> easier option - send the samples to me - i will have them tested at
> 1/10th the price, i guess.

Ankit, I will be more than happy to send it to you, if you don't mind
the hassle.

What kinds of chemicals do you screen for? I have in my mind lead,
fluoride, aluminun (not sure why) and pesticides.

We can potentially collate the information in one big database to
share the results between the tea community.

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

On Sep 20, 3:12 am, juliantai > wrote:
> > easier option - send the samples to me - i will have them tested at
> > 1/10th the price, i guess.
>
> Ankit, I will be more than happy to send it to you, if you don't mind
> the hassle.
>
> What kinds of chemicals do you screen for? I have in my mind lead,
> fluoride, aluminun (not sure why) and pesticides.
>
> We can potentially collate the information in one big database to
> share the results between the tea community.
>
> Julianhttp://www.amazing-green-tea.com

hi julian,

normally we do

moisture content
crude fibre
water extract
ash content
tannic acid
stem content
water soluble alkalinity
water soluble ash
caffeeine content
acid insoluble ash
any essence or additional colors
any foreign matter
mettalic matter
tea used before
reducing polyphenols
yeast and mould
E.coli
coliform
any pollution fungi
any pollution of mushrooms
pesticide residue of
diazinon
melathion
fenamiphos
propargite
heavy metals
lead
copper
arsenic
nickel

we can also do anything additional you want.

expenses on us - dont bother - feel free to send the samples - we can
share the results with everyone.. people can know what they are
drinking.....

On Sep 20, 5:10 am, Ankit Lochan > wrote:
> On Sep 20, 3:12 am, juliantai > wrote:
>
> > > easier option - send the samples to me - i will have them tested at
> > > 1/10th the price, i guess.
>
> > Ankit, I will be more than happy to send it to you, if you don't mind
> > the hassle.
>
> > What kinds of chemicals do you screen for? I have in my mind lead,
> > fluoride, aluminun (not sure why) and pesticides.
>
> > We can potentially collate the information in one big database to
> > share the results between the tea community.
>
> > Julianhttp://www.amazing-green-tea.com
>
> hi julian,
>
> normally we do
>
> moisture content
> crude fibre
> water extract
> ash content
> tannic acid
> stem content
> water soluble alkalinity
> water soluble ash
> caffeeine content
> acid insoluble ash
> any essence or additional colors
> any foreign matter
> mettalic matter
> tea used before
> reducing polyphenols
> yeast and mould
> E.coli
> coliform
> any pollution fungi
> any pollution of mushrooms
> pesticide residue of
> diazinon
> melathion
> fenamiphos
> propargite
> heavy metals
> lead
> copper
> arsenic
> nickel
>
> we can also do anything additional you want.
>
> expenses on us - dont bother - feel free to send the samples - we can
> share the results with everyone.. people can know what they are
> drinking.....

Ankit,

How much sample do you need to analyze the checimal make up of a tea?
I am tempted to have some of the older pu'er analyzed...stuff from the
1950's onwards. Would be interesting to find out what they contain.

Thanks.

Phyll

Phyll > writes:

> On Sep 20, 5:10 am, Ankit Lochan > wrote:
> > [...lots of things he'll test for...]
> > we can also do anything additional you want.
> >
> > expenses on us - dont bother - feel free to send the samples - we can
> > share the results with everyone.. people can know what they are
> > drinking.....
>
> Ankit,
>
> How much sample do you need to analyze the checimal make up of a tea?
> I am tempted to have some of the older pu'er analyzed...stuff from the
> 1950's onwards. Would be interesting to find out what they contain.

Phyll, it's noble of you to volunteer to hand over some precious '50s
Pu'er. But, unless you're rich enough to drink that stuff often,
wouldn't it make more sense to test some everyday teas? I mean, this
is about health, no?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html
recently updated: Fenghuang Dancong

Ankit

It is really too kind of you. I suggest you charge some fees, i don't
really want to see you inundated with requests and taking too much of
your time.

Your list is very comprehensive. I suppose your heavymetal will
include fluoride? A lot of my visitors are interested in this
contaminant.

I will be happy to ship a green tea to you, and another oolong tea
that I am considering working with later this year.

How much sample do you need? I will happy to email to get the details
later this year (after the October oolong tea harvest).

I am really excited - putting these great tasting teas to an objective
test! Can pollutants and high grades exist hand in hand? I am
intrigued!

As a special thank you, I will also send you some secret presents.

