I broke an extremely tight tuocha apart a couple of months ago by
steaming it briefly, breaking it apart, and then redrying it. Then I
forgot about it. Now I am curious--I understand it will age faster
than compressed puer because it is looseleaf, but if I age it for a
year or two, will there be a significant drop in quality, or will it
taste similar to a slightly older aged compressed puer?

What if I break a cake into smaller pieces (of about 5-10g each) and
store them in a jar? Will that age the tea faster without fading the
quality?

Any ideas/experience in this area?

I cant answer your question , however I would like to aquire one of
these cakes to try myself , where is the best place to order one.

Hi Cha Bing,
what exactly are the best conditions for aging and which factors
accelerate fading ?
I can´t answer this question for Pu-Erhs, but when we´re talking about
aging tobaccos enemy #1 has a name: temperature [light[radiation]].
E.g. old virginia tobaccos age wonderfully, they get better and better
for tens of years as long as you store them at low temperatures,
preferably < 20°C [~70 F]. Above this threshold they start to change
to fast [accelarated chemical and biochemical reactions as well as
loss of volatiles], and if you would keep them open [they´re kept in
tins] they would loose their volatiles pretty quickly. However in
lower temps you can store uncut tobaccos unpacked for years without
negative effects. I recently rehydrated a pouch of tobacco from the
70s, that was bonedry, but apparently had dried over many years at low
temperatures [cellar ?]. After some careful rehumidification to render
it smokeable it delivered some sublime smoking experiences. I can
imagine that Pu-Erhs don´t behave that much different, but lack
experience in that field.

Best,
Karsten

The best way to age tea is wait it out. I can tell you from
experience my thirty year old teas taste more similar to the ones I
buy today than not. I think compressed puer maintains its taste
better than any other storage. So a given taste from years ago is not
some mysterious byproduct of bacterial change. Already any puer just
three years old is in demand because of lesser quality in the leaf of
today. You can easily change the taste of puer by wet storage or
steaming as a short cut but that isn't aging. Besides if shu is the
accelerated aging of sheng there is nothing to wait for. For whatever
reason I don't think loose shu taste like the compressed counterpart.
You may like the taste of the loose better if the compressed is too
much. You will find you like the taste from different factores but
this is recipe for now and in the future.

Jim

On Mar 14, 6:29 pm, "cha bing" > wrote:
> I broke an extremely tight tuocha apart a couple of months ago by
> steaming it briefly, breaking it apart, and then redrying it. Then I
> forgot about it. Now I am curious--I understand it will age faster
> than compressed puer because it is looseleaf, but if I age it for a
> year or two, will there be a significant drop in quality, or will it
> taste similar to a slightly older aged compressed puer?
>
> What if I break a cake into smaller pieces (of about 5-10g each) and
> store them in a jar? Will that age the tea faster without fading the
> quality?
>
> Any ideas/experience in this area?

writes:

> Hi Cha Bing,
> what exactly are the best conditions for aging and which factors
> accelerate fading ?
> I can´t answer this question for Pu-Erhs, but when we´re talking about
> aging tobaccos enemy #1 has a name: temperature [light[radiation]].
> E.g. old virginia tobaccos age wonderfully, they get better and better
> for tens of years as long as you store them at low temperatures,
> preferably < 20°C [~70 F]. Above this threshold they start to change
> to fast [accelarated chemical and biochemical reactions as well as
> loss of volatiles], and if you would keep them open [they´re kept in
> tins] they would loose their volatiles pretty quickly. However in
> lower temps you can store uncut tobaccos unpacked for years without
> negative effects. I recently rehydrated a pouch of tobacco from the
> 70s, that was bonedry, but apparently had dried over many years at low
> temperatures [cellar ?]. After some careful rehumidification to render
> it smokeable it delivered some sublime smoking experiences. I can
> imagine that Pu-Erhs don´t behave that much different, but lack
> experience in that field.

Are you aware of any scientific work on what exactly goes on in
tobacco aging?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
recent addition: Tao4 Se4

"Space Cowboy" > writes:

> The best way to age tea is wait it out. I can tell you from
> experience my thirty year old teas taste more similar to the ones I
> buy today than not. I think compressed puer maintains its taste
> better than any other storage. So a given taste from years ago is
> not some mysterious byproduct of bacterial change. Already any puer
> just three years old is in demand because of lesser quality in the
> leaf of today. You can easily change the taste of puer by wet
> storage or steaming as a short cut but that isn't aging. Besides if
> shu is the accelerated aging of sheng there is nothing to wait for.

