I was given 4 sampler boxes from Adagio, 1 white, 1 green, 1 oolong,
and 1 black. Each box has 4 tins with about 20-40 grams of tea.

The greens and whites have worked out fairly well. I don't like all of
them, but no real problems. The Adagio brewing recommendations are
imprecise, so a lot of experimenting was required, but I guess that's
to be expected due to individual tastes.

The oolongs also worked out well except for one, but I am having
problems with the blacks. I've posted some of my trials below. I;d
appreciate any comments or suggestions.

One problem I am having is telling the difference between bitter and
too strong. With greens, whites, and most oolongs, too strong tastes
different (to me) than bitter. With blacks, too strong tastes a lot
like bitter.

I'd also be intersted in whatever brewing parameters others are using
with these (or similar) teas. I'm starting to wonder if I am just a
wimp when it comes to strong flavors.

Finally, what do you all think about brewing black tea at lower
temperatures? I have had very good results with greens and whites at
much lower temperatures (as low as 140°). But I've read several
comments that blacks need to be at a rolling boil. Someone said the
biggest mistake with blacks in not using boiling water. I'm at sea
level, so I can actually get the water to 212°. What do people at
higher elevations do?

I am using 1 cup = 6 ounces.



My first problem came up with Ooooh Darjeeling

http://www.adagio.com/oolong/ooooh_d...7a69 4bfce631

So far, I have brewed two pots:

1. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 5:00 Undrinkable, bitter
2. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Still way too bitter / strong

I then diluted #2 by half, making it something like:

3. 3.4g, 18oz, 1.12g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Much better, slightly bitter

I'm putting this aside for now. I have 4g left. I'll try a much weaker
brew at a lower temperature later.



My next problem was with Yunnan Gold

http://www.adagio.com/black/yunnan_g...7a694bfce 631

So far, I have tried 2 pots:

1. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 5:00 Undrinkably bitter
2. 6.0g, 18oz, 2.00g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Still bitter and/or too strong

I have 13g left. I plan to try both weaker (~1.50g/cup) and cooler
(~180°).



My third problem tea is Assam Harmony

http://www.adagio.com/black/assam_ha...7a694bf ce631

This time I started off weaker and shorter. Two pots so far:

6.0g, 18oz, 2.00g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Barely drinkable, very bitter
4.5g, 18oz, 1.50g/cup, 212°, 2:00 Still too strong for me, bitter?

I have 16g left.

Square Peg > writes:

>One problem I am having is telling the difference between bitter and
>too strong. With greens, whites, and most oolongs, too strong tastes
>different (to me) than bitter. With blacks, too strong tastes a lot
>like bitter.

>I'd also be intersted in whatever brewing parameters others are using
>with these (or similar) teas. I'm starting to wonder if I am just a
>wimp when it comes to strong flavors.

I am currently drinking some black/green Puerh and I find it is the
least bitter tea I have ever had. I actually favor either blacks or
whites and these Puerhs over straight, normal greens because I almost
always over brew or mess up my green brewing such that it is a really
astringent thing.

Currently, I use about a third of a regular table teaspoon, or close to
an actual teaspoon of Puerh and get about three good brews out of it. I
use a cheap whistling tea kettle that gets the water close to, but not
quite boiling. For the first cup I do about five to five and one half
minutes of brewing. For the second cup I like at least five and one
half. For the third I usually go for six minutes or more.

These puerhs are very smooth, but strong, and without any hint of
astringency or bitterness. Actually, that is one thing I enjoy. I have
messed up and way overbrewed them, and they still aren't too bitter for
me to enjoy. I do that with a green, and it just...does not work.

--
Aaron W. Hsu > | <http://www.sacrideo.us>
"Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to
live at the expense of everybody else." -- Frederic Bastiat
+++++++++++++++ ((lambda (x) (x x)) (lambda (x) (x x))) ++++++++++++++

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 19:10:14 -0500, Aaron W. Hsu >
wrote:

>Square Peg > writes:
>
>>One problem I am having is telling the difference between bitter and
>>too strong. With greens, whites, and most oolongs, too strong tastes
>>different (to me) than bitter. With blacks, too strong tastes a lot
>>like bitter.
>
>>I'd also be intersted in whatever brewing parameters others are using
>>with these (or similar) teas. I'm starting to wonder if I am just a
>>wimp when it comes to strong flavors.
>
>I am currently drinking some black/green Puerh and I find it is the
>least bitter tea I have ever had. I actually favor either blacks or
>whites and these Puerhs over straight, normal greens because I almost
>always over brew or mess up my green brewing such that it is a really
>astringent thing.

I think I can tell the difference between bitter and astringent, but
I'm often not sure if a new is bitter or just too strong. I usually
cut down on the steep time. If it's still awful, then I conclude that
it was too strong.

>Currently, I use about a third of a regular table teaspoon, or close to
>an actual teaspoon of Puerh and get about three good brews out of it. I
>use a cheap whistling tea kettle that gets the water close to, but not
>quite boiling. For the first cup I do about five to five and one half
>minutes of brewing. For the second cup I like at least five and one
>half. For the third I usually go for six minutes or more.
>
>These puerhs are very smooth, but strong, and without any hint of
>astringency or bitterness. Actually, that is one thing I enjoy. I have
>messed up and way overbrewed them, and they still aren't too bitter for
>me to enjoy. I do that with a green, and it just...does not work.

I've only tried 2 puerhs and didn't like either. They are too strong.
This is a case where it is not bitterness.

"Square Peg" > wrote in message
...
>I was given 4 sampler boxes from Adagio, 1 white, 1 green, 1 oolong,
> and 1 black. Each box has 4 tins with about 20-40 grams of tea.
>
> The greens and whites have worked out fairly well. I don't like all of
> them, but no real problems. The Adagio brewing recommendations are
> imprecise, so a lot of experimenting was required, but I guess that's
> to be expected due to individual tastes.
>
> The oolongs also worked out well except for one, but I am having
> problems with the blacks. I've posted some of my trials below. I;d
> appreciate any comments or suggestions.
>
> One problem I am having is telling the difference between bitter and
> too strong. With greens, whites, and most oolongs, too strong tastes
> different (to me) than bitter. With blacks, too strong tastes a lot
> like bitter.
>
> I'd also be intersted in whatever brewing parameters others are using
> with these (or similar) teas. I'm starting to wonder if I am just a
> wimp when it comes to strong flavors.
>
> Finally, what do you all think about brewing black tea at lower
> temperatures? I have had very good results with greens and whites at
> much lower temperatures (as low as 140°). But I've read several
> comments that blacks need to be at a rolling boil. Someone said the
> biggest mistake with blacks in not using boiling water. I'm at sea
> level, so I can actually get the water to 212°. What do people at
> higher elevations do?
>
> I am using 1 cup = 6 ounces.
>
>
>
> My first problem came up with Ooooh Darjeeling
>
> http://www.adagio.com/oolong/ooooh_d...7a69 4bfce631
>
> So far, I have brewed two pots:
>
> 1. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 5:00 Undrinkable, bitter
> 2. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Still way too bitter / strong
>
> I then diluted #2 by half, making it something like:
>
> 3. 3.4g, 18oz, 1.12g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Much better, slightly bitter
>
> I'm putting this aside for now. I have 4g left. I'll try a much weaker
> brew at a lower temperature later.
>
>
>
> My next problem was with Yunnan Gold
>
> http://www.adagio.com/black/yunnan_g...7a694bfce 631
>
> So far, I have tried 2 pots:
>
> 1. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 5:00 Undrinkably bitter
> 2. 6.0g, 18oz, 2.00g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Still bitter and/or too strong
>
> I have 13g left. I plan to try both weaker (~1.50g/cup) and cooler
> (~180°).
>
>
>
> My third problem tea is Assam Harmony
>
> http://www.adagio.com/black/assam_ha...7a694bf ce631
>
> This time I started off weaker and shorter. Two pots so far:
>
> 6.0g, 18oz, 2.00g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Barely drinkable, very bitter
> 4.5g, 18oz, 1.50g/cup, 212°, 2:00 Still too strong for me, bitter?
>
> I have 16g left.

