Hey tea lovers I just wanted to inform the group about our tea. We
just started up in December of 2007 and we want to share out delicious
brew with other tea lovers.
Precious Will Tea is a private label tea company, run by a husband and
wife team, based in Queen Village, Philadelphia, PA.

Our teas are the best available from around the world. We use teas
recognized by the Ethical Tea Partnership
(www.ethicalteapartnership.org) for fair growing and manufacturing
practices and hand-bag each tea in chlorine-free tea bags.

We currently offer 14 different teas. With selections in Blacks,
Flavored Blacks, Rooibos, Greens, and Herbals you are sure to find
something that will meet your tea needs!

Be assured, Precious Will Tea has brewed each tea we sell to ensure
the correct balance of flavor and blend.
If we won't drink it we won't sell it!

Please check out our website to learn more about us and our tea:
www.preciouswilltea.com

On Feb 9, 10:17 pm, wrote:
> Hey tea lovers I just wanted to inform the group about our tea. We
> just started up in December of 2007 and we want to share out delicious
> brew with other tea lovers.
> Precious Will Tea is a private label tea company, run by a husband and
> wife team, based in Queen Village, Philadelphia, PA.
>
> Our teas are the best available from around the world. We use teas
> recognized by the Ethical Tea Partnership
> (www.ethicalteapartnership.org) for fair growing and manufacturing
> practices and hand-bag each tea in chlorine-free tea bags.
>
> We currently offer 14 different teas. With selections in Blacks,
> Flavored Blacks, Rooibos, Greens, and Herbals you are sure to find
> something that will meet your tea needs!
>
> Be assured, Precious Will Tea has brewed each tea we sell to ensure
> the correct balance of flavor and blend.
> If we won't drink it we won't sell it!
>
> Please check out our website to learn more about us and our tea:www.preciouswilltea.com

I see you've begun learning to create and use poor-quality vector
graphics to a nauseating degree. I'm not sure if you ever spent any
time even finding out about this newsgroup before your ad, but I'm
guessing not. Best of luck to ya but I'd imagine this ain't the place
you'll find it.

- Dominic

On Feb 9, 7:17*pm, wrote:
> Hey tea lovers I just wanted to inform the group about our tea. *We
> just started up in December of 2007 and we want to share out delicious
> brew with other tea lovers.
> Precious Will Tea is a private label tea company, run by a husband and
> wife team, based in Queen Village, Philadelphia, PA.
>
> Our teas are the best available from around the world. We use teas
> recognized by the Ethical Tea Partnership
> (www.ethicalteapartnership.org) for fair growing and manufacturing
> practices and hand-bag each tea in chlorine-free tea bags.
>
> We currently offer 14 different teas. With selections in Blacks,
> Flavored Blacks, Rooibos, Greens, and Herbals you are sure to find
> something that will meet your tea needs!
>
> Be assured, Precious Will Tea has brewed each tea we sell to ensure
> the correct balance of flavor and blend.
> If we won't drink it we won't sell it!
>
> Please check out our website to learn more about us and our tea:www.preciouswilltea.com

As per Dominic - you're not going to get any support from this group
because (as you'll see in the innumerable posts in the archives) NO
ADVERTISING ALLOWED!
PLEASE DON'T DO THIS AGAIN!
USE TEAMAIL ON YAHOO -THEY ALLOW ADVERTISING ONCE A MONTH ON
WEDNESDAYS.

On Feb 10, 10:48 am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> On Feb 9, 10:17 pm, wrote:
>
> I see you've begun learning to create and use poor-quality vector
> graphics to a nauseating degree. I'm not sure if you ever spent any
> time even finding out about this newsgroup before your ad, but I'm
> guessing not. Best of luck to ya but I'd imagine this ain't the place
> you'll find it.
>
> - Dominic


hi dominc,

thanks for the feedback. our labels are deliberately minimalistic,
focusing more on the quality of tea and not some fancy branding. we
are in the early stages of this project (fourth month) and have seen
mild, yet consistent success.

we have only two goals through precious will tea: 1. to make tea
approachable for those who know nothing of tea beyond the yellow
lipton box; and 2. sell enough tea to afford us the opportunity to
someday visit the very fields from which our teas are produced - a
very long term goal.

i noticed you participate in many tea chats and would love to see what
your knowledge has produced, may it be your own line of tea offerings,
a tea shop or formal publications on the topic. otherwise, please
refrain from random blasting's until you've seen and tasted the
product first hand.