That's a mighty big "if".

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Mar 14, 9:29 pm, "cha bing" > wrote:
> I broke an extremely tight tuocha apart a couple of months ago by
> steaming it briefly, breaking it apart, and then redrying it. Then I
> forgot about it. Now I am curious--I understand it will age faster
> than compressed puer because it is looseleaf, but if I age it for a
> year or two, will there be a significant drop in quality, or will it
> taste similar to a slightly older aged compressed puer?
>
> What if I break a cake into smaller pieces (of about 5-10g each) and
> store them in a jar? Will that age the tea faster without fading the
> quality?
>
> Any ideas/experience in this area?

You are sort of on new territory there as most people who steam, only
steam enough for short term consumption. The fear being that the steam
might halt any microbial activity that may have been taking place,
thus inhibiting proper aging.

As for loose aging faster than compressed, the collective wisdom as I
know it states that this is true, but only to an extent. The broken
bings and tuos will mellow faster than their compressed brethren, but
they will not reach the same depths (regardless of age) as they would
have had they been left compressed.

In my own personal experience, most methods designed to speed the
aging process will eventually take their toll somewhere.

As for fading, that is not normally a concern with pu-erh unless it is
exposed to far too much air, light, or temperature. This is one of the
great things about pu-erh, it can be stored for decades without
"fading". If left compressed, wrapped in its original wrapper, and
stored in an environment that is comfortable for humans (i.e. not too
hot, cold, humid, or dry), it will not fade. A notable exception to
this phenomenon is that serious collectors will often shrinkwrap cakes
once they reach about 30 years old or so. This is stop the loss of the
aromatics of the tea.

Mike
http://www.pu-erh.net

Lew,
it´s basically a combination of chemical and biochemical reactions.
A few years ago some guys came up with the idea of bacterial activity,
but so far there´s still no proof.
One thing is for sure, the more sugar a specific baccy contains, the
better > more complexity/dramatic taste related changes.
Also a few years ago some other guys drew their conclusions and came
up with a technique of what is now widely known as "tin or tobacco
baking". Take a fresh [read: edgy, maybe a little harsh or rough in
taste] tin of tobacco, put it in your oven at a temperature at or
below ~220F for some hours [depends on specific baccy and how much you
like to change
it], remove tin, leave it closed overnight to allow all vapors
[volatiles] to move back into your weed and bang. The changes can be
dramatic:less harshness, mellower, sweeter, pronounced flavors, better
smokeablity all in all a simply wonderful taste, albeit different from
that of a conventionally aged tobacco. Conventional aging still
produces more complexity, no wonder since apparently it simply
involves more reactions than simple baking, where maybe just a few
chemical reactions get accelerated [conversion of sugars].
In the end it all depends on how you like your tobacco to taste, same
applies to tea, huh ?
If you happen to enjoy your tea with artificial sweetener, some
dollops of coconut milk, and the whole mess served in a Martini glass
topped with a tiny paper umbrella, there you go. I prefer
traditionally aged baccy to the stoved version but that´s just silly
me.
Ever heard of anyone baking Pu-Erh cha to "age" it ? Maybe they
already do it in China, one way or the other, I wouldn´t be surprised.
If on the other hand in about one month from now the market gets
flooded with aged Pu-Erh, remember you read it on rfdt

Best,
Karsten

Sounds like tobacco smokers are discovering the joys of roasting their
weed. Tea drinkers have been doing it for centuries.

There's a guy in Taiwan who is a tea merchant, but is also famous for
roasting anything and everything. Tobbaco is one of the things he's
done before. Apparently, it makes it more smokable, as you've
discovered.

