I'm thinking about writing a little tea database to keep track of what
I buy, where I buy it, and what I like and don't like.

I ran into a little snag. I am not sure how best to categorize the
various teas?

I think I more or less understand the basic "types" (red/black, green,
oolong, white, etc.).

I am not sure about specific teas or varieties. Many vendors sell
generic types like Earl Grey, Gunpowder, Irish Breakfast, etc. I
believe most of these are blends or more than one tea and most vendors
sell more than one type of Earl Grey.

My basic question is how to best categorize each tea so that I am
comparing apples to apples?

My current plan is to have a "Purchases" table. It would have one
entry for each tea I purchase. Some of the fields it would contain
include:

Name of the tea (from the vendor)
Vendor
Product number
Date
Amount
Cost
Type (black, green, etc.)

I would then have a a "Brews" table with one entry for each pot I
brew. It would have fields like:

Date
Tea (link to Purchases table)
Amount of tea
Amount of water
Temperature
Time
Rating
Comments

Is this a good start?

The next step would be to compare simlar teas. Or does it even make
any sense to compare an Earl Grey from different vendors?

This is the best way to prove you dont like tea. Forget the
spreadsheet and let your subconscious do the categorizing. Youll find
for some reason youll like one tea over another. One day youll like a
tea you that you didnt before. Enjoying tea is independent of
determination. We have guys show up preaching the gospel of
differentiation then disappear when they get bored. The mental notes
come from experience. You need to build an internal reference point.
Trust your instinct, forget the database. I go to tea tastings
because they dont cost me anything extra. I have more fun trying to
find one of my teas. For a long time I had an organized cuppard. I
still have one more or less.

Jim

On Sep 19, 8:30 am, Prof Wonmug > wrote:
> I'm thinking about writing a little tea database to keep track of what
> I buy, where I buy it, and what I like and don't like.
>
> I ran into a little snag. I am not sure how best to categorize the
> various teas?
>
> I think I more or less understand the basic "types" (red/black, green,
> oolong, white, etc.).
>
> I am not sure about specific teas or varieties. Many vendors sell
> generic types like Earl Grey, Gunpowder, Irish Breakfast, etc. I
> believe most of these are blends or more than one tea and most vendors
> sell more than one type of Earl Grey.
>
> My basic question is how to best categorize each tea so that I am
> comparing apples to apples?
>
> My current plan is to have a "Purchases" table. It would have one
> entry for each tea I purchase. Some of the fields it would contain
> include:
>
> Name of the tea (from the vendor)
> Vendor
> Product number
> Date
> Amount
> Cost
> Type (black, green, etc.)
>
> I would then have a a "Brews" table with one entry for each pot I
> brew. It would have fields like:
>
> Date
> Tea (link to Purchases table)
> Amount of tea
> Amount of water
> Temperature
> Time
> Rating
> Comments
>
> Is this a good start?
>
> The next step would be to compare simlar teas. Or does it even make
> any sense to compare an Earl Grey from different vendors?

On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:05:55 -0700 (PDT), Space Cowboy
> wrote:

>This is the best way to prove you dont like tea.

Could you be any more arrogant? Stupid question. Of course not or you
would be already, right?

>Forget the
>spreadsheet and let your subconscious do the categorizing.

Oooohhh. Cool. Should I get some crystals and new age muzak?

>Youll find
>for some reason youll like one tea over another. One day youll like a
>tea you that you didnt before.

>Enjoying tea is independent of
>determination.

Does that even mean anything to normal people?

>We have guys show up preaching the gospel of
>differentiation then disappear when they get bored.

Maybe they get tired of being told that what they think they want in
invalid.

>The mental notes
>come from experience. You need to build an internal reference point.
>Trust your instinct, forget the database.

Ohhmmm.

>I go to tea tastings
>because they dont cost me anything extra.

So you're an asshole and your cheap.

>I have more fun trying to
>find one of my teas. For a long time I had an organized cuppard. I
>still have one more or less.

But you have a complete fog in your head.

Oh, and learn to spell, dipshit.

>Jim

OK, Jimmy. Happy navel gazing. Try not to get any on you.

I'm a bit of an anal-retentive type who loves to categorize things
too, and I've tried to do this sort of tea database from time to
time. I'm so A-R that it's probably the reason I avoid tea blends
(with a few exceptions). It's a fun exercise and very satisfying.

