"MarshalN" > writes:

> samarkand wrote:
>
> ...
>
> By the way, while this has been extremely interesting to discuss
> interpretations of older texts on tea, I am afraid we might be
> spamming other people's mailboxes when such texts are,
> unfortunately, not available to them in any form

No, no, no! I promise to let you know when I'm bored.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Danny, thanks for the great post (and to others, also, for making this
thread an enjoyable and interesting read). I'd like to second the
recommendation of Lin Yutang, particularly as he is one of the few
scholars of the Chinese old-school whose work is largely available to a
Western audience. I imagine most people would find his urbane brand of
humourous wisdom amusing and relevant even in modern times.

The more things change, the more they stay the same.


Toodlepip,

Hobbes

[Dominic]
>>> ...while I enjoy improvising at times or repurposing other
>>> things for tea usage... I don't think that is exactly in the spirit of
>>> Gong Fu either.
>>
>> [Michael] yes it is too!!!!!!

[Dominic]
> I just don't like "modernizing" it too much, it kind of loses its soul
> to me.

much snippage.

[Michael]
I'm mostly saying that concepts of right and wrong tea or good and bad tea,
like facts and truths, are ascribed. (Think Durkheim.) Ascribe truth to your
heart's content; just realize that that is what we do. That's my basic
answser to most things tea; but, I still look forward to starting my serious
journey down the Gung Fu tea road.

much snippage

[Danny]
> ...I'm trying to point out is that the development of Gongfu style went
> further back, and can be traced back as far as Luyu. Tradition is never
> static, it evolves over time with the peoples that practiced it, so what the
> Gongfu style we have now, which is still changing and adapting, is not
> developed 30 years ago, but its genesis went much further back in history.

I think we touch on the issue of naming things.
Bears build nests in caves and men build
elaborate mansions, but at what point do we
ascribe the word "house" to the habitation? It's
just names. From that point of view, you are
both, I think, pretty much in agreement.

[Danny]
> If you want to talk about eating and drinking tea, Chinese people these days
> still eat tea, whether it is grated or whole leaves, from the tribal culture
> in Yunnan to the sophisticated drinkers along the Zhejiang. But these has
> nothing to do with Gongfu style.

[Michael]
No wonder I've been so jittery lately.

[Danny]
> In traditional Gongfu style there is one extra step that is no longer
> practiced nowadays: after the leaves were in the pot and the hot water
> poured in, a towel is used to cover the spout and lid of the pot, to prevent
> the fragrance from escaping. In no modern day gongfu style have I seen
> this, but I'm not going to dismiss it as un-gongfu. What the people in the
> past started and practised, people through the ages modify and adapt.

[Michael]
Truer words were never spoken, those last. Amusing to
see folks clinging to some absolute tradition that never
existed in the first place; that is, never went through a
stable unchanging period.

> [MarshalN]
> I am really skeptical of the claim that what we now call Gongfu tea
> style is a method that was practiced on any sort of large scale in the
> past in "China", which would include Greater China, etc. I tend to
> think that it is more of a locally/regionally focused method, along the
> SE coast of China extending up to Minbei, perhaps. From my
> grandfather's recollection tea was not prepared in anything like what
> we do now when he was a child in our ancestral home near Suzhou, and
> that certainly predates the Communist era. The tea they drink,
> typically refined green tea of light flavours, also does not lend
> itself well to what we do now. When you go further north, I think the
> tea drinking tastes change as well. Beijingers generally drank floral
> teas and green teas, and things like puerh were probably drunk by the
> Manchus with milk mixed in.

Barbarians!

