still they were used for both purposes. Like I said almost more often
> they were used secondarily for tea because the water was already
> boiling for heat/humidity so either some leaves were thrown into the
> pot or the water was used for making tea. I know a few Japanese friends
> whose family members still use unglazed tetsubin with the strainers for
> their daily tea, and many vendors quite clearly will tell you the
> proper way to use your tetsubin is for brewing tea not for boiling
> water on the stovetop.

> Hell, I know one old Chinese man who boils water in his yixing on a gas
> stove directly and then adds in his tea... who am I to argue? The pot
> looks really cool from the fire/tea on the outside too, so nothing is
> stopping you from using a tetsubin on the stove... and it is much more
> sturdy than Yixing so go for it if you want. I'm not aware of any
> secret tetsubin police
>
> - Dominic

To understand Japanese tetsubin's proper/traditional use, one has to
take a look at the use of such iron pots in ancient China (from which
the Japanese borrowed). The answer can then be divided in 2:
- before and during Tang dynasty, tea was boiled together with the
water,
- after Tang, during the Sung, Yuan... dynasties, iron pots were only
used to boil water.

Since the main Japanese tea ceremony is using matcha (directly inspired
from the Sung dynasty), we can conclude that the traditional use for a
Japanese tetsubin is to boil water (not to make tea in it).

For me, I find my tetsubin very convenient and stress free, because
once the water has boiled it stays at a very high temperature and I can
brew my tea several times without thinking about water temperature
anymore. (I wrote an article about it in my blog this week, by the
way).

It's interesting that Dominic mentions the Yixing teapot used as a
kettle. I hope it doesn't sound like I want to contradict him (I
respect his tea passion very much), but it actually makes perfect
sense. Teapots are the 'descendants' (a better word may be evolution)
of ewers that were used to boil water in earlier dynasties.

Stéphane

Tea Masters Blog wrote:
> Since the main Japanese tea ceremony is using matcha (directly inspired
> from the Sung dynasty), we can conclude that the traditional use for a
> Japanese tetsubin is to boil water (not to make tea in it).

Yes, if we are speaking solely about Japanese tea ceremony then this is
correct. However, not many modern folks do in Japan or abroad but many
still use the tetsubin in their homes and in almost every case I see
them actually brewing tea in them not just heating water. These are the
new tetsubin that are made of an alloy not supposed to rust and come
with the strainer built in that you can buy in home stores and kitchen
shops.

This excerpt is taken directly from the Joyce Chen line of Tetsubin
sold everywhe

"While this traditional Asian teapot cries out for green tea, it's
such a joy to use that it would be a shame not to put it to work every
day. The well designed lid won't fall off even when you're pouring
out the very last drops of tea. It comes with a stainless steel infuser
so you can remove the leaves after steeping--especially important when
you're preparing delicate green teas."

> For me, I find my tetsubin very convenient and stress free, because
> once the water has boiled it stays at a very high temperature and I can
> brew my tea several times without thinking about water temperature
> anymore. (I wrote an article about it in my blog this week, by the
> way).

I guess it depends on what kind of tea you drink and how you brew it, I
still find completely drying the teapot inside each time to be a bit of
a drag when so many other alternatives are out there that also retain
heat well. I also have a personal dislike of metal in my tea brewing
process, so I'm admittedly biased.

> It's interesting that Dominic mentions the Yixing teapot used as a
> kettle. I hope it doesn't sound like I want to contradict him (I
> respect his tea passion very much), but it actually makes perfect
> sense. Teapots are the 'descendants' (a better word may be evolution)
> of ewers that were used to boil water in earlier dynasties.

No contradiction at all! I think it's cool, and it is actually how they
were used way back in the day over open fires. The patina it has is
really amazing. I just cringe at this semi-delicate Yixing that is at
least 60 years old (and nicer than even my best yixing that I care for
with untold delicacy) being wailed on by high gas flames on a stove
burner... it just *seems* wrong, not that it is.

- Dominic
Drinking: no tea yet... need to stop typing and go make some!

Dominic T. wrote:
> Yes, if we are speaking solely about Japanese tea ceremony then this is
> correct. However, not many modern folks do in Japan or abroad but many
> still use the tetsubin in their homes and in almost every case I see
> them actually brewing tea in them not just heating water. These are the
> new tetsubin that are made of an alloy not supposed to rust and come
> with the strainer built in that you can buy in home stores and kitchen
> shops(...)
> I also have a personal dislike of metal in my tea brewing
> process, so I'm admittedly biased.

You aren't biased! Tea and iron (or steel) just don't mix well. (So, I
don't use a filter.) I absolutely agree with you on this point and
that's why I think we should give answers that are consistent with how
tea 'ought' to be brewed according to tradition, rather than just
observations of how modern people brew tea nowadays. However, high
value metals like gold or silver are actually excellent to make tea in
them (Lu Yu already said so long time ago). They are highly heat
conductive and brew tea at higher temperatures than clay.

> I guess it depends on what kind of tea you drink and how you brew it, I
> still find completely drying the teapot inside each time to be a bit of
> a drag when so many other alternatives are out there that also retain
> heat well.

What are you using then?

Stéphane

Shui Xian! My large cache that I bought in China 2 years ago is all gone and
I cannot find acceptable price for good stuff here... Were you lucky enough
to fins a good vendor?
Is it Yi Wu Shui Xian? ... Is it? Is It? Is it?