thank you,

wdw

On Feb 11, 6:42*am, wrote:
> On Feb 10, 10:48 am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
> > On Feb 9, 10:17 pm, wrote:
>
> > I see you've begun learning to create and use poor-quality vector
> > graphics to a nauseating degree. I'm not sure if you ever spent any
> > time even finding out about this newsgroup before your ad, but I'm
> > guessing not. Best of luck to ya but I'd imagine this ain't the place
> > you'll find it.
>
> > - Dominic
>
> hi dominc,
>
> thanks for the feedback. *our labels are deliberately minimalistic,
> focusing more on the quality of tea and not some fancy branding. *we
> are in the early stages of this project (fourth month) and have seen
> mild, yet consistent success.
>
> we have only two goals through precious will tea: 1. to make tea
> approachable for those who know nothing of tea beyond the yellow
> lipton box; and 2. sell enough tea to afford us the opportunity to
> someday visit the very fields from which our teas are produced - a
> very long term goal.
>
> i noticed you participate in many tea chats and would love to see what
> your knowledge has produced, may it be your own line of tea offerings,
> a tea shop or formal publications on the topic. *otherwise, please
> refrain from random blasting's until you've seen and tasted the
> product first hand.
>
> thank you,
>
> wdw

Random blasting or not - perhaps, you didn't get the message very
clearly: DO NOT AS ADVERTISE HERE. No one likes it, nor is it the
place. IF you had read this group for any period of time, you would
realize that even the VERY BEST teas are not to be advertised here.
Your marketing goals are irrelevant. The bottom line is that this is
not a forum for advertising.
Dominic, in my honest opinion, was being as polite as possible and
he's pretty knowledgeable about teas.
If you have a specific tea to review, as a taster and not a vendor, go
ahead. That's interesting and many folks will generally jump in and
share. I have promoted or criticized many a tea as a taster myself.
But, in this case, you are, VERY OBVIOUSLY, pushing your teas.
Check the archives - not wanted here.
Shen

On Feb 11, 9:42 am, wrote:
> On Feb 10, 10:48 am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
> > On Feb 9, 10:17 pm, wrote:
>
> > I see you've begun learning to create and use poor-quality vector
> > graphics to a nauseating degree. I'm not sure if you ever spent any
> > time even finding out about this newsgroup before your ad, but I'm
> > guessing not. Best of luck to ya but I'd imagine this ain't the place
> > you'll find it.
>
> > - Dominic
>
> hi dominc,
>
> thanks for the feedback. our labels are deliberately minimalistic,
> focusing more on the quality of tea and not some fancy branding. we
> are in the early stages of this project (fourth month) and have seen
> mild, yet consistent success.
>
> we have only two goals through precious will tea: 1. to make tea
> approachable for those who know nothing of tea beyond the yellow
> lipton box; and 2. sell enough tea to afford us the opportunity to
> someday visit the very fields from which our teas are produced - a
> very long term goal.
>
> i noticed you participate in many tea chats and would love to see what
> your knowledge has produced, may it be your own line of tea offerings,
> a tea shop or formal publications on the topic. otherwise, please
> refrain from random blasting's until you've seen and tasted the
> product first hand.
>
> thank you,
>
> wdw

Wow, you got a pair of brass ones. I honestly have no time or patience
for you or your snake oil. Your website is terrible, offers no
information beyond "the best tea in the world" which *must* be true
since you have never even visited any growers nor have you listed any
origin or really anything beyond ****-poor graphics and generic names.

Your "ordering system" is solely comprised of an Excel spreadsheet.
There's a thing called SSL, you may want to look into it.

You go ahead and send me a sample of your "best" tea (it can be very
small, 1 gaiwan's worth even) and I will pay for the actual shipping
costs happily. I would be the first person to shout from the rooftops
of its excellence regardless of your lack of tact in this newsgroup,
your disrespectful attitude, ignorance, and lack of web savvy. I'm
100% straightforward and honest, and that is what I was to you as
well. You came here to astroturf this newsgroup with an advertisement,
and I called you on it. Not just me, but everyone here is no stranger
to this behavior as it happens quite frequently and is not the way to
drum up business.

Attacking me or anyone here is certainly the wrong way to turn your
initial faux pas into anything productive. You made a mistake,
apologize and move on. If you'd like to participate in this newsgroup
and provide insight, intelligent conversation, and to probably learn a
ton about the business you've chosen... go ahead, we'd be glad to
learn more about you, the real scoop on your product, and offer help
and insight about tea... not business, but tea. Business will
naturally follow without ads.

