I followed up a reference on drinking tea to dissolve kidney stones
and came to the following about kombucha.

(quote)
This 2000 year old tea is made using a extraordinary mushroom* that is
placed into a batch of regular sugary tea. The tea then begins to
ferment and in about 7 days it is ready to drink. During that same 7
day period a second mushroom grows within the tea, this new mushroom
is used to make your next batch of tea. Each time you make a batch of
tea a new mushroom is produced. Because of this quick reproductive
cycle of the Kombucha you can make an endless supply of this
incredible tea for FREE !
(unquote)

If anyone has a comment about making kombucha tea or use of tea to
dissolve kidney stones, I would be interested to read it. bookburn

I've had it, it's good, don't know why they call it a "mushroom." Don't
know if it "dissolves kidney stones" but it perked me up.

On Jul 13, 2:07 am, wrote:
> I followed up a reference on drinking tea to dissolve kidney stones
> and came to the following about kombucha.
>
> (quote)
> This 2000 year old tea is made using a extraordinary mushroom* that is
> placed into a batch of regular sugary tea. The tea then begins to
> ferment and in about 7 days it is ready to drink. During that same 7
> day period a second mushroom grows within the tea, this new mushroom
> is used to make your next batch of tea. Each time you make a batch of
> tea a new mushroom is produced. Because of this quick reproductive
> cycle of the Kombucha you can make an endless supply of this
> incredible tea for FREE !
> (unquote)
>
> If anyone has a comment about making kombucha tea or use of tea to
> dissolve kidney stones, I would be interested to read it. bookburn

I really enjoy kombucha, but I neither make it nor really believe in
any miracles teas. I mostly buy it already made in a bottle (Kombucha
Wonder Drink) from health food stores/whole foods. It is slightly
"prickly" on the tongue like carbonation and also slightly vinegary. A
great invaluable resource to me on natural cures/herbs/etc. is a book
called "Back to Eden" by Kloss it has info for any type of malady such
as kidney stones. I like it because most of what it offers are very
primitive and proven time-tested "cures."

You can buy a starter culture for Kombucha online though, and it can
be tasty so it might be worth tackling. I will say though that many
claims of healing are made about it beyond kidney stones. I'm sure it
is healthful and good for you overall no matter what. It is labor
intensive to make though to some extent. Good Luck!

- Dominic

On Jul 13, 2:07 am, wrote:
> If anyone has a comment about making kombucha tea or use of tea to
> dissolve kidney stones, I would be interested to read it. bookburn

Welp, I broke out my copy of Back to Eden to see what it said about
kidney stones just for you so here goes (and it was actually cool that
by total chance it offers a tea) I'm going to paraphrase to shorten it
a bit:

Prevention: high intake of fluids. 2-4 quarts a day. Kidney stones are
made up of calcium oxalate eat a diet low in them, avoid items high in
oxelates such as: spinach, parsley, beets, beet greens, swiss chard,
asparagus, okra, collards, celery, leeks, and sweet potatoes. berries,
highest of all fruits is rhubarb. almonds, cashews, peanuts and peanut
butter. Ovaltine and cocoa as should dark tea, coffee, and dark colas.

Once formed: A tea made of wild carrot seeds, valerian, and pepermint.
mix together and use a teaspoon to a cup of boiling water, steep for
30 mins. Take one half cupful every hour until pain is relieved. Queen
of the meadow, peach leaves, or cleavers may also be used.

Also for pain a hot bath (100f and increased up to 112) while keeping
head and neck cool with a sponge. Standing up and sponging down if
getting weak then back in to tub. He also mentions hot compresses on
the back in the kidney region for pain.

Now my usual disclaimer. I am not a true adherent to this type of
thing. I find a lot of old remedies have a lot of merit and natural
cures are sometimes better than medicines or good in conjunction with.
I find it more academically interesting than a life choice personally.

