Is there such a thing as pu-er that is too old?

I don't have experience drinking much pu-er, mostly what I've had is
green and/or cooked pu. What I've tried to imagine is something that
has a flavor somewhere in between those two extremes--if you take all
of the "green" flavor away, will the tea be diminished in some way?
I've looked at pictures of some of those really really old 1930s or
1950s cakes and I can't help but wonder if at some point the tea just
doesn't lose some of its character and complexity. Anyone with better
experience have preferences for a certain age of tea that is something
less than "as old as I can get it"?

cha bing

On Mar 29, 10:06*am, cha bing > wrote:
> Is there such a thing as pu-er that is too old?
>
http://www.cnpuerh.com/wh/read-3431.html
In the 60s when cleaning out the Forbidden City, workers found nearly
2 tons of balled pu-er tea from the size of tennis balls 2 large
pumpkins. These teas are presently kept in the Hangzhou Agricultural
University & Forbidden City museum. Samples of the tea were tested, &
the general opinion was that it has color, but the fragrance & taste
are thin. The complexity of the tea was gone. Some experts considered
this 2 be the ultimate taste of pu-er: ethereal, now-u-taste-it-now-u-
don't flavors - the complexity of the character has submerged but
subtly it is still there; but some think that the leaves had oxidized
beyond drinkable brew.
Zhuang-tse teaches us about the point of diminishing return, & this
probably it; only most of us are not as old as some of the aged pu-er
2 say at which point the tea is no longer drinkable. I have sampled pu-
er that was from 1920s, & they are still very much drinkable, so I
think it is safe to say that pu-er as early as 1920s can still be
drunk.

On the other hand, one cannot ignore the quality & production process
of the pu-er - a low quality maocha & poor production process pu-er
made in the recent years might not even last a decade.

Kevo

On Mar 29, 9:06*am, cha bing > wrote:
> Is there such a thing as pu-er that is too old?
>
> I don't have experience drinking much pu-er, mostly what I've had is
> green and/or cooked pu. What I've tried to imagine is something that
> has a flavor somewhere in between those two extremes--if you take all
> of the "green" flavor away, will the tea be diminished in some way?
> I've looked at pictures of some of those really really old 1930s or
> 1950s cakes and I can't help but wonder if at some point the tea just
> doesn't lose some of its character and complexity. Anyone with better
> experience have preferences for a certain age of tea that is something
> less than "as old as I can get it"?
>
> cha bing

Yes, all puerh teas will eventually peak at one time or another after
which things will naturally go downhill. But that said an important
factor is storage and whether that aged tea is being cared for in the
correct manner. There is an article that is intended to help clarify a
few points on this matter. If you are interested it is available at
http://www.puerhcha.com/Pu-erh%20Tea...nce_of_Age.htm

Varat

On Mar 28, 8:43*pm, Kevo > wrote:
> On Mar 29, 10:06*am, cha bing > wrote:> Is there such a thing as pu-er that is too old?
>
> http://www.cnpuerh.com/wh/read-3431.html
> In the 60s when cleaning out the Forbidden City, workers found nearly
> 2 tons of balled pu-er tea from the size of tennis balls 2 large
> pumpkins. These teas are presently kept in the Hangzhou Agricultural
> University & Forbidden City museum. Samples of the tea were tested, &
> the general opinion was that it has color, but the fragrance & taste
> are thin. The complexity of the tea was gone. Some experts considered
> this 2 be the ultimate taste of pu-er: ethereal, now-u-taste-it-now-u-
> don't flavors - the complexity of the character has submerged but
> subtly it is still there; but some think that the leaves had oxidized
> beyond drinkable brew.
> Zhuang-tse teaches us about the point of diminishing return, & this
> probably it; only most of us are not as old as some of the aged pu-er
> 2 say at which point the tea is no longer drinkable. I have sampled pu-
> er that was from 1920s, & they are still very much drinkable, so I
> think it is safe to say that pu-er as early as 1920s can still be
> drunk.
>
> On the other hand, one cannot ignore the quality & production process
> of the pu-er - a low quality maocha & poor production process pu-er
> made in the recent years might not even last a decade.
>
> Kevo

So sorry, I meant to send this reply to cha-bing....
Shen

On Mar 28, 7:06*pm, cha bing > wrote:
> Is there such a thing as pu-er that is too old?
>
> I don't have experience drinking much pu-er, mostly what I've had is
> green and/or cooked pu. What I've tried to imagine is something that
> has a flavor somewhere in between those two extremes--if you take all
> of the "green" flavor away, will the tea be diminished in some way?
> I've looked at pictures of some of those really really old 1930s or
> 1950s cakes and I can't help but wonder if at some point the tea just
> doesn't lose some of its character and complexity. Anyone with better
> experience have preferences for a certain age of tea that is something
> less than "as old as I can get it"?
>
> cha bing