First, I don't think you're a wimp. Since black teas brewed too strong are
often also bitter, you may be tasting both too strong and bitter at the same
time. I prefer to think of what you're experiencing as an issue of
expectations.

a. Since you're doing taste tests, I recommend that you brew only one cup at
a time until you determine the best brewing parameters for your palate.
(Yes, 6 oz is the standard cup for tea; it allows room for the addition of
milk for those who prefer their black tea that way.) Go back to your 18 oz.
after you've got it figured out. Please note that you should perform these
trials on each new batch of tea because subtle differences may surface from
one batch to another.

I recommend that you brew to the minimum amount of time, stop the brew, and
taste with a spoon. A brewing basket makes it easy to be precise because
all you have to do is lift the basket from the water - if you don't have a
basket, just keep an eye on the clock so you don't lose track of time while
you use your spoon.

Continue the steep for another 30 seconds, stop the brew, and taste again.
If it's good, you'll know which time was better and you're done. If it's not
good, repeat the steps every 30 seconds until you get to the maximum time
recommended or reach the point of "ahh."

If it's too weak at the maximum time, repeat the test using more tea.

If it's too strong at the minimum time, repeat the test using less tea.


b. Yes, some Darjeelings are better brewed at a lower temperature. Since
this is under the category of "Oolong Teas" and is described as an oolong
Darjeeling, and isn't listed with Adagio's black Darjeelings, I'm confident
that it will be better when brewed at lower-than-boiling temperatures like
other oolongs.


c. Robust teas such as Assams are often consumed with milk. In fact, an
Assam may require milk to bring out the nuances. Another robust tea such as
Yunnan or a medium tea like Ceylon can go with or without milk. OTOH, a
medium tea like Keemun and a delicate tea like a Darjeeling are usually
enjoyed without milk. Therefore, after you find the optimal brewing
parameters, experiment with the addition of milk until you get your "ahh" or
conclude that it just isn't your cup of tea.

d. Yes, brew your black teas using boiling water. I do NOT recommend your
lowering the temperature for your Yunnan. As for the people at higher
elevations, they typically have to wait longer for their water to come to a
rolling boil.


HTH.


--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

On Mar 14, 4:09*am, "Bluesea" > wrote:
> Yes, brew your black teas using boiling water. I do NOT recommend your
> lowering the temperature for your Yunnan. As for the people at higher
> elevations, they typically have to wait longer for their water to come to a
> rolling boil.

good (does not mean expensive) blacks taste great at any temperature,
including Yunnan blacks which i've done in every temperature from room
temp to boiling.

Black teas are noted for spewing out tannins. They give the tea a
strong taste and will stain anything it touches. Bitter is more
tannins than desired. You didnt say what kind of leaf grade you were
working with. The finer grades get bitter faster. Id X the 5 minute
brews. The weights and times for a pot at 3 minutes feel about
right. The Indians usually drink Assam as Chai. Assam is an ancient
taste. I wouldnt classify Yunnan Gold as bitter. I classify it as an
Aroma tea, the more the better. If it feels harsh in the throat and
stomach it is bitter. Some like me call that desirable. See my
previous posts on grotty greens. You may not like Black teas.

Jim

PS Now Im hallucinating back to the sixties drinking some Yunnan
Black Gold. There was that one song by a black group about Time,
where the song drifts off into a cacophony of sound after a rim shot
ending present time. You start a cup in a state of time and end up in
another.

On Mar 13, 1:26 pm, Square Peg > wrote:
....que paso maestro...

"SN" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 14, 4:09 am, "Bluesea" > wrote:
> Yes, brew your black teas using boiling water. I do NOT recommend your
> lowering the temperature for your Yunnan. As for the people at higher
> elevations, they typically have to wait longer for their water to come to
> a
> rolling boil.

good (does not mean expensive) blacks taste great at any temperature,
including Yunnan blacks which i've done in every temperature from room
temp to boiling.


Consider his source.


--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 03:09:27 -0500, "Bluesea"
> wrote:

>
>"Square Peg" > wrote in message
.. .
>>I was given 4 sampler boxes from Adagio, 1 white, 1 green, 1 oolong,
>> and 1 black. Each box has 4 tins with about 20-40 grams of tea.
>>
>> The greens and whites have worked out fairly well. I don't like all of
>> them, but no real problems. The Adagio brewing recommendations are
>> imprecise, so a lot of experimenting was required, but I guess that's
>> to be expected due to individual tastes.
>>
>> The oolongs also worked out well except for one, but I am having
>> problems with the blacks. I've posted some of my trials below. I;d
>> appreciate any comments or suggestions.
>>
>> One problem I am having is telling the difference between bitter and
>> too strong. With greens, whites, and most oolongs, too strong tastes
>> different (to me) than bitter. With blacks, too strong tastes a lot
>> like bitter.
>>
>> I'd also be intersted in whatever brewing parameters others are using
>> with these (or similar) teas. I'm starting to wonder if I am just a
>> wimp when it comes to strong flavors.
>>
>> Finally, what do you all think about brewing black tea at lower
>> temperatures? I have had very good results with greens and whites at
>> much lower temperatures (as low as 140°). But I've read several
>> comments that blacks need to be at a rolling boil. Someone said the
>> biggest mistake with blacks in not using boiling water. I'm at sea
>> level, so I can actually get the water to 212°. What do people at
>> higher elevations do?
>>
>> I am using 1 cup = 6 ounces.
>>
>>
>>
>> My first problem came up with Ooooh Darjeeling
>>
>> http://www.adagio.com/oolong/ooooh_d...7a69 4bfce631
>>
>> So far, I have brewed two pots:
>>
>> 1. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 5:00 Undrinkable, bitter
>> 2. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Still way too bitter / strong
>>
>> I then diluted #2 by half, making it something like:
>>
>> 3. 3.4g, 18oz, 1.12g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Much better, slightly bitter
>>
>> I'm putting this aside for now. I have 4g left. I'll try a much weaker
>> brew at a lower temperature later.
>>
>>
>>
>> My next problem was with Yunnan Gold
>>
>> http://www.adagio.com/black/yunnan_g...7a694bfce 631
>>
>> So far, I have tried 2 pots:
>>
>> 1. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 5:00 Undrinkably bitter
>> 2. 6.0g, 18oz, 2.00g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Still bitter and/or too strong
>>
>> I have 13g left. I plan to try both weaker (~1.50g/cup) and cooler
>> (~180°).
>>
>>
>>
>> My third problem tea is Assam Harmony
>>
>> http://www.adagio.com/black/assam_ha...7a694bf ce631
>>
>> This time I started off weaker and shorter. Two pots so far:
>>
>> 6.0g, 18oz, 2.00g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Barely drinkable, very bitter
>> 4.5g, 18oz, 1.50g/cup, 212°, 2:00 Still too strong for me, bitter?
>>
>> I have 16g left.
>
>First, I don't think you're a wimp. Since black teas brewed too strong are
>often also bitter, you may be tasting both too strong and bitter at the same
>time. I prefer to think of what you're experiencing as an issue of
>expectations.
>
>a. Since you're doing taste tests, I recommend that you brew only one cup at
>a time until you determine the best brewing parameters for your palate.
>(Yes, 6 oz is the standard cup for tea; it allows room for the addition of
>milk for those who prefer their black tea that way.) Go back to your 18 oz.
>after you've got it figured out. Please note that you should perform these
>trials on each new batch of tea because subtle differences may surface from
>one batch to another.
>
>I recommend that you brew to the minimum amount of time, stop the brew, and
>taste with a spoon. A brewing basket makes it easy to be precise because
>all you have to do is lift the basket from the water - if you don't have a
>basket, just keep an eye on the clock so you don't lose track of time while
>you use your spoon.
>
>Continue the steep for another 30 seconds, stop the brew, and taste again.
>If it's good, you'll know which time was better and you're done. If it's not
>good, repeat the steps every 30 seconds until you get to the maximum time
>recommended or reach the point of "ahh."
>
>If it's too weak at the maximum time, repeat the test using more tea.
>
>If it's too strong at the minimum time, repeat the test using less tea.

I used to brew just 1-2 cups when testing a new tea. I changed to 3
cups because I discovered that I often feel differently about a tea in
the 2nd or 3rd cup than I did on the first sip. (And, I have a 3 cup
thermos. ;-))

This is a great suggestion to get a rough first guesstimate on the
time. I'll give it a try. One spoonful would certainly be enough to
tell if it's way too weak or has become bitter.

I usually use an ingenuiTea, but I do have a basket infuser. I think
I'll just let the steep continue and take a spoonful every 30 seconds
or so.

>b. Yes, some Darjeelings are better brewed at a lower temperature. Since
>this is under the category of "Oolong Teas" and is described as an oolong
>Darjeeling, and isn't listed with Adagio's black Darjeelings, I'm confident
>that it will be better when brewed at lower-than-boiling temperatures like
>other oolongs.
>
>
>c. Robust teas such as Assams are often consumed with milk. In fact, an
>Assam may require milk to bring out the nuances. Another robust tea such as
>Yunnan or a medium tea like Ceylon can go with or without milk. OTOH, a
>medium tea like Keemun and a delicate tea like a Darjeeling are usually
>enjoyed without milk. Therefore, after you find the optimal brewing
>parameters, experiment with the addition of milk until you get your "ahh" or
>conclude that it just isn't your cup of tea.

I have been resisting using anything in the tea. I guess I should
rethink that.

How does this work if I brew 5-6 cups for a large thermos to be drunk
over a day at the office? Is there any problem adding the milk to the
thermos? I like being able to stay at my desk and just pour from the
thermos into my cup. I wouldn't want to have to go to the break room
for milk. I suppose I could have some of those little creamers that
don't require refrigeration.

>d. Yes, brew your black teas using boiling water. I do NOT recommend your
>lowering the temperature for your Yunnan.

That's what I've read. I did try some of the blacks at lower
temperatures. I don't recall how that went. I think one or two tasted
better at 190° or 180°.

>As for the people at higher
>elevations, they typically have to wait longer for their water to come to a
>rolling boil.

If I recall my physics correctly, water will never exceed the boiling
point. Here's what Wikipedia says about the boiling point of water at
various elevations (inches of Mercury (Hg)):

Hg Boiling Point ~Elev (ft) Location
31 214.0°F 101.1°C ~-1,000 Dead Sea
30 212.2°F 100.0°C Sea level San Francisco, London
29 210.3 F 99.1°C ~1,000 Ashley, Indiana
28 208.4°F 98.0°C ~2,000 Stoystown, Pennsylvania
27 206.6°F 97.0°C ~3,000 Jefferson, North Carolina
25 202.9°F 94.9°C ~5,000 Denver, Colorado
23 199.2°F 92.9°C ~7,000 Deer Valley, Utah
21 195.5°F 90.8°C ~10,000 Sucre, Bolivia
19 191.8°F 88.8°C ~12,000 Lhasa, Tibet
17 188.1°F 86.7°C ~15,000 Mt Kilimangaro
10 175.1°F 79.5°C ~27,000 Mt Everest

Someone living at ~6,000 feet would not be able to get water hotter
than about 200°F.

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 06:53:14 -0700 (PDT), SN >
wrote:

>On Mar 14, 4:09*am, "Bluesea" > wrote:
>> Yes, brew your black teas using boiling water. I do NOT recommend your
>> lowering the temperature for your Yunnan. As for the people at higher
>> elevations, they typically have to wait longer for their water to come to a
>> rolling boil.
>
>good (does not mean expensive) blacks taste great at any temperature,
>including Yunnan blacks which i've done in every temperature from room
>temp to boiling.

That has been my experience. Why are so many "experts" so adamant
about a rolling boil? I can't find the link right now, but one said
something like, "The single biggest mistake in brewing black tea is
not getting the water to a rolling boil.".

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 07:18:20 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>Black teas are noted for spewing out tannins. They give the tea a
>strong taste and will stain anything it touches. Bitter is more
>tannins than desired.

I still don't know the difference between "bitter" and "too strong".

I guess I could brew a pot at 10x strength (20g/cup) for 30 seconds.
That would certainly be too strong and should not be bitter.

>You didnt say what kind of leaf grade you were
>working with.

I provided links to the vendor. That's all I know. (Actually, that's
more than I know.)

>The finer grades get bitter faster. Id X the 5 minute
>brews. The weights and times for a pot at 3 minutes feel about
>right.

That's what I've concluded.

>The Indians usually drink Assam as Chai. Assam is an ancient
>taste. I wouldnt classify Yunnan Gold as bitter. I classify it as an
>Aroma tea, the more the better. If it feels harsh in the throat and
>stomach it is bitter.

And how would that differ from how a pot that was too strong, but not
bitter, feel?

I don't recall ever having anything feel harsh in my stomach.

>Some like me call that desirable. See my
>previous posts on grotty greens. You may not like Black teas.