- Dominic

wrote:
> If anyone has a comment about making kombucha tea or use of tea to
> dissolve kidney stones, I would be interested to read it.

Purely anecdotal, of course, but... an otherwise absurdly healthy aged
aunt of mine was hospitalized with thrombocytopenia (easy bruising) and
other, more serious ailments that escape me just now. The diagnostician,
who knew her well, was nonplussed until she mentioned that she'd started
drinking kombucha daily a few months prior. He ordered her off it
instanter, and she soon recovered completely.

YMMV-

DM

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:36:09 -0700 (PDT), "Dominic T."
> wrote:

>On Jul 13, 2:07 am, wrote:
>> If anyone has a comment about making kombucha tea or use of tea to
>> dissolve kidney stones, I would be interested to read it. bookburn
>
>Welp, I broke out my copy of Back to Eden to see what it said about
>kidney stones just for you so here goes (and it was actually cool that
>by total chance it offers a tea) I'm going to paraphrase to shorten it
>a bit:
>
>Prevention: high intake of fluids. 2-4 quarts a day. Kidney stones are
>made up of calcium oxalate eat a diet low in them, avoid items high in
>oxelates such as: spinach, parsley, beets, beet greens, swiss chard,
>asparagus, okra, collards, celery, leeks, and sweet potatoes. berries,
>highest of all fruits is rhubarb. almonds, cashews, peanuts and peanut
>butter. Ovaltine and cocoa as should dark tea, coffee, and dark colas.
>
>Once formed: A tea made of wild carrot seeds, valerian, and pepermint.
>mix together and use a teaspoon to a cup of boiling water, steep for
>30 mins. Take one half cupful every hour until pain is relieved. Queen
>of the meadow, peach leaves, or cleavers may also be used.
>
>Also for pain a hot bath (100f and increased up to 112) while keeping
>head and neck cool with a sponge. Standing up and sponging down if
>getting weak then back in to tub. He also mentions hot compresses on
>the back in the kidney region for pain.
>
>Now my usual disclaimer. I am not a true adherent to this type of
>thing. I find a lot of old remedies have a lot of merit and natural
>cures are sometimes better than medicines or good in conjunction with.
>I find it more academically interesting than a life choice personally.
>
>- Dominic

Thanks for your commentary. I've been drinking lemon juice daily,
after having my kidney stone identified as the typical calcium type.
Lemon could be added to tea, I suppose. The pages I've read suggest
drinking lots of water, avoiding some foods, as you say, and adding a
few others. Tea is often mentioned as a substitute for other drinks,
especially sodas.

Kombucha does get some positive health benefits, a few warnings, but
no special links to dissolving kidney stones, as far as I can tell.
bookburn

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008 01:46:08 GMT, DogMa >
wrote:

wrote:
>> If anyone has a comment about making kombucha tea or use of tea to
>> dissolve kidney stones, I would be interested to read it.
>
>Purely anecdotal, of course, but... an otherwise absurdly healthy aged
>aunt of mine was hospitalized with thrombocytopenia (easy bruising) and
>other, more serious ailments that escape me just now. The diagnostician,
>who knew her well, was nonplussed until she mentioned that she'd started
>drinking kombucha daily a few months prior. He ordered her off it
>instanter, and she soon recovered completely.
>
>YMMV-
>
>DM

Yipes! I read that the "mushroom" formed during kombucha preparation
is susceptible of being invaded by unfriendly fungae and bacteria
unless care is taken; plus the brewing is capable of causing chemicals
to leach out of non-glass containers. bookburn

wrote:
> Yipes! I read that the "mushroom" formed during kombucha preparation
> is susceptible of being invaded by unfriendly fungae and bacteria
> unless care is taken; plus the brewing is capable of causing chemicals
> to leach out of non-glass containers.

Still seems to imply that kombucha itself is harmless, as few things are
when employed immoderately or by susceptible persons.

