How does everyone taste their tea? For the first infusion I will sip
the tea after inhaling a little air and then exhale through my nose
after I swallow the tea. For the next several infusions I let the tea
move around my mouth, mostly to see how it feels. What does everyone
else do? I'm looking to make my technique better, and I'm sure I have
plenty of room for improvement.

When I'm tasting seriously (yeah..haha), I adopt the wine tasting
technique of gurgling the tea while inhaling through my mouth and make
this rude noise. I swirl the liquid around for 10 seconds or more to
evaluate the texture. During swallowing, I concentrate on its texture
going down the throat. After swallowing, my lips are closed, I breathe
through my nose and count the seconds it takes for the residual taste
to dissipate.

If you have attained the level that I have, you will occasionally choke
while gurgling the tea and it comes out the nose. Now, that's really
fun! Your guests/spouse/children will usually be entertained when that
happens.

Phyll


xDustinx wrote:
> How does everyone taste their tea? For the first infusion I will sip
> the tea after inhaling a little air and then exhale through my nose
> after I swallow the tea. For the next several infusions I let the tea
> move around my mouth, mostly to see how it feels. What does everyone
> else do? I'm looking to make my technique better, and I'm sure I have
> plenty of room for improvement.

First, examine and SMELL the leaf before brewing.
This will give you a good start on knowing where
the brewed taste is comming from.

Second, smell the brewed liquor in the cup. This
will further give you a deeper foretaste of what
you are drinking.

Third, sip a good amount of the tea after it has
cooled enough to hold in your mouth. Allow the
tea to hit ALL areas of your tongue as you swish
it around your mouth. Breathe deeply and then
swallow whilst noting the taste as it goes down
your throat.

Aftwards, enjoy the rest of the cup in a more
"normal" mode, but still paying attention to the
taste as it cools. Note the taste remaining on
your tongue as you continue to drink it.

--
H.L.Law

Lawman, do you also smell the empty cup / bottom of gaiwan / the under
lid of gaiwan and smell the wet leaves in your pot/gaiwan, etc.?

Phyll

Lawman wrote:
> First, examine and SMELL the leaf before brewing.
> This will give you a good start on knowing where
> the brewed taste is comming from.
>
> Second, smell the brewed liquor in the cup. This
> will further give you a deeper foretaste of what
> you are drinking.
>
> Third, sip a good amount of the tea after it has
> cooled enough to hold in your mouth. Allow the
> tea to hit ALL areas of your tongue as you swish
> it around your mouth. Breathe deeply and then
> swallow whilst noting the taste as it goes down
> your throat.
>
> Aftwards, enjoy the rest of the cup in a more
> "normal" mode, but still paying attention to the
> taste as it cools. Note the taste remaining on
> your tongue as you continue to drink it.
>
> --
> H.L.Law

Hola, Dustin,

Hope life's treating you well!

> What does everyone else do?

I do the following, more or less. Nothing too rigidly adhered-to, but
usually most of them:

1. Examine and smell the dry leaves.
Get an idea of the oxidation level, and the amount of roasting. Check
out the compression/rolling.

2. Examine the rinse.
Frothy/filthy? Cloudy?

3. Infuse properly, and smell the lid of the pot, then the leaves
themselves.
Relate the scents of the lid to those in the leaves - usually perfumed
vs. pungent/powerful. The lid-scent often changes as more evaporation
takes place; get an idea for the way in which it evolves, and compare
it to your past experiences with tea of that type.

4. Pour into aroma cup (wenxiangbei). Place the tasting cup
(pinmingbei) on top. Invert, so that the soup is in the aroma cup, and
serve. Pulling out the aroma cup ejects the tea, of course - the
initial scent is the "bottom-cup scent" (beidixiang). Often the
intense floral character, if present, may be shown here, evolving into
the mid-scent. As the cup cools (perhaps over ten seconds), the "cold
scent" (lengxiang) takes over. Sometimes more buttery, "brown", or
rich depending on the type of tea.

5. Get tasting.
Like Phyll, I'm unashamedly noisy. Sip with some air to circulate the
flavour, remembering that a large portion of our taste mechanism is
supported by scent. Examine the initial impact on the tongue. Feel
the flavour recede to the back of the mouth, and interact with the
sides of the tongue, the roof of the mouth. This "mid-taste", as I've
found in the past and also noticed on Phyll's blog, is occassionally
missing entirely (Phyll's "doughnut hole"). Examine the "hind-taste"
as you swallow. Try to avoid nasal ejection (painful). The
after-taste can tell you as much about the quality of the leaf as many
other aspects - is it enduring, robust? Most of all... did you enjoy
the tea? Life's too short to cope with mediocre tea.

Describing flavour is a whole vocabulary on its own. I tend to become
inexplicably violent when I read other people using the word
"mouthfeel". Then again, I use more than my share of silly words, so
I'm sure it all evens out in the end.

6. Repeat 3-5 for later infusions.

7. Tip out the leaves into your vessel of choice.
Are the leaves chopped? Are their edges brutally savaged, as often
happens with mechanically-picked leaf? Are they beautifully preserved
in their original state? What're the size and mixture like? Is there
any stem-structure connecting leaves?