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

On Sep 20, 8:10 am, Ankit Lochan > wrote:
> On Sep 20, 3:12 am, juliantai > wrote:
>
> > > easier option - send the samples to me - i will have them tested at
> > > 1/10th the price, i guess.
>
> > Ankit, I will be more than happy to send it to you, if you don't mind
> > the hassle.
>
> > What kinds of chemicals do you screen for? I have in my mind lead,
> > fluoride, aluminun (not sure why) and pesticides.
>
> > We can potentially collate the information in one big database to
> > share the results between the tea community.
>
> > Julianhttp://www.amazing-green-tea.com
>
> hi julian,
>
> normally we do
>
> moisture content
> crude fibre
> water extract
> ash content
> tannic acid
> stem content
> water soluble alkalinity
> water soluble ash
> caffeeine content
> acid insoluble ash
> any essence or additional colors
> any foreign matter
> mettalic matter
> tea used before
> reducing polyphenols
> yeast and mould
> E.coli
> coliform
> any pollution fungi
> any pollution of mushrooms
> pesticide residue of
> diazinon
> melathion
> fenamiphos
> propargite
> heavy metals
> lead
> copper
> arsenic
> nickel
>
> we can also do anything additional you want.
>
> expenses on us - dont bother - feel free to send the samples - we can
> share the results with everyone.. people can know what they are
> drinking.....

Ankit,
I would also like to have some tea tested. Every year I get a few
pounds of high mountain oolong from Taiwan. I agree that you should
pass through your costs for this though. I'd hate for you to have to
absorb that. You might be inundated with teas! Also do you test for
DDT?
Bob

On Sep 21, 12:42 am, juliantai > wrote:
> Ankit
> Your list is very comprehensive. I suppose your heavymetal will
> include fluoride? A lot of my visitors are interested in this
> contaminant.

Let's retain a sense of balance here - fluoride is naturally present
in tea and is not a contaminant (neither is it a heavy metal).

>
> I am really excited - putting these great tasting teas to an objective
> test! Can pollutants and high grades exist hand in hand? I am
> intrigued!

Of the 30 items Ankit Lochan lists for analysis it would be impossible
(in the real world) to have zero presence for at least 29 of them -
then at what positive level of presence do you define 'pollution'?
And is your level the same as my level?

Nigel at Teacraft

>> moisture content
>> crude fibre
>> water extract
>> ash content
>> tannic acid
>> stem content
>> water soluble alkalinity
>> water soluble ash
>> caffeeine content
>> acid insoluble ash
>> any essence or additional colors
>> any foreign matter
>> mettalic matter
>> tea used before
>> reducing polyphenols
>> yeast and mould
>> E.coli
>> coliform
>> any pollution fungi
>> any pollution of mushrooms

Okay, all of the above can be done with fairly simple kitchen-grade
equipment. It's mostly microscopic examination, an ash burn test,
some cultures, and simple titration for the polyphenyls, tannic acid,
pH, and caffine.


>> pesticide residue of
>> diazinon
>> melathion
>> fenamiphos
>> propargite

Now, these are the hard ones. My question is whether you are doing
these by titration, or by HPLC. If you have an HPLC apparatus, you can
do a huge variety of other screens for things like DDT and just about
any other substance if you know to look for it.

The HPLC trace also is very interesting as a qualitative indication that
can help show contamination... when you see a very narrow spike it's time
to find out what it is.

>> heavy metals
>> lead
>> copper
>> arsenic
>> nickel

All of these are also easy to do by titration, although if you have an
HPLC machine you can avoid the labour.

There are also some other lighter metals that can get concentrated
by plants, which are worth looking at. (Again, if you have an HPLC rig
it's easy to do lots of tests on one sample with no additional labour,
so there is motivation to do so).

Many of the larger whiskey distilleries are now using chromatography
systems in order to get a better handle on batch-to-batch variations,
and have done some research into some of the more significant flavour
constitutents of whiskey. It would be very impressive to see some
of the tea blending folks doing that.
--scott


--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

> Phyll, it's noble of you to volunteer to hand over some precious '50s
> Pu'er. But, unless you're rich enough to drink that stuff often,
> wouldn't it make more sense to test some everyday teas? I mean, this
> is about health, no?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> recently updated: Fenghuang Dancong

Good point. It was an academic curiosity on my part. I am curious to
find out if DDT or other banned substance is in older teas, which
command high prices for being collectible. I don't have much of old
teas, but if it takes a few milligrams (like in the CSI), then it's
not prohibitive.

Phyll

> Of the 30 items Ankit Lochan lists for analysis it would be impossible
> (in the real world) to have zero presence for at least 29 of them -
> then at what positive level of presence do you define 'pollution'?
> And is your level the same as my level?
>
> Nigel at Teacraft

Wouldn't the test show what a the upper limit is in ppm or other unit
measurement? Anything above a certain threshold is a red flag...like
my cholesterol level.

Phyll

I'd be really interested to see a translation (non babelfish / google
translator translation) of this thread on San Zui:
http://sanzui.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=76279
if anyone has the time / inclination.

w

> Xiamen is a festering cesspool under a tourist-friendly guise; Fuzhou
> is just as filthy.

Xiamen is actually a very pretty city, almost on par with Hong Kong;
except Hong Kong is way more crowded than Xiamen. But yeah, the air in
Fuzhou is pretty darn dirty. I always have a cough every time I go
there. Near Fuzhou, there is a town called Fuding, where they produce
white tea. Fuzhou has a lot of good eats there. Really delicious
stuff. Xiamen has some good food too. Lots of seafood - but probably
all polluted. Anyway, it tastes good.