-DM

On Jul 13, 11:19*pm, wrote:
> Yipes! *I read that the "mushroom" formed during kombucha preparation
> is susceptible of being invaded by unfriendly fungae and bacteria
> unless care is taken; plus the brewing is capable of causing chemicals
> to leach out of non-glass containers. *bookburn

That's why it is the one bottled "tea" I enjoy. I figure the folks who
brew it have to be pretty careful or else they would have some scary
litigation coming their way. But, who knows what effect the
pasteurization has on any of the good bits. Anything that requires me
to grow a potentially harmful fungus/bacteria in a non-lab setting
involving a large pickle jar and a tea towel is not for me. Waaaaay
too many variables and downsides for a potentially small upside. But
that's just me.

- Dominic

On Jul 14, 3:15*pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> On Jul 13, 11:19*pm, wrote:
>
> > Yipes! *I read that the "mushroom" formed during kombucha preparation
> > is susceptible of being invaded by unfriendly fungae and bacteria
> > unless care is taken; plus the brewing is capable of causing chemicals
> > to leach out of non-glass containers. *bookburn
>
> Anything that requires me
> to grow a potentially harmful fungus/bacteria in a non-lab setting
> involving a large pickle jar and a tea towel is not for me. Waaaaay
> too many variables and downsides for a potentially small upside. But
> that's just me.

Does that inate wariness also exclude enjoying pu erh tea, Roquefort
cheese, salami, gravad lax, sour dough bread, and home brewed beer?

Nigel at Teacraft

On Jul 15, 3:39*am, Nigel > wrote:
> > *Anything that requires me
> > to grow a potentially harmful fungus/bacteria in a non-lab setting
> > involving a large pickle jar and a tea towel is not for me. Waaaaay
> > too many variables and downsides for a potentially small upside. But
> > that's just me.
>
> Does that inate wariness also exclude enjoying pu erh tea, Roquefort
> cheese, salami, gravad lax, sour dough bread, and home brewed beer?
>
> Nigel at Teacraft

Touche! But I don't really try to home-produce salamis, Roqueforts,
Puerhs, sour dough, gravad lax, or beer. (That list just made me
really hungry and the whole list fit well together so now I'm craving
quite the lunch) I would try beer though as that one seems the least
likely for death or illness and fairly high tolerances since alcohol
kills a lot of bad things. Sour Dough from scratch scares me almost as
much as Kombucha from scratch. My Grandfather used to make yogurt, but
that is also one I'd rather safely buy.

- Dominic

Dominic T. wrote:
> On Jul 13, 11:19 pm, wrote:
>> Yipes! I read that the "mushroom" formed during kombucha preparation
>> is susceptible of being invaded by unfriendly fungae and bacteria
>> unless care is taken; plus the brewing is capable of causing chemicals
>> to leach out of non-glass containers. bookburn
>
> That's why it is the one bottled "tea" I enjoy. I figure the folks who
> brew it have to be pretty careful or else they would have some scary
> litigation coming their way. But, who knows what effect the
> pasteurization has on any of the good bits. Anything that requires me
> to grow a potentially harmful fungus/bacteria in a non-lab setting
> involving a large pickle jar and a tea towel is not for me. Waaaaay
> too many variables and downsides for a potentially small upside. But
> that's just me.
>
> - Dominic
I've been doing that for many years with no ill effects... Kefir, Mead,
Beer, Yoghurt, and now I've been researching Kombucha to start kitchen
production as well. While I know there was a little tongue in cheek in
your response, you have to be pretty, um.... unsophisticated, to not
follow common sense sanitary protocols to end with a harmful result.
Even bad batches of beer won't kill you, just taste nasty.

Frankly I've seen people eat things that I wouldn't go near with a ten
foot pole, but I've never had a problem with any of the fermented
foodstuffs I've made. Just my $0.03 (due to the weak US dollar).