Possibly. I cannot tolerate coffee or beer. My son loves dark beers,
which I find unbearably bitter.

>Jim
>
>PS Now Im hallucinating back to the sixties drinking some Yunnan
>Black Gold. There was that one song by a black group about Time,
>where the song drifts off into a cacophony of sound after a rim shot
>ending present time. You start a cup in a state of time and end up in
>another.
>
>On Mar 13, 1:26 pm, Square Peg > wrote:
>...que paso maestro...

"Square Peg" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 03:09:27 -0500, "Bluesea"
> > wrote:
>
> How does this work if I brew 5-6 cups for a large thermos to be drunk
> over a day at the office? Is there any problem adding the milk to the
> thermos? I like being able to stay at my desk and just pour from the
> thermos into my cup. I wouldn't want to have to go to the break room
> for milk. I suppose I could have some of those little creamers that
> don't require refrigeration.

No, you may add milk to the thermos. But, wouldn't that cool the tea/warm
the milk?
I'd prefer to pour tea into a cup and then add milk to avoid ending up with
a thermos of lukewarm milk tea.

Perhaps a small ice chest under your desk would work to hold your milk. I
got a 4-can cooler sack for only a couple of dollars from campmor.com. Look
around and see if there's anything else you might want or the shipping will
be more than the merchandise.


>>d. Yes, brew your black teas using boiling water. I do NOT recommend your
>>lowering the temperature for your Yunnan.
>
> That's what I've read. I did try some of the blacks at lower
> temperatures. I don't recall how that went. I think one or two tasted
> better at 190° or 180°.

The thing is, you've got too many variables to be varying the standards at
this time. IMO, it's best to fiddle with boiling/not boiling after you find
the best time and amount with boiling. But, since it's your tea, you're free
to do with it as you want.

>>As for the people at higher
>>elevations, they typically have to wait longer for their water to come to
>>a
>>rolling boil.
>
> If I recall my physics correctly, water will never exceed the boiling
> point.

Heated water will also evaporate and if it's continued long enough, the pot
will be empty.

Have fun with your taste trials!

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

On 14 Mar, 08:09, "Bluesea" > wrote:

>As for the people at higher
> elevations, they typically have to wait longer for their water to come to a
> rolling boil.

From observation (and without checking the physics) I think that water
at higher elevations actually comes to a rolling boil quicker than at
sea level. As Square Peg points out, water at the top of Everest
boils at 175.1°F or 79.5°C - the heat input required for this being
significantly less than raising the same mass of water to 212°F -
thus, given the same kettle (and rate of heat input) the water will
achieve a rolling boil more speedily. The ultimate extension of this
is to try the experiment in at 30 miles or so high when water will
boil at ambient temperture!

Incidentally the main reason you cannot get a decent cup of (black)
tea on an airplane is that cabins are pressurized to 9,000 ft where
the rolling boil occurs at around 197°F

Nigel at Teacraft

On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 12:15:47 -0700 (PDT), Nigel >
wrote:

>On 14 Mar, 08:09, "Bluesea" > wrote:
>
>>As for the people at higher
>> elevations, they typically have to wait longer for their water to come to a
>> rolling boil.
>
>From observation (and without checking the physics) I think that water
>at higher elevations actually comes to a rolling boil quicker than at
>sea level. As Square Peg points out, water at the top of Everest
>boils at 175.1°F or 79.5°C - the heat input required for this being
>significantly less than raising the same mass of water to 212°F -
>thus, given the same kettle (and rate of heat input) the water will
>achieve a rolling boil more speedily. The ultimate extension of this
>is to try the experiment in at 30 miles or so high when water will
>boil at ambient temperture!

I don't know if 30 miles is high enough, but it will at zero gravity.
The formula for the boiling point is complicated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point

>Incidentally the main reason you cannot get a decent cup of (black)
>tea on an airplane is that cabins are pressurized to 9,000 ft where
>the rolling boil occurs at around 197°F

It sounds like you are one of those who believes that black tea must
be brewed at 212°F. Have you tried it at 190°F or lower? How is it
inferior?

Bitter is puckering of the mouth, constriction of the throat, cramping
of the stomach, each to some degree. The hairs on my neck usually
stand up. Bitter isnt a learned taste, its automatic like unripe
persimmon. Overcook any of the other greens like spinach, collard
greens, turnip greens you'll get the picture. Strong my teeth ache,
bitter my eyes hurt. Get some generic black tea bags, start adding to
the dunks each time starting afresh . At some point you wont like the
taste. That is bitter. If you never like the taste there you go.

Jim

On Mar 14, 10:56 am, Square Peg > wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Mar 2009 07:18:20 -0700 (PDT),
> wrote:
>
> >Black teas are noted for spewing out tannins. They give the tea a
> >strong taste and will stain anything it touches. Bitter is more
> >tannins than desired.
>
> I still don't know the difference between "bitter" and "too strong".
>
> I guess I could brew a pot at 10x strength (20g/cup) for 30 seconds.
> That would certainly be too strong and should not be bitter.

writes:

> Bitter is puckering of the mouth, constriction of the throat, cramping
> of the stomach, each to some degree. The hairs on my neck usually
> stand up. Bitter isnt a learned taste, its automatic like unripe
> persimmon. Overcook any of the other greens like spinach, collard
> greens, turnip greens you'll get the picture.

Sorry, but you've described what I would call "astringent". "Bitter"
is unsweetened chocolate, quinine, kudingcha.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Square Peg > wrote:
>
>One problem I am having is telling the difference between bitter and
>too strong. With greens, whites, and most oolongs, too strong tastes
>different (to me) than bitter. With blacks, too strong tastes a lot
>like bitter.

The advantage of the blacks in this regard is that you have only two
parameters: amount of tea and time.

>I'd also be intersted in whatever brewing parameters others are using
>with these (or similar) teas. I'm starting to wonder if I am just a
>wimp when it comes to strong flavors.

I don't know. I tend to use a lot of tea and brew for a short amount
of time, but that's just me. The method you use also changes things...
a small infuser will require different parameters than a brew basket
or just tossing tea into a pot.

>Finally, what do you all think about brewing black tea at lower
>temperatures? I have had very good results with greens and whites at
>much lower temperatures (as low as 140°). But I've read several
>comments that blacks need to be at a rolling boil. Someone said the
>biggest mistake with blacks in not using boiling water. I'm at sea
>level, so I can actually get the water to 212°. What do people at
>higher elevations do?

Some of them use CTC teas, which brew differently than orthodx teas.
Most of them just make lousy tea. In Denver, I find it very hard to
make good black teas, and in Tibet they pollute their tea with rancid
yak butter, even.

I have never had decent tea on an airplane, even when I have brewed it
myself.

>i am using 1 cup = 6 ounces.

And a teaspoon of typical tea would be a good start. I think your times
are kind of long, personally.