> I would be willing to bet all the money in my savings account, which
> ain't much, folks, that any random sample of tea from Taizhong (where
> most wulong is produced in Taiwan), a relatively mountainous, clean
> place, would have a better sanitary rating than ANY TEA, INCLUDING THE
> HIGHEST GRADE, from Fujian AnXi (where Tieguan, the most famous tea
> from Fujian) is produced. I'd also be willing to bet that the Rock
> teas from WuYi Mountain would have the same rating of pollution as in
> Anxi.

Well, Anxi, comparatively speaking is pretty filthy. You can't argue
that. That's the town proper - is pretty dirty and grimy and stinky.
The food there is not so great either. But Tieguanyin is also grown in
the smaller towns in the mountains around there. So it would probably
be cleaner than the stuff that they grow nearest the town.

But Wuyi is clean everywhere - the town is clean, the mountains are
clean, the roadsides are clean. Everywhere is very clean. Much cleaner
than Anxi. So I bet teas from Wuyi are much cleaner than those from
Anxi. But like I said, pollution can travel on the wind and rain. What
goes up in one place may not necessarily pollute in the same area. And
I bet a lot of pollution from Mainland China gets blown over to
Taiwan. They're just too close in proximity to not be affected.

On Sep 21, 2:30 am, Phyll > wrote:
> On Sep 20, 5:10 am, Ankit Lochan > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 20, 3:12 am, juliantai > wrote:
>
> > > > easier option - send the samples to me - i will have them tested at
> > > > 1/10th the price, i guess.
>
> > > Ankit, I will be more than happy to send it to you, if you don't mind
> > > the hassle.
>
> > > What kinds of chemicals do you screen for? I have in my mind lead,
> > > fluoride, aluminun (not sure why) and pesticides.
>
> > > We can potentially collate the information in one big database to
> > > share the results between the tea community.
>
> > > Julianhttp://www.amazing-green-tea.com
>
> > hi julian,
>
> > normally we do
>
> > moisture content
> > crude fibre
> > water extract
> > ash content
> > tannic acid
> > stem content
> > water soluble alkalinity
> > water soluble ash
> > caffeeine content
> > acid insoluble ash
> > any essence or additional colors
> > any foreign matter
> > mettalic matter
> > tea used before
> > reducing polyphenols
> > yeast and mould
> > E.coli
> > coliform
> > any pollution fungi
> > any pollution of mushrooms
> > pesticide residue of
> > diazinon
> > melathion
> > fenamiphos
> > propargite
> > heavy metals
> > lead
> > copper
> > arsenic
> > nickel
>
> > we can also do anything additional you want.
>
> > expenses on us - dont bother - feel free to send the samples - we can
> > share the results with everyone.. people can know what they are
> > drinking.....
>
> Ankit,
>
> How much sample do you need to analyze the checimal make up of a tea?
> I am tempted to have some of the older pu'er analyzed...stuff from the
> 1950's onwards. Would be interesting to find out what they contain.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Phyll- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

hi phyll,

for the tests to be performed the lab requires at least 250g sample..

ankit

On Sep 21, 2:59 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Phyll > writes:
> > On Sep 20, 5:10 am, Ankit Lochan > wrote:
> > > [...lots of things he'll test for...]
> > > we can also do anything additional you want.
>
> > > expenses on us - dont bother - feel free to send the samples - we can
> > > share the results with everyone.. people can know what they are
> > > drinking.....
>
> > Ankit,
>
> > How much sample do you need to analyze the checimal make up of a tea?
> > I am tempted to have some of the older pu'er analyzed...stuff from the
> > 1950's onwards. Would be interesting to find out what they contain.
>
> Phyll, it's noble of you to volunteer to hand over some precious '50s
> Pu'er. But, unless you're rich enough to drink that stuff often,
> wouldn't it make more sense to test some everyday teas? I mean, this
> is about health, no?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> recently updated: Fenghuang Dancong

such expensive and rare puerhs - i think phyll needs to think it
over again as the quantity required is really high...

On Sep 21, 4:42 am, juliantai > wrote:
> Ankit
>
> It is really too kind of you. I suggest you charge some fees, i don't
> really want to see you inundated with requests and taking too much of
> your time.
>
> Your list is very comprehensive. I suppose your heavymetal will
> include fluoride? A lot of my visitors are interested in this
> contaminant.
>
> I will be happy to ship a green tea to you, and another oolong tea
> that I am considering working with later this year.
>
> How much sample do you need? I will happy to email to get the details
> later this year (after the October oolong tea harvest).
>
> I am really excited - putting these great tasting teas to an objective
> test! Can pollutants and high grades exist hand in hand? I am
> intrigued!
>
> As a special thank you, I will also send you some secret presents.
>
> Julianhttp://www.amazing-green-tea.com

hi julian,

i am sorry for not replying earlier - i was in kolkata for some imp.
meetings - just got back today..

we can include fluoride.. not a problem..

dont worry about the charges - we can talk on that later once the
tests are done.

minimum quantity of 250g is needed for us to perform all the required
tests.

thanks you for the secret presents - you are really very kind -
appreciated with folded hands..

