Hello,

I have a tea ware question. I was looking at these 'beautiful
Tenmoku's on the teaspring.com website (found he
http://www.teaspring.com/teaware.asp?cid=10 ) and they are described
as:

"These tea bowls were created in China during the Tang Dynasty and
gained popularity in the Song Dynasty (960-1279). In China, they are
known as "Jian Zhan" but they are more widely known as Tenmoku
(Japanese) nowadays. Tenmoku has been part of the Japanese tea ceremony
since the 13th century. They are also suitable for brewing Chinese
Green, White, Yellow and Black teas."

What it doesn't say, however, is if one uses these to drink tea out of.
Does anyone have any of these? Do you use them as a cup -- is it
awkward to drink from? Or does one just use them as a bowl in which to
steep tea in?

"kid_kei" > writes:

> Hello,
>
> I have a tea ware question. I was looking at these 'beautiful
> Tenmoku's on the teaspring.com website (found he
> http://www.teaspring.com/teaware.asp?cid=10 ) and they are described
> as:
>
> "These tea bowls were created in China during the Tang Dynasty and
> gained popularity in the Song Dynasty (960-1279). In China, they are
> known as "Jian Zhan" but they are more widely known as Tenmoku
> (Japanese) nowadays. Tenmoku has been part of the Japanese tea ceremony
> since the 13th century. They are also suitable for brewing Chinese
> Green, White, Yellow and Black teas."
>
> What it doesn't say, however, is if one uses these to drink tea out of.
> Does anyone have any of these? Do you use them as a cup -- is it
> awkward to drink from? Or does one just use them as a bowl in which to
> steep tea in?

You sound like the kind of person who - in your non-tea-ceremony
moments - would be happier brewing tea in a gaiwan and decanting it
into your favorite cup to drink.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
recent addition (thanks, MarshalN!): Wa Bang

> You sound like the kind of person who - in your non-tea-ceremony
> moments - would be happier brewing tea in a gaiwan and decanting it
> into your favorite cup to drink.

I do have favorite cups.... This is why I am wondering if these could
be my new "favorite cups."

kid_kei wrote:
> > You sound like the kind of person who - in your non-tea-ceremony
> > moments - would be happier brewing tea in a gaiwan and decanting it
> > into your favorite cup to drink.
>
> I do have favorite cups.... This is why I am wondering if these could
> be my new "favorite cups."

If these are the same cups as the ones Japanese use in tea ceremony,
then I have to say in general they are very awkwardly large for regular
drinking. They're about the size of rice bowls, sometimes larger.

Oddly enough, teaspring is not accessible from China, so I can't tell
you anything about them without seeing pictures of the specific ones in
question.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

The ones Teaspring carries do come in different sizes...from 50ml to
300ml. I would think they'd make nice cups to drink from. Awkard? I
don't see why they should be...except maybe 300ml is a bit too big. At
least for me it's too big because I brew with small(er) Yixings and
gaiwans.

One point to note, though -- and this is also very personal -- those
cups are dark or bold-colored inside and out. I personally like to
enjoy the true colors of my teas, so I prefer white or very lightly
tinted on the inside. But that's just me...

My 2 cents.

Phyll


MarshalN wrote:
> kid_kei wrote:
> > > You sound like the kind of person who - in your non-tea-ceremony
> > > moments - would be happier brewing tea in a gaiwan and decanting it
> > > into your favorite cup to drink.
> >
> > I do have favorite cups.... This is why I am wondering if these could
> > be my new "favorite cups."
>
> If these are the same cups as the ones Japanese use in tea ceremony,
> then I have to say in general they are very awkwardly large for regular
> drinking. They're about the size of rice bowls, sometimes larger.
>
> Oddly enough, teaspring is not accessible from China, so I can't tell
> you anything about them without seeing pictures of the specific ones in
> question.
>
> MarshalN
> http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

