I saw Children of Huang Shi over the weekend on the premium movie
channels. It is set in China during the Rape of Nanking in 1937.
During one scene one of the Chinese characters is drinking tea from a
Gaiwan. Not knowing any more I initially thought this an anachronism
even though I dont remember seeing Gaiwans in the stores before mid
90s. The foreigners still drink their coffee even in Inner Mongolia.
Does anyone know the two Chinese characters used for Hogg in the
movie.

Jim

PS I seem to remember the use of a Gaiwan in one of Jackie Chans
period movies.

I saw a movie called "love is a many splendored thing"
There were gaiwans all over the table where they were having dinner in
the parents home. I think it may be a 50's movie.
Jenn

Space Cowboy > writes:

> I saw Children of Huang Shi over the weekend on the premium movie
> channels. It is set in China during the Rape of Nanking in 1937.
> During one scene one of the Chinese characters is drinking tea from a
> Gaiwan. Not knowing any more I initially thought this an anachronism
> even though I dont remember seeing Gaiwans in the stores before mid
> 90s. The foreigners still drink their coffee even in Inner Mongolia.
> Does anyone know the two Chinese characters used for Hogg in the
> movie.
>
> Jim
>
> PS I seem to remember the use of a Gaiwan in one of Jackie Chans
> period movies.

Sorry, I've read your post a few times and still am not completely
sure what you're saying. Do you think the gaiwan wasn't invented
until, say, some time in the twentieth century?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

I dont remember Gaiwans in any movie period piece besides the 20th
century. I know pots are collectables at least back to the 19th
century. I know Gaiwans are porcelain but I dont know of any collector
market. I still think along the lines of a novelty export item. I
dont remember seeing them in Chinatown till the nineties. I would
have bought one if I saw them sooner since the sixties. I know
teaware in China is regional.

Jim

On Oct 12, 4:18 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Space Cowboy > writes:
....I am not a movie critic...
> > During one scene one of the Chinese characters is drinking tea from a
> > Gaiwan. Not knowing any more I initially thought this an anachronism
> > even though I dont remember seeing Gaiwans in the stores before mid
> > 90s.
>
> > PS I seem to remember the use of a Gaiwan in one of Jackie Chans
> > period movies.
>
> Sorry, I've read your post a few times and still am not completely
> sure what you're saying. Do you think the gaiwan wasn't invented
> until, say, some time in the twentieth century?
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

Space Cowboy > writes:
>
> On Oct 12, 4:18 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > Space Cowboy > writes:
> ...I am not a movie critic...
> > > During one scene one of the Chinese characters is drinking tea from a
> > > Gaiwan. Not knowing any more I initially thought this an anachronism
> > > even though I dont remember seeing Gaiwans in the stores before mid
> > > 90s.
> >
> > > PS I seem to remember the use of a Gaiwan in one of Jackie Chans
> > > period movies.
> >
> > Sorry, I've read your post a few times and still am not completely
> > sure what you're saying. Do you think the gaiwan wasn't invented
> > until, say, some time in the twentieth century?
>
> I dont remember Gaiwans in any movie period piece besides the 20th
> century. I know pots are collectables at least back to the 19th
> century. I know Gaiwans are porcelain but I dont know of any collector
> market. I still think along the lines of a novelty export item. I
> dont remember seeing them in Chinatown till the nineties. I would
> have bought one if I saw them sooner since the sixties.

Wikipedia's gaiwan article says they date to the Ming dynasty. I'm
aware that Wikipedia isn't an infallible source of information, but
neither is Denver's Chinatown.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

On Oct 13, 8:48*am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> I dont remember Gaiwans in any movie period piece besides the 20th
> century. *I know pots are collectables at least back to the 19th
> century. I know Gaiwans are porcelain but I dont know of any collector
> market. *I still think along the lines of a novelty export item. *I
> dont remember seeing them in Chinatown till the nineties. *I would
> have bought one if I saw them sooner since the sixties. *I know
> teaware in China is regional.
>
> Jim
>
> On Oct 12, 4:18 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:> Space Cowboy > writes:
>
> ...I am not a movie critic...
>
> > > During one scene one of the Chinese characters is drinking tea from a
> > > Gaiwan. *Not knowing any more I initially thought this an anachronism
> > > even though I dont remember seeing Gaiwans in the stores before mid
> > > 90s.
>
> > > PS *I seem to remember the use of a Gaiwan in one of Jackie Chans
> > > period movies.
>
> > Sorry, I've read your post a few times and still am not completely
> > sure what you're saying. *Do you think the gaiwan wasn't invented
> > until, say, some time in the twentieth century?
>
> > /Lew
> > ---
> > Lew Perin /

I was similarly confused by the initial post, but I get what you're
saying. I think you'd have to be an expert in Chinese cinema to really
know what the first film was... outside of U.S. cinema. I'd disagree
that there isn't a collector market though, I have seen a number of
very old, and even more expensive gaiwans. I was at an exhibition of
some modern artisans of chawans (matcha bowls) and the antique dealer
also had some info on gaiwans we talked about which was amazing. There
were many others besides just porcelain.

