So I do see that there are some early spring greens coming out already in a
couple of places (Yunnan Sourcing for one)...since I am unfamiliar with the
rainy season in China, could someone tell me...are these teas considered
pre-pre-qing ming? Or...how are they thought of? The time where there isn't
any tea being made anywhere in India or China seems to be very short to me
these days.

In relation to that, I am guessing the tea bushes go dormant for a few
months, when they start to bud again is it the very first leaves they put
out that are considered so wonderful? Is there such a thing as being too
early of a green tea?

Melinda

So...is this 1) a stupid question that no-one wants to bother with, 2) a
heretical question, how dare I ask it, or 3) a question that no-one actually
has an answer to? I thought it made sense, after all, if early greens are so
much more desireable and expensive, it stands to reason that someone
somewhere will try to make a spring green that might not be "all that" and
try to foist it off because it's early rather than anything else.

Melinda



"Melinda" > wrote in message
...
> So I do see that there are some early spring greens coming out already in
> a couple of places (Yunnan Sourcing for one)...since I am unfamiliar with
> the rainy season in China, could someone tell me...are these teas
> considered pre-pre-qing ming? Or...how are they thought of? The time where
> there isn't any tea being made anywhere in India or China seems to be very
> short to me these days.
>
> In relation to that, I am guessing the tea bushes go dormant for a few
> months, when they start to bud again is it the very first leaves they put
> out that are considered so wonderful? Is there such a thing as being too
> early of a green tea?
>
> Melinda
>

"Melinda" > writes:

> So...is this 1) a stupid question that no-one wants to bother with, 2) a
> heretical question, how dare I ask it, or 3) a question that no-one actually
> has an answer to? I thought it made sense, after all, if early greens are so
> much more desireable and expensive, it stands to reason that someone
> somewhere will try to make a spring green that might not be "all that" and
> try to foist it off because it's early rather than anything else.

I've heard it said that, due to the premium early green teas bring in
China, tea agronomists have developed cultivars that leaf out very
early but yield a mediocre cup. How true this is, I don't know.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Mar 10, 4:45 pm, "Melinda" > wrote:
> So...is this 1) a stupid question that no-one wants to bother with, 2) a
> heretical question, how dare I ask it, or 3) a question that no-one actually
> has an answer to? I thought it made sense, after all, if early greens are so
> much more desireable and expensive, it stands to reason that someone
> somewhere will try to make a spring green that might not be "all that" and
> try to foist it off because it's early rather than anything else.
>
> Melinda
>
> "Melinda" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > So I do see that there are some early spring greens coming out already in
> > a couple of places (Yunnan Sourcing for one)...since I am unfamiliar with
> > the rainy season in China, could someone tell me...are these teas
> > considered pre-pre-qing ming? Or...how are they thought of? The time where
> > there isn't any tea being made anywhere in India or China seems to be very
> > short to me these days.
>
> > In relation to that, I am guessing the tea bushes go dormant for a few
> > months, when they start to bud again is it the very first leaves they put
> > out that are considered so wonderful? Is there such a thing as being too
> > early of a green tea?
>
> > Melinda

Honestly I don't really concern myself with all the first flush stuff
anymore, I just buy what is good - not new. I also only really keep
track of a few of my personal favorite spring teas, and not the entire
industry so India isn't even on my list and only two teas from
China... Japan is more where I keep an eye for something fresh and
special.

Rarity used to be a game I played, but I quickly realized that rare or
"first" doesn't always amount to much but an empty wallet. Sometimes
some new fresh green is worth it, but mostly it is just hype IMO. It's
worth trying a few each year but I wouldn't stock my cupboard solely
on FF/First Picked Spring's.