On Sep 21, 5:57 am, wrote:
> On Sep 20, 8:10 am, Ankit Lochan > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sep 20, 3:12 am, juliantai > wrote:
>
> > > > easier option - send the samples to me - i will have them tested at
> > > > 1/10th the price, i guess.
>
> > > Ankit, I will be more than happy to send it to you, if you don't mind
> > > the hassle.
>
> > > What kinds of chemicals do you screen for? I have in my mind lead,
> > > fluoride, aluminun (not sure why) and pesticides.
>
> > > We can potentially collate the information in one big database to
> > > share the results between the tea community.
>
> > > Julianhttp://www.amazing-green-tea.com
>
> > hi julian,
>
> > normally we do
>
> > moisture content
> > crude fibre
> > water extract
> > ash content
> > tannic acid
> > stem content
> > water soluble alkalinity
> > water soluble ash
> > caffeeine content
> > acid insoluble ash
> > any essence or additional colors
> > any foreign matter
> > mettalic matter
> > tea used before
> > reducing polyphenols
> > yeast and mould
> > E.coli
> > coliform
> > any pollution fungi
> > any pollution of mushrooms
> > pesticide residue of
> > diazinon
> > melathion
> > fenamiphos
> > propargite
> > heavy metals
> > lead
> > copper
> > arsenic
> > nickel
>
> > we can also do anything additional you want.
>
> > expenses on us - dont bother - feel free to send the samples - we can
> > share the results with everyone.. people can know what they are
> > drinking.....
>
> Ankit,
> I would also like to have some tea tested. Every year I get a few
> pounds of high mountain oolong from Taiwan. I agree that you should
> pass through your costs for this though. I'd hate for you to have to
> absorb that. You might be inundated with teas! Also do you test for
> DDT?
> Bob- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

please feel free to send samples of the teas you want us to organise
tests off.

we can include tests for DDT - not a problem..

do not worry on the charges - we can talk of that later once the work
is done..

regards

On Sep 21, 1:48 pm, Nigel > wrote:
> On Sep 21, 12:42 am, juliantai > wrote:
>
> > Ankit
> > Your list is very comprehensive. I suppose your heavymetal will
> > include fluoride? A lot of my visitors are interested in this
> > contaminant.
>
> Let's retain a sense of balance here - fluoride is naturally present
> in tea and is not a contaminant (neither is it a heavy metal).
>
>
>
> > I am really excited - putting these great tasting teas to an objective
> > test! Can pollutants and high grades exist hand in hand? I am
> > intrigued!
>
> Of the 30 items Ankit Lochan lists for analysis it would be impossible
> (in the real world) to have zero presence for at least 29 of them -
> then at what positive level of presence do you define 'pollution'?
> And is your level the same as my level?
>
> Nigel at Teacraft

EU norms allow a certain % - normally teas are within that range.. if
that is the case we can consider the tea fit... my opinion - i think
this can be done - please correct me if i am wrong.

regards

> But Wuyi is clean everywhere - the town is clean, the mountains are
> clean, the roadsides are clean. Everywhere is very clean. Much cleaner
> than Anxi. So I bet teas from Wuyi are much cleaner than those from
> Anxi. But like I said, pollution can travel on the wind and rain. What
> goes up in one place may not necessarily pollute in the same area. And
> I bet a lot of pollution from Mainland China gets blown over to
> Taiwan. They're just too close in proximity to not be affected.

I'm not so much talking about the pollution factor; I'm talking more
about the pesticides that are used. The environmental pollution is
just something we have to deal with but the man-made pollution that
the farmers create in the form of chemicals applied directly to the
teas to up their stock is more worrisome. The latter can and should
be controlled but it is not; it will never be.

It was a merchant, a local of XiPing (one of the big producers of TGY
besides GanDe) that told me to stop drinking his tea and Wulong from
Fujian.

Taiwan has and does follow standards related to pesticides/
insecticides with their teas, all exports, and even domestic goods.
China does not.

So, who you more willing to believe even without getting into stats?
China or Taiwan? I'm with the latter.

Phyll > wrote:
>> Of the 30 items Ankit Lochan lists for analysis it would be impossible
>> (in the real world) to have zero presence for at least 29 of them -
>> then at what positive level of presence do you define 'pollution'?
>> And is your level the same as my level?
>
>Wouldn't the test show what a the upper limit is in ppm or other unit
>measurement? Anything above a certain threshold is a red flag...like
>my cholesterol level.

Right, but the point is where that threshold is set. Where I think it
should be set may not be the same place where you care to set it.

In some cases, the tests don't tell everything. For example, if you do
a typical test for a heavy metal, it cannot distinguish between soluble
salts which are very bad, and insoluble salts which are much less harmful.
So where you decide to put the threshold requires making some assumptions
about the composition in the first place.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

> Oh, the pollution issues are still there. But the farming practices are
> better-regulated at least.

There's another point I should mention. Many Taiwanese businesspeople
come to Fujian and invest in Fujian. So they might set up tea farms
and grow Taiwan tea - right in Fujian. The same for Fujian tea farmers
and entrepreneurs - they will find some suitable and cheap land, and
start tea cultivation. So the so-called Taiwan tea you drink may not
even be from Taiwan.