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Warren > writes:

> Dominic T. wrote:
> >
> > [...I'm leery of lots of fermentation processes...]
>
> I've been doing that for many years with no ill effects... Kefir,
> Mead, Beer, Yoghurt, and now I've been researching Kombucha to start
> kitchen production as well. While I know there was a little tongue in
> cheek in your response, you have to be pretty, um.... unsophisticated,
> to not follow common sense sanitary protocols to end with a harmful
> result. Even bad batches of beer won't kill you, just taste nasty.
>
> Frankly I've seen people eat things that I wouldn't go near with a ten
> foot pole, but I've never had a problem with any of the fermented
> foodstuffs I've made. Just my $0.03 (due to the weak US dollar).

Look, I'm a fermentation fan myself, and I don't want to cause undue
anxiety, but the fact that you don't get immediately sick from these
things is only part of the story. There are fermentation byproducts
that raise your chance of eventually getting cancer. Certainly not in
all fermentation, but the potential danger is not to be dismissed
airily. I'd love to call this off-topic, but it does happen in tea
manufacture sometimes.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lewis Perin wrote:
> Warren > writes:
>
>> Dominic T. wrote:
>>> [...I'm leery of lots of fermentation processes...]
>> I've been doing that for many years with no ill effects... Kefir,
>> Mead, Beer, Yoghurt, and now I've been researching Kombucha to start
>> kitchen production as well. While I know there was a little tongue in
>> cheek in your response, you have to be pretty, um.... unsophisticated,
>> to not follow common sense sanitary protocols to end with a harmful
>> result. Even bad batches of beer won't kill you, just taste nasty.
>>
>> Frankly I've seen people eat things that I wouldn't go near with a ten
>> foot pole, but I've never had a problem with any of the fermented
>> foodstuffs I've made. Just my $0.03 (due to the weak US dollar).
>
> Look, I'm a fermentation fan myself, and I don't want to cause undue
> anxiety, but the fact that you don't get immediately sick from these
> things is only part of the story. There are fermentation byproducts
> that raise your chance of eventually getting cancer. Certainly not in
> all fermentation, but the potential danger is not to be dismissed
> airily. I'd love to call this off-topic, but it does happen in tea
> manufacture sometimes.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /
> http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

I think a Kombucha discussion is on topic. But while I am familiar with
the esters, etc, that are produced in fermentation, when we're talking
Kombucha and other home fermented products, the levels are so low that
it's practically immaterial. And it's not like I distill my kombucha to
concentrate them, or drink gallons per day. While I understand your
concern, it doesn't seem like it's a big deal (to me at least).
Especially when there are populations of people who live to insane ages
while drinking kombucha daily, and haven't shown any increase in cancer.
They even credit their longevity to the consumption of kombucha and
kefir (though I can't say there is any definitive proof of that
relationship).

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Warren > writes:

> Lewis Perin wrote:
> > Warren > writes:
> >
> >> Dominic T. wrote:
> >>> [...I'm leery of lots of fermentation processes...]
> >> I've been doing that for many years with no ill effects... Kefir,
> >> Mead, Beer, Yoghurt, and now I've been researching Kombucha to start
> >> kitchen production as well. While I know there was a little tongue in
> >> cheek in your response, you have to be pretty, um.... unsophisticated,
> >> to not follow common sense sanitary protocols to end with a harmful
> >> result. Even bad batches of beer won't kill you, just taste nasty.
> >>
> >> Frankly I've seen people eat things that I wouldn't go near with a ten
> >> foot pole, but I've never had a problem with any of the fermented
> >> foodstuffs I've made. Just my $0.03 (due to the weak US dollar).
> > Look, I'm a fermentation fan myself, and I don't want to cause undue
> > anxiety, but the fact that you don't get immediately sick from these
> > things is only part of the story. There are fermentation byproducts
> > that raise your chance of eventually getting cancer. Certainly not in
> > all fermentation, but the potential danger is not to be dismissed
> > airily. I'd love to call this off-topic, but it does happen in tea
> > manufacture sometimes.
>
> I think a Kombucha discussion is on topic. But while I am familiar
> with the esters, etc, that are produced in fermentation, when we're
> talking Kombucha and other home fermented products, the levels are so
> low that it's practically immaterial. And it's not like I distill my
> kombucha to concentrate them, or drink gallons per day. While I
> understand your concern, it doesn't seem like it's a big deal (to me
> at least). Especially when there are populations of people who live to
> insane ages while drinking kombucha daily, and haven't shown any
> increase in cancer. They even credit their longevity to the
> consumption of kombucha and kefir (though I can't say there is any
> definitive proof of that relationship).