> [Danny]
> You correctly pointed out that. Gongfu style is indeed a tea culture that
> was confined to the SE China in the old days, and later Taiwan and the Asia
> regions - however, you have to qualify what is Gongfu style, which in itself
> is a confusing term. People futher west, especially in the Sichuan region,
> used gaiwans, they have developed their own style which is nowadays accepted
> as Gaiwan Gongfu style. In Suzhou and along the Zhejiang region there was
> almost no Gongfu style on green tea, not that I know of, but you pointed out
> that there was, probably originating from Xu Cishu:

[Michael]
So, further evidence that the discussion's about little more
than the names of the forms. Where and when did Gung
Fu become Gung Fu? Pick your favorite place and your
favorite period, and you're in like Flynn.

more major snippage

> [MarshalN]
> ,,,there was a large number of various
> schools in how to make tea properly, and the differences among them are
> probably much more substantial than the mostly cosmetic differences we
> see now between different "schools". In this narrative, we have the
> author telling us to put the leaves into the water, and not the other
> way around. He also advocates the use of the water that we consider as
> wash to pour back into the tea to make the real infusion... also an
> interesting way to make tea that would be quite different than what we
> do today.

[Michael]
Among these schools, it might be asked, Can't
we all just get along? But alas....

> [Danny]
> Yes. but the point on "use of the water that we consider as wash to pour
> back into the tea to make the real infusion" is part of the recent
> development, old style Gongfu cha did not include this.

[Michael]
On a lower plane, when I steep a truly green style
Oolong from either Taiwan or Anxi, I often
drink the wash because in some varietals the first
fine essences are so quickly lost. No tradition here,
just me learning from my humble experience.

> [MarshalN]
> What we are seeing these days, and what we practice these days, is
> still largely the invention and formalization of one particular style
> of tea making. I'm sure that as we move along in the revival of tea,
> schools will splinter and different ways of making tea will surface.
> But I think it is a little too romantic to think that what we do now is
> in large part similar to how people a few hundred or even a thousand
> years ago drank tea throughout China.

[Michael]
But, isn't it fun to try to brew the tea as it was
brewed a thousand years ago, impossible as it
might be? It's a kind of entertainment to attempt
to replicate those methods.

yet more snippage

You both bring such extraordinary intelligence and
sensitivity to this discussion, I feel the need to
apologize for trampling around it, but nonetheless
here am I.

Michael

> In some ways, I think Chinese tea drinking is very practical -- it's
> whatever makes a good cup. There's no set "ceremony" and no protocol,
> as long as what you do makes a cup that you enjoy. Everything else is
> extra. And on that, we can probably all agree.
> MarshalN
> http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

And that is the precise reason why, although I
am enraptured by the stuff of Japanese tea,
Chinese tea is for me. It integrates the stuff,
the tea, and the company more congenially.
That's my take, and I agree with you.

Yesterday, I got my hot little hands on a
small qing brush jar of ceramic. It's crazed,
but not in that awful -- my opinion, only --
bold manner that screams "look at me!" The
crazing clearly took many decades to come
out in its quiet almost mottled way. You'll
see it one day. It holds small wooden tea
spoons and pointy wooden tea pokers now.

Michael

[Danny]
> By the way, while this has been extremely interesting to discuss
> interpretations of older texts on tea, I am afraid we might be spamming
> other people's mailboxes when such texts are, unfortunately, not
> available to them in any form
>
> Maybe we can talk about this over a cup of tea in Hong Kong.

Well, you're not spamming mine, although I'm gathering
a thousand questions for the next time I see you. Prepare!
Michael

[Lew]
> No, no, no! I promise to let you know when I'm bored.
>
>
:"P

But we are. To be continued in 2007 in Hongkong...

Danny

[Michael]
>
> Well, you're not spamming mine, although I'm gathering
> a thousand questions for the next time I see you. Prepare!
> Michael
>
The post was from MarshalN...see? Your eyes are blurry from trying to
decipher our threads...but, my time is all yours & yours, if you buy me a
coffee and a slice of cake at the Met I'll try to answer your thousand
questions, or make up the answers as I go along...haha!