There's an article he
http://www.teafromtaiwan.com/Taiwan_...n_in_China.htm

> It was a merchant, a local of XiPing (one of the big producers of TGY
> besides GanDe) that told me to stop drinking his tea and Wulong from
> Fujian.

Yeah, stop drinking his tea and any tea from Fujian. Let all the
Fujian people buy the tea. There are so many people in Fujian with
money - and they all drink tea; if one consumer stops buying - no one
cares. The demand is so darn huge in Mainland China anyway.

I think that's the problem right there. Chinese tea producers won't
change much until the mass of Chinese consumers themselves start
demanding pesticide-residue free tea.

> You can see Taiwan from Xiamen? Really? I've spent some time in
> Xiamen, and I could see Jinmen, which is administered by Taiwan and
> produces really good cutlery but no tea.

Yeah, but technically, that is still Taiwan, isn't it?

> The closest point to Taiwan, which I believe is the Gaoshan area near
> Fuzhou, is about 80 miles.

Well, Lianjiang county is a county near Fuzhou that is partly
controlled by Mainland China, and partly controlled by the ROC. The
outlying islands anyway, are controlled by the ROC, and that's a tea
producing area. In that area, they all speak Fuzhou dialect. It's only
about 19 Km to the mainland.

> Yeah, stop drinking his tea and any tea from Fujian. Let all the
> Fujian people buy the tea. There are so many people in Fujian with
> money - and they all drink tea; if one consumer stops buying - no one
> cares. The demand is so darn huge in Mainland China anyway.

Already done. Also, most people from here don't drink tea from Fujian
anymore either. Most of their big revenue comes from illegal
smuggling anyway; giving a few million people health problems because
of their filthy tea is the least of their worries. Sad to say.

> I think that's the problem right there. Chinese tea producers won't
> change much until the mass of Chinese consumers themselves start
> demanding pesticide-residue free tea.

Won't happen. Most Chinese are relatively ignorant that this is even
a problem and the Chinese media is making sure that it doesn't look
too serious. They are out to make SARS look like the common cold.

Damn, I hate being so negative. What's wrong with me?

> There's another point I should mention. Many Taiwanese businesspeople
> come to Fujian and invest in Fujian. So they might set up tea farms
> and grow Taiwan tea - right in Fujian. The same for Fujian tea farmers
> and entrepreneurs - they will find some suitable and cheap land, and
> start tea cultivation. So the so-called Taiwan tea you drink may not
> even be from Taiwan.


Also an excellent point. It's why I only buy from sources IN TAIWAN
from Taiwanese people that are into the tea trade. Mainland "GaoShan"
tea is just as filthy as TieGuanYin and you can taste it.

I wish I could invite ya'll down to my house in Dongguan to have a
blind tasting: some top grade TGY vs. some supermarket grade GaoShan
Tea from Taiwan. Your jaws would drop.

Phyll wrote:
> I am curious to
> find out if DDT or other banned substance is in older teas, which
> command high prices for being collectible.

Good news is that DDT and many other controlled pesticides aren't
actually particularly bad for people in applied amounts. (I'm not sure
that there is even a single example of someone dying from ingesting
grams of the stuff, which happened not infrequently.) DDT was banned
because - being fat-soluble and metabolized only very slowly - it
concentrates up the food chain. So top-predator birds had problems with
egg shell development. We'd have to eat the cats that fed on the mice
that ate the beetles that ate the Pu-erh weevils...

I'm not a medic or biologist, but my impression is that many of the
really nasty pesticides like cholinesterase inhibitors have high acute
toxicity (e.g. to field workers) but very little chronic risk in lower
doses. Kind of the opposite of heavy-metal poisoning, like recent lead
problems. FWIW, I don't worry about it, and I do think a lot about food
safety.

-DM

> there. Near Fuzhou, there is a town called Fuding, where they produce
> white tea. Fuzhou has a lot of good eats there. Really delicious
> stuff. Xiamen has some good food too. Lots of seafood - but probably
> all polluted. Anyway, it tastes good.

Niisonge, I am glad you find something nice to say about Fuzhou. My
paternel grandparents and distant relatives are from that region. I
have never visited the city itself, as where were from more distant
Fuzhou villages.

Since you mention food, could you please tell me what you find nice
about it? My grandmother was a good cook, but ever since she passed
away, I solely missed Fuzhou cooking. As a boy, she never bothered
trained me in the art of cookery.


> The food there is not so great either. But Tieguanyin is also grown in
> the smaller towns in the mountains around there. So it would probably
> be cleaner than the stuff that they grow nearest the town.

Agree.

I think in fairness to Anxi, you really have to be talking about the
mountainous villages of Xiping, Xianghe and Gande, where the authentic
Tieguanyin are grown.

Could you share with us your opinions on how clean and dirty these
villages are?

I will be very keen to have their teas tested to remove any doubts.