Also be aware that some black teas out there are meant to be consumed with
milk.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 15 Mar 2009 13:11:34 -0400, Lewis Perin > wrote:

writes:
>
>> Bitter is puckering of the mouth, constriction of the throat, cramping
>> of the stomach, each to some degree. The hairs on my neck usually
>> stand up. Bitter isnt a learned taste, its automatic like unripe
>> persimmon. Overcook any of the other greens like spinach, collard
>> greens, turnip greens you'll get the picture.
>
>Sorry, but you've described what I would call "astringent". "Bitter"
>is unsweetened chocolate, quinine, kudingcha.

That's what I thought. In medicine, an astringent is a substance or
preparation, such as alum, that draws together or constricts body
tissues and is effective in stopping the flow of blood or other
secretions.

Bitter, to me, is more acidic or biting.

Now, how is bitter different from "too strong"? In your chocolate
example, does the sweetener make it less bitter or less strong?

For some substances, it's easy. Salt, for example, can be too strong,
but I'd never call even pure salt bitter. Same with onion and garlic.

Green tea is also farily easy. I don't like most senchas if they are
very strong at all, but even a weak sencha, if brewed too long, will
become bitter, which is a different taste.

With black teas, I have more trouble telling the difference.

On 15 Mar 2009 13:40:23 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>Square Peg > wrote:
>>
>>One problem I am having is telling the difference between bitter and
>>too strong. With greens, whites, and most oolongs, too strong tastes
>>different (to me) than bitter. With blacks, too strong tastes a lot
>>like bitter.
>
>The advantage of the blacks in this regard is that you have only two
>parameters: amount of tea and time.
>
>>I'd also be intersted in whatever brewing parameters others are using
>>with these (or similar) teas. I'm starting to wonder if I am just a
>>wimp when it comes to strong flavors.
>
>I don't know. I tend to use a lot of tea and brew for a short amount
>of time, but that's just me.

I am coming to the conclusion that using much shorter times will work
better for me.

>The method you use also changes things...
>a small infuser will require different parameters than a brew basket
>or just tossing tea into a pot.
>
>>Finally, what do you all think about brewing black tea at lower
>>temperatures? I have had very good results with greens and whites at
>>much lower temperatures (as low as 140°). But I've read several
>>comments that blacks need to be at a rolling boil. Someone said the
>>biggest mistake with blacks in not using boiling water. I'm at sea
>>level, so I can actually get the water to 212°. What do people at
>>higher elevations do?
>
>Some of them use CTC teas, which brew differently than orthodx teas.
>Most of them just make lousy tea. In Denver, I find it very hard to
>make good black teas, and in Tibet they pollute their tea with rancid
>yak butter, even.
>
>I have never had decent tea on an airplane, even when I have brewed it
>myself.
>
>>i am using 1 cup = 6 ounces.
>
>And a teaspoon of typical tea would be a good start. I think your times
>are kind of long, personally.
>
>Also be aware that some black teas out there are meant to be consumed with
>milk.

It would be helpful if they said that. ;-) Thanks

Square Peg > writes:

> On 15 Mar 2009 13:11:34 -0400, Lewis Perin > wrote:
>
> writes:
> >
> >> Bitter is puckering of the mouth, constriction of the throat, cramping
> >> of the stomach, each to some degree. The hairs on my neck usually
> >> stand up. Bitter isnt a learned taste, its automatic like unripe
> >> persimmon. Overcook any of the other greens like spinach, collard
> >> greens, turnip greens you'll get the picture.
> >
> >Sorry, but you've described what I would call "astringent". "Bitter"
> >is unsweetened chocolate, quinine, kudingcha.
>
> That's what I thought. In medicine, an astringent is a substance or
> preparation, such as alum, that draws together or constricts body
> tissues and is effective in stopping the flow of blood or other
> secretions.
>
> Bitter, to me, is more acidic or biting.
>
> Now, how is bitter different from "too strong"?

Uh, I'm not the one who brought up the term "strong". I rarely find
teas, at least, too strong.

> In your chocolate example, does the sweetener make it less bitter or
> less strong?

Less bitter.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

I described the symtoms. You can call it a rose for all I care. Yeah
calling it astringent makes it taste better.

Jim

On Mar 15, 11:11 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> writes:
> > Bitter is puckering of the mouth, constriction of the throat, cramping
> > of the stomach, each to some degree. The hairs on my neck usually
> > stand up. Bitter isnt a learned taste, its automatic like unripe
> > persimmon. Overcook any of the other greens like spinach, collard
> > greens, turnip greens you'll get the picture.
>
> Sorry, but you've described what I would call "astringent". "Bitter"
> is unsweetened chocolate, quinine, kudingcha.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

On 15 Mar 2009 14:56:45 -0400, Lewis Perin > wrote:

>Square Peg > writes:
>
>> On 15 Mar 2009 13:11:34 -0400, Lewis Perin > wrote:
>>
>> writes:
>> >
>> >> Bitter is puckering of the mouth, constriction of the throat, cramping
>> >> of the stomach, each to some degree. The hairs on my neck usually
>> >> stand up. Bitter isnt a learned taste, its automatic like unripe
>> >> persimmon. Overcook any of the other greens like spinach, collard
>> >> greens, turnip greens you'll get the picture.
>> >
>> >Sorry, but you've described what I would call "astringent". "Bitter"
>> >is unsweetened chocolate, quinine, kudingcha.
>>
>> That's what I thought. In medicine, an astringent is a substance or
>> preparation, such as alum, that draws together or constricts body
>> tissues and is effective in stopping the flow of blood or other
>> secretions.
>>
>> Bitter, to me, is more acidic or biting.
>>
>> Now, how is bitter different from "too strong"?
>
>Uh, I'm not the one who brought up the term "strong". I rarely find
>teas, at least, too strong.

Uh, I didn't say you did. I brought it up. I'm trying to figure out
how to tell if a particular pot is bitter or too strong.

>> In your chocolate example, does the sweetener make it less bitter or
>> less strong?
>
>Less bitter.
>
>/Lew
>---
>Lew Perin /
>http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Mar 15, 7:34*pm, Square Peg > wrote:
>
> Uh, I didn't say you did. I brought it up. I'm trying to figure out
> how to tell if a particular pot is bitter or too strong.
>


Is an orange too apple?

Nigel at Teacraft

Square Peg > writes:

> On 15 Mar 2009 14:56:45 -0400, Lewis Perin > wrote:
>
> >Square Peg > writes:
> >
> >> On 15 Mar 2009 13:11:34 -0400, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> >>
> >> writes:
> >> >
> >> >> Bitter is puckering of the mouth, constriction of the throat, cramping
> >> >> of the stomach, each to some degree. The hairs on my neck usually
> >> >> stand up. Bitter isnt a learned taste, its automatic like unripe
> >> >> persimmon. Overcook any of the other greens like spinach, collard
> >> >> greens, turnip greens you'll get the picture.
> >> >
> >> >Sorry, but you've described what I would call "astringent". "Bitter"
> >> >is unsweetened chocolate, quinine, kudingcha.
> >>
> >> That's what I thought. In medicine, an astringent is a substance or
> >> preparation, such as alum, that draws together or constricts body
> >> tissues and is effective in stopping the flow of blood or other
> >> secretions.
> >>
> >> Bitter, to me, is more acidic or biting.
> >>
> >> Now, how is bitter different from "too strong"?
> >
> >Uh, I'm not the one who brought up the term "strong". I rarely find
> >teas, at least, too strong.
>
> Uh, I didn't say you did. I brought it up. I'm trying to figure out
> how to tell if a particular pot is bitter or too strong.

