Its blurry. You get the picture ;-). Its handwritten from one of my
sheng boxes.

http://i39.tinypic.com/10ojqzr.jpg

TIA,
Jim

It almost looks like the character for "sheng", only upside down. I am
no native Chinese speaker, and no calligrapher, but this looks like a
four stroke character, and the last stroke seems kinda odd if this is
indeed right side up.

tried to draw it as in your picture using http://www.nciku.com/
but it didnt come up with any character that looks similar

On Jan 26, 8:18*am, cha bing > wrote:
> It almost looks like the character for "sheng", only upside down. I am
> no native Chinese speaker, and no calligrapher, but this looks like a
> four stroke character, and the last stroke seems kinda odd if this is
> indeed right side up.

If it isn't SHENG (life / raw, etc) upside down, also my guess, I
suppose it could be a highly grandiloquent WANG (king / top, etc) ...
but I'd go with the Sheng!

Mr Im Teas
In Yunnan with no money and no visa, and 196km away from my stash of
bing.

I should have said feel free to rotate the image 180'. I showed that
orientation because of the Traditional Radical zhi4. That could be
sheng upside down but the '6' doesnt look right for the top part of
the character. I used the Wubi wildcard input method to look at all
characters with the top part of the zhi4 character. I didnt see any
possible matches. There was a native Chinese speaker at the puer
tasting. I forgot to ask. If I could just figure what strokes the 9
or 6 represent.

Jim

On Jan 25, 5:18 pm, cha bing > wrote:
> It almost looks like the character for "sheng", only upside down. I am
> no native Chinese speaker, and no calligrapher, but this looks like a
> four stroke character, and the last stroke seems kinda odd if this is
> indeed right side up.

I think your suggesting a tablet application for characters drawn by
cursor or some type of build a character. Ill check it out.

Jim

Jan 25, 10:19 pm, SN > wrote:
> tried to draw it as in your picture usinghttp://www.nciku.com/
> but it didnt come up with any character that looks similar.

Ox. On Firefox Linux the pencil icon opens up outside the tablet,
Firefox isnt supplying the right coordinates. Guess Ill have to fire
up Vista where unfortunately everything seems to work. My throat is
still horse from pronouncing pu 'er'. Everybody was saying 'arh' but
is suppose to be the almost impossible 'ahr' for us Westerners. If I
get that sound down Ill go to Bejing and pretend Im a native.

Jim

On Jan 26, 7:00 am, wrote:
> I think your suggesting a tablet application for characters drawn by
> cursor or some type of build a character. Ill check it out.
>
> Jim
>
> Jan 25, 10:19 pm, SN > wrote:
>
> > tried to draw it as in your picture usinghttp://www.nciku.com/
> > but it didnt come up with any character that looks similar.

On Jan 27, 10:57*am, wrote:
> Ox. *On Firefox Linux the pencil icon opens up outside the tablet,
> Firefox isnt supplying the right coordinates. *Guess Ill have to fire
> up Vista where unfortunately everything seems to work. *My throat is
> still horse from pronouncing pu 'er'. *Everybody was saying 'arh' but
> is suppose to be the almost impossible 'ahr' for us Westerners. *If I
> get that sound down Ill go to Bejing and pretend Im a native.
>
> Jim

The frustrating thing is when native speakers act like because you are
slightly mangling the word they have no idea what you are saying. If
I'm in a tea shop or actively discussing tea and my pronunciation
isn't 100% I think it is safe to say they could easily figure it out.
When a non-native English speaker is mangling words left and right I
can still manage just fine. That's one of my pet peeves about talking
tea in person.

I had a lady repeat the word "Tuo" about a million times correcting me
(even though we were saying it the same) rather than just accept my
(apparently slightly off) pronunciation and move on. I never find it
necessary to correct the "L" and "R" thing (let alone repeatedly) when
they talk to me in English, I manage just fine.

- Dominic

PS I'm waiting to see what the character turns out to be, it's like a
bad soap opera

On 2009-01-27, Dominic T. > wrote:
>
> The frustrating thing is when native speakers act like because you are
> slightly mangling the word they have no idea what you are saying. If
> I'm in a tea shop or actively discussing tea and my pronunciation
> isn't 100% I think it is safe to say they could easily figure it out.
> When a non-native English speaker is mangling words left and right I
> can still manage just fine. That's one of my pet peeves about talking
> tea in person.

I can share the frustration of not being able to get what seems (to you)
to be a simple idea across. But I think in a lot of cases they
*honestly* have no idea what you're saying. This is for several reasons:

1) There are just plain a lot of sounds that are difficult to make for
English speakers or other non-native speakers of Chinese[1].
2) Even if the sounds are (phonetically) exactly right, if the tone is
wrong, most English speakers would understand what you mean, but to a
native speaker, it's a completely different word. And understanding a
single Chinese word is sometimes difficult even for native speakers when
the word is by itself and...
3) ...without context, which is the other thing that makes it hard to
understand. It's like if someone was speaking to you in a foreign (to
you) language and then used one English but completely mispronounced it,
and didn't give you that much context about what they mean, other than
that it had to do with food.
4) There are a lot of different dialects and regional differences of
pronunciation (as well as differences in tea terminology) in China and
the Chinese diaspora. The person you're talking to might not be a native
Mandarin speaker or a Mandarin speaker at all, or they might be used to
the word being pronounced differently from the "standard" way.
5) Just because a specialized word is common in the online tea community
doesn't mean that's the exact word that everyone uses to express the
same idea.