Cha Bing,
I suggest going to Mike Petro's site for the very best advice on pu-
erh (this guy really knows his stuff) - www.pu-erh.net. He's not
selling anything.
Varat's pu-erh's are waaaay overpriced.
Shen

Shen has a great advice for Cha Bing's questions:

Visit Mike Petro's website at http://www.pu-erh.net & you might find
the answers there!

Kevo

Kevo > writes:

> On Mar 29, 10:06*am, cha bing > wrote:
> > Is there such a thing as pu-er that is too old?
>
> [...1920s tea isn't necessarily too old...]
>
> On the other hand, one cannot ignore the quality & production
> process of the pu-er - a low quality maocha & poor production
> process pu-er made in the recent years might not even last a decade.

This sounds reasonable, but I wonder how much is really known about
how a Pu'er's characteristics at birth influence its quality decades
later. Is there a way to know what some of the great old teas were
like as maocha? Were they "quality tea" by standards we would
recognize?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Mar 30, 8:08*am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Kevo > writes:
> > On Mar 29, 10:06*am, cha bing > wrote:
> > > Is there such a thing as pu-er that is too old?
>
> > [...1920s tea isn't necessarily too old...]
>
> > On the other hand, one cannot ignore the quality & production
> > process of the pu-er - a low quality maocha & poor production
> > process pu-er made in the recent years might not even last a decade.
>
> This sounds reasonable, but I wonder how much is really known about
> how a Pu'er's characteristics at birth influence its quality decades
> later. *Is there a way to know what some of the great old teas were
> like as maocha? *Were they "quality tea" by standards we would
> recognize?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

Hi Lew,

How we determine boils down 2 how much we know about the specific type
of tea, isn't it?

& you raised 1 important question:

By what standards do you recognize make a good pu-er?

Kevo

Kevo > writes:

> On Mar 30, 8:08*am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > Kevo > writes:
> > > On Mar 29, 10:06*am, cha bing > wrote:
> > > > Is there such a thing as pu-er that is too old?
> >
> > > [...1920s tea isn't necessarily too old...]
> >
> > > On the other hand, one cannot ignore the quality & production
> > > process of the pu-er - a low quality maocha & poor production
> > > process pu-er made in the recent years might not even last a decade.
> >
> > This sounds reasonable, but I wonder how much is really known about
> > how a Pu'er's characteristics at birth influence its quality decades
> > later. *Is there a way to know what some of the great old teas were
> > like as maocha? *Were they "quality tea" by standards we would
> > recognize?
>
> How we determine boils down 2 how much we know about the specific type
> of tea, isn't it?

Yes, exactly. I don't recall ever reading anything persuasive about
what the various blends of maocha that went into historic cakes were
like. By "persuasive", I mean based on contemporary observation and
tasting, not extrapolation back from what the aged cakes are like
now. But I read about tea in English...

> & you raised 1 important question:
>
> By what standards do you recognize make a good pu-er?

ISO-7542-PU, principally.

Seriously, this is a big subject. But roughly, I would say that I
like complexity, strength, balance, smoothness, involvement of the
whole sensory apparatus from the tip of the tongue through the throat,
and support of many varied steeps. Do I expect all of these,
especially in a young Pu'er? Not really, but I'm willing to be
surprised.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Mar 31, 4:34*am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Kevo > writes:
> > On Mar 30, 8:08*am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > > Kevo > writes:
> > > > On Mar 29, 10:06*am, cha bing > wrote:
> > > > > Is there such a thing as pu-er that is too old?
>
> > > > [...1920s tea isn't necessarily too old...]
>
> > > > On the other hand, one cannot ignore the quality & production
> > > > process of the pu-er - a low quality maocha & poor production
> > > > process pu-er made in the recent years might not even last a decade.
>
> > > This sounds reasonable, but I wonder how much is really known about
> > > how a Pu'er's characteristics at birth influence its quality decades
> > > later. *Is there a way to know what some of the great old teas were
> > > like as maocha? *Were they "quality tea" by standards we would
> > > recognize?
>
> > How we determine boils down 2 how much we know about the specific type
> > of tea, isn't it?
>
> Yes, exactly. *I don't recall ever reading anything persuasive about
> what the various blends of maocha that went into historic cakes were
> like. *By "persuasive", I mean based on contemporary observation and
> tasting, not extrapolation back from what the aged cakes are like
> now. *But I read about tea in English...
>
> > & you raised 1 important question:
>
> > By what standards do you recognize make a good pu-er?
>
> ISO-7542-PU, principally.
>
> Seriously, this is a big subject. *But roughly, I would say that I
> like complexity, strength, balance, smoothness, involvement of the
> whole sensory apparatus from the tip of the tongue through the throat,
> and support of many varied steeps. *Do I expect all of these,
> especially in a young Pu'er? *Not really, but I'm willing to be
> surprised.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