I also empathize with the "don't categorize to death what should be a
near-spiritual experience." If you pay too much attention to putting
something in a niche, you're also limiting what you'll experience from
the tea. You'll taste what you are expecting to taste and be less
open to the unexpected or to subtle nuances. The vendor with the
highest quality tea I've ever tasted in fact refuses to name his teas
-- he'll just present us with a tasting of a half-dozen greener
oolongs, never saying if it's a ti kuan yin varietal or something
different. He wants the taste to speak for itself. I understand this
was a common approach to tea sales in China before Western customers
demanded fancy names and concrete classifications.

If you want to go ahead with the tea classifications, consider doing
type (green, white, red (black), yellow, aged [pu-erh, liu-an, etc],
tisanes, and "other" or "flavored") and also doing shape (bags,
fannings, CTC, twisted, rolled, display, cake). You could use the
official classifications that are most useful for non-Chinese teas
(STGFOP and such) if you want. And you should DEFINITELY keep entries
for different vendor's varieties of the same tea, or even different
grades of the same tea from the same vendor -- you'll find huge
variation!

Have fun!
-Charles

In article >,
Iggy > wrote:
>I'm a bit of an anal-retentive type who loves to categorize things
>too, and I've tried to do this sort of tea database from time to
>time. I'm so A-R that it's probably the reason I avoid tea blends
>(with a few exceptions). It's a fun exercise and very satisfying.

Get the Upton's catalogue. Look at how THEY categorize things.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 12:58:15 -0700 (PDT), Iggy
> wrote:

>I'm a bit of an anal-retentive type who loves to categorize things
>too, and I've tried to do this sort of tea database from time to
>time. I'm so A-R that it's probably the reason I avoid tea blends
>(with a few exceptions). It's a fun exercise and very satisfying.

I'm glad I'm not the only one ;-)

>I also empathize with the "don't categorize to death what should be a
>near-spiritual experience." If you pay too much attention to putting
>something in a niche, you're also limiting what you'll experience from
>the tea. You'll taste what you are expecting to taste and be less
>open to the unexpected or to subtle nuances.

I try to stay balanced.

I've read through the archives and several people have made good
suggestions.

My plan is to record the brewing parameters for each pot with a rating
plus comments. One program option will be "surprise me". The program
will choose a tea from whatever I have available and, based on past
pots and ratings, suggest a set of brewing parameters.

I have learned from following this group to try very different
parameters from what I might try on my own. It might choose a lot of
leaf and a very short steep time or less leaf and longer steep at a
lower temperature.

The program would keep track of what I like and try to calculate
ranges of parameters that are the sweet spot for each tea.

>The vendor with the
>highest quality tea I've ever tasted in fact refuses to name his teas
>-- he'll just present us with a tasting of a half-dozen greener
>oolongs, never saying if it's a ti kuan yin varietal or something
>different. He wants the taste to speak for itself. I understand this
>was a common approach to tea sales in China before Western customers
>demanded fancy names and concrete classifications.

I would not buy from this vendor. I find this arrogant. I have no
problem with him offering this as an option, but when he gets to
refusing information, he has forgotten who the customer is. ;-)

>If you want to go ahead with the tea classifications, consider doing
>type (green, white, red (black), yellow, aged [pu-erh, liu-an, etc],
>tisanes, and "other" or "flavored") and also doing shape (bags,
>fannings, CTC, twisted, rolled, display, cake). You could use the
>official classifications that are most useful for non-Chinese teas
>(STGFOP and such) if you want. And you should DEFINITELY keep entries
>for different vendor's varieties of the same tea, or even different
>grades of the same tea from the same vendor -- you'll find huge
>variation!
>
>Have fun!
>-Charles

Thanks

On 21 Sep 2009 16:11:59 -0400, (Scott Dorsey) wrote:

>In article >,
>Iggy > wrote:
>>I'm a bit of an anal-retentive type who loves to categorize things
>>too, and I've tried to do this sort of tea database from time to
>>time. I'm so A-R that it's probably the reason I avoid tea blends
>>(with a few exceptions). It's a fun exercise and very satisfying.
>
>Get the Upton's catalogue. Look at how THEY categorize things.
>--scott

OK, thanks

I thought I was speaking to a Prof. Sorry for the erudiction. Add
all the columns you want to a spreadsheet or the fields to a database
not ONE will tell you what the next tea will taste like. If you are
worried how the current tea taste compared to another you need a sharp
pencil with a big eraser not a computer. Learn the grammar difference
between you're and your. You and Prof WonMug use the same News Server
EasyNews and Client Forte. You both should consider Google Groups.
Its free. I recommended one additional field for you, location.

Jim

PS If you meet me on the road buy you can buy me a cup of coffee at
Starbucks. I wouldnt expect anything more.