I wasn't thinking of Kombucha when I wrote that. Probably I should
have been more specific, but my impulse was to write "real tea", which
sounded kind of haughty, so I just wrote "tea". What I was really
thinking of was post-fermented teas: Pu'ers, Lu'Ans, and all the other
less famous ones.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Lew wrote:
>> ... the fact that you don't get immediately sick from these
>> things is only part of the story. There are fermentation byproducts
>> that raise your chance of eventually getting cancer. Certainly not in
>> all fermentation, but the potential danger is not to be dismissed
>> airily.

Warren wrote:
> ... the esters, etc, that are produced in fermentation, when we're talking
> Kombucha and other home fermented products, the levels are so low that
> it's practically immaterial.

I'd be fascinated to know what data support that unconcern. Fungal
metabolites are, AFAIK, among the most dangerous (i.e., toxic and
common) biochemicals known. Esters, most terpenes, etc. are largely OK.
But delayed lethality from mere specks of things like amanita cyclic
peptides is well known. The aflatoxins and kin are both severe acute
toxins and proven carcinogens in microgram daily doses. I'm with Lew -
not to be fearful, but neither to minimize both known and unknown risks.

-DM

On Jul 15, 2:18*pm, DogMa > wrote:
> Lew wrote:
> >> ... *the fact that you don't get immediately sick from these
> >> things is only part of the story. *There are fermentation byproducts
> >> that raise your chance of eventually getting cancer. *Certainly not in
> >> all fermentation, but the potential danger is not to be dismissed
> >> airily.
> Warren wrote:
> > ... the esters, etc, that are produced in fermentation, when we're talking
> > Kombucha and other home fermented products, the levels are so low that
> > it's practically immaterial.
>
> I'd be fascinated to know what data support that unconcern. Fungal
> metabolites are, AFAIK, among the most dangerous (i.e., toxic and
> common) biochemicals known. Esters, most terpenes, etc. are largely OK.
> But delayed lethality from mere specks of things like amanita cyclic
> peptides is well known. The aflatoxins and kin are both severe acute
> toxins and proven carcinogens in microgram daily doses. I'm with Lew -
> not to be fearful, but neither to minimize both known and unknown risks.
>
> -DM

Wow, see I'm happy to buy my salami and cheese and kombucha. I'm sure
I could do it, but I have trouble remembering to water my plants or
cut the grass when I'm busy, I just wouldn't want to trust my health
to a "forgotten" culture of something or other. It does seem cool
though, and I guess if I were more daring/had the time I'd try it out.
I did grow a pretty sweet purple long hairy fungus one time from a
half drunk can of grape soda that fell behind my dresser when I was a
kid. It glowed under black light and I kept it, it probably was
releasing spores and causing massive health issues, but hey it was
cool.

- Dominic

DogMa wrote:
> Lew wrote:
>>> ... the fact that you don't get immediately sick from these
>>> things is only part of the story. There are fermentation byproducts
>>> that raise your chance of eventually getting cancer. Certainly not in
>>> all fermentation, but the potential danger is not to be dismissed
>>> airily.
>
> Warren wrote:
>> ... the esters, etc, that are produced in fermentation, when we're
>> talking Kombucha and other home fermented products, the levels are so
>> low that it's practically immaterial.
>
> I'd be fascinated to know what data support that unconcern. Fungal
> metabolites are, AFAIK, among the most dangerous (i.e., toxic and
> common) biochemicals known. Esters, most terpenes, etc. are largely OK.
> But delayed lethality from mere specks of things like amanita cyclic
> peptides is well known. The aflatoxins and kin are both severe acute
> toxins and proven carcinogens in microgram daily doses. I'm with Lew -
> not to be fearful, but neither to minimize both known and unknown risks.
>
> -DM
Well, honestly it's anecdotal. People have been drinking and eating
kefir, yoghurt, kombucha, tea, cheese, etc for millennia with no adverse
affects...