- Dominic

On Mar 11, 5:45*am, "Melinda" > wrote:
> So...is this 1) a stupid question that no-one wants to bother with, 2) a
> heretical question, how dare I ask it, or 3) a question that no-one actually
> has an answer to? I thought it made sense, after all, if early greens are so
> much more desireable and expensive, it stands to reason that someone
> somewhere will try to make a spring green that might not be "all that" and
> try to foist it off because it's early rather than anything else.
>
> Melinda
>
> "Melinda" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > So I do see that there are some early spring greens coming out already in
> > a couple of places (Yunnan Sourcing for one)...since I am unfamiliar with
> > the rainy season in China, could someone tell me...are these teas
> > considered pre-pre-qing ming? Or...how are they thought of? The time where
> > there isn't any tea being made anywhere in India or China seems to be very
> > short to me these days.
>
> > In relation to that, I am guessing the tea bushes go dormant for a few
> > months, when they start to bud again is it the very first leaves they put
> > out that are considered so wonderful? Is there such a thing as being too
> > early of a green tea?
>
> > Melinda- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"Early" tea is generally either one of two cases from my experience in
China:

1. Last season's leftovers re-cooked and repackaged.
2. Lesser quality stuff usually pawned off on folks willing to pay
for it.

Stick with the standard picking times for your famous teas and you
usually won't go wrong.

Some good sense there, Dominic.

My retail company Nothing But Tea Ltd based in the UK sells around the
world (34 countries to date) and our second biggest market is the USA
from which I have noticed over the past five years increasing clamour
for teas that are "earliest", "youngest", "first", "this season's".
Many of the teas we sell are better for some aging - our hand made
Georgian teas are an example, where given the choice of a range of age
from our stock, I prefer drinking ones at least two years old - but
impossible to sell a 2005 season Georgian into the US, already we are
being asked for 2008 season samples - unobtainable until June.

Nigel at Teacraft


On Mar 10, 11:31*pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> Honestly I don't really concern myself with all the first flush stuff
> anymore, I just buy what is good - not new.
> Rarity used to be a game I played, but I quickly realized that rare or
> "first" doesn't always amount to much but an empty wallet. Sometimes
> some new fresh green is worth it, but mostly it is just hype IMO. It's
> worth trying a few each year but I wouldn't stock my cupboard solely
> on FF/First Picked Spring's.

Nigel > writes:

> [...]
> My retail company Nothing But Tea Ltd based in the UK sells around the
> world (34 countries to date) and our second biggest market is the USA
> from which I have noticed over the past five years increasing clamour
> for teas that are "earliest", "youngest", "first", "this season's".
> Many of the teas we sell are better for some aging - our hand made
> Georgian teas are an example, where given the choice of a range of age
> from our stock, I prefer drinking ones at least two years old - but
> impossible to sell a 2005 season Georgian into the US, already we are
> being asked for 2008 season samples - unobtainable until June.

Have you given thought to addressing this issue directly on your
company's website? Your customers may already be buying aged oolongs,
not to mention Pu'ers.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

"Nigel" > wrote in message
...
Some good sense there, Dominic.

My retail company Nothing But Tea Ltd based in the UK sells around the
world (34 countries to date) and our second biggest market is the USA
from which I have noticed over the past five years increasing clamour
for teas that are "earliest", "youngest", "first", "this season's".
Many of the teas we sell are better for some aging - our hand made
Georgian teas are an example, where given the choice of a range of age
from our stock, I prefer drinking ones at least two years old - but
impossible to sell a 2005 season Georgian into the US, already we are
being asked for 2008 season samples - unobtainable until June.

Nigel at Teacraft


This also brings up another point for me... I've seen some places selling
older (meaning last years or year before last's) red teas, and so I am torn
between what I thought was "conventional wisdom" of the fresher the tea the
better, or this "aging" issue. I know the oolongs are aged, the puerh is
aged, I guess some of the reds are too. I don't think anyone could age a
green sucessfully though, but who knows, I could be proved wrong some time.
I do wonder what an aged Yinzhen would taste like, were one to be able to
keep it unfaded...sort of an older honey taste I imagine.

Also there are those countries that may have no dormant period...Kenyan or
African teas? Nigel, do some of the African tea bushes produce all year
around?

Melinda

"Melinda" > writes:

> [...]
> Also there are those countries that may have no dormant period...Kenyan or
> African teas? Nigel, do some of the African tea bushes produce all year
> around?