Now if it's a native speaker who deals with a lot of other western tea
lovers, they might be able to guess what you mean. But I think it's a
little ridiculous to assume that the person is just pretending that they
can't understand what you are saying. Other people whose native language
is English (or Chinese people who speak English at that level of
fluency) will probably be able to guess what you mean because either
they mangle the pronounciation of the word themself, or because they
know how the pinyin would sound if pronounced phonetically.

And by the way, I have certainly been on the opposite side of things,
where someone is mangling an English word to the point where I have no
idea what they're talking about. Plus, I assume that in your example (of
someone mangling English words left and right), it still involves
someone who is speaking entirely English, not speaking a language that's
not your first language with a single English word mixed in, out of
context. And someone who speaks English well enough to have a
conversation in it probably comparatively good English (mangled or not),
to the Chinese of your average tea loving Westerner who's not a native
speaker of Chinese.

I have had a lot of situations where Mandarin-speaking friends,
co-workers, members of my girlfriend's family, etc. simply do not
understand the word I'm saying, even though (in my head), I'm saying it
absolutely correctly, with the correct tone, etc. Even if I repeat it,
or try to explain. It's of course very frustrating for me, but I am 100%
certain that these people are not just pretending not to understand me
to teach me a lesson; it's just that I'm saying it wrong.

[1] And when I use "Chinese" to refer to a spoken language in this post,
I am talking about Putonghua / Mandarin, though I know that
"Chinese" isn't an actual spoken language.

w

On 2009-01-27, Dominic T. > wrote:

> I never find it necessary to correct the "L" and "R" thing (let alone
> repeatedly) when they talk to me in English, I manage just fine.

ps - This problem exists in reverse, too... for native English speakers
to say the Chinese "R" sound is very difficult.

w

On Jan 27, 8:03*pm, Will Yardley >
wrote:
> I have had a lot of situations where Mandarin-speaking friends,
> co-workers, members of my girlfriend's family, etc. simply do not
> understand the word I'm saying, even though (in my head), I'm saying it
> absolutely correctly, with the correct tone, etc. Even if I repeat it,
> or try to explain. It's of course very frustrating for me, but I am 100%
> certain that these people are not just pretending not to understand me
> to teach me a lesson; it's just that I'm saying it wrong. *
>
> [1] And when I use "Chinese" to refer to a spoken language in this post,
> I am talking about Putonghua / Mandarin, though I know that
> "Chinese" isn't an actual spoken language.
>
> w

I totally understand, and yes I have very close friends and family who
speak a number of languages so I wasn't trying to come off so harsh as
I now see it may have seemed. What I was trying to say
(unsuccessfully is this: I was recently in an Asian import shop in
a local mall, I was speaking with the owner about tea and Yixing (so
we were on the same page) and she brought up Puerh, I then stated I am
not a huge fan but can enjoy it every now and then so I generally do
not buy large amounts and instead stick to small tuos or loose tea.
Instead of just continuing the conversation she stopped and (I'm sure
she understood) corrected my pronunciation of "tuo." No big deal, I'm
happy to learn the right way... I'm totally fine with it. I repeated,
she then still did not like it and repeated. I repeated. She repeated.
We repeated... about 20 times with no discernible difference in tone
or pronunciation (although I'm sure I was off minutely). She never
gave up. Then when I thought we were finally done she broke out some
silver needle tea, she didn't recognize the words "silver needles" so
I then tried "Bai Hao Yinzhen" and "Bai Mu Dan" She caught them but
then lunched into another rousing bout of pete and repeat with me.

Both times I was close enough that she knew what I was saying to
correct me. If a foreign speaker was that close in or out of context,
I'm sure I would just let it pass. Now, in this case she could see I
knew more than the average customer so I'm sure she was trying to be
helpful... but I have also been a part of times when it was just to be
snooty about it. I do genuinely care and try my best to accurately
pronounce the words. I began learning to say the words from
Teaspring.com a couple years back, on their site you can click the
characters and hear a woman pronounce them. From there it has come
from a number of sources, so it could be a mish mash of particular
dialects. I do try to not just be a dumb American and brashly mangle
the words (even if I still do). I do care. But there has to be some
leeway for a non-native speaker, which was what I was trying to say
initially.