On Sep 21, 12:22 pm, Lurfys Maw > wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:05:55 -0700 (PDT), Space Cowboy
>
> > wrote:
> >This is the best way to prove you dont like tea.
>
> Could you be any more arrogant? Stupid question. Of course not or you
> would be already, right?
>
> >Forget the
> >spreadsheet and let your subconscious do the categorizing.
>
> Oooohhh. Cool. Should I get some crystals and new age muzak?
>
> >Youll find
> >for some reason youll like one tea over another. One day youll like a
> >tea you that you didnt before.
> >Enjoying tea is independent of
> >determination.
>
> Does that even mean anything to normal people?
>
> >We have guys show up preaching the gospel of
> >differentiation then disappear when they get bored.
>
> Maybe they get tired of being told that what they think they want in
> invalid.
>
> >The mental notes
> >come from experience. You need to build an internal reference point.
> >Trust your instinct, forget the database.
>
> Ohhmmm.
>
> >I go to tea tastings
> >because they dont cost me anything extra.
>
> So you're an asshole and your cheap.
>
> >I have more fun trying to
> >find one of my teas. For a long time I had an organized cuppard. I
> >still have one more or less.
>
> But you have a complete fog in your head.
>
> Oh, and learn to spell, dipshit.
>
> >Jim
>
> OK, Jimmy. Happy navel gazing. Try not to get any on you.

> >The vendor with the
> >highest quality tea I've ever tasted in fact refuses to name his teas
> >-- he'll just present us with a tasting of a half-dozen greener
> >oolongs, never saying if it's a ti kuan yin varietal or something
> >different. *He wants the taste to speak for itself. *I understand this
> >was a common approach to tea sales in China before Western customers
> >demanded fancy names and concrete classifications.
>
> I would not buy from this vendor. I find this arrogant. I have no
> problem with him offering this as an option, but when he gets to
> refusing information, he has forgotten who the customer is. ;-)
>


Actually, Stephen (the proprietor of Spring Cottage Tea House in
Richmond B.C.) is anything but arrogant. It's not really a case of
withholding information, since most of the teas in question are from
small batches on tiny farms (including a farm in Fujian owned by his
wife's parents, which produces the most amazing silver needle) and his
stock thus varies constantly. For him it's just more accurate to say
"here's a really good green oolong to try" than to slap an arbitrary
marketing title on it like "Green Dragon Spring #3" that the farmer
would never have called it.

When I see web sites or catalogs with a dozen types of long chings
with labels like "Imperial Dragon Well", "Superior Dragon Well", "Fine
Grade Dragon Well" and "Dragon Well #1", they don't mean much to me --
I'd rather just taste them all and decide for myself, which is exactly
the experience Stephen provides for me.

Iggy > writes:

> > >The vendor with the
> > >highest quality tea I've ever tasted in fact refuses to name his teas
> > >-- he'll just present us with a tasting of a half-dozen greener
> > >oolongs, never saying if it's a ti kuan yin varietal or something
> > >different. *He wants the taste to speak for itself. *I understand this
> > >was a common approach to tea sales in China before Western customers
> > >demanded fancy names and concrete classifications.
> >
> > I would not buy from this vendor. I find this arrogant. I have no
> > problem with him offering this as an option, but when he gets to
> > refusing information, he has forgotten who the customer is. ;-)
> >
>
>
> Actually, Stephen (the proprietor of Spring Cottage Tea House in
> Richmond B.C.) is anything but arrogant.

I completely agree!

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Ive been to enough puer tastings this year to say I dont think it
absolutely necessary to know the pedigree of the shu or sheng which
includes aging. The last time I was in SF Chinatown I got teas from
about ten different jars at an apothecary. I didnt bother noting the
labels. I was able to sort them out at home using my Chinese tea book
I got on the trip and my own stock. I also really dont need to know
the Darjeeling and Assam estates my local tea shoppe sells. However I
wouldnt be happy to see a vendor sell an expensive white tea that
turned out to be SowMee. Just be aware if you buy Oriental Beauty
from Taiwan it could be anybodys bug eaten crop and not the original
spittle Darjeeling like version favored by one Queen of England.

Jim

On Sep 22, 3:16 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Iggy > writes:
> > > >The vendor with the
> > > >highest quality tea I've ever tasted in fact refuses to name his teas
> > > >-- he'll just present us with a tasting of a half-dozen greener
> > > >oolongs, never saying if it's a ti kuan yin varietal or something
> > > >different. He wants the taste to speak for itself. I understand this
> > > >was a common approach to tea sales in China before Western customers
> > > >demanded fancy names and concrete classifications.
>
> > > I would not buy from this vendor. I find this arrogant. I have no
> > > problem with him offering this as an option, but when he gets to
> > > refusing information, he has forgotten who the customer is. ;-)
>
> > Actually, Stephen (the proprietor of Spring Cottage Tea House in
> > Richmond B.C.) is anything but arrogant.
>
> I completely agree!
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:05:55 -0700 (PDT), Space Cowboy
> wrote:

>This is the best way to prove you dont like tea.