Lewis 11/5/06

> "kid_kei" > writes:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I have a tea ware question. I was looking at these 'beautiful
>> Tenmoku's on the teaspring.com website (found he
>> http://www.teaspring.com/teaware.asp?cid=10 ) and they are described
>> as:
>>
>> "These tea bowls were created in China during the Tang Dynasty and
>> gained popularity in the Song Dynasty (960-1279). In China, they are
>> known as "Jian Zhan" but they are more widely known as Tenmoku
>> (Japanese) nowadays. Tenmoku has been part of the Japanese tea ceremony
>> since the 13th century. They are also suitable for brewing Chinese
>> Green, White, Yellow and Black teas."
>>
>> What it doesn't say, however, is if one uses these to drink tea out of.
>> Does anyone have any of these? Do you use them as a cup -- is it
>> awkward to drink from? Or does one just use them as a bowl in which to
>> steep tea in?
>
> You sound like the kind of person who - in your non-tea-ceremony
> moments - would be happier brewing tea in a gaiwan and decanting it
> into your favorite cup to drink.
>
> /Lew

The bowls on the TeaSpring page you linked above appear in the style of
Song, mostly Southern (later) Song.Dynasty. At that time, you were far more
apt to encounter powdered tea than leaf, so the bowls made sense. My answer
to your question is to work it out for yourself, because you are not
hampered by pedantic rules. First, you could brew a tea using less leaf, and
wait until the leaves settled before drinking. You could also mix matcha
into your bowl. The fun will be experimenting to see which leaf works best.
Some leaf tends to float, some to settle. You'll find your way. Please
report your findings.

BTW, those bowls do look very inviting. I was tempted by purchase an
authentic Northern Song bowl recently, but when would I use it? Sometimes
"fake" has its place. I'm a great fan of fake. Just don't pawn it off as
"real."

"Temoku" BTW is the term for the thick deep black glaze common on wares from
Japan these days. It's relatively easy to handle, and so leads to much
ugliness in the name of art. A thinner application leads to the rich brown
color you often see edging these bowls at their rims, etc. The oil spot and
hare's fur (Song) effects are not so easily achieved.

Michael

11/5/06


>
>> You sound like the kind of person who - in your non-tea-ceremony
>> moments - would be happier brewing tea in a gaiwan and decanting it
>> into your favorite cup to drink.
>
> I do have favorite cups.... This is why I am wondering if these could
> be my new "favorite cups."

Why not?
M

11/6/06


>
> kid_kei wrote:
>>> You sound like the kind of person who - in your non-tea-ceremony
>>> moments - would be happier brewing tea in a gaiwan and decanting it
>>> into your favorite cup to drink.
>>
>> I do have favorite cups.... This is why I am wondering if these could
>> be my new "favorite cups."
>
> If these are the same cups as the ones Japanese use in tea ceremony,
> then I have to say in general they are very awkwardly large for regular
> drinking. They're about the size of rice bowls, sometimes larger.
>
> Oddly enough, teaspring is not accessible from China, so I can't tell
> you anything about them without seeing pictures of the specific ones in
> question.
>
> MarshalN
> http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

They are the typical hare's fur and oil spot
bowls of Southern Song. Size is probably
in line with those, somewhat smaller than
Japanese tea bowls.

Is there anybody here who has seen and
handled the Tea Bowl known as Mt. Fuji?

Michael

kid_kei wrote:

> I have a tea ware question. I was looking at these 'beautiful
> Tenmoku's on the teaspring.com website (found he
> http://www.teaspring.com/teaware.asp?cid=10 ) and they are described
> as:

Of the nine tea bowls shown, 6 hold 300 ml, 2 hold 100 ml, and one
holds 50 ml. The 300 ml bowls are the right size for Japanese tea
ceremony. Temmoku tea bowls are conically shaped, and meant for
serving in a wooden or lacquered stand. This was a way of showing
honor to a special guest. Nowadays, in Japan, temmoku bowls with the
stands are usually used for preparing tea to be offered to Buddhas at
temples or Shinto deities at shrines.

I should note that these 6 tea bowls on this page are all the right
size and shape for a "temmoku." They all also have glazes that are
typical of "temmoku" tea bowls. The word "temmoku," in Japan, however,
is *also* used to talk about these kinds of glazes, even if the glaze
is used on some other utensil. I expect most potters in Japan would
recognize all of these glazes as being "temmoku," but for the normal
Japanese person, the word usually conjures up brown and black images,
much like the (smallest) bowl in the upper right corner of the
Teaspring page, or the 100 ml "Temmoku II" in the middle of the top
row.

> What it doesn't say, however, is if one uses these to drink tea out of.
> Does anyone have any of these? Do you use them as a cup -- is it
> awkward to drink from? Or does one just use them as a bowl in which to
> steep tea in?