- Dominic

On Jan 26, 9:46*pm, wrote:
> I should have said feel free to rotate the image 180'. *I showed that
> orientation because of the Traditional Radical zhi4. *That could be
> sheng upside down but the '6' doesnt look right for the top part of
> the character. *I used the Wubi wildcard input method to look at all
> characters with the top part of the zhi4 character. *I didnt see any
> possible matches. *There was a native Chinese speaker at the puer
> tasting. *I forgot to ask. *If I could just figure what strokes the 9
> or 6 represent.
>
> Jim
>
> On Jan 25, 5:18 pm, cha bing > wrote:
>
> > It almost looks like the character for "sheng", only upside down. I am
> > no native Chinese speaker, and no calligrapher, but this looks like a
> > four stroke character, and the last stroke seems kinda odd if this is
> > indeed right side up.

The character is indeed 'sheng', written in Xing-shu:
http://hzart.5d6d.com/thread-34-1-1.html
5th row from the right, 7th character from the bottom. Extend the
left hook and round the corner, join up the right, and extend the
base.

On Jan 28, 9:45*am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> On Jan 27, 8:03*pm, Will Yardley >
> wrote:
>
> > I have had a lot of situations where Mandarin-speaking friends,
> > co-workers, members of my girlfriend's family, etc. simply do not
> > understand the word I'm saying, even though (in my head), I'm saying it
> > absolutely correctly, with the correct tone, etc. Even if I repeat it,
> > or try to explain. It's of course very frustrating for me, but I am 100%
> > certain that these people are not just pretending not to understand me
> > to teach me a lesson; it's just that I'm saying it wrong. *
>
> > [1] And when I use "Chinese" to refer to a spoken language in this post,
> > I am talking about Putonghua / Mandarin, though I know that
> > "Chinese" isn't an actual spoken language.
>
> > w
>
> I totally understand, and yes I have very close friends and family who
> speak a number of languages so I wasn't trying to come off so harsh as
> I now see it may have seemed. What I was trying to say
> (unsuccessfully is this: I was recently in an Asian import shop in
> a local mall, I was speaking with the owner about tea and Yixing (so
> we were on the same page) and she brought up Puerh, I then stated I am
> not a huge fan but can enjoy it every now and then so I generally do
> not buy large amounts and instead stick to small tuos or loose tea.
> Instead of just continuing the conversation she stopped and (I'm sure
> she understood) corrected my pronunciation of "tuo." No big deal, I'm
> happy to learn the right way... I'm totally fine with it. I repeated,
> she then still did not like it and repeated. I repeated. She repeated.
> We repeated... about 20 times with no discernible difference in tone
> or pronunciation (although I'm sure I was off minutely). She never
> gave up. Then when I thought we were finally done she broke out some
> silver needle tea, she didn't recognize the words "silver needles" so
> I then tried "Bai Hao Yinzhen" and "Bai Mu Dan" She caught them but
> then lunched into another rousing bout of pete and repeat with me.
>
> Both times I was close enough that she knew what I was saying to
> correct me. If a foreign speaker was that close in or out of context,
> I'm sure I would just let it pass. Now, in this case she could see I
> knew more than the average customer so I'm sure she was trying to be
> helpful... but I have also been a part of times when it was just to be
> snooty about it. I do genuinely care and try my best to accurately
> pronounce the words. I began learning to say the words from
> Teaspring.com a couple years back, on their site you can click the
> characters and hear a woman pronounce them. From there it has come
> from a number of sources, so it could be a mish mash of particular
> dialects. I do try to not just be a dumb American and brashly mangle
> the words (even if I still do). I do care. But there has to be some
> leeway for a non-native speaker, which was what I was trying to say
> initially.
>
> - Dominic

The pedantic lady must have been a teacher back in where she came
from. Most of us do not bother to correct non native speakers, since
between north and south, and within the Asia region, we all speak
Mandarin with big differences. Well, if she is so pedantic, play up to
her, you might get to drink lots of free tea by pretending to learn
how to pronounce the characters, and repeating the characters make
your throat dry and thirsty, and...you know the drill...

:"P

On Jan 24, 1:24*am, wrote:
> Its blurry. *You get the picture ;-). *Its handwritten from one of my
> sheng boxes.
>
> http://i39.tinypic.com/10ojqzr.jpg
>
> TIA,
> Jim

The character is written in a sort of Chinese calligraphy so it makes
it harder to read. It's "shou" which means long life.

On Jan 28, 8:16*pm, Mydnight > wrote:
> On Jan 24, 1:24*am, wrote:
>
> > Its blurry. *You get the picture ;-). *Its handwritten from one of my
> > sheng boxes.
>
> >http://i39.tinypic.com/10ojqzr.jpg
>
> > TIA,
> > Jim
>
> The character is written in a sort of Chinese calligraphy so it makes
> it harder to read. *It's "shou" which means long life.

If it is the 'shou' character then the writer was not aware of the
strokes. Be it Cao-shu or Xing-shu, the middle stroke has to push
through the top bar and the character is missing a dot on the right of
the swiping curve.