- Dominic

On Feb 11, 2:01 pm, Shen > wrote:


Apologies Shen. It was not our intention to maliciously litter an
advertisement free space, and you are correct, we have not been
following this group's thread long enough to know that.

That said, I am certainly willing to drop our post/thread if able. I
do not participate in Google Groups often enough to become familiar
with how-to's, so your experience would lend helpful here. Let me
know what I can do, and I'll move forward with it.

Thank you,

wdw

On Feb 11, 6:39 pm, wrote:
> On Feb 11, 2:01 pm, Shen > wrote:
>
> Apologies Shen. It was not our intention to maliciously litter an
> advertisement free space, and you are correct, we have not been
> following this group's thread long enough to know that.
>
> That said, I am certainly willing to drop our post/thread if able. I
> do not participate in Google Groups often enough to become familiar
> with how-to's, so your experience would lend helpful here. Let me
> know what I can do, and I'll move forward with it.
>
> Thank you,
>
> wdw

Read my reply below and it should catch you up. You may want to start
by reading about Usenet: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/primer/part1/

You will find these points listed, among others:

* Do not use Usenet as an advertising medium.

* Think About Your Audience.
"Be familiar with the group you are posting to before you post! You
shouldn't post to groups you do not read, or post to groups you've
only read a few articles from"
"One normally does not join a conversation by just walking up and
talking. Instead, you listen first and then join in if you have
something pertinent to contribute."

- Dominic

On Feb 11, 6:52 pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> On Feb 11, 6:39 pm, wrote:
>
> Read my reply below and it should catch you up. You may want to start
> by reading about Usenet:http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/primer/part1/
>
> You will find these points listed, among others:
>
> * Do not use Usenet as an advertising medium.
>
> * Think About Your Audience.
> "Be familiar with the group you are posting to before you post! You
> shouldn't post to groups you do not read, or post to groups you've
> only read a few articles from"
> "One normally does not join a conversation by just walking up and
> talking. Instead, you listen first and then join in if you have
> something pertinent to contribute."
>
> - Dominic


Again, apologies all around.

I am more than happy to drop the thread, but have no idea how to go
about that process - any ideas?

Thanks,

wdw

On Feb 11, 7:02 pm, wrote:
> On Feb 11, 6:52 pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 11, 6:39 pm, wrote:
>
> > Read my reply below and it should catch you up. You may want to start
> > by reading about Usenet:http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/primer/part1/
>
> > You will find these points listed, among others:
>
> > * Do not use Usenet as an advertising medium.
>
> > * Think About Your Audience.
> > "Be familiar with the group you are posting to before you post! You
> > shouldn't post to groups you do not read, or post to groups you've
> > only read a few articles from"
> > "One normally does not join a conversation by just walking up and
> > talking. Instead, you listen first and then join in if you have
> > something pertinent to contribute."
>
> > - Dominic
>
> Again, apologies all around.
>
> I am more than happy to drop the thread, but have no idea how to go
> about that process - any ideas?
>
> Thanks,
>
> wdw

You can't. It is what it is and it will always be since Usenet is
permanent and archived. Which is why you should take your time and
properly research where and how you choose to advertise. Look, to be
perfectly frank with you, this isn't the place for your tea. The folks
here, myself included, truly drink some of the best teas in the world.
Teas that cost hundreds to thousands of dollars for ounces/pounds. No
offense to you, your business, or your product... just realize what
you are selling is most likely of less quality than what most of us
here drink daily or have thrown away. That sounds harsh, or even
arrogant, but I can assure you it is the truth.

I only mention this because you could probably learn a lot from many
of the folks here, and it would only help you. Search our archives,
read our posts, research the regions and teas we drink and talk about.
Again, I think you just saw the word "tea" in this newsgroup's title
and assumed we were Lipton drinkers or all American. We aren't. There
are real tea growers here, people from around the world, and some
authorities on certain types of tea. More importantly most of us have
decades of dedication to tea, it is part of our lives and in some
cases religions.

To try to claim you have "the best tea in the world" is laughable at
best and honestly put up the largest red flag ever to 99% of the
readers here, I was just the only one who took the time/effort to
notify you of it instead of ignoring it and letting it fall away. I do
this to any posts of this nature (not just yours) here on this
newsgroup for a reason, to warn the casual observer/lurker that this
post is not in any way associated with us or is a known reputable and
trusted vendor to anyone here. In a word, SPAM.