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

snip snip snip

> I tend to become
> inexplicably violent when I read other people using the word
> "mouthfeel". Then again, I use more than my share of silly words, so
> I'm sure it all evens out in the end.

Guilty. The feel of the tea in the mouth
is part of the tea's pleasure, and when it is
too thin or too thick, it can ruin the overall
experience. This is especially true for old
Sheng Pu'erhs and for well roasted WuYi's.
When the mouthfeel is right, there is an ever
changing flavor coating in the mouth and on
the tongue, especially perhaps at the back of
the throat. This can move from sweet carmel
to wood or bitter/sour notes. You can hardly
speak of Bao Zhong without speaking of its
feel in the mouth. These are solely my own
opinions. I don't mean to imply that others
should feel the same way.

I know what you mean by silly words, though.
Ultimately, all words are silly when it comes to
tea drinking.

How do I drink? I sniff dry leaf, wet leaf,
lid, liquor, empty cup, gaiwan, or pot by
turns and at the right moments as the mood
strikes, and with others whenever these
things are offered to me for inspection. I
drink by slurp and gurgle and slosh in
quiet concentration. Most amazing to me
is how the tea unfolds when I'm focused
on it, and how different the tea drinking
experience is when I'm not. Breathing out
to enjoy the tea's aroma has been mentioned
to me before in other context. I have to
remind myself to do it. It's worth the effort.

I think by the way that that is one of the
best questions that's gotten asked around
here in quite awhile. Praise to the original
poster.

Michael

Ah yes, it's not the concept of how tea feels in the mouth that seems
to send me into a beserker Viking rage, just the word "mouthfeel".
Perhaps "rage" is a bit strong. Maybe it's more of a beserker Viking
niggle. Surely even Vikings had niggles.

I think more is better than less when drinking tea. I brew half liter
pots and drink from open mouth glass cup which fills the nostrils,
sensitizes the tastebuds, coats the throat, and warms the stomach which
is a feedback mechanism to help you taste the tea better. I think the
larger infusion is a more accurate taste profile than the where's the
tea proper zodiac alignment gongfu vessel style of hit and miss. I
think gongfu might be better on an empty stomach but I make a point of
never being hungry as you could tell.

Jim

PS A change in tea taste is a change in health or just getting older
as in my case. I now depend more on psychology than physiology in my
approach to drinking tea. The above sounds physical but it is sense
immersion where the ego ends up just going along for the ride.

xDustinx wrote:
> How does everyone taste their tea? For the first infusion I will sip
> the tea after inhaling a little air and then exhale through my nose
> after I swallow the tea. For the next several infusions I let the tea
> move around my mouth, mostly to see how it feels. What does everyone
> else do? I'm looking to make my technique better, and I'm sure I have
> plenty of room for improvement.

Phyll <---- Yep, guilty too for using the word "mouthfeel" too many
times. I've got to look for its synonym. The tactile sensation in the
mouth (how's that?) is an imporatatn factor to me...


HobbesOxon wrote:
> Ah yes, it's not the concept of how tea feels in the mouth that seems
> to send me into a beserker Viking rage, just the word "mouthfeel".
> Perhaps "rage" is a bit strong. Maybe it's more of a beserker Viking
> niggle. Surely even Vikings had niggles.

imporatatn is the origin of the word "important", in case you didn't
know.

Phyll wrote:
> Phyll <---- Yep, guilty too for using the word "mouthfeel" too many
> times. I've got to look for its synonym. The tactile sensation in the
> mouth (how's that?) is an imporatatn factor to me...
>
>
> HobbesOxon wrote:
> > Ah yes, it's not the concept of how tea feels in the mouth that seems
> > to send me into a beserker Viking rage, just the word "mouthfeel".
> > Perhaps "rage" is a bit strong. Maybe it's more of a beserker Viking
> > niggle. Surely even Vikings had niggles.

xDustinx wrote:
> How does everyone taste their tea? For the first infusion I will sip
> the tea after inhaling a little air and then exhale through my nose
> after I swallow the tea. For the next several infusions I let the tea
> move around my mouth, mostly to see how it feels. What does everyone
> else do? I'm looking to make my technique better, and I'm sure I have
> plenty of room for improvement.

I think the responses here pretty much sum it up, but the only real
difference for me that seems to be neglected in a lot of posts is that
I spend as much time after I've swallowed to enjoy the aftertaste and
any extra or different flavors that come through after the fact. A lot
of times this is where you can pinpoint subtle flavors lost in the
initial tasting. Often I find I can detect a hint of something from
smelling the lid or the leaves as they brew, and the place I finally
put my finger on it is in this aftertaste stage.

I smell the leaves dry, enjoy the aroma while it brews, smell the
actual liquor once brewed, sip it in and move it around to cover the
tounge, swallow, breathe and then pay attention to the aftertaste, then
once "warmed up" I will again smell the liquor and then just enjoy the
rest of the cup/pot.