Really? It sounds like you are saying that my way is invalid.

>Forget the
>spreadsheet and let your subconscious do the categorizing.

I accept that this is what works for you. It doesn't work very well
for me. I do better with hard data. Is it OK if we have different
styles?

>Youll find
>for some reason youll like one tea over another.

And part of the enjoyment for me is trying to tease out what those
reasons might be.

>One day youll like a
>tea you that you didnt before.

Sure. I understand that there might not be any absolute answers and
that they might change over time, but the exercise still has value for
me.

>Enjoying tea is independent of
>determination.

I accept that this is how you see it and what works for you. Can you
accept that more of an engineering approach works better for me?

I'm actually willing to try your way, especially if I am not put down
for mine or told that it's invalid. Are you willing to try mine?

>We have guys show up preaching the gospel of
>differentiation then disappear when they get bored.

Was I preaching? I intended to ask some questions. I feel like I got
preached at. Projection?

>The mental notes
>come from experience. You need to build an internal reference point.

This is how I do that.

>Trust your instinct, forget the database.

Goodness. Did you have a bad experience as a child with an abusive
database?

>I go to tea tastings
>because they dont cost me anything extra. I have more fun trying to
>find one of my teas. For a long time I had an organized cuppard. I
>still have one more or less.
>
>Jim

On Sep 25, 1:09*pm, Prof Wonmug > wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:05:55 -0700 (PDT), Space Cowboy
>
> > wrote:
> >This is the best way to prove you dont like tea.
>
> Really? It sounds like you are saying that my way is invalid.
>
> >Forget the
> >spreadsheet and let your subconscious do the categorizing.
>
> I accept that this is what works for you. It doesn't work very well
> for me. I do better with hard data. Is it OK if we have different
> styles?
>
> >Youll find
> >for some reason youll like one tea over another. *
>
> And part of the enjoyment for me is trying to tease out what those
> reasons might be.
>
> >One day youll like a
> >tea you that you didnt before.
>
> Sure. I understand that there might not be any absolute answers and
> that they might change over time, but the exercise still has value for
> me.
>
> >Enjoying tea is independent of
> >determination.
>
> I accept that this is how you see it and what works for you. Can you
> accept that more of an engineering approach works better for me?
>
> I'm actually willing to try your way, especially if I am not put down
> for mine or told that it's invalid. Are you willing to try mine?
>
> >We have guys show up preaching the gospel of
> >differentiation then disappear when they get bored.
>
> Was I preaching? I intended to ask some questions. I feel like I got
> preached at. Projection?
>
> >The mental notes
> >come from experience. *You need to build an internal reference point.
>
> This is how I do that.
>
> >Trust your instinct, forget the database. *
>
> Goodness. Did you have a bad experience as a child with an abusive
> database?
>
> >I go to tea tastings
> >because they dont cost me anything extra. *I have more fun trying to
> >find one of my teas. * For a long time I had an organized cuppard. *I
> >still have one more or less.
>
> >Jim

Look, we all get your concept... tons of folks have made the exact
same claims and comments. It never works. It's fundamentally not how
tea works, and never has in it's entire history. You are not some new
exception that will crack the code. No one here is ****ing in your
cornflakes, it's just reality... and one we've all seen and been told
we are wrong about and that we'll surely be shown... it hasn't
happened.

There are too many variables in tea to do what you claim. To try to
claim otherwise is foolish. It isn't science, it isn't repeatable.
Each batch of tea is different, each growing season is too, harvest
days even are different. The water, the heating method and vessel and
cup, the list goes on and on. Best of luck in your endeavors, no one
here is interested in this approach (AFAIK) so you won't get much
guidance or help, but if it is a personal need then scratch it and
enjoy it. Just understand we aren't really interested in your results
or work. Most of us here enjoy tea. No more, no less.