Again, all this may sound harsh, but it isn't. You are free to spend
some time here, learn the ropes, contribute, listen... just never
advertise or try to do what you did again and all will be forgotten in
time if you are sincere and become a valued member. You've got a black
eye, just one, you can suck it up and it'll heal or you can move on.

- Dominic

oh, and this is Usenet, not anything to do with Google. It has been
around long before Google, and will be if/when they are no more. You
happen to access it via a Google service, nothing more. The link I
provided earlier and some quick research should catch you up.

On Feb 11, 7:25 pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
> You can't. It is what it is and it will always be since Usenet is
> permanent and archived. Which is why you should take your time and
> properly research where and how you choose to advertise. Look, to be
> perfectly frank with you, this isn't the place for your tea. The folks
> here, myself included, truly drink some of the best teas in the world.
> Teas that cost hundreds to thousands of dollars for ounces/pounds. No
> offense to you, your business, or your product... just realize what
> you are selling is most likely of less quality than what most of us
> here drink daily or have thrown away. That sounds harsh, or even
> arrogant, but I can assure you it is the truth.
>
> I only mention this because you could probably learn a lot from many
> of the folks here, and it would only help you. Search our archives,
> read our posts, research the regions and teas we drink and talk about.
> Again, I think you just saw the word "tea" in this newsgroup's title
> and assumed we were Lipton drinkers or all American. We aren't. There
> are real tea growers here, people from around the world, and some
> authorities on certain types of tea. More importantly most of us have
> decades of dedication to tea, it is part of our lives and in some
> cases religions.
>
> To try to claim you have "the best tea in the world" is laughable at
> best and honestly put up the largest red flag ever to 99% of the
> readers here, I was just the only one who took the time/effort to
> notify you of it instead of ignoring it and letting it fall away. I do
> this to any posts of this nature (not just yours) here on this
> newsgroup for a reason, to warn the casual observer/lurker that this
> post is not in any way associated with us or is a known reputable and
> trusted vendor to anyone here. In a word, SPAM.
>
> Again, all this may sound harsh, but it isn't. You are free to spend
> some time here, learn the ropes, contribute, listen... just never
> advertise or try to do what you did again and all will be forgotten in
> time if you are sincere and become a valued member. You've got a black
> eye, just one, you can suck it up and it'll heal or you can move on.
>
> - Dominic
>
> oh, and this is Usenet, not anything to do with Google. It has been
> around long before Google, and will be if/when they are no more. You
> happen to access it via a Google service, nothing more. The link I
> provided earlier and some quick research should catch you up.


Thank you for the affirmation Dominic. I appreciate the extra-step
you've taken to explain the value of the group. I'll drop in from
time to time, mostly from a distance, to pick up a few nuggets of
experience from the crowd.

We've been spreading the word fast than we've been building the
business (side business/hobby really), and stepped rather impulsively
here. My wife made the initial post, hence my ignorance this is not a
google group.

Cheers,

wdw

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:28:24 -0800, Dominic T. wrote:

> Wow, you got a pair of brass ones. I honestly have no time or patience
> for you or your snake oil. Your website is terrible, offers no
> information beyond "the best tea in the world" which *must* be true
> since you have never even visited any growers nor have you listed any
> origin or really anything beyond ****-poor graphics and generic names.
>
> Your "ordering system" is solely comprised of an Excel spreadsheet.
> There's a thing called SSL, you may want to look into it.
>
> You go ahead and send me a sample of your "best" tea (it can be very
> small, 1 gaiwan's worth even) and I will pay for the actual shipping
> costs happily. I would be the first person to shout from the rooftops of
> its excellence regardless of your lack of tact in this newsgroup, your
> disrespectful attitude, ignorance, and lack of web savvy. I'm 100%
> straightforward and honest, and that is what I was to you as well. You
> came here to astroturf this newsgroup with an advertisement, and I
> called you on it. Not just me, but everyone here is no stranger to this
> behavior as it happens quite frequently and is not the way to drum up
> business.
>
> Attacking me or anyone here is certainly the wrong way to turn your
> initial faux pas into anything productive. You made a mistake, apologize
> and move on. If you'd like to participate in this newsgroup and provide
> insight, intelligent conversation, and to probably learn a ton about the
> business you've chosen... go ahead, we'd be glad to learn more about
> you, the real scoop on your product, and offer help and insight about
> tea... not business, but tea. Business will naturally follow without
> ads.
>
> - Dominic

I realise that jumping into this sort of an argument is unlikely to help
anything, but I think that you are being entirely too harsh to the
original poster. The advertisement in question wasn't a mindless spam and,
even if you objected to it, their responses were apologetic and polite.
The way that you're behaving towards the original poster is, in my mind,
far more offensive than their posting of an advertisement here.