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

> Good news is that DDT and many other controlled pesticides aren't
> actually particularly bad for people in applied amounts. (I'm not sure
> that there is even a single example of someone dying from ingesting
> grams of the stuff, which happened not infrequently.) DDT was banned
> because - being fat-soluble and metabolized only very slowly - it
> concentrates up the food chain. So top-predator birds had problems with
> egg shell development. We'd have to eat the cats that fed on the mice
> that ate the beetles that ate the Pu-erh weevils...
>
> I'm not a medic or biologist, but my impression is that many of the
> really nasty pesticides like cholinesterase inhibitors have high acute
> toxicity (e.g. to field workers) but very little chronic risk in lower
> doses. Kind of the opposite of heavy-metal poisoning, like recent lead
> problems. FWIW, I don't worry about it, and I do think a lot about food
> safety.
>
> -DM

Dogma/Mynight

I am with Dogma with this one. I think environmental pollution (road
traffic, air, water, lead, fluoride etc) are a more serious threat
than pesticides itself.

Tea garden situated in high attitude sloping land tend to use little
pesticide anyway. Usually these best parts of tea garden are used to
make the really high grades, like the better tasting Tieguanyin
Wangs.The price is usually a reflection of the location of the same
tea garden.

Just my opinion. I want to test their teas to be sure, anyway.

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

Nigel/Ankit

This discussion is getting better and better! I am really excited!

I have been ill the entire weekend, but I just can't help
participating.

> Let's retain a sense of balance here - fluoride is naturally
present
> > in tea and is not a contaminant (neither is it a heavy metal).

Nigel, thanks for the correction.

I am particularly concerned about fluoride (and aluminium) because of
the focus on past scientific studies, mainly in West China, where
people had too much of them from the consumption of compressed tea.

Also the recent case study of a women in US suffering from fluorosis.

I am not an expert, but there have also been concern about fluoride
pesticide (if there is such thing, please correct me if I am wrong).

Again, open to correction. I really need to educate myself in this
matter much further.

My question is which tea do you test?

Dried tea leaf chemical composition?
Brewed tea liquor chemical composition?

I believe dried tea leaves contain less than half of soluble solids?

I have also thought that harmful substances in dried tea leaves are
less likely to be soluble.

So brewed tea liquor is better, but much more subjective as
preparation method can influence chemical composition.

So I guess standard practice is dried tea leaves, but bearing in mind
we are testing for a maximum here, and this is just an INDICATION
(probably less) of the amount present in brewed tea liquor?

Any data on the water-solubility of these pollutants will definitely
be very relevant.

Probably less soluble than vitamin C, theanine, caffeine and
catechins?

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

DogMa > wrote:
>Good news is that DDT and many other controlled pesticides aren't
>actually particularly bad for people in applied amounts. (I'm not sure
>that there is even a single example of someone dying from ingesting
>grams of the stuff, which happened not infrequently.) DDT was banned
>because - being fat-soluble and metabolized only very slowly - it
>concentrates up the food chain. So top-predator birds had problems with
>egg shell development. We'd have to eat the cats that fed on the mice
>that ate the beetles that ate the Pu-erh weevils...

Precisely. I grew up with sprinking DDT between the sheets before
getting into bed, and pouring DDT-laced diesel into the fire before
cooking outside to keep the bugs away. Not that it isn't an environmental
disaster, but it's not a human health disaster. Also, sad to say, it's
not as effective as it was when I was a kid because insects have evolved to
develop tolerances. Bug generations are very short.

That said, if you want to do testing for DDT, there is an easy titration
test that has a high false positive rate, a harder titration test that
has a lower false positive rate, and a chromatographic test that requires
much less material and is much easier if you have the machine. I assume
any professional laboratory today is using the chromatographic method,
but if you want to do it at home you can get the reagents to do the older
tests.

>I'm not a medic or biologist, but my impression is that many of the
>really nasty pesticides like cholinesterase inhibitors have high acute
>toxicity (e.g. to field workers) but very little chronic risk in lower
>doses. Kind of the opposite of heavy-metal poisoning, like recent lead
>problems. FWIW, I don't worry about it, and I do think a lot about food
>safety.

Yes, but don't forget there are some organometallic pesticides in common
use today now, which are indeed the opposite. On the gripping hand, we
also have to contend with the fact that the pesticides used in the field
are not exactly reagent-grade and come with all kinds of other contaminants
in possibly significant amounts.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Dried tea leaf chemical composition?
Brewed tea liquor chemical composition?


both are tested by the lab..

Scott/Dogma

> any professional laboratory today is using the chromatographic method,
> but if you want to do it at home you can get the reagents to do the older
> tests.

Can you explain what chromatographic is about is layman's terms? How
is that different from gas-chromatography which I came across in more
recent studies?

> >doses. Kind of the opposite of heavy-metal poisoning, like recent lead
> >problems. FWIW, I don't worry about it, and I do think a lot about food
> >safety.

Could you elaborate further on the "recent lead problems"? Is that the
toy paint thingy? That seems to be a different issue from
environmental pollution.

> Yes, but don't forget there are some organometallic pesticides in common
> use today now, which are indeed the opposite. On the gripping hand, we

Could you explain what is organometallic pesticides? Is there such
thing as fluoride pesticide? How can I read about the different kinds
of pesticides available, pros and cons etc?