On Jan 28, 9:56*pm, Kevo > wrote:
> On Jan 28, 8:16*pm, Mydnight > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 24, 1:24*am, wrote:
>
> > > Its blurry. *You get the picture ;-). *Its handwritten from one of my
> > > sheng boxes.
>
> > >http://i39.tinypic.com/10ojqzr.jpg
>
> > > TIA,
> > > Jim
>
> > The character is written in a sort of Chinese calligraphy so it makes
> > it harder to read. *It's "shou" which means long life.
>
> If it is the 'shou' character then the writer was not aware of the
> strokes. Be it Cao-shu or Xing-shu, the middle stroke has to push
> through the top bar and the character is missing a dot on the right of
> the swiping curve.

As in the 1st character from the left:

http://pm.cangdian.com/Data/2005/PMH...1662-0392.html

> As in the 1st character from the left:
>
> http://pm.cangdian.com/Data/2005/PMH...01662-0392...- Hide quoted text -

When it comes to calligraphy, they don't really concentrate on the
exact strokes. It is more or less the shape of the character. To be
frank, it wasn't me that called what character it is, it was a Chinese
teacher that happened to be standing behind me that majored in Chinese
history that told me what character it was. Believe him, who had
studied Chinese History and Literature for 20 years, or not.

On Jan 28, 11:40*pm, Mydnight > wrote:
> > As in the 1st character from the left:
>
> >http://pm.cangdian.com/Data/2005/PMH...62-0392...Hide quoted text -
>
> When it comes to calligraphy, they don't really concentrate on the
> exact strokes. *It is more or less the shape of the character. *To be
> frank, it wasn't me that called what character it is, it was a Chinese
> teacher that happened to be standing behind me that majored in Chinese
> history that told me what character it was. *Believe him, who had
> studied Chinese History and Literature for 20 years, or not.

This has nothing to do with 20 years of study or steeping in Chinese
History and Literature...it is about perception: tilt the picture 180
and ask him again...

On Jan 28, 11:54 pm, Kevo > wrote:
> On Jan 28, 11:40 pm, Mydnight > wrote:
>
> > > As in the 1st character from the left:
>
> > >http://pm.cangdian.com/Data/2005/PMH...-0392...quoted text -
>
> > When it comes to calligraphy, they don't really concentrate on the
> > exact strokes. It is more or less the shape of the character. To be
> > frank, it wasn't me that called what character it is, it was a Chinese
> > teacher that happened to be standing behind me that majored in Chinese
> > history that told me what character it was. Believe him, who had
> > studied Chinese History and Literature for 20 years, or not.
>
> This has nothing to do with 20 years of study or steeping in Chinese
> History and Literature...it is about perception: tilt the picture 180
> and ask him again...

Looking at that character and seeing it as 'shou' sans the imperative
dot on the right, one might think it closer to 'gai' ($BP"(B) than
'shou' ($B<w(B) instead.

I want to make sure.

Is this the sheng character from your first table.
http://i43.tinypic.com/vxn4b9.jpg

xiexie,
Jim

On Jan 27, 8:49 pm, Kevo > wrote:
> The character is indeed 'sheng', written in Xing-shu:http://hzart.5d6d.com/thread-34-1-1.html
> 5th row from the right, 7th character from the bottom. Extend the
> left hook and round the corner, join up the right, and extend the
> base.

On Jan 29, 3:50*am, wrote:
> I want to make sure.
>
> Is this the sheng character from your first table.http://i43.tinypic.com/vxn4b9.jpg
>
> xiexie,
> Jim
>
> On Jan 27, 8:49 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > The character is indeed 'sheng', written in Xing-shu:http://hzart.5d6d.com/thread-34-1-1.html
> > 5th row from the right, 7th character from the bottom. *Extend the
> > left hook and round the corner, join up the right, and extend the
> > base.

Yes, curve the left arm, join the right corners, extend the base, and
turn the character 180...
bu ke qi...

Somebody suggested earlier my character was upsidedown. Why is your
character upsidedown. Everything else in the table looks rightside up
to me.

Jim

On Jan 28, 6:39 pm, Kevo > wrote:
> On Jan 29, 3:50 am, wrote:
>
> > I want to make sure.
>
> > Is this the sheng character from your first table.http://i43.tinypic.com/vxn4b9.jpg
>
> > xiexie,
> > Jim
>
> > On Jan 27, 8:49 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > > The character is indeed 'sheng', written in Xing-shu:http://hzart.5d6d.com/thread-34-1-1.html
> > > 5th row from the right, 7th character from the bottom. Extend the
> > > left hook and round the corner, join up the right, and extend the
> > > base.
>
> Yes, curve the left arm, join the right corners, extend the base, and
> turn the character 180...
> bu ke qi...

Kevo > writes:

> On Jan 29, 3:50*am, wrote:
> > I want to make sure.
> >
> > Is this the sheng character from your first table.http://i43.tinypic.com/vxn4b9.jpg
> >
> > xiexie,
> > Jim
> >
> > On Jan 27, 8:49 pm, Kevo > wrote:
> >
> > > The character is indeed 'sheng', written in Xing-shu:http://hzart.5d6d.com/thread-34-1-1.html
> > > 5th row from the right, 7th character from the bottom. *Extend the
> > > left hook and round the corner, join up the right, and extend the
> > > base.
>
> Yes, curve the left arm, join the right corners, extend the base, and
> turn the character 180...
> bu ke qi...