On top of that, as has been mentioned before, the FAQ and charter for this
group does _not_ specifically prohibit advertising except as follows:

"but this newsgroup should NOT be used for advertising herbal tea
products or discussing tea as anything other than a beverage."

If anything, this implies that advertising C. sinensis based teas /is/
allowed. If you are going to be this irate about messages like this, I
suggest that you make sure that the "official" FAQ reflects this. If, that
is, it really is "the will of the group".

I agree that untargeted spamming is undesirable, but I wouldn't lump what
appears to be a hand-written message from a small startup company in with
bulk commercial advertising. I agree that full-on advertising should be
restricted here, but I don't see any reason why someone representing a
company should be prevented from talking about their products here
provided that they don't hammer it home and flood the group.

As a reader of this group, although not a frequent or knowledgeable
poster, I'm finding it more offensive to read your responses than the
polite messages from the original poster. It's clear that you dislike this
advertising, but this is one person who has made a mistake and should be
treated with some basic respect. A simple, polite message asking them not
to advertise would be much better than the repeated and personal attacks
that you're currently flinging at them.

I'm not going to get into an argument, so I won't be replying to this
message, but I wanted to show (particularly the original poster) that
there are people here who don't agree with you, especially in terms of the
way you're expressing yourself. I'm not advocating free-for-all
advertising, I'm advocating treating other people with a bit of respect,
even if they've inadvertently broken the rules.

Joss

if you were a reader of this group you would've seen this matter come
up from time to time.

please go back and read some more.

mindless SPAM is NOT WELCOME HERE.

On Feb 12, 6:38 am, Joss Wright > wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:28:24 -0800, Dominic T. wrote:
> > Wow, you got a pair of brass ones. I honestly have no time or patience
> > for you or your snake oil. Your website is terrible, offers no
> > information beyond "the best tea in the world" which *must* be true
> > since you have never even visited any growers nor have you listed any
> > origin or really anything beyond ****-poor graphics and generic names.
>
> > Your "ordering system" is solely comprised of an Excel spreadsheet.
> > There's a thing called SSL, you may want to look into it.
>
> > You go ahead and send me a sample of your "best" tea (it can be very
> > small, 1 gaiwan's worth even) and I will pay for the actual shipping
> > costs happily. I would be the first person to shout from the rooftops of
> > its excellence regardless of your lack of tact in this newsgroup, your
> > disrespectful attitude, ignorance, and lack of web savvy. I'm 100%
> > straightforward and honest, and that is what I was to you as well. You
> > came here to astroturf this newsgroup with an advertisement, and I
> > called you on it. Not just me, but everyone here is no stranger to this
> > behavior as it happens quite frequently and is not the way to drum up
> > business.
>
> > Attacking me or anyone here is certainly the wrong way to turn your
> > initial faux pas into anything productive. You made a mistake, apologize
> > and move on. If you'd like to participate in this newsgroup and provide
> > insight, intelligent conversation, and to probably learn a ton about the
> > business you've chosen... go ahead, we'd be glad to learn more about
> > you, the real scoop on your product, and offer help and insight about
> > tea... not business, but tea. Business will naturally follow without
> > ads.
>
> > - Dominic
>
> I realise that jumping into this sort of an argument is unlikely to help
> anything, but I think that you are being entirely too harsh to the
> original poster. The advertisement in question wasn't a mindless spam and,
> even if you objected to it, their responses were apologetic and polite.
> The way that you're behaving towards the original poster is, in my mind,
> far more offensive than their posting of an advertisement here.
>
> On top of that, as has been mentioned before, the FAQ and charter for this
> group does _not_ specifically prohibit advertising except as follows:
>
> "but this newsgroup should NOT be used for advertising herbal tea
> products or discussing tea as anything other than a beverage."
>
> If anything, this implies that advertising C. sinensis based teas /is/
> allowed. If you are going to be this irate about messages like this, I
> suggest that you make sure that the "official" FAQ reflects this. If, that
> is, it really is "the will of the group".
>
> I agree that untargeted spamming is undesirable, but I wouldn't lump what
> appears to be a hand-written message from a small startup company in with
> bulk commercial advertising. I agree that full-on advertising should be
> restricted here, but I don't see any reason why someone representing a
> company should be prevented from talking about their products here
> provided that they don't hammer it home and flood the group.
>
> As a reader of this group, although not a frequent or knowledgeable
> poster, I'm finding it more offensive to read your responses than the
> polite messages from the original poster. It's clear that you dislike this
> advertising, but this is one person who has made a mistake and should be
> treated with some basic respect. A simple, polite message asking them not
> to advertise would be much better than the repeated and personal attacks
> that you're currently flinging at them.
>
> I'm not going to get into an argument, so I won't be replying to this
> message, but I wanted to show (particularly the original poster) that
> there are people here who don't agree with you, especially in terms of the
> way you're expressing yourself. I'm not advocating free-for-all
> advertising, I'm advocating treating other people with a bit of respect,
> even if they've inadvertently broken the rules.
>
> Joss