> also have to contend with the fact that the pesticides used in the field
> are not exactly reagent-grade and come with all kinds of other contaminants
> in possibly significant amounts.

What is reagent-grade in layman's terms?

Sorry for the bother. I don't really intend to take up too much of
your time. But if you can point me in the right direction, I will much
appreciate it.

Thank you.

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

On Sep 24, 7:24 am, Ankit Lochan > wrote:
> Dried tea leaf chemical composition?
> Brewed tea liquor chemical composition?
>
> both are tested by the lab..

Thank you.

juliantai > wrote:
>Scott/Dogma
>
>> any professional laboratory today is using the chromatographic method,
>> but if you want to do it at home you can get the reagents to do the older
>> tests.
>
>Can you explain what chromatographic is about is layman's terms? How
>is that different from gas-chromatography which I came across in more
>recent studies?

Okay, if you take a paper sheet and you put a drop of something in it,
and you put the bottom of the sheet in a solvent, the various constituents
of that drop will move up the paper by capillary actions, and lighter
molecules will move up more.

Today we have automated machines... you drop a liquid in, and the machine
spits out a graph of composition vs. molecular weight. Fancier systems
will also spit out level vs. valence vs. molecular weight by applying charge
to the sample as well and separating it that way. A semi-skilled technician
can do the testing and it only takes an analytic chemist to read the results,
which means you can do lots of tests fast.

>> Yes, but don't forget there are some organometallic pesticides in common
>> use today now, which are indeed the opposite. On the gripping hand, we
>
>Could you explain what is organometallic pesticides? Is there such
>thing as fluoride pesticide? How can I read about the different kinds
>of pesticides available, pros and cons etc?

It's an organic molecule with a metal in it. I don't know where you would
get good information on available pesticides because they change so much,
but I'd start with a good college library.

I don't know of any pesticides containing fluorine but I'm no expert in
the subject. Fluorine for the most part is a lot more expensive than
chlorine which is often an effective subsitute. Pesticides are engineered
for low cost and low reactivity.

>> also have to contend with the fact that the pesticides used in the field
>> are not exactly reagent-grade and come with all kinds of other contaminants
>> in possibly significant amounts.
>
>What is reagent-grade in layman's terms?

If you buy a bottle of 50% ethanol from a chemical supplier, it will
contain 50% alcohol and 50% water and very little else, and most of the
other items will be listed on the data sheet that comes with it. You can
order with all sorts of different purity requirements... if you need it to
have no detectable iron, you can order one grade, if you need it to have
no detectable chlorine, you can order another. "Chemically pure" reagent
grade is about the lowest laboratory grade you'll see but it's still very
pure compared with vodka over the counter.

A lot of "practical grade" chemicals are much lower than vodka grade,
because they're used in applications where they don't need to be very
pure. If you look at the assay on a fertilizer grade ammonium nitrate,
you'll see it's only about 95% ammonium nitrate and the rest is junk and
God only knows what. But for fertilizer, that's fine.

>Sorry for the bother. I don't really intend to take up too much of
>your time. But if you can point me in the right direction, I will much
>appreciate it.

Call your local extension service and ask for a reference to a local
pesticide chemist.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Sep 24, 3:45 pm, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
>
> Call your local extension service and ask for a reference to a local
> pesticide chemist.

Good advice but sadly Julian, who is located in the UK, will find it
hard to follow. We no longer have an Extension Service as would be
recognisable by US citizens nor even a Ministry of Agriculture - this
was replaced by DEFRA (Department for Environment, Food and Rural
Affairs) and the extension experts were disbanded long ago. Most of
the practical information quoted by DEFRA is culled from USDA sources!

However, to keep this on-topic aI searched the DEFRA site for "tea
growing" and the first hit is a DEFRA Newsletter mentioning
Tregothnan, the new commercial tea farm in Cornwall where weather is
very similar to that of Darjeeling. I have tasted this tea and was
surprized to find it very similar in taste. The article continues
that it's possible that climate change could extend tea growing to
other areas, particularly with springtime frost growing less common in
southern England - and since its publication I have seen reference to
Taylors of Harrogate planting tea in Yorkshire.

Nigel at Teacraft

Scott et all

Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate it.

=============
Further Questions
=============

> >> Yes, but don't forget there are some organometallic pesticides in common
> >> use today now, which are indeed the opposite. On the gripping hand, we

Just out of curiosity, why is organometallic pesticides harm the
drinkers and not the workers?

It is interesting you compare pesticides to vodha, or spirit. Does
that tell me anything about the hot water solubility of this
pesticide?

====
PSD
====

I have found this article in the UK Pesticide Safety Directorate (PSD)

http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/food_industry.asp?id=546

As you can see, EU currently have MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE LIMITS for 30
pesticides residuals, with another 40 under discussion.

Not to mention other environmental pollutants.

It kind of struck me that low cost testing doesn't really exist, at
least for now, and the only logical place for comprehensive testing is
in the larger tea gardens, where it is subject to manipulation.