Thanks for the interesting pointers to Xingshu and Caoshu, Kevo. But
it's frustrating just seeing some examples of these scripts. I wonder
if there's anything on the Web or in print that gives something like
systematic rules for how these scripts differ from what we normally
see in print.

I would also love to be able to read what Chinese waiters write on
checks, but maybe what they do is more sloppy than systematic?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Jan 29, 9:53*pm, wrote:
> Somebody suggested earlier my character was upsidedown. *Why is your
> character upsidedown. *Everything else in the table looks rightside up
> to me.
>
> Jim
>
> On Jan 28, 6:39 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 29, 3:50 am, wrote:
>
> > > I want to make sure.
>
> > > Is this the sheng character from your first table.http://i43.tinypic.com/vxn4b9.jpg
>
> > > xiexie,
> > > Jim
>
> > > On Jan 27, 8:49 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > > > The character is indeed 'sheng', written in Xing-shu:http://hzart.5d6d.com/thread-34-1-1.html
> > > > 5th row from the right, 7th character from the bottom. *Extend the
> > > > left hook and round the corner, join up the right, and extend the
> > > > base.
>
> > Yes, curve the left arm, join the right corners, extend the base, and
> > turn the character 180...
> > bu ke qi...

Possible to show a pic of all the characters in the table? That way we
can deduce better if it is 'sheng' or 'shou', otherwise this
discussion leads to nowhere...

On Jan 29, 11:31Â*pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Kevo > writes:
> > On Jan 29, 3:50Â*am, wrote:
> > > I want to make sure.
>
> > > Is this the sheng character from your first table.http://i43.tinypic.com/vxn4b9.jpg
>
> > > xiexie,
> > > Jim
>
> > > On Jan 27, 8:49 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > > > The character is indeed 'sheng', written in Xing-shu:http://hzart.5d6d.com/thread-34-1-1.html
> > > > 5th row from the right, 7th character from the bottom. Â*Extend the
> > > > left hook and round the corner, join up the right, and extend the
> > > > base.
>
> > Yes, curve the left arm, join the right corners, extend the base, and
> > turn the character 180...
> > bu ke qi...
>
> Thanks for the interesting pointers to Xingshu and Caoshu, Kevo. Â*But
> it's frustrating just seeing some examples of these scripts. Â*I wonder
> if there's anything on the Web or in print that gives something like
> systematic rules for how these scripts differ from what we normally
> see in print.
>
> I would also love to be able to read what Chinese waiters write on
> checks, but maybe what they do is more sloppy than systematic?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

I'll see if I can find you something in print...as for the waiters, it
is both. They usually write in a form of Cao Shu (more like a
scribble actually) that they understand among themselves, it can be
sloppy, but it is systematically a simplified form of the actual
characters, as in the case below:

Fried Rice with Egg
Actual: 蛋炒é¥*
They write: 旦少�

Flat Noodles with Beef
Actual: 牛肉河粉
They write: 牛河分 (Cantonese simply call it 牛河)

Half the time, I have to pause and take a good look and decipher the
characters when the check is presented...

Here is the table orientation I am seeing. Now I truly dont know
where this is going.

http://i39.tinypic.com/2i8g8p5.jpg

Jim

On Jan 29, 8:52 am, Kevo > wrote:
> On Jan 29, 9:53 pm, wrote:
> > Somebody suggested earlier my character was upsidedown. Why is your
> > character upsidedown. Everything else in the table looks rightside up
> > to me.
>
> > Jim
>
> > On Jan 28, 6:39 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 29, 3:50 am, wrote:
>
> > > > I want to make sure.
>
> > > > Is this the sheng character from your first table.http://i43.tinypic.com/vxn4b9.jpg
>
> > > > xiexie,
> > > > Jim
>
> > > > On Jan 27, 8:49 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > > > > The character is indeed 'sheng', written in Xing-shu:http://hzart.5d6d.com/thread-34-1-1.html
> > > > > 5th row from the right, 7th character from the bottom. Extend the
> > > > > left hook and round the corner, join up the right, and extend the
> > > > > base.
>
> > > Yes, curve the left arm, join the right corners, extend the base, and
> > > turn the character 180...
> > > bu ke qi...
>
> Possible to show a pic of all the characters in the table? That way we
> can deduce better if it is 'sheng' or 'shou', otherwise this
> discussion leads to nowhere...