- Dominic

Roy Fong at ITC is a stickler for how a tea feels in the mouth; he has
at times espoused a technique involving sipping the tea, holding it in
the front of the mouth and using the tongue to determine how thick or
silky the tea tastes before swallowing it. Since I became aware of this
I've really changed how I judge puerh teas. The really good ones
sometimes have a very subtle taste but great mouthfeel, although one
would hope they would have both.

I'm really digging YSLLCs '97 Xia Guan cooked cake right now, btw.

Michael Plant wrote:
> snip snip snip
>
> > I tend to become
> > inexplicably violent when I read other people using the word
> > "mouthfeel". Then again, I use more than my share of silly words, so
> > I'm sure it all evens out in the end.
>
> Guilty. The feel of the tea in the mouth
> is part of the tea's pleasure, and when it is
> too thin or too thick, it can ruin the overall
> experience. This is especially true for old
> Sheng Pu'erhs and for well roasted WuYi's.
> When the mouthfeel is right, there is an ever
> changing flavor coating in the mouth and on
> the tongue, especially perhaps at the back of
> the throat. This can move from sweet carmel
> to wood or bitter/sour notes. You can hardly
> speak of Bao Zhong without speaking of its
> feel in the mouth. These are solely my own
> opinions. I don't mean to imply that others
> should feel the same way.
>
> I know what you mean by silly words, though.
> Ultimately, all words are silly when it comes to
> tea drinking.
>
> How do I drink? I sniff dry leaf, wet leaf,
> lid, liquor, empty cup, gaiwan, or pot by
> turns and at the right moments as the mood
> strikes, and with others whenever these
> things are offered to me for inspection. I
> drink by slurp and gurgle and slosh in
> quiet concentration. Most amazing to me
> is how the tea unfolds when I'm focused
> on it, and how different the tea drinking
> experience is when I'm not. Breathing out
> to enjoy the tea's aroma has been mentioned
> to me before in other context. I have to
> remind myself to do it. It's worth the effort.
>
> I think by the way that that is one of the
> best questions that's gotten asked around
> here in quite awhile. Praise to the original
> poster.
>
> Michael

11/7/06


> Ah yes, it's not the concept of how tea feels in the mouth that seems
> to send me into a beserker Viking rage, just the word "mouthfeel".
> Perhaps "rage" is a bit strong. Maybe it's more of a beserker Viking
> niggle. Surely even Vikings had niggles.

Yes, I understood. Actually, I'm not fond of
buzz words either, especial those commonly
applied to tea. We're on the same page. Still
guilty, though.

Anybody here know how far the finger tap
on the table to signify "thank you" extends
into other areas of Chinese culture? That
is, is this signal commonly used in other
context beyond tea? Just curious?

Michael

11/7/06


> Phyll <---- Yep, guilty too for using the word "mouthfeel" too many
> times. I've got to look for its synonym. The tactile sensation in the
> mouth (how's that?) is an imporatatn factor to me...


Or we could just be more specific about
what we mean, since different teas present
differently in this regard.

I'm drinking a Bai Ji Guan this morning
that's full of flavor and a warm
sweet complex finish of wood-flower.
The finish comes up only after the tea
is well down the throat, comes up as
a floral-fruit friendly essence, and then
changes going toward something just
hinting of metal. This *might* be a
sense of the feeling called "mouthfeel,"
but I usually use that word to describe
a thickness in the liquor that carries
the flavors throughout the mouth just
right somehow. Anyway, buzz buzz.

Michael (equally guilty)

Michael Plant wrote:
> 11/7/06
>
>
> > Ah yes, it's not the concept of how tea feels in the mouth that seems
> > to send me into a beserker Viking rage, just the word "mouthfeel".
> > Perhaps "rage" is a bit strong. Maybe it's more of a beserker Viking
> > niggle. Surely even Vikings had niggles.
>
> Yes, I understood. Actually, I'm not fond of
> buzz words either, especial those commonly
> applied to tea. We're on the same page. Still
> guilty, though.
>
> Anybody here know how far the finger tap
> on the table to signify "thank you" extends
> into other areas of Chinese culture? That
> is, is this signal commonly used in other
> context beyond tea? Just curious?
>
> Michael

One example - if someone lights your cigarette, you tap their hand
twice. I always thought that was really classy. Otherwise I think
just for tea and alcohol.

As for the term 'mouthfeel', I always assumed that it came from the
Chinese term 'kougan', but I learned here
http://www.wordspy.com/words/mouthfeel.asp that it appeared in the NYT
in 1973 - probably too early to have been introduced by tea nerds.

Alex
Nasty cold, home from work, haven't decided what to drink yet

Danica wrote:
> Roy Fong at ITC is a stickler for how a tea feels in the mouth; he has
> at times espoused a technique involving sipping the tea, holding it in
> the front of the mouth and using the tongue to determine how thick or
> silky the tea tastes before swallowing it. Since I became aware of this
> I've really changed how I judge puerh teas. The really good ones
> sometimes have a very subtle taste but great mouthfeel, although one
> would hope they would have both.
>
> I'm really digging YSLLCs '97 Xia Guan cooked cake right now, btw.
>

I use the term "mouthfeel" because it's a direct translation of the
word "kougan". There's no way to describe that term.