(

==================
My tentative conclusion
==================

The more I look into this issue, the less I am convinced pollution and
pesticides are an issue, especially if you are drinking a high grade.

First, a lot of tea quality is in the taste, so anyone can do their
DIY testing.

Second, as pointed to me earlier by Chagonwala, we drink only a few
grams of tea leaves each day. Only less than half is soluble in water.

Now compared this to the other foods you eat. Another 300 grams or
more? Do your vegetables and fruits and meats grow in high mountain?
Are they TRULY organic? They don't dissolve in water, do they? Have
they any history of health scare? Do they kill bacteria and virus and
reduce cancer risk?

Julian
http://www.amazing-green-tea.com

> very similar to that of Darjeeling. I have tasted this tea and was
> surprized to find it very similar in taste. The article continues
> that it's possible that climate change could extend tea growing to
> other areas, particularly with springtime frost growing less common in
> southern England - and since its publication I have seen reference to
> Taylors of Harrogate planting tea in Yorkshire.

Nigel, you must be kidding! Maybe we can collaborate and plant some
teas in Sussex?
I was very tempted earlier to put my money in an English Wine
company...

juliantai > wrote:
>> >> Yes, but don't forget there are some organometallic pesticides in common
>> >> use today now, which are indeed the opposite. On the gripping hand, we
>
>Just out of curiosity, why is organometallic pesticides harm the
>drinkers and not the workers?

Lots of them do harm the workers, especially when excessively applied. A
lot of pesticides that are no longer legal for use in the US because of
safety concerns are still extensively used in other countries.

>It is interesting you compare pesticides to vodha, or spirit. Does
>that tell me anything about the hot water solubility of this
>pesticide?

Well, ethanol is a thing you can get in a lot of forms. It makes it a
convenient reference point.

>http://www.pesticides.gov.uk/food_industry.asp?id=546
>
>As you can see, EU currently have MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE LIMITS for 30
>pesticides residuals, with another 40 under discussion.
>
>Not to mention other environmental pollutants.
>
>It kind of struck me that low cost testing doesn't really exist, at
>least for now, and the only logical place for comprehensive testing is
>in the larger tea gardens, where it is subject to manipulation.

Sure.

>The more I look into this issue, the less I am convinced pollution and
>pesticides are an issue, especially if you are drinking a high grade.
>
>First, a lot of tea quality is in the taste, so anyone can do their
>DIY testing.
>
>Second, as pointed to me earlier by Chagonwala, we drink only a few
>grams of tea leaves each day. Only less than half is soluble in water.
>
>Now compared this to the other foods you eat. Another 300 grams or
>more? Do your vegetables and fruits and meats grow in high mountain?
>Are they TRULY organic? They don't dissolve in water, do they? Have
>they any history of health scare? Do they kill bacteria and virus and
>reduce cancer risk?

Yes, precisely. The thing is, we drink a lot of tea which is farmed
in developing countries under poorly-controlled conditions, and we don't
consume many other products like that. On the other hand, if I were
living in mainland China today, tea would be the last thing I would ever
worry about.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

(Scott Dorsey) writes:

> juliantai > wrote:
> >[...] as pointed to me earlier by Chagonwala, we drink only a few
> >grams of tea leaves each day. Only less than half is soluble in water.
> >
> >Now compared this to the other foods you eat. Another 300 grams or
> >more? Do your vegetables and fruits and meats grow in high mountain?
> >Are they TRULY organic? They don't dissolve in water, do they? Have
> >they any history of health scare? Do they kill bacteria and virus and
> >reduce cancer risk?
>
> Yes, precisely. The thing is, we drink a lot of tea which is farmed
> in developing countries under poorly-controlled conditions, and we don't
> consume many other products like that. On the other hand, if I were
> living in mainland China today, tea would be the last thing I would ever
> worry about.

I don't have numbers for this at my fingertips - does anybody within
the sound of my "voice"? - but the idea that people in developed
countries don't consume much food grown under lax controls in
less-developed countries seems, well, something I wouldn't be able to
prove. Chinese-grown garlic and ginger is definitely sold here in New
York. And there's lots of Mexican produce - how much? - that, in
reality, is how well controlled in the fields and and how well
inspected thereafter?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Tea is an agricultural product. If you die it will be from some
bacteria you didn't kill without boiling water not because of
accumulation of pollutants or pesticides in your body. For those who
find their tea contaminated I'll take it off your hands for FREE. You
pay for shipping.

Jim

PS DDT was causing bird eggs to crack prematurely. Drink too much
water at once you'll die from drowning. Eat all the lead paint you
want as an adult. The FDA is responsible for all agricultural and
seafood imports into this country. I'll guarantee there is more
hazardess artificial preservatives in your refrigerator than your tea.


Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
> Yes, precisely. The thing is, we drink a lot of tea which is farmed
> in developing countries under poorly-controlled conditions, and we don't
> consume many other products like that. On the other hand, if I were
> living in mainland China today, tea would be the last thing I would ever
> worry about.

If you consume tea from landmass Chinese suppliers, it does not issue whether there is an natural brand on it or not; you cannot really have any concept about pesticide pollution without real statistic.



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