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millennia ago people had a shorter lifespan

yogurt/milk fermentation is bacterial afaik, not sure what toxic
byproducts there are...

aflatoxins are cancerigens and cause liver cancer
tea sitting around for years and years in some corner has the
potential of acquiring a nasty fungus

Warren > writes:

> DogMa wrote:
> > Lew wrote:
> >>> ... the fact that you don't get immediately sick from these
> >>> things is only part of the story. There are fermentation byproducts
> >>> that raise your chance of eventually getting cancer. Certainly not in
> >>> all fermentation, but the potential danger is not to be dismissed
> >>> airily.
> > Warren wrote:
> >> ... the esters, etc, that are produced in fermentation, when we're
> >> talking Kombucha and other home fermented products, the levels are
> >> so low that it's practically immaterial.
> > I'd be fascinated to know what data support that unconcern. Fungal
> > metabolites are, AFAIK, among the most dangerous (i.e., toxic and
> > common) biochemicals known. Esters, most terpenes, etc. are largely
> > OK. But delayed lethality from mere specks of things like amanita
> > cyclic peptides is well known. The aflatoxins and kin are both
> > severe acute toxins and proven carcinogens in microgram daily
> > doses. I'm with Lew -
> > not to be fearful, but neither to minimize both known and unknown risks.
> > -DM
> Well, honestly it's anecdotal. People have been drinking and eating
> kefir, yoghurt, kombucha, tea, cheese, etc for millennia with no
> adverse affects...

I think it's more than anecdotal. Activities people have been engaged
in for millennia have lots of negative (and positive) effects on their
longevity. But Rick Chappell actually knows something about this.
You there, Rick?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Warren wrote:
> Well, honestly it's anecdotal. People have been drinking and eating
> kefir, yoghurt, kombucha, tea, cheese, etc for millennia with no adverse
> affects...

Except that they're all dead, except for a very small minority with a
few decades left.

Hey - I'm a big fan of fermented foods - and why hasn't surstromming
been mentioned? I just object to blanket assumption of safety because
things have a cultural legacy or are "natural" - whatever that means. A
significant fraction of the world's population will have their lives
shortened by eating meat, peanuts, eggs, etc. - some from intrinsic
issues like cholesterol, and others from molds and bacteria. We're all
gonna go sometime; might as well enjoy the ride w/o needless superstition.

-DM (throwing unrefined sea salt over left shoulder)

On Jul 16, 11:37 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Warren > writes:
> > DogMa wrote:
> > > Lew wrote:
> > >>> ... the fact that you don't get immediately sick from these
> > >>> things is only part of the story. There are fermentation byproducts
> > >>> that raise your chance of eventually getting cancer. Certainly not in
> > >>> all fermentation, but the potential danger is not to be dismissed
> > >>> airily.
> > > Warren wrote:
> > >> ... the esters, etc, that are produced in fermentation, when we're
> > >> talking Kombucha and other home fermented products, the levels are
> > >> so low that it's practically immaterial.
> > > I'd be fascinated to know what data support that unconcern. Fungal
> > > metabolites are, AFAIK, among the most dangerous (i.e., toxic and
> > > common) biochemicals known. Esters, most terpenes, etc. are largely
> > > OK. But delayed lethality from mere specks of things like amanita
> > > cyclic peptides is well known. The aflatoxins and kin are both
> > > severe acute toxins and proven carcinogens in microgram daily
> > > doses. I'm with Lew -
> > > not to be fearful, but neither to minimize both known and unknown risks.
> > > -DM
> > Well, honestly it's anecdotal. People have been drinking and eating
> > kefir, yoghurt, kombucha, tea, cheese, etc for millennia with no
> > adverse affects...
>
> I think it's more than anecdotal. Activities people have been engaged
> in for millennia have lots of negative (and positive) effects on their
> longevity. But Rick Chappell actually knows something about this.
> You there, Rick?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