- Dominic

Id be interested in the earliest Gaiwan perse as we know it today. I
still think a 20th century creation. I know chawan probably date Ming
which is different. I didnt see anything in SF Chinatown in the
seventies decade. I can vouch for Denver since the early eighties.

Jim

On Oct 13, 7:30 am, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> Space Cowboy > writes:
>
> > On Oct 12, 4:18 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
> > > Do you think the gaiwan wasn't invented
> > > until, say, some time in the twentieth century?
>
> > I dont remember seeing them in Chinatown till the nineties. I would
> > have bought one if I saw them sooner since the sixties.
>
> Wikipedia's gaiwan article says they date to the Ming dynasty. I'm
> aware that Wikipedia isn't an infallible source of information, but
> neither is Denver's Chinatown.
>
> /Lew
> ---
> Lew Perin /

We have a couple of Chinese antique dealers in town. Ill make a note
to find out more about Gaiwans there. It bugs me I think the Gaiwan
looks like a modern form.

Jim

On Oct 13, 8:14 am, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> On Oct 13, 8:48 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> > I dont remember Gaiwans in any movie period piece besides the 20th
> > century.
>
> > On Oct 12, 4:18 pm, Lewis Perin > wrote:
>
> > > Sorry, I've read your post a few times and still am not completely
> > > sure what you're saying. Do you think the gaiwan wasn't invented
> > > until, say, some time in the twentieth century?
>
> > > /Lew
> > > ---
> > > Lew Perin /
>
> I was similarly confused by the initial post, but I get what you're
> saying. I think you'd have to be an expert in Chinese cinema to really
> know what the first film was... outside of U.S. cinema. I'd disagree
> that there isn't a collector market though, I have seen a number of
> very old, and even more expensive gaiwans. I was at an exhibition of
> some modern artisans of chawans (matcha bowls) and the antique dealer
> also had some info on gaiwans we talked about which was amazing. There
> were many others besides just porcelain.
>
> - Dominic

On Oct 13, 10:52*am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> We have a couple of Chinese antique dealers in town. *Ill make a note
> to find out more about Gaiwans there. *It bugs me I think the Gaiwan
> looks like a modern form.
>
> Jim

The dates on some of the ones the woman who owns the gallery showed me
were very old, and she is Chinese and her shop and reputation are
above and beyond. She managed to bring together a show of some top
Japanese tea bowl makers so I had no reason to doubt her. Some were
jade, not glazed or jade-like but actual jade and some celadon/
porcelain. The one jade gaiwan was being sold for almost $2000 USD
(converted) and there were three or four in the $1000 range with a
bunch in the $100-400 range. There had been one really beautiful one
with a full history that was going for about $125 which I almost
bought and now kick myself that I didn't.

- Dominic

On 2009-10-13, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> I dont remember Gaiwans in any movie period piece besides the 20th
> century.

If the period is "mythic past", they can be found in "Crouching Tiger,
Hidden Dragon".

N.

On Oct 13, 10:40*am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> Id be interested in the earliest Gaiwan perse as we know it today. *I
> still think a 20th century creation. *I know chawan probably date Ming
> which is different. *I didnt see anything in SF Chinatown in the
> seventies decade. *I can vouch for Denver since the early eighties.
>
> Jim

I'm currently looking into it because my curiosity is piqued, and I
have found a couple references to gaiwans/guywans having "been used in
China since 1350" in the three piece cup/saucer/lid configuration. I
have an email out to two friends and the owner of that antique shop,
so if/when I hear anything back in addition I'll update.

- Dominic

Another conundrum why wasnt the gaiwan exported along with teapots to
Europe since 1600s. It seems the gaiwan was established as a brewing
vessel in teahouses and palaces by the Qing dynasty. My guess late
Qing. I dont think we will see any earlier that 1850s as an antique.
I think any Chinese household will have an ancestor teapot. Im not
sure about gaiwan.