In the Japanese tea ceremony, powdered green tea (matcha) is put into a
bowl, a small amount of hot water is added, and they are whipped
together with a bamboo whisk. The tea will be served in the bowl. The
bowl will only have about three tablespoons of tea in it, but the
relatively large size of the bowl allows the host to whisk the tea
without slopping.

When drinking Japanese tea ceremony tea, you hold the bowl with two
hands. You don't drink this kind of tea while trying to type a letter
or answer the door. Even when drinking matcha in extremely casual
settings, you stop whatever else you are doing, and focus-- for the
15-20 seconds it takes-- on drinking the tea.

Personally, I'd rather go to a tea-utensil shop in Japan and *look* at
the individual tea bowls rather than buy them online. On the other
hand, coming from a Japanese context, these bowls all look "right," and
the prices seem perfectly reasonable. On the third hand, if you want
just one bowl for preparing matcha, I wouldn't start with these: their
conical shape isn't the easiest place to learn to whisk tea. I'd look
for bowls with broader bases that wouldn't tip over as easily.

james-henry holland
japanese language and culture
hobart and william smith colleges
geneva, new york 14456

Michael Plant wrote:

> They are the typical hare's fur and oil spot
> bowls of Southern Song. Size is probably
> in line with those, somewhat smaller than
> Japanese tea bowls.

The temmoku tea bowls used in Japanese tea ceremony are generally
smaller than other bowls used in tea ceremony: The conical shape
reduces the capacity of the bowl.
>
> Is there anybody here who has seen and
> handled the Tea Bowl known as Mt. Fuji?

There is a very famous tea bowl called "Fujisan" (Mt. Fuji) by Hon'ami
Koetsu. It is a "national treasure," and pictures show up in a fair
number of books. All that I can find is that it is in a "private
collection." This is a raku tea bowl, a different style from temmoku
bowls.

> I have a tea ware question. I was looking at these 'beautiful
> Tenmoku's on the teaspring.com website (found he
> http://www.teaspring.com/teaware.asp?cid=10 ) and they are described
> as:

Whoops-- one more comment to minimize confusion.

The Japanese word for this kind of tea bowl/this glaze can be romanized
as either teNmoku or as teMmoku. There is no English-like /n/ in the
correct pronunciation. Rather there is an /m/ that you start and hold
for an extra beat. Anyway, both romanizations occur frequently, and
both refer to the same *pronunciation*.

Thanks for much for your 2 cents.

To save me some time, what are the Japanese characters for:
fujisan, temmoku, raku

TIA,
Jim

Thitherflit wrote:
> Michael Plant wrote:
>
> > They are the typical hare's fur and oil spot
> > bowls of Southern Song. Size is probably
> > in line with those, somewhat smaller than
> > Japanese tea bowls.
>
> The temmoku tea bowls used in Japanese tea ceremony are generally
> smaller than other bowls used in tea ceremony: The conical shape
> reduces the capacity of the bowl.
> >
> > Is there anybody here who has seen and
> > handled the Tea Bowl known as Mt. Fuji?
>
> There is a very famous tea bowl called "Fujisan" (Mt. Fuji) by Hon'ami
> Koetsu. It is a "national treasure," and pictures show up in a fair
> number of books. All that I can find is that it is in a "private
> collection." This is a raku tea bowl, a different style from temmoku
> bowls.

Thanks for much. I think I have decided that if I do purchase a bowl
it will be simply to decorate the house and not to drink tea from. You
make a good point about being able to see the color of the tea, and I
tend to feel the same way. Also, 100 ml seems too small and 300 ml
seems just a bit too big.

Thanks again for your interesting insight,

Chris.

Space Cowboy wrote:
> To save me some time, what are the Japanese characters for:
> fujisan, temmoku, raku
>
> TIA,
> Jim

富士山�天目�楽, in that order.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

Thank you SO much for taking the time to form such a erudite and
detailed response. I had recently been reading up on Matcha, but have
yet to have been able to try it. I think that for the strict purpose
of day-to-day drinking a variety of Chinese Teas I will delay the
purchase of these bowls, and when I am able to get my hands on same
Matcha to try invest in something with a broader base as you suggest.

Thanks again,

Chris.