Joss, you're welcome to your opinion. I was and am 100% honest and I
made every attempt to clarify every point I made. I get so sick and
tired of people defending this kind of thing that I honestly stop
caring. But, when you or someone like you - a casual reader/poster
here - decides to order tea from one of these sites and gets taken or
scammed *then* get back to me about how harsh or terrible I am.

I have spent countless hours and years protecting consumers/banking
online as a profession, if you truly think my comments are unfounded
or baseless then go right ahead. Go ahead and order tea via a
spreadsheet with personal info with ZERO protection or security. No
matter how well meaning or good intentioned, nothing excuses a
complete disregard for customer security. See how much good intentions
help when your identity/private info gets stolen. It's a serious
issue, I take it seriously, I've seen the damage first-hand over and
over.

Once he apologized, I backed off and offered nothing but constructive
criticism. There is little more I can/will do.

- Dominic

On Feb 12, 9:35 am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> Joss, you're welcome to your opinion. I was and am 100% honest and I
> made every attempt to clarify every point I made. I get so sick and
> tired of people defending this kind of thing that I honestly stop
> caring. But, when you or someone like you - a casual reader/poster
> here - decides to order tea from one of these sites and gets taken or
> scammed *then* get back to me about how harsh or terrible I am.
>
> I have spent countless hours and years protecting consumers/banking
> online as a profession, if you truly think my comments are unfounded
> or baseless then go right ahead. Go ahead and order tea via a
> spreadsheet with personal info with ZERO protection or security. No
> matter how well meaning or good intentioned, nothing excuses a
> complete disregard for customer security. See how much good intentions
> help when your identity/private info gets stolen. It's a serious
> issue, I take it seriously, I've seen the damage first-hand over and
> over.
>
> Once he apologized, I backed off and offered nothing but constructive
> criticism. There is little more I can/will do.
>
> - Dominic


Wow. Thanks for the moral support Joss, however I'd rather see this
issue fade away.

In regards to our shoty or otherwise dodgy website, this is a small
project to supplement some newly found free time after a normal work
day. We have not made the final leap to design and build a full blown
e-commerce site with all the bells-n-whistles, but it is something we
are constantly considering and pricing. As for "security", we rely on
google for that service. We actually never see any credit
information, just shipping information.

I do appreciate the general concern Dominic has vocalized concerning
spammers, as I too loath the variety of offers made from Nigerian oil
tycoons from the random household items I post on craigslist, however
I wish he had highlighted our use of google checkout as a reliable
source of security. We put our first "funds" into the tea and its
packaging, not our world wide image - am obvious mistake.

Let's all just leave it at that.