Hi Lew, indeed! Principally this is a big subject, in reality, it is
also a very complex subject as well.

ISO-7542-PU is not a good pu-er 2 be cited for standards, IMHO. From
its first production in the 80s 2 present, the only things I can say
is constant with this tea are that the flavors are typical of
cultivated plants in the Meng Hai region.

Quality: A young pu-er made from the cultivated plants would probably
give you the complexity involving the whole sensory apparatus that you
write about, but a young pu-er made from old, wild trees might not -
that may not be an indicator of good pu-er or poor pu-er, it is just
that the maocha used are different.

Strength: A young Yi Wu pure region pu-er might taste close 2 being
bland, a young Yi Wu blended with other types of maocha might taste
fuller in the mouth & lasts more steeps. The taste of the young pu-er
might increase in strength in the years 2 come, but so might the
blended one. So strength may not necessarily indicate a good pu-er.

Balance: I don't understand what you mean by this qualifier...

Smoothness: Similarly, a young wild grown arbor pu-er might give you a
smoother taste than one from the cultivated stock; while an aged twig
& large leaves 40 years old pu-er might give you a smoother taste than
a young banzhang from the cultivated stock. Does that make the old tea
is good quality tea? I don't think so, it is smooth because it is well
aged...

If you do not really expect all of these in a pu-er, especially in a
young pu-er, then how do you determine if the pu-er you have is a good
pu-er, & that it will age well?
Or do you believe that a good pu-er is one that tastes awful when
young & mellow when aged?

IMPO, a good pu-er must 1st fulfill the criteria 2 age well, & this
criteria must have 2 main factors: correct processing of the maocha -
we know there are 2 main types of Yun Nan maocha: Dian Lü & Dian Qing.
Dian Lü was the main maocha produce in Yun Nan, for making green tea,
Dian Qing is the main maocha produce in Yun Nan persuing the Pu-er
heat, & used in the making of pu-er. If a pu-er is processed with Dian
Lü maocha, then while it tastes good when newly made, it might not age
well. The other factor is the aging method, which is a complicated
discussion in itself.

Kevo

Kevo > writes:

> On Mar 31, 4:34*am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > Kevo > writes:
> > > [...]
> > > By what standards do you recognize make a good pu-er?
> >
> > ISO-7542-PU, principally.
> >
> > Seriously, this is a big subject. *But roughly, I would say that I
> > like complexity, strength, balance, smoothness, involvement of the
> > whole sensory apparatus from the tip of the tongue through the throat,
> > and support of many varied steeps. *Do I expect all of these,
> > especially in a young Pu'er? *Not really, but I'm willing to be
> > surprised.
>
> Hi Lew, indeed! Principally this is a big subject, in reality, it is
> also a very complex subject as well.
>
> ISO-7542-PU is not a good pu-er 2 be cited for standards, IMHO. From
> its first production in the 80s 2 present, the only things I can say
> is constant with this tea are that the flavors are typical of
> cultivated plants in the Meng Hai region.

Sorry about the nerdy joke: there is no such thing as ISO-7542-PU.
And I don't have any particular allegiance to Menghai's 7542 series.

> Quality: A young pu-er made from the cultivated plants would probably
> give you the complexity involving the whole sensory apparatus that you
> write about, but a young pu-er made from old, wild trees might not -
> that may not be an indicator of good pu-er or poor pu-er, it is just
> that the maocha used are different.
>
> Strength: A young Yi Wu pure region pu-er might taste close 2 being
> bland, a young Yi Wu blended with other types of maocha might taste
> fuller in the mouth & lasts more steeps. The taste of the young pu-er
> might increase in strength in the years 2 come, but so might the
> blended one. So strength may not necessarily indicate a good pu-er.

I wasn't claiming to be able to predict how a tea will behave when
aged based on how good it is to drink now. That's the real problem,
and I'm skeptical of what I've read on the subject, as I said earlier.