On Jan 30, 12:18*am, wrote:
> Here is the table orientation I am seeing. *Now I truly dont know
> where this is going.
>
> http://i39.tinypic.com/2i8g8p5.jpg
>
> Jim
>
> On Jan 29, 8:52 am, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 29, 9:53 pm, wrote:
> > > Somebody suggested earlier my character was upsidedown. *Why is your
> > > character upsidedown. *Everything else in the table looks rightside up
> > > to me.
>
> > > Jim
>
> > > On Jan 28, 6:39 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 29, 3:50 am, wrote:
>
> > > > > I want to make sure.
>
> > > > > Is this the sheng character from your first table.http://i43.tinypic.com/vxn4b9.jpg
>
> > > > > xiexie,
> > > > > Jim
>
> > > > > On Jan 27, 8:49 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > > > > > The character is indeed 'sheng', written in Xing-shu:http://hzart.5d6d.com/thread-34-1-1.html
> > > > > > 5th row from the right, 7th character from the bottom. *Extend the
> > > > > > left hook and round the corner, join up the right, and extend the
> > > > > > base.
>
> > > > Yes, curve the left arm, join the right corners, extend the base, and
> > > > turn the character 180...
> > > > bu ke qi...
>
> > Possible to show a pic of all the characters in the table? That way we
> > can deduce better if it is 'sheng' or 'shou', otherwise this
> > discussion leads to nowhere...

Oh I see. You meant the table as in the link I posted...and I thought
you meant the character or characters written on your cake together
with the character you posted.

See the next post...

On Jan 29, 9:53*pm, wrote:
> Somebody suggested earlier my character was upsidedown. *Why is your
> character upsidedown. *Everything else in the table looks rightside up
> to me.
>
> Jim
>
> On Jan 28, 6:39 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 29, 3:50 am, wrote:
>
> > > I want to make sure.
>
> > > Is this the sheng character from your first table.http://i43.tinypic.com/vxn4b9.jpg
>
> > > xiexie,
> > > Jim
>
> > > On Jan 27, 8:49 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > > > The character is indeed 'sheng', written in Xing-shu:http://hzart.5d6d.com/thread-34-1-1.html
> > > > 5th row from the right, 7th character from the bottom. *Extend the
> > > > left hook and round the corner, join up the right, and extend the
> > > > base.
>
> > Yes, curve the left arm, join the right corners, extend the base, and
> > turn the character 180...
> > bu ke qi...

The character is not upside down. What I meant is that if you turn the
'sheng' character as shown upside down, and round off the corners etc,
you'll see the similarity between what you posted and the upside down
'sheng' character...

Hmm.... This is quite an interesting post. But I do have to agree with
Kevo. It is the "sheng" character but upside down. However, when I
first glanced at it, my immediate impression was "shou" meaning long
life too. But when I flipped my screen upside down, it clealy
presented itself as the "sheng" character. There are many calligraphic
styles, such as the Grass style or Running style, not to mention older
styles. Some are almost undecipherable to modern readers of Chinese.
And yes, there are books or scrolls or whatever to demonstrate
variations of each character in calligraphic script. I have a Korean
dictionary like that, of only a limited number of characters.

For the sake of Google archiving and my piece of mind

my sheng character is upside down
http://i39.tinypic.com/10ojqzr.jpg

and your sheng character is rightside up
http://i43.tinypic.com/vxn4b9.jpg

Jim

On Jan 29, 10:11 am, Kevo > wrote:
> On Jan 29, 9:53 pm, wrote:
>
> > Somebody suggested earlier my character was upsidedown. Why is your
> > character upsidedown. Everything else in the table looks rightside up
> > to me.
>
> > Jim
>
> > On Jan 28, 6:39 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 29, 3:50 am, wrote:
>
> > > > I want to make sure.
>
> > > > Is this the sheng character from your first table.http://i43.tinypic.com/vxn4b9.jpg
>
> > > > xiexie,
> > > > Jim
>
> > > > On Jan 27, 8:49 pm, Kevo > wrote:
>
> > > > > The character is indeed 'sheng', written in Xing-shu:http://hzart.5d6d.com/thread-34-1-1.html
> > > > > 5th row from the right, 7th character from the bottom. Extend the
> > > > > left hook and round the corner, join up the right, and extend the
> > > > > base.
>
> > > Yes, curve the left arm, join the right corners, extend the base, and
> > > turn the character 180...
> > > bu ke qi...
>
> The character is not upside down. What I meant is that if you turn the
> 'sheng' character as shown upside down, and round off the corners etc,
> you'll see the similarity between what you posted and the upside down
> 'sheng' character...

Kevo > writes:

> On Jan 29, 11:31Â*pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > Kevo > writes:
> > > On Jan 29, 3:50Â*am, wrote:
> > > > I want to make sure.
> >
> > > > Is this the sheng character from your first table.http://i43.tinypic.com/vxn4b9.jpg
> >
> > > > xiexie,
> > > > Jim
> >
> > > > On Jan 27, 8:49 pm, Kevo > wrote:
> >
> > > > > The character is indeed 'sheng', written in Xing-shu:http://hzart.5d6d.com/thread-34-1-1.html
> > > > > 5th row from the right, 7th character from the bottom. Â*Extend the
> > > > > left hook and round the corner, join up the right, and extend the
> > > > > base.
> >
> > > Yes, curve the left arm, join the right corners, extend the base, and
> > > turn the character 180...
> > > bu ke qi...
> >
> > Thanks for the interesting pointers to Xingshu and Caoshu, Kevo. Â*But
> > it's frustrating just seeing some examples of these scripts. Â*I wonder
> > if there's anything on the Web or in print that gives something like
> > systematic rules for how these scripts differ from what we normally
> > see in print.
> >
> > I would also love to be able to read what Chinese waiters write on
> > checks, but maybe what they do is more sloppy than systematic?
> >
> > /Lew
> > ---
> > Lew Perin /
>
> I'll see if I can find you something in print...as for the waiters, it
> is both. They usually write in a form of Cao Shu (more like a
> scribble actually) that they understand among themselves, it can be
> sloppy, but it is systematically a simplified form of the actual
> characters, as in the case below:
>
> Fried Rice with Egg
> Actual: 蛋炒é¥*
> They write: 旦少�

I love the appropriateness of Egg -> Daybreak!

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

I will note that, if this were sheng upside down (which was my best
guess), the stroke order would seem off. Seems like you wouldn't
normally do that middle cross after the vertical stroke, which is what
would be the case if this were sheng. It does look like (if it were
right-side-up) they did the top stroke, then the middle stroke, then
the vertical stroke, with the curl and the swoop at the end (sorry for
lack of proper stroke names, but you get the picture). Then again, it
does seem weird that they wouldn't at least cross the top bar with
'shou' and maybe hook the bottom, but at least it looks like they did
things in the right order if it is shou, which I would imagine to be
more important than something like a dot in such a free writing
style...

[kevo]
> I'll see if I can find you something in print...as for the waiters, it
> is both. Â*They usually write in a form of Cao Shu (more like a
> scribble actually) that they understand among themselves, it can be
> sloppy, but it is systematically a simplified form of the actual
> characters, as in the case below:
>
> Fried Rice with Egg
> Actual: 蛋炒é¥*
> They write: 旦少�
>
> Flat Noodles with Beef
> Actual: 牛肉河粉
> They write: 牛河分 (Cantonese simply call it 牛河)

[corax] this sort of information is worth its weight in gold. most
people would not even think to describe this to us. thanks kevo for
another fascinating glimpse into the intricate workings of asian
culture.

question: is this type of cao shu at all likely to be the next step in
'simplified' characters in the chinese-speaking world? or do you think
the 'next step' is more likely to be a massive move, on the mainland
at least, toward using pinyin or some other phonetic-representation
system, replacing hanzi altogether?

> This has nothing to do with 20 years of study or steeping in Chinese
> History and Literature...it is about perception: tilt the picture 180
> and ask him again...

He said it's shou. When we turned it upside down, he said it's shou
upside down. They use this character on things sort of as
advertisement. It's used for good luck. It would be pointless to put
"gai" on a box of tea and try to sell it. It's similar to the $BJ!(B
character you usually see around southern China; although they DO turn
that character upside down usually because of a superstition in
believing that when you turn it that way, it brings the luck back to
you.

> Fried Rice with Egg
> Actual: 蛋炒é¥*
> They write: 旦少�
>
> Flat Noodles with Beef
> Actual: 牛肉河粉
> They write: 牛河分 (Cantonese simply call it 牛河)

Don't really see how this fits in as an example. Your first example,
the first one is the "fan ti" script that is still used in Hong Kong
and Taiwan. The "chao" character wouldn't be written as "shao" no
matter in what restaurant you go unless your server is really
uneducated; which isn't too uncommon in China. You gave an example of
how they sometimes abbreviate the language in the second example.

On Jan 30, 8:41 pm, Mydnight > wrote:
> > This has nothing to do with 20 years of study or steeping in Chinese
> > History and Literature...it is about perception: tilt the picture 180
> > and ask him again...
>
> He said it's shou. When we turned it upside down, he said it's shou
> upside down. They use this character on things sort of as
> advertisement. It's used for good luck. It would be pointless to put
> "gai" on a box of tea and try to sell it. It's similar to the $BJ!(B
> character you usually see around southern China; although they DO turn
> that character upside down usually because of a superstition in
> believing that when you turn it that way, it brings the luck back to
> you.

I hope the above is what you witness, and not what you are
taught...the inversion of the fu character is something many people
are doing in the past 10-20 years, which probably started out as a
game adults pkay on kids: during Lunar New Year the adults will show
the kids a piece of paper with the fu character written upside down,
and then ask the kids what character is that. Kids would then shout Fu
Dao (upside down) Fu Dao! in which Dao shares the same pronounciation
with Dao (arrive) - the kids are then given sweets or goodies. The
whole game is to bring in the joy during festive seasons. Businessmen
and media advertising later adopted this Fu Dao for the same
significance, but this is completely incorrect. Upside down Fu, as
written and placed on doors, actually meant tht the family is jinxed
with bad luck and wishes to reverse the fortune. The other place to
stick an upside down Fu is on the toilet door, to signify that as
waste is flushed out, good luck is flushed in.

But back to the character.