Thitherflit wrote:
> kid_kei wrote:
>
> > I have a tea ware question. I was looking at these 'beautiful
> > Tenmoku's on the teaspring.com website (found he
> > http://www.teaspring.com/teaware.asp?cid=10 ) and they are described
> > as:
>
> Of the nine tea bowls shown, 6 hold 300 ml, 2 hold 100 ml, and one
> holds 50 ml. The 300 ml bowls are the right size for Japanese tea
> ceremony. Temmoku tea bowls are conically shaped, and meant for
> serving in a wooden or lacquered stand. This was a way of showing
> honor to a special guest. Nowadays, in Japan, temmoku bowls with the
> stands are usually used for preparing tea to be offered to Buddhas at
> temples or Shinto deities at shrines.
>
> I should note that these 6 tea bowls on this page are all the right
> size and shape for a "temmoku." They all also have glazes that are
> typical of "temmoku" tea bowls. The word "temmoku," in Japan, however,
> is *also* used to talk about these kinds of glazes, even if the glaze
> is used on some other utensil. I expect most potters in Japan would
> recognize all of these glazes as being "temmoku," but for the normal
> Japanese person, the word usually conjures up brown and black images,
> much like the (smallest) bowl in the upper right corner of the
> Teaspring page, or the 100 ml "Temmoku II" in the middle of the top
> row.
>
> > What it doesn't say, however, is if one uses these to drink tea out of.
> > Does anyone have any of these? Do you use them as a cup -- is it
> > awkward to drink from? Or does one just use them as a bowl in which to
> > steep tea in?
>
> In the Japanese tea ceremony, powdered green tea (matcha) is put into a
> bowl, a small amount of hot water is added, and they are whipped
> together with a bamboo whisk. The tea will be served in the bowl. The
> bowl will only have about three tablespoons of tea in it, but the
> relatively large size of the bowl allows the host to whisk the tea
> without slopping.
>
> When drinking Japanese tea ceremony tea, you hold the bowl with two
> hands. You don't drink this kind of tea while trying to type a letter
> or answer the door. Even when drinking matcha in extremely casual
> settings, you stop whatever else you are doing, and focus-- for the
> 15-20 seconds it takes-- on drinking the tea.
>
> Personally, I'd rather go to a tea-utensil shop in Japan and *look* at
> the individual tea bowls rather than buy them online. On the other
> hand, coming from a Japanese context, these bowls all look "right," and
> the prices seem perfectly reasonable. On the third hand, if you want
> just one bowl for preparing matcha, I wouldn't start with these: their
> conical shape isn't the easiest place to learn to whisk tea. I'd look
> for bowls with broader bases that wouldn't tip over as easily.
>
> james-henry holland
> japanese language and culture
> hobart and william smith colleges
> geneva, new york 14456

11/6/06


>
> Michael Plant wrote:
>
>> They are the typical hare's fur and oil spot
>> bowls of Southern Song. Size is probably
>> in line with those, somewhat smaller than
>> Japanese tea bowls.
>
> The temmoku tea bowls used in Japanese tea ceremony are generally
> smaller than other bowls used in tea ceremony: The conical shape
> reduces the capacity of the bowl.
>>
>> Is there anybody here who has seen and
>> handled the Tea Bowl known as Mt. Fuji?
>
> There is a very famous tea bowl called "Fujisan" (Mt. Fuji) by Hon'ami
> Koetsu. It is a "national treasure," and pictures show up in a fair
> number of books. All that I can find is that it is in a "private
> collection." This is a raku tea bowl, a different style from temmoku
> bowls.