For young puerh, it is pretty much the ONLY criteria that should be
used to evaluate the tea, because almost all the flavours will change
over the course of aging, but mouthfeel is something that will stay
constant and will tell you more about the quality of the tea than any
flavour you're getting from it for now. A puerh that tastes great now
might not age into something great, and vice versa. In fact, if a
puerh tastes too good (for example, if it reminds you of a good oolong)
it's probably not good for aging. If it's not bitter at all or not
astringent at all, it's probably not good for aging. If it's too
fragrant, it's probably not good for aging.

While I'm not in the "it has to taste nasty now for it to be great"
school, it is unfortunately true that some producers now are making
puerh that tastes great now, but at the possible price of its future.
Some renowned Taiwanese puerh makers are guilty of this.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

Danica wrote:
> Roy Fong at ITC is a stickler for how a tea feels in the mouth; he has
> at times espoused a technique involving sipping the tea, holding it in
> the front of the mouth and using the tongue to determine how thick or
> silky the tea tastes before swallowing it. Since I became aware of this
> I've really changed how I judge puerh teas. The really good ones
> sometimes have a very subtle taste but great mouthfeel, although one
> would hope they would have both.
>
> I'm really digging YSLLCs '97 Xia Guan cooked cake right now, btw.
>

I use the term "mouthfeel" because it's a direct translation of the
word "kougan". There's no way to describe that term.

For young puerh, it is pretty much the ONLY criteria that should be
used to evaluate the tea, because almost all the flavours will change
over the course of aging, but mouthfeel is something that will stay
constant and will tell you more about the quality of the tea than any
flavour you're getting from it for now. A puerh that tastes great now
might not age into something great, and vice versa. In fact, if a
puerh tastes too good (for example, if it reminds you of a good oolong)
it's probably not good for aging. If it's not bitter at all or not
astringent at all, it's probably not good for aging. If it's too
fragrant, it's probably not good for aging.

While I'm not in the "it has to taste nasty now for it to be great"
school, it is unfortunately true that some producers now are making
puerh that tastes great now, but at the possible price of its future.
Some renowned Taiwanese puerh makers are guilty of this.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

xDustinx wrote:
> How does everyone taste their tea? For the first infusion I will sip
> the tea after inhaling a little air and then exhale through my nose
> after I swallow the tea. For the next several infusions I let the tea
> move around my mouth, mostly to see how it feels. What does everyone
> else do? I'm looking to make my technique better, and I'm sure I have
> plenty of room for improvement.

Want to put my 2 jiao into the conversation, but I'm not sure where;
here seems suitable.

Along with checking out the residual aftertaste and the 'kougan'
(mouthfeel?) by holding the tea in my mouth at various places, I like
to slurp the tea when drinking. I feel it aerates the tea a bit, not
only cooling it, but sorta massaging my tongue with the various nuances
all over my tongue. Usually after the second sip, I will do what
others have said and experiment with which part of my tongue to expose
the tea to.

"MarshalN" > writes:

> [...]
>
> I use the term "mouthfeel" because it's a direct translation of the
> word "kougan". There's no way to describe that term.
>
> For young puerh, it is pretty much the ONLY criteria that should be
> used to evaluate the tea, because almost all the flavours will change
> over the course of aging, but mouthfeel is something that will stay
> constant and will tell you more about the quality of the tea than any
> flavour you're getting from it for now.

Could you describe what pleases your mouth in a Pu'er?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
always apposite: Cha Zhi Fou Zang Cun Yu Kou Jue

On 8 Nov 2006 12:45:21 -0800, "MarshalN" > wrote:

>For young puerh, it is pretty much the ONLY criteria that should be
>used to evaluate the tea, because almost all the flavours will change
>over the course of aging, but mouthfeel is something that will stay
>constant and will tell you more about the quality of the tea than any
>flavour you're getting from it for now. A puerh that tastes great now
>might not age into something great, and vice versa. In fact, if a
>puerh tastes too good (for example, if it reminds you of a good oolong)
>it's probably not good for aging. If it's not bitter at all or not
>astringent at all, it's probably not good for aging. If it's too
>fragrant, it's probably not good for aging.
>
>While I'm not in the "it has to taste nasty now for it to be great"
>school, it is unfortunately true that some producers now are making
>puerh that tastes great now, but at the possible price of its future.
>Some renowned Taiwanese puerh makers are guilty of this.

A large Puerh dealer in Kunming, who tutored me early on, held similar
views. This guy sells literally sells tons of puerh every month, he
owns his own shop in the oldest market in Kunming, he also works
directly with the owners of that tea market itself in Kunming, he has
proven himself to me time and again as being extremely knowledgeable
in his craft.

Anyway, he taught me that a good aging candidate will have a certain
strength in its youth, and that it is this strength that develops into
the characters we appreciate in an aged gem. He warned me against
investing in sweet tasting young puerhs like the silver tip ones that
are popular now. These taste great now but do not have that strength
(could he be referring to a form of Qi?) that make them worthy of
taking up storage space for years. He also warned me against many of
these mild tasting young puerhs as they also do not have the strength
required for aging. Cakes that he sent me that he described as being
good candidates did have a lot of astringency and were often bitter,
they did not taste great when young but some were drinkable if you
acquire the taste for astringency, others were simply too strong. He
taught me to be conscious of the feeling in my body, to look for the
"flush" that would start in my chest and spread up through my head,
this was the strength he was referring to, not to be confused with
caffeine either.