Jim

On Oct 13, 1:13 pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> On Oct 13, 10:40 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
>
> > Id be interested in the earliest Gaiwan perse as we know it today. I
> > still think a 20th century creation. I know chawan probably date Ming
> > which is different. I didnt see anything in SF Chinatown in the
> > seventies decade. I can vouch for Denver since the early eighties.
>
> > Jim
>
> I'm currently looking into it because my curiosity is piqued, and I
> have found a couple references to gaiwans/guywans having "been used in
> China since 1350" in the three piece cup/saucer/lid configuration. I
> have an email out to two friends and the owner of that antique shop,
> so if/when I hear anything back in addition I'll update.
>
> - Dominic

On Oct 13, 6:29*pm, Space Cowboy > wrote:
> Another conundrum why wasnt the gaiwan exported along with teapots to
> Europe since 1600s. *It seems the gaiwan was established as a brewing
> vessel in teahouses and palaces by the Qing dynasty. *My guess late
> Qing. *I dont think we will see any earlier that 1850s as an antique.
> I think any Chinese household will have an ancestor teapot. *Im not
> sure about gaiwan.
>
> Jim
>
> On Oct 13, 1:13 pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 13, 10:40 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
>
> > > Id be interested in the earliest Gaiwan perse as we know it today. *I
> > > still think a 20th century creation. *I know chawan probably date Ming
> > > which is different. *I didnt see anything in SF Chinatown in the
> > > seventies decade. *I can vouch for Denver since the early eighties.
>
> > > Jim
>
> > I'm currently looking into it because my curiosity is piqued, and I
> > have found a couple references to gaiwans/guywans having "been used in
> > China since 1350" in the three piece cup/saucer/lid configuration. I
> > have an email out to two friends and the owner of that antique shop,
> > so if/when I hear anything back in addition I'll update.
>
> > - Dominic

I don't think they were as highly valued at the time, possibly, as the
teapot. It was more of a personal item without any real pomp or
circumstance. All of the ones I had seen (just in photo form) were
simply plain and basic, only the jade one was decorative and probably
had more importance. Just like exporting chopsticks or any other
similar cultural-specific utilitarian item, none of those really
"caught on" or mattered much in America (and I assume Europe) outside
of novelty much before the same time-frame as Gaiwans began showing
up. I wish I could remember the exact dates from that night but I
can't, I want to say that one was early 1800s and many were mid-late
1800s and early 1900s (the latest was from the 80s I do remember that)
for the less expensive ones.

I still never see chawan in America to this day, I can count on one
hand the total number I have found at shops for sale still to this
day. I don't think it has to do with their age, history, or value,
just that it is not a popular item in modern day America outside of
very specific places.

- Dominic

On Oct 13, 7:32*pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
> On Oct 13, 6:29*pm, Space Cowboy > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Another conundrum why wasnt the gaiwan exported along with teapots to
> > Europe since 1600s. *It seems the gaiwan was established as a brewing
> > vessel in teahouses and palaces by the Qing dynasty. *My guess late
> > Qing. *I dont think we will see any earlier that 1850s as an antique.
> > I think any Chinese household will have an ancestor teapot. *Im not
> > sure about gaiwan.
>
> > Jim
>
> > On Oct 13, 1:13 pm, "Dominic T." > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 13, 10:40 am, Space Cowboy > wrote:
>
> > > > Id be interested in the earliest Gaiwan perse as we know it today. *I
> > > > still think a 20th century creation. *I know chawan probably date Ming
> > > > which is different. *I didnt see anything in SF Chinatown in the
> > > > seventies decade. *I can vouch for Denver since the early eighties.
>
> > > > Jim
>
> > > I'm currently looking into it because my curiosity is piqued, and I
> > > have found a couple references to gaiwans/guywans having "been used in
> > > China since 1350" in the three piece cup/saucer/lid configuration. I
> > > have an email out to two friends and the owner of that antique shop,
> > > so if/when I hear anything back in addition I'll update.
>
> > > - Dominic
>
> I don't think they were as highly valued at the time, possibly, as the
> teapot. It was more of a personal item without any real pomp or
> circumstance. All of the ones I had seen (just in photo form) were
> simply plain and basic, only the jade one was decorative and probably
> had more importance. Just like exporting chopsticks or any other
> similar cultural-specific utilitarian item, none of those really
> "caught on" or mattered much in America (and I assume Europe) outside
> of novelty much before the same time-frame as Gaiwans began showing
> up. I wish I could remember the exact dates from that night but I
> can't, I want to say that one was early 1800s and many were mid-late
> 1800s and early 1900s (the latest was from the 80s I do remember that)
> for the less expensive ones.
>
> I still never see chawan in America to this day, I can count on one
> hand the total number I have found at shops for sale still to this
> day. I don't think it has to do with their age, history, or value,
> just that it is not a popular item in modern day America outside of
> very specific places.
>
> - Dominic