Sasha.

"Michael Plant" > wrote in message
...
>> A while ago I received an old tetsubin from a dear friend of mine. She
>> got that little pot from her mother, who got it from an uncle who
>> picked it up somewhere in Japan in the late 19th century. There´s
>> nothing too special about this little pot, no stampings, markings,
>> inscriptions or anything of that kind, but at least it shows no signs
>> of rust. Right now it´s placed on display among my collection of antique
>> teawares but I´m wondering if anyone on this esteemed group is using
>> an unglazed tetsubin on a regular basis ???
>> Karsten [2005 autumnal Castleton in der Tasse]
>
> A Japanese iron kettle is meant to boil water, is it not?
> The glazed interior, brew-tea-in-it sort is a rather new
> development. One or two of our local stores carry
> unglazed Japanese iron kettles, the assumption being
> that they are used to boil water, not to brew. But then,
> I could be wrong and often am....
> Michael [Heavy Roasted Shui Xian Yummy Yum]
>

In Chinatown you can find boxes of Xiamen Wuyi Rock Tea Lao Tsung Shui
Hsien $4/30g. That is the high grade versus their Xiamen Sea Dyke Shu
Xian $4/125g which is a little less rocky. I've never seen an YiWu
narcissus.

Jim

PS I just saw that Snapple EGCG green tea commercial again. In the
background are rock tea trees in the crevices of the cliffs. You'd
need a monkey to get at those or an inverted cherry picker. I only buy
Chinese teas from sites that can send me the characters. The last
vendor sent them in an Excel spreadsheet which I don't have installed.
I told him how to dump his spreadsheet in an HTM file and send me that
which worked. I'm going to try their version of a wild bitter tea
called TianShan LuShui. This is my first foray into a shopping cart
versus Ebay auctions but they do take PayPal.

Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
> Shui Xian! My large cache that I bought in China 2 years ago is all gone and
> I cannot find acceptable price for good stuff here... Were you lucky enough
> to fins a good vendor?
> Is it Yi Wu Shui Xian? ... Is it? Is It? Is it?
>
> Sasha.
>
> "Michael Plant" > wrote in message
> ...
....fire in the hole...
> > Michael [Heavy Roasted Shui Xian Yummy Yum]

On 25 Sep 2006 06:00:36 -0700, Space Cowboy wrote:

> The last vendor sent them in an Excel spreadsheet which I don't have
> installed.

If you don't want to give business to Microsoft (which I can understand),
consider installing OpenOffice 2.0. This will give you Calc, their Excel
replacement.

Just to test, I threw some random Cyrillic characters into an Excel
spreadsheet (I don't have Chinese installed), and then opened the file in
Calc. It showed exactly what it was supposed to show.

And, since it's free, you don't have to regret spending a lot of money on a
piece of software you rarely use.

Now, if it's a drive-space issue, i.e. you're running out of it, this won't
help.
--
Derek

"Any event, once it has occurred, can be made to appear inevitable by a
competent historian." -- Lee Simonson

"Derek" > wrote...
> If you don't want to give business to Microsoft (which I can understand),
> consider installing OpenOffice 2.0. This will give you Calc, their Excel
> replacement.
....

Here's the free OpenOffice website, for anyone who is interested:
http://www.openoffice.org/index.html

Me culpa - not Yi Wu, but Wu Yi (Archer barbarian). I think my spell
checker decided to swap the syllables.
Sorry.

Sasha.


"Space Cowboy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> In Chinatown you can find boxes of Xiamen Wuyi Rock Tea Lao Tsung Shui
> Hsien $4/30g. That is the high grade versus their Xiamen Sea Dyke Shu
> Xian $4/125g which is a little less rocky. I've never seen an YiWu
> narcissus.
>
> Jim
>
> PS I just saw that Snapple EGCG green tea commercial again. In the
> background are rock tea trees in the crevices of the cliffs. You'd
> need a monkey to get at those or an inverted cherry picker. I only buy
> Chinese teas from sites that can send me the characters. The last
> vendor sent them in an Excel spreadsheet which I don't have installed.
> I told him how to dump his spreadsheet in an HTM file and send me that
> which worked. I'm going to try their version of a wild bitter tea
> called TianShan LuShui. This is my first foray into a shopping cart
> versus Ebay auctions but they do take PayPal.
>
> Alex Chaihorsky wrote:
>> Shui Xian! My large cache that I bought in China 2 years ago is all gone
>> and
>> I cannot find acceptable price for good stuff here... Were you lucky
>> enough
>> to fins a good vendor?
>> Is it Yi Wu Shui Xian? ... Is it? Is It? Is it?
>>
>> Sasha.
>>
>> "Michael Plant" > wrote in message
>> ...
> ...fire in the hole...
>> > Michael [Heavy Roasted Shui Xian Yummy Yum]
>

Yeah, no surprises here. However pretty it looks, it seems soo darn
impractical, weighs half a ton and screams to be used on an open fire
all day long, something I don´t have or in the case of rust want
around here or god forbid - in my brew. So I guess I keep it among my
antique cups and pots, until, maybe that one day when I move into my
cabin somewhere above the arctic circle and once in a blue moon feel
like having some Gyokuro in style.
Thanks for your input and again "hail the gaiwan" !

Karsten