- Dominic

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:54:01 -0700 (PDT), "Dominic T."
> wrote:

>On Sep 25, 1:09*pm, Prof Wonmug > wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:05:55 -0700 (PDT), Space Cowboy
>>
>> > wrote:
>> >This is the best way to prove you dont like tea.
>>
>> Really? It sounds like you are saying that my way is invalid.
>>
>> >Forget the
>> >spreadsheet and let your subconscious do the categorizing.
>>
>> I accept that this is what works for you. It doesn't work very well
>> for me. I do better with hard data. Is it OK if we have different
>> styles?
>>
>> >Youll find
>> >for some reason youll like one tea over another. *
>>
>> And part of the enjoyment for me is trying to tease out what those
>> reasons might be.
>>
>> >One day youll like a
>> >tea you that you didnt before.
>>
>> Sure. I understand that there might not be any absolute answers and
>> that they might change over time, but the exercise still has value for
>> me.
>>
>> >Enjoying tea is independent of
>> >determination.
>>
>> I accept that this is how you see it and what works for you. Can you
>> accept that more of an engineering approach works better for me?
>>
>> I'm actually willing to try your way, especially if I am not put down
>> for mine or told that it's invalid. Are you willing to try mine?
>>
>> >We have guys show up preaching the gospel of
>> >differentiation then disappear when they get bored.
>>
>> Was I preaching? I intended to ask some questions. I feel like I got
>> preached at. Projection?
>>
>> >The mental notes
>> >come from experience. *You need to build an internal reference point.
>>
>> This is how I do that.
>>
>> >Trust your instinct, forget the database. *
>>
>> Goodness. Did you have a bad experience as a child with an abusive
>> database?
>>
>> >I go to tea tastings
>> >because they dont cost me anything extra. *I have more fun trying to
>> >find one of my teas. * For a long time I had an organized cuppard. *I
>> >still have one more or less.
>>
>> >Jim
>
>Look, we all get your concept... tons of folks have made the exact
>same claims and comments. It never works. It's fundamentally not how
>tea works, and never has in it's entire history. You are not some new
>exception that will crack the code.

Wow. What is it about a simple suggestion to collect data that is so
upsetting to you?

>No one here is ****ing in your
>cornflakes,

What do you call it? Do you eve read your own posts?

>it's just reality...
>and one we've all seen and been told
>we are wrong about and that we'll surely be shown... it hasn't
>happened.

Please tell me where I said that anyone was wrong about anything? I
merely asked a question about how go about collecting data. You afre
the one telling me that I am wrong and then blaming me. What is so
threatening to you about collecting data?

>There are too many variables in tea to do what you claim. To try to
>claim otherwise is foolish.

And now the name-calling...

>It isn't science, it isn't repeatable.
>Each batch of tea is different, each growing season is too, harvest
>days even are different. The water, the heating method and vessel and
>cup, the list goes on and on.

Well, there are commercial labs all over the world that do just that.
Now, I'm not comparing myself to them. I'm just making the point that
collecting data is never futile. At the very least, it will show that
the problem is more complex that thought.

>Best of luck in your endeavors, no one
>here is interested in this approach (AFAIK)

Really. I thought you said that "tons of folks have made the exact
same claims and comments...". I don't know how many people are in a
ton, but cetainly more than zero. ;-)

>so you won't get much
>guidance or help,

Certainly not from you or Space Cowboy.

>but if it is a personal need then scratch it and
>enjoy it. Just understand we aren't really interested in your results
>or work. Most of us here enjoy tea. No more, no less.

I love it that you speak for everyone. Who annointed you?

On Sep 26, 7:40*pm, Prof Wonmug > wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:54:01 -0700 (PDT), "Dominic T."
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Sep 25, 1:09*pm, Prof Wonmug > wrote:
> >> On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 14:05:55 -0700 (PDT), Space Cowboy
>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >This is the best way to prove you dont like tea.
>
> >> Really? It sounds like you are saying that my way is invalid.
>
> >> >Forget the
> >> >spreadsheet and let your subconscious do the categorizing.
>
> >> I accept that this is what works for you. It doesn't work very well
> >> for me. I do better with hard data. Is it OK if we have different
> >> styles?
>
> >> >Youll find
> >> >for some reason youll like one tea over another. *
>
> >> And part of the enjoyment for me is trying to tease out what those
> >> reasons might be.
>
> >> >One day youll like a
> >> >tea you that you didnt before.
>
> >> Sure. I understand that there might not be any absolute answers and
> >> that they might change over time, but the exercise still has value for
> >> me.
>
> >> >Enjoying tea is independent of
> >> >determination.
>
> >> I accept that this is how you see it and what works for you. Can you
> >> accept that more of an engineering approach works better for me?
>
> >> I'm actually willing to try your way, especially if I am not put down
> >> for mine or told that it's invalid. Are you willing to try mine?
>
> >> >We have guys show up preaching the gospel of
> >> >differentiation then disappear when they get bored.
>
> >> Was I preaching? I intended to ask some questions. I feel like I got
> >> preached at. Projection?
>
> >> >The mental notes
> >> >come from experience. *You need to build an internal reference point.