Wang also warned me about many of these so called wild arbor cakes.
Many of them come from trees in old abandoned plantations. He spoke of
five families who used to own most of these plantations. He said many
of the plantations were abandoned because the soils had been depleted
and the trees simply did not yield good tea anymore. Now many,
particularly Taiwanese, speculators are investing in these old
plantations. The tea from them will not live up to the hype, from what
I am told.

--
Mike Petro
http://www.pu-erh.net

Mike 11/10/06


> On 8 Nov 2006 12:45:21 -0800, "MarshalN" > wrote:
>
>> For young puerh, it is pretty much the ONLY criteria that should be
>> used to evaluate the tea, because almost all the flavours will change
>> over the course of aging, but mouthfeel is something that will stay
>> constant and will tell you more about the quality of the tea than any
>> flavour you're getting from it for now. A puerh that tastes great now
>> might not age into something great, and vice versa. In fact, if a
>> puerh tastes too good (for example, if it reminds you of a good oolong)
>> it's probably not good for aging. If it's not bitter at all or not
>> astringent at all, it's probably not good for aging. If it's too
>> fragrant, it's probably not good for aging.
>>
>> While I'm not in the "it has to taste nasty now for it to be great"
>> school, it is unfortunately true that some producers now are making
>> puerh that tastes great now, but at the possible price of its future.
>> Some renowned Taiwanese puerh makers are guilty of this.
>
> A large Puerh dealer in Kunming, who tutored me early on, held similar
> views. This guy sells literally sells tons of puerh every month, he
> owns his own shop in the oldest market in Kunming, he also works
> directly with the owners of that tea market itself in Kunming, he has
> proven himself to me time and again as being extremely knowledgeable
> in his craft.

His credentials needn't be defended, as yours are impecable.

> Anyway, he taught me that a good aging candidate will have a certain
> strength in its youth, and that it is this strength that develops into
> the characters we appreciate in an aged gem. He warned me against
> investing in sweet tasting young puerhs like the silver tip ones that
> are popular now. These taste great now but do not have that strength
> (could he be referring to a form of Qi?) that make them worthy of
> taking up storage space for years. He also warned me against many of
> these mild tasting young puerhs as they also do not have the strength
> required for aging. Cakes that he sent me that he described as being
> good candidates did have a lot of astringency and were often bitter,
> they did not taste great when young but some were drinkable if you
> acquire the taste for astringency, others were simply too strong. He
> taught me to be conscious of the feeling in my body, to look for the
> "flush" that would start in my chest and spread up through my head,
> this was the strength he was referring to, not to be confused with
> caffeine either.

That last is the Qi of the tea, but I thought Qi develops with time and
patience over decades, so I'm surprised to hear that we expect strong Qi
from a new Pu'erh. BTW, I drank a 2004 silver bud Pu'erh the other day and
it was lovely, nice, gorgeous, and interesting. Don't expect it to last
forever, but for a few years, I expect great things.

> Wang also warned me about many of these so called wild arbor cakes.
> Many of them come from trees in old abandoned plantations. He spoke of
> five families who used to own most of these plantations. He said many
> of the plantations were abandoned because the soils had been depleted
> and the trees simply did not yield good tea anymore. Now many,
> particularly Taiwanese, speculators are investing in these old
> plantations. The tea from them will not live up to the hype, from what
> I am told.

The depletion of soil is an interesting idea. If an old plantation tree
depletes its soil, what about a 2500 year old tree growing out God knows
where? Can we say that a plantation is lower down the mountain and
the soil is more easily depleted? Can we say that the rock and flint of
the soil around the truly ancient tree keeps the leaf going for hundreds
of years? I have heard this soil depletion idea in reference to the
"original" Da Hong Po trees. What to think? BTW, just how old is this
popular idea of keeping sheng Pu'erh for many decades, enjoying the
improvements in taste, aroma, and style? I suspect the original plantation
planters did *not* subscribe to aging and waiting on purpose. So, in what
sense are those trees depleted? The mind boggles.

Michael

Michael Plant > writes:

> Mike 11/10/06
>
> > [...wild arbor Pu'er trees may suffer from depleted soil...]
>
> The depletion of soil is an interesting idea. If an old plantation
> tree depletes its soil, what about a 2500 year old tree growing out
> God knows where? Can we say that a plantation is lower down the
> mountain and the soil is more easily depleted? Can we say that the
> rock and flint of the soil around the truly ancient tree keeps the
> leaf going for hundreds of years? I have heard this soil depletion
> idea in reference to the "original" Da Hong Po trees. What to think?