Danny

>> [MarshalN]
>> I am really skeptical of the claim that what we now call Gongfu tea
>> style is a method that was practiced on any sort of large scale in the
>> past in "China", which would include Greater China, etc. I tend to
>> think that it is more of a locally/regionally focused method, along the
>> SE coast of China extending up to Minbei, perhaps. From my
>> grandfather's recollection tea was not prepared in anything like what
>> we do now when he was a child in our ancestral home near Suzhou, and
>> that certainly predates the Communist era. The tea they drink,
>> typically refined green tea of light flavours, also does not lend
>> itself well to what we do now. When you go further north, I think the
>> tea drinking tastes change as well. Beijingers generally drank floral
>> teas and green teas, and things like puerh were probably drunk by the
>> Manchus with milk mixed in.
>
[Michael]
> Barbarians!
>
>
Hey hey hey, whochacallin' barbies?...I'm from Fuzhou in Fujian, and
according to local records, we were the ones who created the best jasmine
infused green tea that the northerners paid our forefathers big bucks
for...duh...

Danny

....& I forgot to add, it was great fun sparring with you, MarshalN.

Danny, doing the Act V, last scene, on this post.

Reading all the comments above have increased my IQ by 10 points from
85. Thank you everyone for the discussion of history. I have nothing
to contribute except to say that it's not superior than the English,
the Mongol or the Indian ways. With each tea, I'm always finding
myself experimenting with several methods to get the best brew FOR MY
OWN TASTE. The equipment I use happen to be gaiwans and Yixings...so I
guess it passes as the Chinese gongfu method. If I continue on, the
term "gongfu" is just semantics. A Briton brewing his Earl Grey in a
large teapot because he doesn't like it brewed in Yixing, gaiwan,
pewter, gold and silver...is "gongfu", no?

Gongfu is a lot of work for sure...



samarkand wrote:
> ...& I forgot to add, it was great fun sparring with you, MarshalN.
>
> Danny, doing the Act V, last scene, on this post.

> >
> Hey hey hey, whochacallin' barbies?...I'm from Fuzhou in Fujian, and
> according to local records, we were the ones who created the best jasmine
> infused green tea that the northerners paid our forefathers big bucks
> for...duh...
>
> Danny

You know how it is -- everybody who's not your kind is a barbarian!

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

[Danny]
>> Hey hey hey, whochacallin' barbies?...I'm from Fuzhou in Fujian, and
>> according to local records, we were the ones who created the best jasmine
>> infused green tea that the northerners paid our forefathers big bucks
>> for...duh...
>>
>> Danny
>
[MarshalN]
> You know how it is -- everybody who's not your kind is a barbarian!
>
>
That's such a decadent chinese imperialistic notion! We have moved on, we
think everybody who not's from the city barbarians...


-exit stage left, pursued by a bear...

samarkand wrote:

> That's such a decadent chinese imperialistic notion! We have moved on, we
> think everybody who not's from the city barbarians...
>
>
> -exit stage left, pursued by a bear...

Actually, it's anybody who's not from Shanghai who's a barbarian

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 08:34:53 -0500, Dominic T. >
wrote:

>
> xDustinx wrote:
>> I tried to explain why I brew tea Gong Fu style to my Dad the other day
>> and I couldn't come up with a satisfactory explanation. I know from
>> first hand experience that Gong Fu is better than English style, but
>> it's difficult to explain to someone who doesn't really drink tea. I
>> know there are posters here who are extremely knowledgable, so I was
>> wondering what the various reasons are? The one that makes the most
>> sense to me at the moment is that changes within the tea are more
>> obvious when you brew with more leaf and less water. Brewing tea
>> English style, with less leaf and more water, makes these changes
>> considerably less obvious. What does everyone else think? Why is Gong
>> Fu better?
>
> Just my 2 leaves, but I tend to find that the complete freedom of the
> leaves allows them to fully unfurl and show themselves.