One friend directed me to this, which does indeed mirror the shape of
many of the antique ones I had seen: http://www.imperialtea.com/Ming-Style-Gaiwans-P712.aspx
It's actually one of the things that put me off about them, because I
wasn't crazy about the shape. I'd imagine it works fine, but I kind of
like the wider/flatter style.

- Dominic

"Dominic T." > writes:

> [...old-style gaiwans...]
> One friend directed me to this, which does indeed mirror the shape of
> many of the antique ones I had seen: http://www.imperialtea.com/Ming-Style-Gaiwans-P712.aspx
> It's actually one of the things that put me off about them, because I
> wasn't crazy about the shape. I'd imagine it works fine, but I kind of
> like the wider/flatter style.

I've used gaiwans of this shape, and I don't think they work as well
as flared ones. In my experience, you're much less likely to burn
your fingers with a modern gaiwan.

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html

Gaiwans do date to the Ming Dynasty. But as times changed in ancient
China, so did fashion, and tea customs. Then, tea ware styles and
types also changed. This is true even today. Chapan manufacturers for
example, change models every year.

The problem with Chinese movies though, is that unless the movie is
specifically about tea, then they will go with any type of tea
utensils and place it in the wrong time period. You will see gaiwans
or even Zisha teapots used in the Tang dynasty, for example. Might be
creative, but historically inaccurate. So when it comes to tea customs
in movies, don't believe everything you see.

Im starting to think any period piece with a gaiwan is an
anachronism. I dont see any internet evidence of its popularity
besides teahouse and palaces during the Qing dynasty. If it was that
popular it would have been exported with teaware like pots and cups.
I dont think it showed up in the West till sometime after the Nixon/
Mao 72 meeting only then as a resurrection of chinese past. I would
look to Hong Kong and Tawian antiques if it was anything more than a
regional custom.

Jim

On Oct 14, 4:09 pm, niisonge > wrote:
> Gaiwans do date to the Ming Dynasty. But as times changed in ancient
> China, so did fashion, and tea customs. Then, tea ware styles and
> types also changed. This is true even today. Chapan manufacturers for
> example, change models every year.
>
> The problem with Chinese movies though, is that unless the movie is
> specifically about tea, then they will go with any type of tea
> utensils and place it in the wrong time period. You will see gaiwans
> or even Zisha teapots used in the Tang dynasty, for example. Might be
> creative, but historically inaccurate. So when it comes to tea customs
> in movies, don't believe everything you see.

A few thoughts:

I was struck by the use of a gaiwan by Jet Li in the movie
"Fearless" (he quaffs some tea directly from it in between bouts in
the village square) set in the mid-to-late 19th century. A good
number of scenes in that film take place in incredible multi-storied
tea houses that I would love to build a replica of in the US.

If you want to see interesting anachronisms in tea equipment/
methodology try last year's Hong Kong release "Tea Fight", a martial-
arts tea-brewing film if you can imagine such a thing. It features
tea brewing competitions between competing clans in both the Song
dynasty and modern day, but the contestants use Tang dynasty-style
trough-and-disc tea grinders as well as Song and Ming equipage. Very
odd.

Regarding the comment about Yixing pots not being around in the Tang
dynasty, that's true to some degree. Per the book "Yixing Pottery:
The World of Chinese Tea Culture" (a nice guide to Yixing history and
traditional pot styles), Yixing was producing Celadon and clay pottery
in quantity as early as the 11th century BC. They show archeological
examples of true zisha Yixing tea pots that date to the Northern Song
Dynasty, just after the fall of the Tang.

An interesting discussion!
Charles

Iggy > writes:

> A few thoughts:
>
> I was struck by the use of a gaiwan by Jet Li in the movie
> "Fearless" (he quaffs some tea directly from it in between bouts in
> the village square) set in the mid-to-late 19th century.

I hate to ask this, but could Li with teaware really compare to Buster
Keaton with a coffee cup and saucer in _College_?

/Lew
---
Lew Perin /
http://www.panix.com/~perin/babelcarp.html