You've hit on a very interesting point. Probably none of us, except
Nigel, could convincingly pose as an agronomist, but I do know that
this isn't as simple as it seems. Sure, tea plants subjected to
environmental stresses, e.g. poor nutrition, will yield less leaf, but
for high quality, there are cases where we demand that the trees or
shrubs be tortured:

- Yan cha, which doesn't get much sunlight and, in the case of the
really old trees, probably has depleted soil, too;

- Darjeeling, where it's cold and dim lots of the time, and even the
plants that are genetically identical to Assam shrubs yield far
better tasting (though less plentiful) leaf;

- Frost tea from Nilgiri, obviously;

- Oriental Beauty attacked by leafhoppers.

I don't doubt there are other examples.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin wrote:
> You've hit on a very interesting point. Probably none of us, except
> Nigel, could convincingly pose as an agronomist, but I do know that
> this isn't as simple as it seems. Sure, tea plants subjected to
> environmental stresses, e.g. poor nutrition, will yield less leaf, but
> for high quality, there are cases where we demand that the trees or
> shrubs be tortured:
>
> - Yan cha, which doesn't get much sunlight and, in the case of the
> really old trees, probably has depleted soil, too;
>
> - Darjeeling, where it's cold and dim lots of the time, and even the
> plants that are genetically identical to Assam shrubs yield far
> better tasting (though less plentiful) leaf;
>
> - Frost tea from Nilgiri, obviously;
>
> - Oriental Beauty attacked by leafhoppers.
>
> I don't doubt there are other examples.
>
> /Lew

Gyokuro, where they are kept in shade to produce the light-green color
and inhibit the production of chlorophyl.

I have been growing bonsai for many years now, and that is about as
much torture as you can bring upon a poor defenseless plant... and you
are correct. Nature is all about struggle and survival, they don't get
endless supplies of fertilizer and care and watering, and I do believe
that it is a positive thing for tea. I'm growing my own tea trees from
seeds and have been experimenting with each one. One in rocky soil, one
in regular soil, one being fertilized, one not, and one bonsai. I'm
hoping to eventually see (and possibly taste) the effects first-hand in
a few years.

Not that care will not produce more leaf and even more quality leaf,
but I prefer the real thing. Wild, fairly au natural, and then produced
with care and minimal processing. I don't mind if taste and quality
vary year to year, to me that is the fun of it. Of the puerh I have
bought, I tend to go toward the wild tree/old tree stuff (real or not
who knows) but it does have a different quality than the other puerh I
have bought and I like it.

Similar to my love for Canadian Ice Wine. The grapes are left on the
vine to be exposed to frosting. It concentrates the flavor and then
turned into an amazing wine. I'll take that over some hotsy-totsy thin
skin grape coddled and fawned over until it hits my glass. I like that
natural and "real" aspect.

- Dominic

[MarshalN]
> I use the term "mouthfeel" because it's a direct translation of the
> word "kougan". There's no way to describe that term.
>
Mouth-feel sounds ok to us, but rather confusing for the rest of the world.
How about "Texture of Taste in the Mouth"? Hmm. perhaps even more
confusing...

> For young puerh, it is pretty much the ONLY criteria that should be
> used to evaluate the tea, because almost all the flavours will change
> over the course of aging, but mouthfeel is something that will stay
> constant and will tell you more about the quality of the tea than any
> flavour you're getting from it for now. A puerh that tastes great now
> might not age into something great, and vice versa. In fact, if a
> puerh tastes too good (for example, if it reminds you of a good oolong)
> it's probably not good for aging. If it's not bitter at all or not
> astringent at all, it's probably not good for aging. If it's too
> fragrant, it's probably not good for aging.
>
> While I'm not in the "it has to taste nasty now for it to be great"
> school, it is unfortunately true that some producers now are making
> puerh that tastes great now, but at the possible price of its future.
> Some renowned Taiwanese puerh makers are guilty of this.
>
>
True, but not wholly true.
If we were to base our preference of purchase on the above criteria set, we
would be going off-course.
One has to understand how the above criteria came about, the broad spectrum
of Yunnan leaves from different locations, the differences in processing,
and then see how correct are the above assumptions.

Danny

> BTW, I drank a 2004 silver bud Pu'erh the other day and
> it was lovely, nice, gorgeous, and interesting. Don't expect it to last
> forever, but for a few years, I expect great things.

Michael,

Is the 2004 you're referring to happen to be the mini-beeng from The
Tea Gallery in NY? I ask because I've been drinking this and agree
wholeheartedly with your adjectives.

Steven

Lew, I'll put up my hand as a tea agronomist amongst other things.

The subject of tea quality and stress is, as you suspect, not
straightforward. Neither is it with people some of whom thrive on it
while it destroys others - and react in different ways to any
particular type of stress. I left the safety of corporate Unilever
after 27 years because that sort of stress (lack of control over my own
decisions) gave me psoriasis. The stress of running my own, often
financially precarious, business has never affected me - in fact it is
often exhilerating. My initial Teacraft business partner couldn't
handle the financial insecurity and quit after a few years. Different
plants do well in different soils.