> Balance: I don't understand what you mean by this qualifier...

By "balance", admittedly a vague term, I mean that the tea shouldn't
have too much of one attribute without some countervailing quality.
If it's bitter in its principal taste, there should be sweetness too,
perhaps in its aftertaste. If it's astringent on the tongue, there
should be softness or smoothness somewhere else, maybe in the throat.

> Smoothness: Similarly, a young wild grown arbor pu-er might give you a
> smoother taste than one from the cultivated stock; while an aged twig
> & large leaves 40 years old pu-er might give you a smoother taste than
> a young banzhang from the cultivated stock. Does that make the old tea
> is good quality tea? I don't think so, it is smooth because it is well
> aged...

Right. I don't see the point in comparing new and old tea. And as
you don't exactly say out loud, it's at least conceivable that, given
enough time in good storage conditions (another big subject), *any*
decent Pu'er will be great to drink.

> If you do not really expect all of these in a pu-er, especially in a
> young pu-er, then how do you determine if the pu-er you have is a good
> pu-er, & that it will age well?
> Or do you believe that a good pu-er is one that tastes awful when
> young & mellow when aged?

I. Don't. Know.

> IMPO, a good pu-er must 1st fulfill the criteria 2 age well, & this
> criteria must have 2 main factors: correct processing of the maocha -
> we know there are 2 main types of Yun Nan maocha: Dian Lü & Dian Qing.
> Dian Lü was the main maocha produce in Yun Nan, for making green tea,
> Dian Qing is the main maocha produce in Yun Nan persuing the Pu-er
> heat, & used in the making of pu-er. If a pu-er is processed with Dian
> Lü maocha, then while it tastes good when newly made, it might not age
> well.

As I understand it, these are two different manufacturing processes
(Dian Qing not being fully kill-greened) rather than two different
cultivars. Do you agree?

> The other factor is the aging method, which is a complicated
> discussion in itself.

Amen, brother.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Mar 31, 10:19*pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
>
> Sorry about the nerdy joke: there is no such thing as ISO-7542-PU.
> And I don't have any particular allegiance to Menghai's 7542 series.
>
Haha, you just gave away a good joke...ISO-8582-PU, anyone?

>
> I wasn't claiming to be able to predict how a tea will behave when
> aged based on how good it is to drink now. *That's the real problem,
> and I'm skeptical of what I've read on the subject, as I said earlier.
>
I can't either, but I know of people who can - 1 told me from looking
at the pu-er disc what 2 expect then, 6 months later, & 5 years later;
the 5th year was last year, & so far she is correct.

> By "balance", admittedly a vague term, I mean that the tea shouldn't
> have too much of one attribute without some countervailing quality.
> If it's bitter in its principal taste, there should be sweetness too,
> perhaps in its aftertaste. *If it's astringent on the tongue, there
> should be softness or smoothness somewhere else, maybe in the throat.
>
I c, understood now. Some of the 7542 cakes, from around the period of
1988-1992, have a bitterness that lingers at the top of the throat
that does not go away. Is this poor quality then? Some say this tiny
bit of bitterness will go away in another 10 years time...

> Right. *I don't see the point in comparing new and old tea. *And as
> you don't exactly say out loud, it's at least conceivable that, given
> enough time in good storage conditions (another big subject), *any*
> decent Pu'er will be great to drink.
>
It attempts 2 answer your earlier post...the aged pu-er does not
appear 2 qualify as 'quality' tea by the present standards. 1 of the
best example is the Cultural Revolution Wen Ge bricks, or the early
Bao Yan mushroom pu-er. These by present standards do not qualify as
'quality' tea, they were basic rough tea meant 2 quench the
thirst...yet now, these are prized..
As for storage, that's is a big subject...most of the aged teas that
we so prized now did not go through a systematic or monitored storage
process...

> > If you do not really expect all of these in a pu-er, especially in a
> > young pu-er, then how do you determine if the pu-er you have is a good
> > pu-er, & that it will age well?
> > Or do you believe that a good pu-er is one that tastes awful when
> > young & mellow when aged?
>
> I. *Don't. *Know.
>
I. M. Waitg. 2. Find. Out.