It might be worth it for some of these people to become more aware of
what tea drinkers do, mostly to oolongs.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

On Mar 16, 12:09 am, wrote:
> Lew,
> it´s basically a combination of chemical and biochemical reactions.
> A few years ago some guys came up with the idea of bacterial activity,
> but so far there´s still no proof.
> One thing is for sure, the more sugar a specific baccy contains, the
> better > more complexity/dramatic taste related changes.
> Also a few years ago some other guys drew their conclusions and came
> up with a technique of what is now widely known as "tin or tobacco
> baking". Take a fresh [read: edgy, maybe a little harsh or rough in
> taste] tin of tobacco, put it in your oven at a temperature at or
> below ~220F for some hours [depends on specific baccy and how much you
> like to change
> it], remove tin, leave it closed overnight to allow all vapors
> [volatiles] to move back into your weed and bang. The changes can be
> dramatic:less harshness, mellower, sweeter, pronounced flavors, better
> smokeablity all in all a simply wonderful taste, albeit different from
> that of a conventionally aged tobacco. Conventional aging still
> produces more complexity, no wonder since apparently it simply
> involves more reactions than simple baking, where maybe just a few
> chemical reactions get accelerated [conversion of sugars].
> In the end it all depends on how you like your tobacco to taste, same
> applies to tea, huh ?
> If you happen to enjoy your tea with artificial sweetener, some
> dollops of coconut milk, and the whole mess served in a Martini glass
> topped with a tiny paper umbrella, there you go. I prefer
> traditionally aged baccy to the stoved version but that´s just silly
> me.
> Ever heard of anyone baking Pu-Erh cha to "age" it ? Maybe they
> already do it in China, one way or the other, I wouldn´t be surprised.
> If on the other hand in about one month from now the market gets
> flooded with aged Pu-Erh, remember you read it on rfdt
>
> Best,
> Karsten

"MarshalN" > writes:

> Sounds like tobacco smokers are discovering the joys of roasting their
> weed. Tea drinkers have been doing it for centuries.
>
> There's a guy in Taiwan who is a tea merchant, but is also famous for
> roasting anything and everything. Tobbaco is one of the things he's
> done before. Apparently, it makes it more smokable, as you've
> discovered.

He wouldn't be the guy behind Fu Cha Ju (sometimes transliterated Fo
Cha Ji), would he? Because I've heard that FCJ's 2003 cooked
Wuliangshan bingcha, which I love though not everyone does, was
slow-baked.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Mar 16, 4:20 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> "MarshalN" > writes:
> > Sounds like tobacco smokers are discovering the joys of roasting their
> > weed. Tea drinkers have been doing it for centuries.
>
> > There's a guy in Taiwan who is a tea merchant, but is also famous for
> > roasting anything and everything. Tobbaco is one of the things he's
> > done before. Apparently, it makes it more smokable, as you've
> > discovered.
>
> He wouldn't be the guy behind Fu Cha Ju (sometimes transliterated Fo
> Cha Ji), would he? Because I've heard that FCJ's 2003 cooked
> Wuliangshan bingcha, which I love though not everyone does, was
> slow-baked.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

He would be.

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

Mr Huang (Fo Cha Ju / Jing Mei Tang) is not the only person who
skilled in slow roasting everything, there are others, such as
(another!) Mr Huang of Zhu Li Guan, and the old teashop Wang De
Chuan...though Mr Huang of Fo Cha Ju may be the one who publishes most
of his findings.

Danny

On Mar 16, 5:34 am, wrote:
> Mr Huang (Fo Cha Ju / Jing Mei Tang) is not the only person who
> skilled in slow roasting everything, there are others, such as
> (another!) Mr Huang of Zhu Li Guan, and the old teashop Wang De
> Chuan...though Mr Huang of Fo Cha Ju may be the one who publishes most
> of his findings.
>
> Danny

Of course, but he's the one who talks about it the most often, I
think. There are lots of people out there who are quite skilled in
this sort of thing, with varying degrees of success.

Either way though, it might be something to be learned for the tobacco
toasting folks out there

MarshalN
http://www.xanga.com/MarshalN

Interesting, thanks. I don't have much of the tuo cha left (my
original intent was to break it apart so I could drink it soon, but I
became distracted with other teas), but now I am really curious to see
what happens if I leave it for a while.

And I have a strange urge to start smoking. I don't know if that is a
good thing or not. Interestingly, if I am reading correctly, tobacco
is aged in tins, not compressed. They don't press it into cakes, do
they? Does a densely rolled cigar age better than loose tobacco?