My observations with tea are that quality and stress is not a straight
line correlation. It's certain that too much of a good thing -
nitrogen, warmth, abundant water, will stimulate fast vigorous growth
that lacks quality - Rains teas in Assam and Darjeeling is a good
example - soft cups but high yields. Slow growth - due to cool weather
or drying winds combined with rocky soil tends to give a peak of
quality - the low yielding Uva quality season in Sri Lanka for
instance. Just to take one single variable - nitrogen fertilizer - one
certainly show a diminishing cup quality with increasing nitrogen BUT
the line will not start at zero. The response is quadratic. Reduce
nitrogen below a certain point and cup quality will again diminish.

I suspect the effect of rocky soils is the same - a degree of depletion
slows growth and improves quality - but deplete too far and it will
reduce quality.

Soil pH is possible the most obvious illustration of the effect. Tea
thrives at pH 5.0 but growth declines with increasing soil pH until
plants actually die at pH 7.0 Similarly, growth declines at reducing
pH and plants actually die at pH 3.0 Between 3 and 7 there is a
perfect quadratic response peaking at 5.0 I supect that the best pH
for cup quality is around pH 4 - below optimum for yield (pH 5) but
well above the plunge into the death zone.

The moral being that for optimum tea quality you must not spoil the
bushes with unlimited treats - deal with them firmly but not too hard -
lots think that effective child raising follows similar rules.

Nigel at Teacraft




Lewis Perin wrote:
> You've hit on a very interesting point. Probably none of us, except
> Nigel, could convincingly pose as an agronomist, but I do know that
> this isn't as simple as it seems. Sure, tea plants subjected to
> environmental stresses, e.g. poor nutrition, will yield less leaf, but
> for high quality, there are cases where we demand that the trees or
> shrubs be tortured:
>

I too slurp. Probably in different ways and for different reasons ...
for greens to aerate and bring out different pflavours (sp left
inedited), with reds partly to allow me to taste the tea hotter and
less brewed (I drink most teas in-cup)

.... just thought of something which I might incorporate into my -style-
from now on : drink reds left handed and greens right handed ...

Also, slurping irritates almost everyone. It can be likened to an upper
class belch. Generally, my -style- could thus be classed : Jar; Loud;
Thick ... I liked the sound of Jim's 'keep it big' ... and now
Ambidextrous - I always drank Dextrous


Mydnight wrote:

> Want to put my 2 jiao into the conversation, but I'm not sure where;
> here seems suitable.
>
> Along with checking out the residual aftertaste and the 'kougan'
> (mouthfeel?) by holding the tea in my mouth at various places, I like
> to slurp the tea when drinking. I feel it aerates the tea a bit, not
> only cooling it, but sorta massaging my tongue with the various nuances
> all over my tongue. Usually after the second sip, I will do what
> others have said and experiment with which part of my tongue to expose
> the tea to.

Hmm, I thought it meant

'Here! And be quick about it!'



> Michael Plant wrote:
> > Anybody here know how far the finger tap
> > on the table to signify "thank you" extends
> > into other areas of Chinese culture? That
> > is, is this signal commonly used in other
> > context beyond tea? Just curious?

Alex wrote:
> One example - if someone lights your cigarette, you tap their hand
> twice. I always thought that was really classy. Otherwise I think
> just for tea and alcohol.

Oh, this is completely unknown to me. And I like (but can drink little
/ inoften) Nilgiri teas with their slight greenness and dryness alike
to Darjeelings. Can you point me somewhere to find out more, Lew?


Lewis Perin wrote:

> - Frost tea from Nilgiri, obviously;

(Nigel wrote ...)
> The moral being that for optimum tea quality you must not spoil the
> bushes with unlimited treats - deal with them firmly but not too hard -
> lots think that effective child raising follows similar rules.


Hence the phrase 'Nothing but tea' Nigel?

Im T

For anybody interested, here is the definition of 'Kou Gan', or
'Mouthfeel', or 'Mouth-feel' or whatever - in chinese. According to
the China Tea Encyclopedia, the term in English is 'Tasting Sensation'
- just as inadequate...

�感 [Tasting Sensation]
茶湯ä¸*的呈味物支在å�£è…”å…§åˆºæ¿€å‘³è¦ºç´ °èƒžè€Œå½¢æˆ�的綜å�ˆæ„Ÿè¦º.
與æ��ç´*性術語組å�ˆå¾Œ, 用于å°�滋味的綜å�ˆè©•å®š, 如:
�感良好.

Danny

On 11/10/2006 17:19:46 " > wrote:

Michael,

> Is the 2004 you're referring to happen to be the mini-beeng from The Tea
> Gallery in NY? I ask because I've been drinking this and agree
> wholeheartedly with your adjectives.

> Steven


Yes, it is. Indeed. My string of
meaningless, unhelpful adjectives
was meant humorously, but I am
very fond of the tea.
Michael

Danny wrote:
> For anybody interested, here is the definition of 'Kou Gan', or
> 'Mouthfeel', or 'Mouth-feel' or whatever - in chinese. According to
> the China Tea Encyclopedia, the term in English is 'Tasting Sensation'
> - just as inadequate...
>
> �感 [Tasting Sensation]
> 茶湯ä¸*的呈味物支在å�£è…”å…§åˆºæ¿€å‘³è¦ºç´ °èƒžè€Œå½¢æˆ�的綜å�ˆæ„Ÿè¦º.
> 與æ��ç´*性術語組å�ˆå¾Œ, 用于å°�滋味的綜å�ˆè©•å®š, 如:
> �感良好.
>
> Danny

Danny, the encyclopedia you mentioned. Is it in Chinese? What is the
name of that book in Chinese? I am interested in acquiring such handy
book. Thanks!