Sorry about not trying to answer the question(s) in your original
post, but I was responding to a later post.

By the way, when you identify bitterness with acidity, I don't see how
this could be right. Acidity = sourness. I'm sure I've read that the
human sensory apparatus has separate receptors for bitterness and
sourness, among very few other taste components.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

[lew]
> > >> >Sorry, but you've described what I would call "astringent". *"Bitter"
> > >> >is unsweetened chocolate, quinine, kudingcha.

[corax] whereas 'sour' is lemon juice, yoghurt, tamarind -- right?

[lew]
> By the way, when you identify bitterness with acidity, I don't see how
> this could be right. Acidity = sourness. I'm sure I've read that the
> human sensory apparatus has separate receptors for bitterness and
> sourness, among very few other taste components.

[corax] and i was just getting ready to say: i think some people
confuse 'bitter' with 'sour.' bingo.

On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 03:49:27 -0700 (PDT), Nigel >
wrote:

>On Mar 15, 7:34*pm, Square Peg > wrote:
>>
>> Uh, I didn't say you did. I brought it up. I'm trying to figure out
>> how to tell if a particular pot is bitter or too strong.
>
>Is an orange too apple?
>
>Nigel at Teacraft

Moron

corax > writes:

> [lew]
> > > >> >Sorry, but you've described what I would call "astringent". *"Bitter"
> > > >> >is unsweetened chocolate, quinine, kudingcha.
>
> [corax] whereas 'sour' is lemon juice, yoghurt, tamarind -- right?

Exactly.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:26:57 -0700, Square Peg >
wrote:

>I was given 4 sampler boxes from Adagio, 1 white, 1 green, 1 oolong,
>and 1 black. Each box has 4 tins with about 20-40 grams of tea.

....snip...

>My next problem was with Yunnan Gold
>
>http://www.adagio.com/black/yunnan_g...7a694bfce 631
>
>So far, I have tried 2 pots:
>
>1. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 5:00 Undrinkably bitter
>2. 6.0g, 18oz, 2.00g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Still bitter and/or too strong
>
>I have 13g left. I plan to try both weaker (~1.50g/cup) and cooler
>(~180°).

Quick update. I just brewed my third pot:

3. 4.5g, 18oz, 1.50g/cup, 212°, 2:00

This was actually quite good. I might even try it slightly stronger.

I took a measurement to find out what 1 tsp weighs. I found that 10
tsp weigh 11.8 grams, so 1 tsp ~= 1.18g. That's even weaker than my
third pot and almost half the strength of my first pot.

I think I'll order a larger sample.

> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:26:57 -0700, Square Peg >
> wrote:
>
>>I was given 4 sampler boxes from Adagio, 1 white, 1 green, 1 oolong,
>>and 1 black. Each box has 4 tins with about 20-40 grams of tea.
>
> ...snip...
>
>>My next problem was with Yunnan Gold
>>
>>http://www.adagio.com/black/yunnan_g...7a694bfce 631
>>
>>So far, I have tried 2 pots:
>>
>>1. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 5:00 Undrinkably bitter
>>2. 6.0g, 18oz, 2.00g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Still bitter and/or too strong
>>
>>I have 13g left. I plan to try both weaker (~1.50g/cup) and cooler
>>(~180°).
>
> Quick update. I just brewed my third pot:
>
> 3. 4.5g, 18oz, 1.50g/cup, 212°, 2:00
>
> This was actually quite good. I might even try it slightly stronger.
>
> I took a measurement to find out what 1 tsp weighs. I found that 10
> tsp weigh 11.8 grams, so 1 tsp ~= 1.18g. That's even weaker than my
> third pot and almost half the strength of my first pot.

Is that a measuring teaspoon or a flatware teaspoon? Also, please be aware
that the type of leaf will affect the volume which will, of course, affect
the weight.

> I think I'll order a larger sample.

Sounds like you're making progress.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:13:55 -0500, "Bluesea"
> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
.. .
>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:26:57 -0700, Square Peg >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>I was given 4 sampler boxes from Adagio, 1 white, 1 green, 1 oolong,
>>>and 1 black. Each box has 4 tins with about 20-40 grams of tea.
>>
>> ...snip...
>>
>>>My next problem was with Yunnan Gold
>>>
>>>http://www.adagio.com/black/yunnan_g...7a694bfce 631
>>>
>>>So far, I have tried 2 pots:
>>>
>>>1. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 5:00 Undrinkably bitter
>>>2. 6.0g, 18oz, 2.00g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Still bitter and/or too strong
>>>
>>>I have 13g left. I plan to try both weaker (~1.50g/cup) and cooler
>>>(~180°).
>>
>> Quick update. I just brewed my third pot:
>>
>> 3. 4.5g, 18oz, 1.50g/cup, 212°, 2:00
>>
>> This was actually quite good. I might even try it slightly stronger.
>>
>> I took a measurement to find out what 1 tsp weighs. I found that 10
>> tsp weigh 11.8 grams, so 1 tsp ~= 1.18g. That's even weaker than my
>> third pot and almost half the strength of my first pot.
>
>Is that a measuring teaspoon or a flatware teaspoon?

Give me a little credit...

>Also, please be aware
>that the type of leaf will affect the volume which will, of course, affect
>the weight.

Er, uh, that's why I am weighing...

>> I think I'll order a larger sample.
>
>Sounds like you're making progress.

> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:13:55 -0500, "Bluesea"
> > wrote:
>
>>
> wrote in message
. ..
>>> On Fri, 13 Mar 2009 12:26:57 -0700, Square Peg >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I was given 4 sampler boxes from Adagio, 1 white, 1 green, 1 oolong,
>>>>and 1 black. Each box has 4 tins with about 20-40 grams of tea.
>>>
>>> ...snip...
>>>
>>>>My next problem was with Yunnan Gold
>>>>
>>>>http://www.adagio.com/black/yunnan_g...7a694bfce 631
>>>>
>>>>So far, I have tried 2 pots:
>>>>
>>>>1. 6.8g, 18oz, 2.25g/cup, 212°, 5:00 Undrinkably bitter
>>>>2. 6.0g, 18oz, 2.00g/cup, 212°, 3:00 Still bitter and/or too strong
>>>>
>>>>I have 13g left. I plan to try both weaker (~1.50g/cup) and cooler
>>>>(~180°).
>>>
>>> Quick update. I just brewed my third pot:
>>>
>>> 3. 4.5g, 18oz, 1.50g/cup, 212°, 2:00
>>>
>>> This was actually quite good. I might even try it slightly stronger.
>>>
>>> I took a measurement to find out what 1 tsp weighs. I found that 10
>>> tsp weigh 11.8 grams, so 1 tsp ~= 1.18g. That's even weaker than my
>>> third pot and almost half the strength of my first pot.
>>
>>Is that a measuring teaspoon or a flatware teaspoon?
>
> Give me a little credit...