> > IMPO, a good pu-er must 1st fulfill the criteria 2 age well, & this
> > criteria must have 2 main factors: correct processing of the maocha -
> > we know there are 2 main types of Yun Nan maocha: Dian Lü & Dian Qing.
> > Dian Lü was the main maocha produce in Yun Nan, for making green tea,
> > Dian Qing is the main maocha produce in Yun Nan persuing the Pu-er
> > heat, & used in the making of pu-er. If a pu-er is processed with Dian
> > Lü maocha, then while it tastes good when newly made, it might not age
> > well.
>
> As I understand it, these are two different manufacturing processes
> (Dian Qing not being fully kill-greened) rather than two different
> cultivars. *Do you agree?
>
Yes, it is a manufacturing process.
No. There are cultivars that are better suited for Dian Lü (especially
those cross-bred cultivars) & some better as Dian Qing...

> > The other factor is the aging method, which is a complicated
> > discussion in itself.
>
> Amen, brother.
>
Amen indeed.

Kevo

Kevo > writes:

> On Mar 31, 10:19*pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > [...]
> > I wasn't claiming to be able to predict how a tea will behave when
> > aged based on how good it is to drink now. *That's the real problem,
> > and I'm skeptical of what I've read on the subject, as I said earlier.
> >
> I can't either, but I know of people who can - 1 told me from looking
> at the pu-er disc what 2 expect then, 6 months later, & 5 years later;
> the 5th year was last year, & so far she is correct.

Wow. Would you be willing to try to get her to put her
prognostication techniques into words?

At the risk of indirectly asking a woman's age, I wonder if you could
satisfy my curiosity: While five years is impressive, since the big
gains in a Pu'er only happen after, say, twenty years, has she been
able to establish a record of prediction on that scale?

> > By "balance", admittedly a vague term, I mean that the tea shouldn't
> > have too much of one attribute without some countervailing quality.
> > If it's bitter in its principal taste, there should be sweetness too,
> > perhaps in its aftertaste. *If it's astringent on the tongue, there
> > should be softness or smoothness somewhere else, maybe in the throat.
> >
> I c, understood now. Some of the 7542 cakes, from around the period of
> 1988-1992, have a bitterness that lingers at the top of the throat
> that does not go away. Is this poor quality then? Some say this tiny
> bit of bitterness will go away in another 10 years time...

If you think of balance as the position on an axis, I don't think it
needs to be dead center. I actually enjoy a certain amount of
bitterness in tea.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Apr 1, 2:01*am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
>
> Wow. *Would you be willing to try to get her to put her
> prognostication techniques into words?
>
> At the risk of indirectly asking a woman's age, I wonder if you could
> satisfy my curiosity: While five years is impressive, since the big
> gains in a Pu'er only happen after, say, twenty years, has she been
> able to establish a record of prediction on that scale?
>
She did, but I don't think it was prediction, more of judgement based
on a wealth of knowledge in pu-er. Is the big gain in 20 years your
own prognostication? From what I know, pu-er maturity speed varies
from place 2 place, from storage method 2 storage method, from maocha
quality 2 maocha quality, from processing method 2 processing method.
She did tell me how the pu-er might mature into, but I can only tell
you if she's spot on in 2022.

> If you think of balance as the position on an axis, I don't think it
> needs to be dead center. *I actually enjoy a certain amount of
> bitterness in tea.
>
A certain amount of bitterness in tea is 2 be expected, but a
lingering bitterness that would not go away? Do you accept this as a
criteria for good quality tea?

Kevo

Kevo > writes:

> On Apr 1, 2:01*am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> >
> > Wow. *Would you be willing to try to get her to put her
> > prognostication techniques into words?
> >
> > At the risk of indirectly asking a woman's age, I wonder if you could
> > satisfy my curiosity: While five years is impressive, since the big
> > gains in a Pu'er only happen after, say, twenty years, has she been
> > able to establish a record of prediction on that scale?
> >
> She did, but I don't think it was prediction, more of judgement based
> on a wealth of knowledge in pu-er. Is the big gain in 20 years your
> own prognostication?

No, it's my parroting of stuff I hear.

> From what I know, pu-er maturity speed varies from place 2 place,
> from storage method 2 storage method, from maocha quality 2 maocha
> quality, from processing method 2 processing method.

I don't doubt it. 20 years isn't a constant of nature.

> She did tell me how the pu-er might mature into, but I can only tell
> you if she's spot on in 2022.
>
> > If you think of balance as the position on an axis, I don't think it
> > needs to be dead center. *I actually enjoy a certain amount of
> > bitterness in tea.
> >
> A certain amount of bitterness in tea is 2 be expected, but a
> lingering bitterness that would not go away? Do you accept this as a
> criteria for good quality tea?

A bitterness that persists after swallowing? That's kind of
disturbing; I suppose I would count that as a defect.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html