I don't know about Africa, but South India is a year-round producer.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Mar 12, 10:30*am, "Melinda" > wrote:
> "Nigel" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> Some good sense there, Dominic.
>
> My retail company Nothing But Tea Ltd based in the UK sells around the
> world (34 countries to date) and our second biggest market is the USA
> from which I have noticed over the past five years increasing clamour
> for teas that are "earliest", "youngest", "first", "this season's".
> Many of the teas we sell are better for some aging - our hand made
> Georgian teas are an example, where given the choice of a range of age
> from our stock, I prefer drinking ones at least two years old - but
> impossible to sell a 2005 season Georgian into the US, already we are
> being asked for 2008 season samples - unobtainable until June.
>
> Nigel at Teacraft
>
> This also brings up another point for me... I've seen some places selling
> older (meaning last years or year before last's) red teas, and so I am torn
> between what I thought was "conventional wisdom" of the fresher the tea the
> better, or this "aging" issue. I know the oolongs are aged, the puerh is
> aged, I guess some of the reds are too. I don't think anyone could age a
> green sucessfully though, but who knows, I could be proved wrong some time..
> I do wonder what an aged Yinzhen would taste like, were one to be able to
> keep it unfaded...sort of an older honey taste I imagine.
>
> Also there are those countries that may have no dormant period...Kenyan or
> African teas? Nigel, do some of the African tea bushes produce all year
> around?
>
> Melinda

This wasn't done on purpose, but I found some old sencha (I think it
was old when I bought it.) It had turned from the grassy taste I
originally wanted to a lovely flowery aroma and taste- slightly clover
like. I can imagine somebody doing that on purpose. Toci

On Mar 12, 10:32*am, Lewis Perin > wrote:

> Have you given thought to addressing this issue directly on your
> company's website? *> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin

I second Lew's suggestion. There is no tea product we Americans need
more than education! And I think most all of us are very eager to
learn. I know I have purchased a previous year Yunnan Gold because
part of the description stated that it was best X years aged, a
concept that was new to me.

Aged green teas? I very much doubt it. The received wisdom is that the
delicate flavour of Korean green tea (at least) goes away after two
years at most, and sometimes much earlier. There is also said to be a
possibility of restoring it at least in part by gently heating the tea
as in the last part of the drying process. But no one has ever
indicated to my knowledge that green tea could get better with time.
My favourite Korean maker is now producing a yellow tea that 'ages' in
a big pot for several months after the initial drying, but I think
that is to allow a gradual oxidation process to continue.

When it comes to aged oolongs, which have recently come to my notice
(from Taiwan, 15 years old or perhaps more), could someone tell us if
these are simply left lying around or if they are (as I suspect) re-
heated regularly to maintain dryness. I assume that oolongs, like
puerhs, would not age correctly if kept hermetically sealed?

When it comes to puerhs, is it not true that the total collapse of
trust in the age claimed for them by merchants has encouraged many
people to look for recently made puerhs that they plan to store and
age for themselves?

Br Anthony

On 2008-03-14, An Sonjae > wrote:

> Aged green teas? I very much doubt it. The received wisdom is that the
> delicate flavour of Korean green tea (at least) goes away after two
> years at most, and sometimes much earlier.

Well as I understand it, green pu'erh is essentially green tea - the
kill green process is the same, and it's not bruised or oxidized first.

I don't think that aged "green tea" (other than that) is very popular,
but I don't think that means it couldn't be good. It definitely wouldn't
have the same type of flavor as a younger tea, but that doesn't mean
that it couldn't evolve into something interesting over time. There
would probably be a period where it was simply stale, and would taste
the same as when it was new, only flatter, less flavorful, and less
interesting.

I have some wild Korean green tea that I've left sitting around for a
couple of years - if it keeps on sitting around for a couple more, I'll
try it out and see how it is.

> When it comes to aged oolongs, which have recently come to my notice
> (from Taiwan, 15 years old or perhaps more), could someone tell us if
> these are simply left lying around or if they are (as I suspect) re-
> heated regularly to maintain dryness.

I believe some people age teas with minimal or no re-roasting, but
unless kept very dry and pretty airtight, the tea will probably sour
this way. Generally, aged oolongs should be re-roasted every 2-6 years
or so, to remove excess moisture.

> I assume that oolongs, like puerhs, would not age correctly if kept
> hermetically sealed?

Storage varies, and depends on your climate and type of tea / level of
roasting, but I think you do want a pretty good seal. Especially with
greener oolongs, I think people frequently use a sealed porcelain jar
and then put candle wax over the top to keep moisture out. In Fu jian,
some of the aged teas I saw were kept in large tightly sealed,
double-lidded metal jars with a small lid - probably lead and / or tin.