LOL!

>>Also, please be aware
>>that the type of leaf will affect the volume which will, of course, affect
>>the weight.
>
> Er, uh, that's why I am weighing...

I'm confused because you were weighing before. What's the point of measuring
with a teaspoon and weighing that amount when the volume of each tea is
going to be different and weighing is the accurate way to measure? It
strikes me that you're introducing an extra, unnecessary step that yields
data of inconsequential significance since it will vary from tea to tea.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

"Bluesea" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm confused because you were weighing before.

I'm used to people going from using a teaspoon to a scale to obtain an
accurate measurement and you're going from the accurate method to the
inaccurate. Sorry, but it seems like you're going backward for no useful
reason that I can discern. Please enlighten me.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 01:20:22 -0500, "Bluesea"
> wrote:

>
>"Bluesea" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> I'm confused because you were weighing before.
>
>I'm used to people going from using a teaspoon to a scale to obtain an
>accurate measurement and you're going from the accurate method to the
>inaccurate. Sorry, but it seems like you're going backward for no useful
>reason that I can discern. Please enlighten me.

I am going to continue using a scale.

Most vendors provide brewing instructions in volume units and it's
usually 1 tsp/cup. I am measuring to find out how much a tsp weighs.

As you say, it varies a lot.

On Mar 19, 2:36*pm, wrote:
> I am going to continue using a scale.
>
> Most vendors provide brewing instructions in volume units and it's
> usually 1 tsp/cup. I am measuring to find out how much a tsp weighs.
>
> As you say, it varies a lot.

I hate to say it but I really think you are just continually
complicating matters for no discernible reason but to stick to some
scientific ideal with no basis in anything. I'm not saying this to be
rude, we've already been there and back, but at some point you have to
be realistic and see that your desire to ignore most everything said,
and thousands of years of history, and sticking to arbitrary
"measurements" has rarely turned out for the positive. You are trying
to quantify something that cannot be quantified in the way you or
vendors are trying to do. At most you are going to get an
approximation even with the most rigid measurement.

I honestly gave you probably the best advice I could hope to in your
last thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...ae2ccb1bb04c64

You're free to do as you will, certainly, but I just don't get why you
keep to this rigid structure but keep posting here for unscientific/
unmetered advice. If your method is sound it will result in
"perfection" eventually on its own, our meddling will only delay that.
Seriously if your efforts were creating amazing results I could
understand, but it's just not going to happen. Let go a bit, come at
it from a new angle, and see what happens... even if just to prove
everyone wrong.

- Dominic

> wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 01:20:22 -0500, "Bluesea"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Bluesea" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>> I'm confused because you were weighing before.
>>
>>I'm used to people going from using a teaspoon to a scale to obtain an
>>accurate measurement and you're going from the accurate method to the
>>inaccurate. Sorry, but it seems like you're going backward for no useful
>>reason that I can discern. Please enlighten me.
>
> I am going to continue using a scale.
>
> Most vendors provide brewing instructions in volume units and it's
> usually 1 tsp/cup. I am measuring to find out how much a tsp weighs.
>
> As you say, it varies a lot.

You still haven't answered my question and I'm not enlightened. Sure,
vendors suggest 1 tsp. per cup because there are those who don't know better
and who don't have scales. Since you apparently don't fall into that
category, please correct me if I'm wrong, what's the point in weighing the
amount of tea that a teaspoon holds?

It stills strikes me that you're going backwards. Did you just get your
scale? Is that why you're weighing the amount a teaspoon holds? I can
understand it if you want to see the difference between measuring by volume
and by weight if you just got a scale because that's what people do when
they transition from one method to another. After a while, though, they get
over it and don't go back as you seem to be doing. That's why I'm asking
about your motivation. It doesn't serve a purpose that I can see.

--
~~Bluesea~~
Spam is great in musubi, but not in email.
Please take out the trash before sending a direct reply.

On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:08:31 -0700 (PDT), "Dominic T."
> wrote:

>On Mar 19, 2:36*pm, wrote:
>> I am going to continue using a scale.
>>
>> Most vendors provide brewing instructions in volume units and it's
>> usually 1 tsp/cup. I am measuring to find out how much a tsp weighs.
>>
>> As you say, it varies a lot.
>
>I hate to say it but I really think you are just continually
>complicating matters for no discernible reason but to stick to some
>scientific ideal with no basis in anything. I'm not saying this to be
>rude, we've already been there and back, but at some point you have to
>be realistic and see that your desire to ignore most everything said,
>and thousands of years of history, and sticking to arbitrary
>"measurements" has rarely turned out for the positive. You are trying
>to quantify something that cannot be quantified in the way you or
>vendors are trying to do. At most you are going to get an
>approximation even with the most rigid measurement.
>
>I honestly gave you probably the best advice I could hope to in your
>last thread:
>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...ae2ccb1bb04c64
>
>You're free to do as you will, certainly, but I just don't get why you
>keep to this rigid structure but keep posting here for unscientific/
>unmetered advice. If your method is sound it will result in
>"perfection" eventually on its own, our meddling will only delay that.
>Seriously if your efforts were creating amazing results I could
>understand, but it's just not going to happen.

(sigh) I'm just doing a little experimenting. It has already yielded a
lot of information that is valuable to me. I understand that neither
my approach nor probably any information that I obtain is of any
interest to you and seems to be offensive (otherwise, why would you
continue to tell me what an idiot I am?). But I am not trying to
convince you to use my methods. Why do you need to keep telling me
that I am doing it all wrong? I have heard your perspective every time
you have made it. I've adopted what I can. Why is that not good
enough?

>Let go a bit, come at it from a new angle, and see what happens...

Have you considered this advice for yourself?

>even if just to prove everyone wrong.

Projection?

On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 21:07:58 -0500, "Bluesea"
> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
.. .
>> On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 01:20:22 -0500, "Bluesea"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Bluesea" > wrote in message
...
>>>>
>>>> I'm confused because you were weighing before.
>>>
>>>I'm used to people going from using a teaspoon to a scale to obtain an
>>>accurate measurement and you're going from the accurate method to the
>>>inaccurate. Sorry, but it seems like you're going backward for no useful
>>>reason that I can discern. Please enlighten me.
>>
>> I am going to continue using a scale.
>>
>> Most vendors provide brewing instructions in volume units and it's
>> usually 1 tsp/cup. I am measuring to find out how much a tsp weighs.
>>
>> As you say, it varies a lot.
>
>You still haven't answered my question and I'm not enlightened. Sure,
>vendors suggest 1 tsp. per cup because there are those who don't know better
>and who don't have scales. Since you apparently don't fall into that
>category, please correct me if I'm wrong, what's the point in weighing the
>amount of tea that a teaspoon holds?
>
>It stills strikes me that you're going backwards. Did you just get your
>scale? Is that why you're weighing the amount a teaspoon holds? I can
>understand it if you want to see the difference between measuring by volume
>and by weight if you just got a scale because that's what people do when
>they transition from one method to another. After a while, though, they get
>over it and don't go back as you seem to be doing. That's why I'm asking
>about your motivation. It doesn't serve a purpose that I can see.