Thank you,

wdw

On Feb 12, 3:38*am, Joss Wright > wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 15:28:24 -0800, Dominic T. wrote:
> > Wow, you got a pair of brass ones. I honestly have no time or patience
> > for you or your snake oil. Your website is terrible, offers no
> > information beyond "the best tea in the world" which *must* be true
> > since you have never even visited any growers nor have you listed any
> > origin or really anything beyond ****-poor graphics and generic names.
>
> > Your "ordering system" is solely comprised of an Excel spreadsheet.
> > There's a thing called SSL, you may want to look into it.
>
> > You go ahead and send me a sample of your "best" tea (it can be very
> > small, 1 gaiwan's worth even) and I will pay for the actual shipping
> > costs happily. I would be the first person to shout from the rooftops of
> > its excellence regardless of your lack of tact in this newsgroup, your
> > disrespectful attitude, ignorance, and lack of web savvy. I'm 100%
> > straightforward and honest, and that is what I was to you as well. You
> > came here to astroturf this newsgroup with an advertisement, and I
> > called you on it. Not just me, but everyone here is no stranger to this
> > behavior as it happens quite frequently and is not the way to drum up
> > business.
>
> > Attacking me or anyone here is certainly the wrong way to turn your
> > initial faux pas into anything productive. You made a mistake, apologize
> > and move on. If you'd like to participate in this newsgroup and provide
> > insight, intelligent conversation, and to probably learn a ton about the
> > business you've chosen... go ahead, we'd be glad to learn more about
> > you, the real scoop on your product, and offer help and insight about
> > tea... not business, but tea. Business will naturally follow without
> > ads.
>
> > - Dominic
>
> I realise that jumping into this sort of an argument is unlikely to help
> anything, but I think that you are being entirely too harsh to the
> original poster. The advertisement in question wasn't a mindless spam and,
> even if you objected to it, their responses were apologetic and polite.
> The way that you're behaving towards the original poster is, in my mind,
> far more offensive than their posting of an advertisement here.
>
> On top of that, as has been mentioned before, the FAQ and charter for this
> group does _not_ specifically prohibit advertising except as follows:
>
> * *"but this newsgroup should NOT be used for advertising herbal tea
> products or discussing tea as anything other than a beverage."
>
> If anything, this implies that advertising C. sinensis based teas /is/
> allowed. If you are going to be this irate about messages like this, I
> suggest that you make sure that the "official" FAQ reflects this. If, that
> is, it really is "the will of the group".
>
> I agree that untargeted spamming is undesirable, but I wouldn't lump what
> appears to be a hand-written message from a small startup company in with
> bulk commercial advertising. I agree that full-on advertising should be
> restricted here, but I don't see any reason why someone representing a
> company should be prevented from talking about their products here
> provided that they don't hammer it home and flood the group.
>
> As a reader of this group, although not a frequent or knowledgeable
> poster, I'm finding it more offensive to read your responses than the
> polite messages from the original poster. It's clear that you dislike this
> advertising, but this is one person who has made a mistake and should be
> treated with some basic respect. A simple, polite message asking them not
> to advertise would be much better than the repeated and personal attacks
> that you're currently flinging at them.
>
> I'm not going to get into an argument, so I won't be replying to this
> message, but I wanted to show (particularly the original poster) that
> there are people here who don't agree with you, especially in terms of the
> way you're expressing yourself. I'm not advocating free-for-all
> advertising, I'm advocating treating other people with a bit of respect,
> even if they've inadvertently broken the rules.
>
> Joss- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Folks promoting a business do very little "inadvertently".

I was going to stay out of this discussion. But since it comes up
about once a month or so, I thought I'd share the perspective of a
relatively ignorant tea-lover.

My opinion is that there's a difference between an evil spammer (e.g.,
EM EYE FIVE) and someone who simply leaps before they look. Not
everyone is up on Usenetiquette, and believe (however wrongly) it is
appropriate to advertise their humble site in this newsgroup. I
suggest a reply in the vein of "we hope you will contribute
information and experiences to this newsgroup, but please note that
advertising is not permitted in this newsgroup" and refer them to the
charter/FAQ. I believe that most people would reply with "thanks; I
didn't know" and become a member of the group. Ripping them a new one
merely puts them on the defensive and starts these pointless arguments
all over again, plus very likely turns away someone who could become a
valuable member of the group.

It's easy for those of us who've been reading and contributing to this
newsgroup to get fed up with yet another "go to my online tea shop"
posting and to forget that we were newbies once also. Keep in mind
that the latest poster was not part of the previous discussions on
what is and isn't appropriate to post here, so shouldn't be held to
the same standards as someone who has already had the error of their
ways pointed out to them.

I don't have my own tea farm or tea business, but I enjoy drinking and
learning about tea. That is why I came to this group. I've learned a
lot since I've been here, and no doubt many of you have forgotten more
than I'll ever know. I'd hate to think that this group is hurting
itself b

I agree with Shen that the original posting was not inadvertent.
However, I believe the offense was.