On Mar 16, 6:01 am, "MarshalN" > wrote:
> On Mar 16, 5:34 am, wrote:
>
> > Mr Huang (Fo Cha Ju / Jing Mei Tang) is not the only person who
> > skilled in slow roasting everything, there are others, such as
> > (another!) Mr Huang of Zhu Li Guan, and the old teashop Wang De
> > Chuan...though Mr Huang of Fo Cha Ju may be the one who publishes most
> > of his findings.
>
> > Danny
>
> Of course, but he's the one who talks about it the most often, I
> think. There are lots of people out there who are quite skilled in
> this sort of thing, with varying degrees of success.
>

Thanks for restating my comment...
:")

Mr Huang talks about it most often, yet not many understand the
theories behind his method. He asked me once if I understood what he
wrote and spoke about, and I told him less than 10%. Visit me, he
replied, and you'll understand another 20%...all in all, he is a very
entertaining person who is talks about almost anything under the sun.

Danny

On Mar 16, 8:14 am, "cha bing" > wrote:

> And I have a strange urge to start smoking. I don't know if that is a
> good thing or not. Interestingly, if I am reading correctly, tobacco
> is aged in tins, not compressed. They don't press it into cakes, do
> they? Does a densely rolled cigar age better than loose tobacco?

Oh my. Can that be good? Some friends have this theory: one gets hook
on pu'er as an alternative to smoking; but at the teashops we visit, I
found on several occasions that when the teashop owner brews a pu'er,
the ashtray gets filled up quicker...

Danny

On Mar 15, 9:29 am, "cha bing" > wrote:
> I broke an extremely tight tuocha apart a couple of months ago by
> steaming it briefly, breaking it apart, and then redrying it. Then I
> forgot about it. Now I am curious--I understand it will age faster
> than compressed puer because it is looseleaf, but if I age it for a
> year or two, will there be a significant drop in quality, or will it
> taste similar to a slightly older aged compressed puer?
>
> What if I break a cake into smaller pieces (of about 5-10g each) and
> store them in a jar? Will that age the tea faster without fading the
> quality?
>
> Any ideas/experience in this area?

Sorry forgot about the initial question...

Recap:
1. You steamed the tuocha to loosen it.
2. You re-dried the tuocha.

I don't suggest this as a method of loosening the tuocha, some people
believe that if you don't control the temperature correctly you might
just end up with a pile of spent leaves that is basically green tea-
ish, and these would not age well, if not at all. Of the various
methods of processing green tea, the steam method is one that usually
doesn't allow the tea to age or change in its flavour (for the
better). If you keep a Longjing which is panfried, and a gyokuro which
is steamed processed, for a year, you'll find that while the Longjing
is still drinkable, the gyokuro would taste quite nasty.

How one re-dries the tea is also a contributing factor to the
condition of the tea later. From what I've read on other forums, the
end product of tea should not undergo sun-drying, for reasons unclear
it affects the taste of the tea and make it bland. Low heat baking
might alter it into a different tea, and leaving it to air-dried but
not dry it thoroughly.

You also asked if the tea broken into smaller pieces and kept in a jar
would age faster without fading the quality...

That is an interesting question. I'll let you know in 5 years'
time...

Conventional wisdom lays down several guidelines on this:

1. Break the cake into smaller pieces only if you intend to drink
them in the near future
2. For long term investment, it is better to keep the cake as intact
as possible
3. If the pu'er is new, a zisha clay jar would be ideal for it - to
allow it to breathe and age
4. If the pu'er is old (I wonder how old is old), a porcelain jar is
better - to slow down its ageing process

I think there are more guidelines, please feel free to add...

Danny

On Mar 15, 8:14 pm, "cha bing" > wrote:
> Interesting, thanks. I don't have much of the tuo cha left (my
> original intent was to break it apart so I could drink it soon, but I
> became distracted with other teas), but now I am really curious to see
> what happens if I leave it for a while.
>
> And I have a strange urge to start smoking. I don't know if that is a
> good thing or not. Interestingly, if I am reading correctly, tobacco
> is aged in tins, not compressed. They don't press it into cakes, do
> they? Does a densely rolled cigar age better than loose tobacco?

Tobaccos are pressed into cakes, except in tobacco terminology these
are called "plugs". They sometimes leave tobaccos compressed for
months, which alters the taste profile. When you slice these aged plug
into thin (2-4mm thick) pieces, they are called "flakes". Tobaccos
have also long been baked, except in the tobacco jargon it's "stoved".
Many of the old English mixes have heavily stoved leaves.

While I'm not sure if rolled cigars age better than loose tobacco, I
can definitely say that there is nothing like good Virginia flake.
They smell like so good...like fig newtons. A good pipe tea IMHO is a
strong rosey Indian black, like assam, though you can also do Lapsang
Souchong.