When I first looked at the character, I thought of Shou too, but
several points tell me it is not: the character is missing the tell-
tale dot on the right, and the top should be a cross bar, not a T bar;
when I follow the calligraphic strokes, there is no continuity in the
flow of the pen. To write this character, if it Shou, the writer has
to draw a bar, then a J with a curl that cuts across to the right and
abruptly swips down. Then to finish it, draw a flatten O on the
central stroke. This is not how Shou is written, in any script, even
by a westerner.

For the character to be Sheng, one draws a 4, with the stroke starting
from the upper left, curving down over to the right, up and curve it
backwards, then down cutting through the stroke, then upward again on
the left to draw a swipping small O, leaving a small tail,, then
finish the character with a bar at the bottom. This is how most
people writing Sheng in Xing Shu might do.

Ultimately though, Jim has to decide the character for himself.

On Jan 30, 8:54Â*pm, Mydnight > wrote:
> > Fried Rice with Egg
> > Actual: 蛋炒é¥*
> > They write: 旦少�
>
> > Flat Noodles with Beef
> > Actual: 牛肉河粉
> > They write: 牛河分 (Cantonese simply call it 牛河)
>
> Don't really see how this fits in as an example. Â*Your first example,
> the first one is the "fan ti" script that is still used in Hong Kong
> and Taiwan. Â*The "chao" character wouldn't be written as "shao" no
> matter in what restaurant you go unless your server is really
> uneducated; which isn't too uncommon in China. Â*You gave an example of
> how they sometimes abbreviate the language in the second example.

Please read what Lew wrote.
My first example is not in fan ti script. Please look at the
characters. If 蛋 is a fan ti for 旦, you need a new teacher. 炒 is the
same fan or jian ti, é¥* is written in jian ti, not fan ti. So which is
in fan ti?
'no matter in what restaurant' - unless you have been to all the
Chinese eateries in the world, you can only say 'in the restaurants
I've been to', which is not exhaustive. I just ate last week at Xiao
Nan Tian in Hongkong and watched the waiter wrote Nian Gao 年糕 as 年高。
The second example is the same, 分 written for 粉
Most times it is not that the waiters are uneducated. They substitute
one character for the other with the similar writing or sound in order
to expediate things: they write it fast and pass it on to the kitchen.
They do this for efficiency.
What is more horrifying is when the literate do it in their published
works, and one I can name on the fly is Teaparker. In several books by
him the pages are peppered by characters which share the same sound,
or similar strokes, but mean differently. Waiters do it to make their
job quicker, but a writer?

Everyone agrees my character is upside down :-). This is how I
satisfied myself it is. Three characters meaning Big Leaf Tea were
written on the flat side of the rectangular sheng box. I imagine the
box was flipped on one edge for the rightside up 'sheng' character on
the other edge which I mistakenly showed upsidedown. I dont know I
think the sheng itself got more expensive or taste better because of
this discussion. I learned some stuff about Chinese handwriting. I
want to thank everyone for their efforts. This is the best group
about tea on the net.

Jim

PS At the PPP everybody was talking about this and that blog. I said
I belonged to RFDT on USENET. Only one person had even heard of
USENET.


On Jan 30, 6:29 am, Kevo > wrote:
> But back to the character.
> Ultimately though, Jim has to decide the character for himself.

corax > writes:

> [kevo]
> > I'll see if I can find you something in print...as for the waiters, it
> > is both. Â*They usually write in a form of Cao Shu (more like a
> > scribble actually) that they understand among themselves, it can be
> > sloppy, but it is systematically a simplified form of the actual
> > characters, as in the case below:
> >
> > Fried Rice with Egg
> > Actual: 蛋炒é¥*
> > They write: 旦少�
> >
> > Flat Noodles with Beef
> > Actual: 牛肉河粉
> > They write: 牛河分 (Cantonese simply call it 牛河)
>
> [corax] this sort of information is worth its weight in gold. most
> people would not even think to describe this to us. thanks kevo for
> another fascinating glimpse into the intricate workings of asian
> culture.
>
> question: is this type of cao shu at all likely to be the next step in
> 'simplified' characters in the chinese-speaking world? or do you think
> the 'next step' is more likely to be a massive move, on the mainland
> at least, toward using pinyin or some other phonetic-representation
> system, replacing hanzi altogether?

"this type of cao shu"? Let's first agree on what is meant here. I
think what we're talking about is one character per syllable, the
character being selected from the universe of (as many as 100 in some
cases) on the criterion of simplicity: probably the fewest strokes.

So it would be a syllabary. The Japanese use a couple of syllabaries,
as far as I know, so there's a precedent.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

corax > wrote:
>
>question: is this type of cao shu at all likely to be the next step in
>'simplified' characters in the chinese-speaking world? or do you think
>the 'next step' is more likely to be a massive move, on the mainland
>at least, toward using pinyin or some other phonetic-representation
>system, replacing hanzi altogether?

T MOR R LESS LIK CABLESE. PBLY USEFL NLY LMTED APPLC. TNX.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."