"Use what talent you possess - the woods would be very silent if no
birds sang except those that sang best. " Henry Van Dyke

Just my two cents,

Alan

On Feb 13, 5:40 pm, Alan > wrote:
> I was going to stay out of this discussion. But since it comes up
> about once a month or so, I thought I'd share the perspective of a
> relatively ignorant tea-lover.
>
> My opinion is that there's a difference between an evil spammer (e.g.,
> EM EYE FIVE) and someone who simply leaps before they look. Not
> everyone is up on Usenetiquette, and believe (however wrongly) it is
> appropriate to advertise their humble site in this newsgroup. I
> suggest a reply in the vein of "we hope you will contribute
> information and experiences to this newsgroup, but please note that
> advertising is not permitted in this newsgroup" and refer them to the
> charter/FAQ. I believe that most people would reply with "thanks; I
> didn't know" and become a member of the group. Ripping them a new one
> merely puts them on the defensive and starts these pointless arguments
> all over again, plus very likely turns away someone who could become a
> valuable member of the group.
>
> It's easy for those of us who've been reading and contributing to this
> newsgroup to get fed up with yet another "go to my online tea shop"
> posting and to forget that we were newbies once also. Keep in mind
> that the latest poster was not part of the previous discussions on
> what is and isn't appropriate to post here, so shouldn't be held to
> the same standards as someone who has already had the error of their
> ways pointed out to them.
>
> I don't have my own tea farm or tea business, but I enjoy drinking and
> learning about tea. That is why I came to this group. I've learned a
> lot since I've been here, and no doubt many of you have forgotten more
> than I'll ever know. I'd hate to think that this group is hurting
> itself b
>
> I agree with Shen that the original posting was not inadvertent.
> However, I believe the offense was.
>
> "Use what talent you possess - the woods would be very silent if no
> birds sang except those that sang best. " Henry Van Dyke
>
> Just my two cents,
>
> Alan

Em Eye Five stuff is global spam that hits thousands of newsgroups, I
just ignore/killfile that stuff and so does everyone else. Spam just
on RFDT are a bit of a different animal. After this debacle, I will
only reply once to such posts stating that "This is an unsolicited
advertisement and not welcome or endorsed by Rec.Food.Drink.Tea
members."

I am also working on updating and re-hosting the FAQ since it seems
quite out of date. I'm not sure if the current maintainer of the FAQ
is still a member here or not but if he is please email me. However, I
will always go further than that with any scams, illegal practices, or
fraud as that is part of who I am and what I do. I will do it off of
this group when possible and not clutter this space with it at all
cost.

As an FYI, two scammers over my time here have been shut down after
being reported to the proper authorities. One of them was found to be
responsible for a number of illegal businesses with hundreds of
complaints against them. The identity was traced back to a post made
here. I have taken a lot of flak in my personal email from folks like
you who only see it as one sided or overly aggressive at times, but I
seriously urge you to think about how you would feel if a close
friend, relative, or yourself, were to have their credit card info. or
worse identity stolen from something like this. It takes months and
years of your effort to clear up some of these messes, and some cause
real damage to people's lives. Many times it is innocuous and not the
intention of the merchant even just a lack of knowledge/skills or
concern for customer data. Trusting an Excel spreadsheet and a bad
link to Google Checkout is a red flag on top of a flashing red light
for trouble though and I was concerned. There would be no recourse for
the consumer in this case due to the non-integrated nature of the
ordering system and you would lose your money if you never received
product without much recourse.

I try to keep real life and Internet life separate. When I'm here I
just want to talk about tea, honestly. I really enjoy the folks here
and would love to see tons more, if I offended anyone I'm sorry. It's
because I care that I tend to go after this stuff. No one asked me to,
and I'm not some knight in shining armor or pretending to be with some
delusions of grandeur.

I'm tired of the drama, and the distraction from the real point...
Tea. This is my last post on the subject.

Dominic,

I empathize completely with your position. You (and others) have been
burned and you don't want to go through that again, AND you want to
alert others to the dangers. I appreciate that. My only issue with the
recent responses to the spammers/newbie posters is the fact that they
were greeted with both guns blazing. Perhaps this poster is a scammer;
perhaps not. While I consider myself a jaded cynic, I would prefer to
think that most people are just oblivious and not up to something
sinister. A polite "this type of posting is not welcome here; refer to
the FAQ" should take care of it. Anything more just adds fuel to the
fire and invites third parties to jump in with their two cents (yes,
like I did) and we end up discussing whether advertising is allowed or
not.

I understand where you're coming from. OTOH, if someone is going to go
to a brand new web site with no track record and give them personal
and financial information, then they could probably stand to learn
from their own mistakes. I don't buy from ebay sellers with little
feedback; I wouldn't buy from a web site that just popped up. But
that's just me.

Alan