It's just data. It serves at least a couple of purposes.

1. The vendor says to use 1 tsp / cup. Since I want to use weight, I'd
like to know what a teaspoon of this tea weights. It doesn't take long
to measure 10-20 tsp into a scale cup. I am going to adjust the amount
of tea to suit my taste, but this gives me a starting point and a
reference point.

2. Measuring by volume is easier than by weight. I can measure 3-4 tsp
more quickly than I can measure 9.7 g. Once I know roughly how strong
I like the tea, converting back to teaspooons can be useful.

3. It's just interesting data. What can I say. I'm an engineer. I like
data and pocket protectors. ;-)

PS: I've had a scale since I started drinking tea.

On Mar 20, 2:00*pm, wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:08:31 -0700 (PDT), "Dominic T."
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Mar 19, 2:36*pm, wrote:
> >> I am going to continue using a scale.
>
> >> Most vendors provide brewing instructions in volume units and it's
> >> usually 1 tsp/cup. I am measuring to find out how much a tsp weighs.
>
> >> As you say, it varies a lot.
>
> >I hate to say it but I really think you are just continually
> >complicating matters for no discernible reason but to stick to some
> >scientific ideal with no basis in anything. I'm not saying this to be
> >rude, we've already been there and back, but at some point you have to
> >be realistic and see that your desire to ignore most everything said,
> >and thousands of years of history, and sticking to arbitrary
> >"measurements" has rarely turned out for the positive. You are trying
> >to quantify something that cannot be quantified in the way you or
> >vendors are trying to do. At most you are going to get an
> >approximation even with the most rigid measurement.
>
> >I honestly gave you probably the best advice I could hope to in your
> >last thread:
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...e_frm/thread/6...
>
> >You're free to do as you will, certainly, but I just don't get why you
> >keep to this rigid structure but keep posting here for unscientific/
> >unmetered advice. If your method is sound it will result in
> >"perfection" eventually on its own, our meddling will only delay that.
> >Seriously if your efforts were creating amazing results I could
> >understand, but it's just not going to happen.
>
> (sigh) I'm just doing a little experimenting. It has already yielded a
> lot of information that is valuable to me. I understand that neither
> my approach nor probably any information that I obtain is of any
> interest to you and seems to be offensive (otherwise, why would you
> continue to tell me what an idiot I am?). But I am not trying to
> convince you to use my methods. Why do you need to keep telling me
> that I am doing it all wrong? I have heard your perspective every time
> you have made it. I've adopted what I can. Why is that not good
> enough?
>
> >Let go a bit, come at it from a new angle, and see what happens...
>
> Have you considered this advice for yourself?
>
> >even if just to prove everyone wrong.
>
> Projection?

And I have heard your perspective too now numerous times, we both
understand each other... that I don't doubt. What I am trying (so far
in vain) to show you is that it isn't about being "right" or *not*
taking measurements or whatever you want to do to enjoy yourself...
but it is about getting a solid baseline FIRST. As an engineer you
should be able to appreciate that. I am trying to tell you to throw
out the vendor suggestions and put away the instrumentation (just for
now) and *listen* to what we are saying as far as times and temps and
amounts. They are not precise to tenths of a gram because we (and
anyone from recorded history until today) don't need them to be and
even if we did it would always be wrong because of subtle variation
from batch to batch and water type and so many more variables than you
could ever account for. Simply use our "imprecise" numbers as a
baseline so that you at least taste what it *should* taste like, then
have at it with scales, micrometers, mass spectrometers, what have
you... go nuts, have fun in any way you see fit. But right now you are
building a very precise house on no foundation.

THAT is where you are missing what I am trying to say. Many people
here are engineers, scientists, scholars, and more so we *get* you.
What we don't get is how you plan on getting anywhere without a sound
starting point. We're offering that to you to take a run wild with,
just trust us (more than a scale, and more than a vendor). Why do you
think I would even take the time to try yet again to get through to
you if I didn't care? I'm no masochist.

- Dominic

> wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 21:07:58 -0500, "Bluesea"
> > wrote:
>
>>
> wrote in message
. ..
>>> On Thu, 19 Mar 2009 01:20:22 -0500, "Bluesea"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Bluesea" > wrote in message
...
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm confused because you were weighing before.
>>>>
>>>>I'm used to people going from using a teaspoon to a scale to obtain an
>>>>accurate measurement and you're going from the accurate method to the
>>>>inaccurate. Sorry, but it seems like you're going backward for no useful
>>>>reason that I can discern. Please enlighten me.
>>>
>>> I am going to continue using a scale.
>>>
>>> Most vendors provide brewing instructions in volume units and it's
>>> usually 1 tsp/cup. I am measuring to find out how much a tsp weighs.
>>>
>>> As you say, it varies a lot.
>>
>>You still haven't answered my question and I'm not enlightened. Sure,
>>vendors suggest 1 tsp. per cup because there are those who don't know
>>better
>>and who don't have scales. Since you apparently don't fall into that
>>category, please correct me if I'm wrong, what's the point in weighing the
>>amount of tea that a teaspoon holds?
>>
>>It stills strikes me that you're going backwards. Did you just get your
>>scale? Is that why you're weighing the amount a teaspoon holds? I can
>>understand it if you want to see the difference between measuring by
>>volume
>>and by weight if you just got a scale because that's what people do when
>>they transition from one method to another. After a while, though, they
>>get
>>over it and don't go back as you seem to be doing. That's why I'm asking
>>about your motivation. It doesn't serve a purpose that I can see.
>
> It's just data. It serves at least a couple of purposes.
>
> 1. The vendor says to use 1 tsp / cup. Since I want to use weight, I'd
> like to know what a teaspoon of this tea weights. It doesn't take long
> to measure 10-20 tsp into a scale cup. I am going to adjust the amount
> of tea to suit my taste, but this gives me a starting point and a
> reference point.

Again, vendors do that only because most people don't know better and don't
have scales. Anybody who knows anything knows to start with 2 g or 2.25 g
per 6 oz cup. That weight is your starting/reference point, not the teaspoon
because the teaspoon is inaccurate due to type of leaf. If the teaspoon was
accurate, you wouldn't have found the variance that you did.

> 2. Measuring by volume is easier than by weight. I can measure 3-4 tsp
> more quickly than I can measure 9.7 g.

Yes, that's why some people don't like using scales.

> Once I know roughly how strong
> I like the tea, converting back to teaspooons can be useful.

Only for that particular batch of tea, perhaps. Do you smoke? I've found
several smokers who don't have a particularly discerning palate. If you're a
smoker, I suspect it won't matter much how you measure.

> 3. It's just interesting data. What can I say. I'm an engineer. I like
> data and pocket protectors. ;-)

Sorry, you don't sound like an engineer with the way you're doing things.

Whatever. To each his own. Have fun.


--
~~Bluesea~~
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