Hee

Yeah Danny, are you referring to the

Cha Ye Da Ci Dian, by (I think) Chen Zong Mao? That is the book that
Livio put me on to and I finally picked it up last year. It's in
chinese only, excepting some odd words up in English, but you'd need
modern chinese characters for it to be any use to you. If it's this
one, its big and costs about 380 yuan.

Immo T


According to
> > the China Tea Encyclopedia, the term in English is 'Tasting Sensation'

> Danny, the encyclopedia you mentioned. Is it in Chinese? What is the
> name of that book in Chinese? I am interested in acquiring such handy
> book. Thanks!
>
> Hee

Bingo!

That's the one.

Not many bookstores carry it, so grab it while you can...

:")

Danny


> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Yeah Danny, are you referring to the
>
> Cha Ye Da Ci Dian, by (I think) Chen Zong Mao? That is the book that
> Livio put me on to and I finally picked it up last year. It's in
> chinese only, excepting some odd words up in English, but you'd need
> modern chinese characters for it to be any use to you. If it's this
> one, its big and costs about 380 yuan.
>
> Immo T
>
>
> According to
>> > the China Tea Encyclopedia, the term in English is 'Tasting Sensation'
>
>> Danny, the encyclopedia you mentioned. Is it in Chinese? What is the
>> name of that book in Chinese? I am interested in acquiring such handy
>> book. Thanks!
>>
>> Hee
>

In that case it's not exactly 'handy' , Hee, but I'm pleased I finally
got a copy (presently stored away and not to hand, but I'll be able to
look at it next week) -

it's not just tea, but an encyclopaedia of all things tea - like
agricultural equipment!
Tho' it's huge and the several pages on chinese tea are most
interesting -

if you have difficulty finding it (um ie in China I mean) I could point
you to where I bought it (near Qianmen, Beijing) and possible other
stockists - if you're after tracking down an import copy (expensive I
would presume) let me know and I'll have a look for any ISBN etc stuff
on it.

Cheers,

MIT


samarkand wrote:
> Bingo!
> That's the one.
> Not many bookstores carry it, so grab it while you can...

> >> Danny, the encyclopedia you mentioned. Is it in Chinese? What is the
> >> name of that book in Chinese? I am interested in acquiring such handy
> >> book. Thanks!

Look at D025 on this page for publishing Info:

http://www.jnbook.com/book/dbooks2.htm

The author Chen Zong Mao works at Agricultural Tea Ministry or
something like that. You can find him on the Internet.

Jim

wrote:
> In that case it's not exactly 'handy' , Hee, but I'm pleased I finally
> got a copy (presently stored away and not to hand, but I'll be able to
> look at it next week) -
>
> it's not just tea, but an encyclopaedia of all things tea - like
> agricultural equipment!
> Tho' it's huge and the several pages on chinese tea are most
> interesting -
>
> if you have difficulty finding it (um ie in China I mean) I could point
> you to where I bought it (near Qianmen, Beijing) and possible other
> stockists - if you're after tracking down an import copy (expensive I
> would presume) let me know and I'll have a look for any ISBN etc stuff
> on it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> MIT
>
>
> samarkand wrote:
> > Bingo!
> > That's the one.
> > Not many bookstores carry it, so grab it while you can...
>
> > >> Danny, the encyclopedia you mentioned. Is it in Chinese? What is the
> > >> name of that book in Chinese? I am interested in acquiring such handy
> > >> book. Thanks!

Sorry... still can't shake off my excitement over the upcoming OSU and
Michigan game..... ahem!

Thanks guys. Let me check out my local bookstores first and see if I
can find a copy of this book (I live in Malaysia.). I do have a chinese
friend who are planning to attend a tea related event in Kuala Lumpur
next week. Let me see if he can help me out with this.

With higher grades of tea I often like to focus on the sensation that
it leaves in my body. I find some teas extremely relaxing, whereas
others are the complete opposite. Some are cooling and refreshing,
others are warming and "grounding".

A Da Hong Pao I recently acquired seems to clear my lungs and I feel
like I can breath easier - not disimilar to Vicks! Has anyone had a
similar experience with any teas? Is that a similar sensation to the Qi
that Mike mentioned regarding certain pu-erhs?

Adrian

Hee,

The tea and coffee expo at the KL International Convention Centre (?) will
have a book fare on related subjects as well. I'm sure your friend will
have no problem finding it!

:")

Danny


"Hee" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Sorry... still can't shake off my excitement over the upcoming OSU and
> Michigan game..... ahem!
>
> Thanks guys. Let me check out my local bookstores first and see if I
> can find a copy of this book (I live in Malaysia.). I do have a chinese
> friend who are planning to attend a tea related event in Kuala Lumpur
> next week. Let me see if he can help me out with this.
>