I'm here, Lew. I'm supposed to be finishing up a bunch of slides, so
I'll just give a short version without many references.
First, the only good epidemiologic study on non-alcoholic liquids and
kidney stones showed that all such liquids except
grapefruit juice were roughly equally negatively associated with
kidney stones. (Note that I say "negatively associated with"
rather than "protective of" because this isn't a randomized study; it
could be that drinking these liquids is not causal and
is associated with something else truly protective - however, since
they have an obvious physiologic basis I find these results
believable). So drinking oxalate doesn't appear to cause oxalate
kidney stones (unless there is some kind of odd
sampling bias going on) anymore than eating cholesterol-rich eggs
causes cholesterol buildup in arteries. But oxalate in tea can still
cause harm, notably by chelating iron and preventing its absorption.

Now lots of fermentation products are bad for you. Evolutionary
biologists opine that this is why yeast, etc. developed
them - to keep us from eating the week-old carrion on which they were
growing. Aflatoxin and peanuts have already been
mentioned. But I think the issue is toxicity from _intentionally_
fermented substances. First, there is the famous link between
drinking calvados brandy and esophageal cancer in Normandy. Blaming
that on fermentation is tenuous because
calvados is distilled and fermented, while the fermented-only
substance (hard cider) doesn't seem to be dangerous. But
maybe distillation just concentrates another substance besides ethanol
which is already present in the cider. Temperature
could also have something to do with it (calvados is drunk hot, cider
cold). Temperature is also thought by some to be
the etiologic agent in the few studies in which tea was associated
with cancer (see http://www.nature.com/bjc/journal/v8.../6600054a.html
which, seems to refer to unfermented tea ["congou"] but,
because it also calls it black tea, could also mean fermented.).

But lots of foods which are made by letting them lie around can kill
or hurt you. Read the CDC's "Morbidity and Mortality
Weekly Report" (nice beach reading, if you can get wifi at one) at
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/ and you can see reports
of salmonella, listeriosis, strep, and TB from cheese .
Pasteurization sure doesn't prevent them, and Mexican cheeses seem to
be the biggest culprits. Real tea doesn't appear in it, contaminated
kombucha seems to have killed one woman
and given her friend heart problems, and a whole lot of teenagers brew
a whole lot of odd plants into tisanes and end up in emergency rooms.

Regarding cancer, except with extreme cases, it's very hard to say
(smoking is such an extreme case because it is
very common and multiplies the risk of lung cancer by roughly 14).
But there is indirect evidence, e.g. the article in
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18548153 , in which
Queens' University researchers note that vinyl carbamate, a metabolite
of ethyl carbamate (also called urethane), causes cancer in
susceptible mice. It appears to be found
(see wikipedia article on it) in soy sauce and many alcoholic
beverages.

On an only marginally related note, I just have to report that the
bacteria which cause odor in limburger cheese have just
been found to be from the same genus as those which cause foot odor
(see Bart Knols, "On human odour, malaria mosquitoes, and Limburger
cheese," The Lancet, vol. 348, issue 9037, p. 1322, for a report on
research which won him the Ignobel prize). God's feet indeed.

Back to powerpoint.

Best,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Chappell, Ph.D. <> Professor, Dept. of Statistics and of
Biostatistics & Medical Informatics, University of Wisconsin Medical
School
600 Highland Avenue, K6/430 <> Madison, WI 53792 USA