Yes, that's the one. The Koetsu. I take it you have never touched it.
Michael

Thitherflit wrote:
> kid_kei wrote:
>
> > I have a tea ware question. I was looking at these 'beautiful
> > Tenmoku's on the teaspring.com website (found he
> > http://www.teaspring.com/teaware.asp?cid=10 ) and they are described
> > as:
>
> Of the nine tea bowls shown, 6 hold 300 ml, 2 hold 100 ml, and one
> holds 50 ml. The 300 ml bowls are the right size for Japanese tea
> ceremony. Temmoku tea bowls are conically shaped, and meant for
> serving in a wooden or lacquered stand. This was a way of showing
> honor to a special guest. Nowadays, in Japan, temmoku bowls with the
> stands are usually used for preparing tea to be offered to Buddhas at
> temples or Shinto deities at shrines.
>
> I should note that these 6 tea bowls on this page are all the right
> size and shape for a "temmoku." They all also have glazes that are
> typical of "temmoku" tea bowls. The word "temmoku," in Japan, however,
> is *also* used to talk about these kinds of glazes, even if the glaze
> is used on some other utensil. I expect most potters in Japan would
> recognize all of these glazes as being "temmoku," but for the normal
> Japanese person, the word usually conjures up brown and black images,
> much like the (smallest) bowl in the upper right corner of the
> Teaspring page, or the 100 ml "Temmoku II" in the middle of the top
> row.
>
> > What it doesn't say, however, is if one uses these to drink tea out of.
> > Does anyone have any of these? Do you use them as a cup -- is it
> > awkward to drink from? Or does one just use them as a bowl in which to
> > steep tea in?
>
> In the Japanese tea ceremony, powdered green tea (matcha) is put into a
> bowl, a small amount of hot water is added, and they are whipped
> together with a bamboo whisk. The tea will be served in the bowl. The
> bowl will only have about three tablespoons of tea in it, but the
> relatively large size of the bowl allows the host to whisk the tea
> without slopping.
>
> When drinking Japanese tea ceremony tea, you hold the bowl with two
> hands. You don't drink this kind of tea while trying to type a letter
> or answer the door. Even when drinking matcha in extremely casual
> settings, you stop whatever else you are doing, and focus-- for the
> 15-20 seconds it takes-- on drinking the tea.
>
> Personally, I'd rather go to a tea-utensil shop in Japan and *look* at
> the individual tea bowls rather than buy them online. On the other
> hand, coming from a Japanese context, these bowls all look "right," and
> the prices seem perfectly reasonable. On the third hand, if you want
> just one bowl for preparing matcha, I wouldn't start with these: their
> conical shape isn't the easiest place to learn to whisk tea. I'd look
> for bowls with broader bases that wouldn't tip over as easily.
>
> james-henry holland
> japanese language and culture
> hobart and william smith colleges
> geneva, new york 14456

This was a very informative answer, and I agree wholeheartedly --
especially about tenmoku being somewhat more difficult to handle than a
raku ware, which tends to have vertical walls. I like the wood-feeling
black raku ware for this sort of thing.

Would a blue (or any other non black/brown colour) glazed bowl shaped
like a normal tenmoku be considered a tenmoku bowl, or is there some
other name for those colours? I've seen some in a baby blue colour
(with patches of navy) and some other less conventional colours.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

That saved lots of time.

Jim

MarshalN wrote:
> Space Cowboy wrote:
> > To save me some time, what are the Japanese characters for:
> > fujisan, temmoku, raku
> >
> > TIA,
> > Jim
>
> ¸»Ê¿É½¡¢ÌìÄ¿¡¢˜S, in that order.
>
> MarshalN
> http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

> What it doesn't say, however, is if one uses these to drink tea out of.
> Does anyone have any of these? Do you use them as a cup -- is it
> awkward to drink from? Or does one just use them as a bowl in which to
> steep tea in?

This kind of bowl is used to make Sung dynasty style green powdered
tea. See my blog entry he
http://teamasters.blogspot.com/2006/...-960-1279.html

Ideally, for this, the diameter of the 'mouth' of the bowl would be
11.5cm to 12.5 cm.

It's also possible to brew a small amout of green tea in it:
http://teamasters.blogspot.com/2005/...a-in-bowl.html

And for the smaller, antique Jian Yang bowls, I also like to use them
as drinking cups. The old glaze has a good way of interacting with
cooked/old puerh or heavily roasted oolong.

Stéphane

Michael Plant > wrote:
> Lewis 11/5/06
> > "kid_kei" > writes:
> >[ . . . ]

I bought a Macha Bowl (Matcha Chawan) at http://www.hibiki-an.com/

No bragging rights, but functional and attractive. Just the right size for
whisking with a Chasen (don't remember where I bought that) and fits my
hand nicely.

I also bought a Bue Dimension teapot for my Genmaicha, handmade from Yixing
clay, at http://www.immortalitea.com/

This is quite nice, makes one cup of tea at a time and is easy to clean. I
only clean it with hot water and a soft bristle brush.

I buy my teas, sashimi grade fish, sake, etc. at Mitsuwa market in Little
Tokyo, Los Angeles. www.mitsuwa.com

HTH

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
~Semper Fi~