But I've also seen pu'erh style cakes made with oolongs (especially wu
yi yan cha, like shui xian), as well as a fruit (maybe a pomelo or
something) stuffed with oolong tea. I believe I was told that the fruit
is stuffed with tea and hung on a tree (where it gets some little bugs
in it, IIRC). I don't know for sure, but I imagine these are aged in a
manner closer to the way pu'erh is aged, and probably with more
moisture. Probably originally kept more for medicinal purposes than for
taste (as a lot of aged oolong originally was).

Not sure if a total seal is good for more heavily roasted teas (I
believe some people use a full jar with a looser lid), but you do want a
dryer and less breathable environment than with pu'erh, at least that's
what I've read mostly. Like anything else, there's a lot of information
out there, and much of it is contradictory. I think that's more a
product of there being multiple ways to go about it than one person
being wrong and another person being right.

Here in Los Angeles is not such a fantastic climate for aging pu'erh,
because it's very dry, but I have heard several people say it's a good
climate for aging oolongs. I've been kind of informally and
unscientifically experimenting with aging teas in different types of
containers.

> When it comes to puerhs, is it not true that the total collapse of
> trust in the age claimed for them by merchants has encouraged many
> people to look for recently made puerhs that they plan to store and
> age for themselves?

Well I think most people (myself included) take merchants' assurances
about the age of pu'erh with a grain (or three) of salt... in many
cases, the tea has passed through many sets of hands, and with tea
that's older than 10 or 15 years, it's hard to ever know for certain.

That said, it's hard for people who live somewhere that's not the
greatest aging climate to buy too much tea for aging, and for green
pu'erh to be really drinkable, it needs to have a lot more age (15-20+
years) than I want to wait to drink some tea. So I try to buy aged
pu'erh from vendors I trust.

Of course it's hard to know the exact age of tea, but it's difficult to
fake the taste beyond a certain point. And even if you have the wrong
idea about a tea's age or pedigree, if it tastes good, it tastes good.

w

Will Yardley > writes:

> On 2008-03-14, An Sonjae > wrote:
>
> > Aged green teas? I very much doubt it. The received wisdom is that the
> > delicate flavour of Korean green tea (at least) goes away after two
> > years at most, and sometimes much earlier.
>
> Well as I understand it, green pu'erh is essentially green tea - the
> kill green process is the same, and it's not bruised or oxidized first.

No, I think the kill-green process for green Pu'er is gentler or, to
look at it differently, less complete. The enzymes in the tea leaf
that contribute to (one kind of) fermentation/oxidation aren't
completely destroyed. So the fermentation, given the right
environment, will continue, but slowly. So-called black Pu'er starts
with the same partially-kill-greened leaf, using heat and humidity to
speed the fermentation.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Mar 14, 3:25 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Will Yardley > writes:
> > On 2008-03-14, An Sonjae > wrote:
>
> > > Aged green teas? I very much doubt it. The received wisdom is that the
> > > delicate flavour of Korean green tea (at least) goes away after two
> > > years at most, and sometimes much earlier.
>
> > Well as I understand it, green pu'erh is essentially green tea - the
> > kill green process is the same, and it's not bruised or oxidized first.
>
> No, I think the kill-green process for green Pu'er is gentler or, to
> look at it differently, less complete. The enzymes in the tea leaf
> that contribute to (one kind of) fermentation/oxidation aren't
> completely destroyed. So the fermentation, given the right
> environment, will continue, but slowly. So-called black Pu'er starts
> with the same partially-kill-greened leaf, using heat and humidity to
> speed the fermentation.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

Yes, "aged" green tea isn't going to really improve in any way I can
see... at least none of the greens I drink. I can taste a notable drop
off after about 3-4 months even with good storage and I really can't
drink them much past a year or year and a half. I've had some jasmine
pearls that held up to two years without too much trouble or loss. I
have had some straggler packets of green tea lost to the sands of time
(2, 3, 4+ years) but none were ever better for it.

Chinese greens are a different story and while I've explored a lot of
them now I still couldn't speak for all of them. I'd imagine it safe
to say that greens just go stale and really never bounce back to
something desirable.

- Dominic