you may be an oyster with a pearl of wisdom

> This not only
> produces a better brew than in cramped confines, but it allows you to
> get a very up-close and personal view of the leaves and the aromas,
> instead of almost second-hand if it is further away in a dark cavelike
> teapot with just the liquid in your cup up close.
>
> There is a much more intimate feeling, it is more 1-on-1, and it
> affords you the chance to really experiment and compare notes and
> brewing since it is basically the same experience from one person to
> another... where teapots and other vessels have many variables and
> differences.
>
> and my favorite response to such questions... "'cuz it is!" (I was a
> bit of a holdout on the gaiwan for some time, until I really began to
> understand and appreciate it myself)
>
> - Dominic
>

On Wed, 29 Nov 2006 14:36:04 -0500, samarkand > wrote:

>
> "xDustinx" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
>> I tried to explain why I brew tea Gong Fu style to my Dad the other day
>> and I couldn't come up with a satisfactory explanation. I know from
>> first hand experience that Gong Fu is better than English style, but
>> it's difficult to explain to someone who doesn't really drink tea. I
>> know there are posters here who are extremely knowledgable, so I was
>> wondering what the various reasons are? The one that makes the most
>> sense to me at the moment is that changes within the tea are more
>> obvious when you brew with more leaf and less water. Brewing tea
>> English style, with less leaf and more water, makes these changes
>> considerably less obvious. What does everyone else think? Why is Gong
>> Fu better?
>>
>
> I agree with Michael, it isn't necessarily better than the English style.


> In fact I find it a boring chore to have to sit through a flowery
> display of
> exaggerated movements and crappy chinese music to get a sip of mediocre
> tea.
> These days, the term Gongfu style is more likely a set of elaborate
> rituals,
> then days of yore, when gongfu style was a group of old folks sitting
> round
> the table and preparing tea in a leisure unceremonious way. I missed
> those
> days of my childhood, hanging around old folks listening to their gossips
> and trading news from China, and yearning for a sip of tea.
>
> The best way to explain to your Dad, is to share with him the Moment
> preparing the tea. The focus is not on the preparation, but the sharing
> of
> the moment.


o that is just too goddam pretty

> Have fun.
>
> Danny
>
>

On Fri, 01 Dec 2006 10:36:10 -0500, samarkand > wrote:

> [Lew]
>> No, no, no! I promise to let you know when I'm bored.
>>
>>
> :"P
>
> But we are. To be continued in 2007 in Hongkong...
>
> Danny
>
>
graet it is a deal. more as I find out my schedule. (train in train out
and so on)

> Of course, the concept and the theory of tea brewing is still largely
> there -- after all, I think the Taiwanese were inspired precisely by
> the same texts that talk about this sort of thing. However, I think it
> would be a stretch to say that what we do now bears a close resemblence
> to what was done then.
>
> MarshalN


I actually went to a recreation of the Song tea ceremony by a Japanese
scholar of Chinese history here in Los Angeles. He used silver tea
implements that he re-created based on implements found at an
archaelogical dig at a Chinese buddhist temple (I forget which one).
He steamed and compressed his own tea into cakes. When it was time to
make the tea I seem to recall that he heated the cakes, then broke off
chunks (much like we do with puerh) and ground them in a mortar and
pestle into a fine powder. He then added the powder to a huge pot of
water (maybe a gallon), boiled the tea, then cooled it and added salt
and some spice (orange). He told us that the use of the salt and spice
ratio, and the timing of its addition, was just right to curb the
bitterness of the tea. He then served the tea he brewed to us (there
were 60 people in the crowd). It tasted like a wonderful, round,
living, flavorful cup of green tea, no hint of the salt or spices at
all. He felt that he had uncovered an extraodinary mystery. What
surprised me was how modern and delicious the tea tasted, like a very
finely brewed high-quality green, and it had a great energy to it that
well-brewed tea does. The amazing thing was that it tasted so good--as
if each cup was brewed in a gaiwan--and yet was brewed in such a large
quantity for so many people. My big-pot tea never tastes that good!